There has been a recent rise in discussion about the topic of what the future of mmorpg's might hold. Mainly this discussion has focused on the console vs. desktop debate. Let's break this discussion down to the facts and try to keep bias out of it for the most part.
I'm sure the big name companies that are developing mmos for consoles have done focus studies to see if the market would support such a move. However, and I think Sony has proven this more than any other, just because a company has a bit of evidence, a big dollar sign in mind and too much ambition without enough real thought on the subject their ideas are bound to fail. I honestly don't believe that these big name companies have done enough research into the market. My suspicion is that they are responding to a growing market (the mmorpg market) and trying to steer it into a cheaper medium for them to develop.
The simple fact is game companies are only trying to increase profits and IF they succeed it has the potential to generate a lot more bang for their buck. It's not unprecedented that a big company has gotten too ambitious in the sake of increased profits (don't ask me for examples, just google it or something if you don't believe me). The fact that so many developers are pushing for console mmos doesn't mean anything other than the big wigs are going to try to force a market move.
As far as Funcom goes, their own website gives evidence that the 360 version of AoC is -not- going to be released in may. In fact, the chances are they're going to have to take an entire extra year on it to port it to the 360. What does this imply? Well, it could be as innocent as waiting to see how the game fairs for a fiscal year before adding another platform for it to run on. However, it could also mean they are going to take the time to see if porting their interface to a console control scheme is even possible. If not, then they have to consider selling a package deal with a mouse and keyboard and if not then 360 owners are going to have to purchase them and increase the initial cost for the game in total.
It all leads back to the main argument here (for me at least): Can the usual, fairly simple console controller scheme work for an immersive, innovative MMORPG in the long haul? I, personal, have stated abundant reasons as to why it's simply impossible. Of course you can always use a mouse and keyboard, but the whole point of playing a console game is that you (generally) more comfortable, stretched out on a couch or some such and you really can't do that with a mouse and keyboard plugged into your console.
Also, what current and future mmorpg developers have to consider is that PC gamers made the mmorpg market what it is today. Many, many PC gamers own consoles to be sure, but for the most part gaming on a PC (for us) is infinitely more enjoyable. Personally, if there is a game released for PC and for my console (360) I tend to buy PC.
Besides that for, let's discuss individual costs for the 360 market to get online. First, you have to have internet, let's say you go for cable, about 45$ a month. Ok, so now to get onto Xbox live you have to subscribe to xbox live, 50$ for a year (roughly, don't really remember since I don't have it anyway). Standard subscription fees for most mmo's is about 15$/month. That alone works out to about $770/yr in total. So, essentially (in the case of the 360) you're paying an extra $50 a year, sure it's not much, but if you have a computer you don't have to (technically) pay for two internet access...'s and I can only imagine that the cost of xbox live might increase if mmo's gain a foothold due to the extra bandwidth the live servers may or may not have to support.
Well, let's think about the ps3. Well, the internet on that is not only more stable, but it's free. However, the entirety of the mmo community does not currently own a ps3. You want to talk about cost? Last I checked ps3's are still around $400. So, let's say for example, that developers make the move entirely to consoles and the good ones decide to go with the ps3 considering it's superior system specs ( really marginally better than 360 imo) and superior internet. So, essentially, in order to keep playing mmos developers are really going to make PC gamers buy one of the consoles? Can you say, "huge dick-slap in the face"?
Would like to add a few things here. A while back i could not imagine doing much else besides mmorpgs.
But as of a few years ago that just hasn't been the case. At this point i spend more time on console gaming then pc gaming for many reasons.
The cost factor of the pc verses consoles. The last time i upgraded pc was for SWG. That kept me well into the swing till recently. At xmass did another upgrade. It wasn't a big jump though so still most likely couldn't play certain pc games at this point on my even newer pc.
So going back to consoles have thourghly enjoyed the xbox 360 and the wii.
I am not sure when the change for me came but i do know why it came. The consle was just easier.
When i play i want to plug and go, that is what the console offers me.
While i most certainly miss my mmorpg addiction there just isn't anything on the landscape that looks interesting to me.
Where as console gaming i found i am enjoying sports games and rpgs.
So the question is while the debate is a interesting topic, i am just glad as a hobbiest gamer i have a choice
of plateforms i can choose to spend my time with. For now the console is ruling.
Well....I built this computer in 2005. Since then I have upgraded the Vid card once, at a cost of $130 (got a good deal.)
I play modern games (except Crysis) at maximum settings, and usually add mods to enhance the graphics, etc.
There is NO WAY that a 360, or PS3, can compete with this machine for graphics, even as old as it is.
I see screen shots all the time of games that are cross platform....the difference is amusing. And I love watching videos of console games with hitching and stuttering, where my 3 year old PC plats them smoothly, and better looking.
I always see a lot of ignorant comments about PC upgrading and components in threads like this. People like to claim that is costs hundreds of dollars to upgrade a PC every six months or so. Bull.
I'd say $130 over three years is pretty damn good. I also took the liberty of running the AOC system test, and looks like I won't have to upgrade for that either.
I also do a lot of modding for Oblivion. It's so funny to have to keep telling the Xbox players, "sorry, Mods are for PC only".
And I guess that has a lot to do with it....a console is generic...you buy one, it's the same as every other one of it's model, and it will always BE the same, until you spend another $400-600 on the newest one.
A PC is what you make it. If you want your games to look better, you invest in a better vid card. If you want it to sound better, you invest in a better audio card. Every couple years you might need a new componant, but it's rare that you'll need to replace the whole system.
You can customize it....and the games for it. You have countless mappable buttons and support for almost any type of controller imaginable.
You can play the games YOUR WAY, and they look and sound the way you want them to. It's choice, and the power to have a totally custom gaming experience.
And for those who are content to let others make choices for them, there's consoles....and the Bush administration.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
That is entirely besides the point, way to divert the GLARING point he just made.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
Thank you and thank you. I've been waiting for someone to post some first-hand footage of any sort of what exactly the extent of mods can do. You actually can mod consoles, the difference is it's leaps and bounds more difficult to get your hands on the developer packages to do so and I don't think there's any way to take it from a PC and download it on to your console to begin with.
I can't believe the biased opinions in these posts...After the first paragraph of the OP I thought this was actually going to be the first intelligent discussion on this subject. Then I got to the second paragraph...and I decided to read the rest so I could laugh a little. Whether or not you like it I'm pretty sure that MMO's are going to move to the console, but that doesn't mean they are going to be ONLY for consoles. The proof to why this will happen has already been stated enough.
If you didn't listen or couldn't face the facts cause you think PC gamers are a superior race, well I'm sorry. Being a console gamer myself I do not enjoy shallow, simple games. I enjoy FUN games, I enjoy a challenge, I enjoy playing other players, because they are the toughest players. No NPC will ever compete to the fun and challenge of a live person. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm playing on a PC or a console...just get me to the fun faster.
Well, a console seems to do it a lot better than a PC. Way cheaper too, I don't care what you guys are saying about price differences, it's quite obvious that a console is cheaper and doesn't need to be upgraded as often. Anyways, I'm sure I'll get a lot of crap for this post....I didn't put a lot of thought into it, I'm late and I'm tired I just wanted to throw myself into the fire because I couldn't believe how stuck up some PC gamers are.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards, and it's clear that there is only so much they can do. While the screeenshots you posted are impressive, those characters are nowhere near Uncharted: Drake's Fortune's or Mass Effect's characters. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
That is entirely besides the point, way to divert the GLARING point he just made.
"There is NO WAY that a 360, or PS3, can compete with this machine for graphics, even as old as it is."
"I see screen shots all the time of games that are cross platform....the difference is amusing. And I love watching videos of console games with hitching and stuttering, where my 3 year old PC plats them smoothly, and better looking."
Do I need to point everything out for you? Please read first before you hit the reply button.
Check out TESNexus.com for some fantastic Oblivion mods.
By the way, the character I posted with the wings is a custom race called an "Avariel", a flying race, and yes, you CAN fly with that character.
You can also go so far as to use Facegen to develop a digital representation of just about anyone you want...including yourself, and then import the face into Oblivion onto your character....or companion.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.
Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.
Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.
This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Making a digital representation of your face isn't exclusive to PC, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas uses this feature as well.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.
Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.
This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Well, thanks to MODS, Oblivion can be played on a PC today, with modern graphics, and virtually unlimited new content. 1000's of quests are available thanks to mods, and then there's total overhauls, like Oscuro's.
But enough on that... let's adress the rest of your post.
How about this thing called "scalability". Yes, there may be a lot of differant hardware for PCs....a large range. This is where detail sliders and scalability options come in. I am sure that most people here are familiar with this type of thing...this IS an MMO site, after all.
And, it's not so much that console "games are optimised to take full advantage of the hardware", but that they are scaled back to work within the LIMITATIONS of the hardware.
But, since we're talking about Crysis as well (And, by the way, there is no Console version of that game)...
The following bit is from a recent article on Crysis-online.com :
Why is Crysis on the PC?
Cevat Yerli, CEO and President of Crytek has a point to prove. He wants to show the world that gaming on the pc is not dead, but rather more alive than ever before. The PC gives Crytek much more freedom than a console such as the Xbox360.
Crytek have many goals they would like to achieve with Crysis. Some of their goals just can't be achieved on a console. Unlike many other game developers, Crytek have integrity. Cevat Yerli has a vision, that is to make the best FPS ever made. That milestone is just so much harder to reach on a console due to the hardware limitations.
Another reason is that Crytek have more experience with making games on the PC. They've only ever made one other game, and that was the pc version of FarCry (ubisoft bought the rights to FarCry soon after it was released). The majority of Crytek's fans are pc gamers, so why disappoint a large fan base by producing a game for consoles.
I know what you're saying. Couldn't they make a pc version and a console version? Well, please read on...
Why Can't Crysis Come to Consoles?
First of all, Crysis could be ported to consoles. It's only a matter of working out how many sacrifices would need to be made to make that achievable. But if Crytek can't reach a similar quality bar as they can with the PC version of Crysis, then it's not going to happen. If Crytek still wanted to make a game for the consoles, then they'd make a new game designed specifically for the consoles. Game ports have never really worked well. Games should either be designed for the PC, or consoles; not both. It's rare to have both the PC and console version of a game become successful.
Sure, Crytek would probably make an extra few million dollars if they did release Crysis on the consoles, but would it be worth the risk of damaging the companies reputation for making top quality games? I don't think so, and neither does Cevat Yerli according to many of his recent comments. There's also the bigger question which is can they actually do it?
Like I said, if Crytek 'can' reach that same quality bar on the consoles, then I can't see why they wouldn't release a console version of Crysis for Xbox360 and PS3. But If they did, it wouldn't be coming out anytime soon, and you probably wouldn't have the same gaming experience on the consoles as you would on the PC.
Here's what Michael Khaimzon ( Lead Art Director ) had to say in a fairly recent interview...
"I don’t think there would be any problem to convert anything we work on to the next-gen consoles if we decided to. We have enough power here, with programmers and artists to be able to do such a thing. It's just a matter of making the decision which isn't mine to make. We would just have to see how much of a sacrifice to the game we'd have to make."
Like I said, new added custom content can be added to console games, it's just a matter of developers allowing it on the consoles because they are definitly capable of doing so, and my guess is that it's only a matter of time before modding becomes a standard on consoles. It's clearly still taking its baby steps.
You can only scale a game down so much, this is proven by the fact Consoles can't run crysis (or at least in its current state).
And like I said, the average PC game doesn't look better, so that means there are exceptions ofcourse. I personally think one must be out of his mind to pay so much money just to play a game like Crysis, because a PC that can run Crysis with all it's graphical glory costs a heck of a lot money to build, nevermind about a pre-build desktop. There isn't anything on the horizon that looks as good as Crysis, which clearly shows that most developers do not want to aim for the high end market.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.
Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.
This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Making a digital representation of your face isn't exclusive to PC, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas uses this feature as well.
It's people like you that fail to full comprehend or even THINK about what exactly draws people to mmos and what exactly it would take to translate that to a console in the same way it does now, or PC games in general. You completely missed the fact that he has over -50- freaking player-made mods for a SINGLE pc game. It's just an over powering example of what -players- themselves can and have done with a PC game that has yet to be accomplished on really any level for a console.
Let's go with people saying you could port WoW to consoles right now with no problem. Have you REALLY thought about that? How would they handle skills? All of the classes in WoW have tons of skills that they regularly use in almost any situation that you simply can't control with a gamepad. Ok, so plug in a mouse and keyboard right? Well, as I have said at least four times in this thread, you take out the whole reason consoles are there by adding in a mouse and keyboard; ease of use and comfortability with a controller.
Besides that, you -do- realize that not even any console currently on the market can run Crysis at FULL specs right? The whole big deal about Crysis is that is is the pinnacle of an example of a game that far exceeds current hardware, so that is a completely moot discussion.
Back to mmo controls on a console. So let's say you dumb down the controls so it fits into the realm of a gamepad, what happens then? Well, you better only be releasing it for consoles because no one with a PC is going to want to play it, it's going to be too restrictive. So with a dumbed down interface, how intelligent and strategic and involved are things really going to be? Not nearly what they could be because of how constrained they would have to be to fit in with such a simplified control scheme. You'd get a game like Two Worlds, fast paced, reasonably fun, but would you honestly pay monthly to play that game online? No freaking way, no one in their right mind would.
Really sit down and think out these complexities before responding again. And don't give me that, "you're reading too much into it" BS, because those are the realistic issues that game developers will have to address if they are as serious as they appear to be at the moment.
Also, as far as PC sales "doing poorly", you -do- realize that by many accounts we're in a recession at the moment, right? That and you do realize that if you shop around and actually educate yourself even to a minor degree you don't -need- to upgrade your PC every six months. If you know what you're doing you might spend about 900$ at most (oh wait, wasn't the friggen ps3 about 850$ when it first came out? WEIRD HUH?) for the parts, play a game of 'connect the wires' and put the thing together yourself and have a top-end system then three or four years down the line upgrade a single part and you'll still be able to play any game on the market with no problems on most likely max or near-max settings.
You see, consoles follow a negative curve when it comes to hardware. They start off really high, but as software advances they drop, sometimes in huge amounts, in how they are able to keep up. So while you might spend at most around 230$ every three to four years for an absolutely top-end part to put in your computer to keep it up to date (which is only if you REALLY want to stay cutting edge) you have that option. While your console falls more and more behind, you can't do anything about it. It's a double-edge sword, you get what you get, for good and bad, end of story.
I somehow still doubt that in any near future, I'll be able to turn on a console, use Photoshop , Blender, etc to mod a game. yes, the concept of mods is starting to catch on with consoles, but will never reach the potential of PC game modability, simply because of the tools available and the flexibility of the PC platform.
Also, according to some of the benchmarks I'm seeing, this X1950 shyould be able to run Crysis at 1280 x 1024, med settings, ~36fps.
Granted, that's not the best settings possible, but it still CAN run the game, at a playable setting. Thanks of course to scalability.
A year down the road, what we see in Crysis may very well be "average" for PC graphics. The hardware that's cutting edge today will be tomorrow's "$130 upgrade", and console graphics will....still look exactly the same, because they can't be upgraded.
.....Whether or not you like it I'm pretty sure that MMO's are going to move to the console, but that doesn't mean they are going to be ONLY for consoles... - Leoj
Probably, the single most important statement in this entire thread. MMO's are going to be developed for consoles whether multi-platform releases or exclusive releases and that's just a, near at hand, industry reality.
No matter what side you fall on, in the 'Toaster' over the 'Toaster-oven' debate, they both do the job in the end; and the users(hardcore one and all) will stuff their gapping maws on the prepared goodnes(games).
If, over the course of the next 4-5 years, we see a trend that favors a greater number of console exclusive releases in MMO's, I won't be surprised. I do, however, expect more 'independant' developers to come to be, and try to fill any pc release void.
This may, actually, be a good thing for pc exclusive titles in the long run. Where there's a market, there's a company waiting to take and fulfill your order.
All of us have a thing for crispy bread... Some of us want to add cheese and bacon to it. Trying to do so in the toaster is just a mess. If you want to do more, more often, the toaster-oven is your best choice. If you try to make the two work together, then you're going to have to be satisfied with just toast.
The gaming industry has more than enough room to cater to both pc's and consoles. If they choose one over the other, they ultimately just create room in their ranks for new companies, to take over the profit margin of the least attended to choice.
Console MMO's whether exclusive or part of multi-platform releases aren't an issue. They only seem a concern to a pc(toaster-oven) preference player, if they are both forced to play on the same servers. The title would have to be watered down over the course of it's run(if not from launch) in terms of graphical improvements and some game mechanic features.
Console MMO's are on their way and they'll be hit. Pc MMO's are always going to be present and popular. The idea of mixing the two on the same servers as the industry standard is what will be tried, tested and deemed a niche, or an outright failure, in the end.
EDIT--My money is on the OUTRIGHT EPIC FAILURE in trying to merge these platforms on MMO servers. The titles won't appeal to both types of gamers at the same time for different reasons.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
OP, you are arguing over futile functions. Mods and scalability won't be a deciding factor when making a choice between PC and consoles. You say graphics will be better on PC, but I say we have reached the final milestone in graphics representation, what is left is a transition to photorealistic, and that isn't hapening all that fast.
A new console and HDTV is all the graphical awesomnes a random person needs. Complexity? I think you are mistaking complicated for complex, because interface doesen't need to be complicated to be complex, but making it complicated does not make it complex, it just makes it too boring to learn.
You are hardcore, and that's OK, but there are other living people on Earth at this point of time who realy couldn't care less about the stuff you say PC are superior at. WE WANT FUN! PC's are becoming a chore, more and more.
Gamers? We want plug&play and we want it to work, we don't want to work for it to play... blah blah blah... enough poetry for now.
If anything, this discussion is an exellent example of the shift that is happening, and it is hapening. If consoles weren't a viable platform, developers wouldn't move to them and abandon PCs, and that's just how it is.
OP, you are arguing over futile functions. Mods and scalability won't be a deciding factor when making a choice between PC and consoles.
For modders, it certainly will be. Eidos is going to have to make a PC version of DX3, because not only due to the mess of porting the game from consoles to PC for DX2, but because modders need the PC version.
It is the modders who kept the game's memory alive for 8 years, afterall.
I've never seen such disgust for consoles in my life than the release of DX2; nor will I forget how Eidos/Ion Storm destroyed DX because they were aiming for that metrosexual Emo X-Box player (who had zero loyalty to the franchise).
Some games are just made to be modded, and yes, it will be the deciding factor in buying it FOR THE PC.
MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini
But today consoles seems to support a limited mod ability, trough downloable content. Is really a pain in the ass for the authors, because need to be checked by the console owner, but once is allowed, I bet is posible to able a simple interface to download and install mods. Something like Firefox extensions.
Of course, these mods will be developed on a PC. The PC has better graphic editors and text editors. Your target architecture could be different than your dev architecture.
You could make a game for Windows in Linux, compiling for windows. John Carmack created Quake in a type of UNIX OS, then compiled it for MS-DOS.
Modders could create mods and test then on the console, in a offline test mode, or something.
ALWAYS will be faster and easier to mod for the PC, but is posible to mod for the console.
Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan As far as that 70% of MMO gamers -leaning- (key word there, LEANING) towards the hardcore spectrum of gaming it's personal experience. They may not start out as hardcore gamers, but as I have stated, mmos exploit competativeness far more than any other genre currently does (again, my opinion). Let me put it to you this way; What happens when you see some character running about with some uber, really shiny piece of gear? A lot of the time most people go, "Man, I so freaking want that!" and thus level ever harder in order to obtain said item. In that instance a casual gamer might, for a time at least, be turned into what many would call "hardcore" out of the urge to compete.
I think WOW pretty much has shown that your statement is NOT true. In fact, the majority of WOW players have never seen the inside of a raid dungeon.
Furthermore, the need to "get stuff" does not necessarily equate the need to go hardcore. I can see casual players gravitate towards easier, grinding games like Maple stories. You can do something like Maple Story *easy* on a console.
So you're fact, have anything to support that? Because of the two different servers I have played on as alliance and horde respectively practically every person I ran into had at least one end game epic from either pvp (technically still a raid) or from one of the raids themselves. So, again, based on personal experience I'd say more people play into end game content than not.
And...wow you really went there. Maple Story? You really think Maple Story would attract ps3 or 360 owners in enough of a way to warrant porting it? You do realize that when any game developer pushes an mmo they promote the grander (end game) aspects of the game, right? Most Western gamers don't really care for mindless grinding, they want to do the fun stuff, the actual content and what not.
Of course. Here is ONE article talking about STATISTICS (as opposed to your anecdotal evidence which is drawn from a SMALL sample and cannot be accurate). This article is done BEFORE WOW hit 10M but close enough (when WOW has 9.3M subscribers).
"WoW has 9.3 million customers, 7.3 million of which have never even defeated a boss in any of these zones."
That is a whopping 78% of the players who are not raiding.
Now I don't count pvp or crafting epics because those are a LOT easier to get (just grinding pvp) than 25-man raids. Those are really not that hardcore. You just need to grind.
The modability argument: MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini But today consoles seems to support a limited mod ability, trough downloable content. Is really a pain in the ass for the authors, because need to be checked by the console owner, but once is allowed, I bet is posible to able a simple interface to download and install mods. Something like Firefox extensions. Of course, these mods will be developed on a PC. The PC has better graphic editors and text editors. Your target architecture could be different than your dev architecture. You could make a game for Windows in Linux, compiling for windows. John Carmack created Quake in a type of UNIX OS, then compiled it for MS-DOS. Modders could create mods and test then on the console, in a offline test mode, or something. ALWAYS will be faster and easier to mod for the PC, but is posible to mod for the console.
I beg to differ.
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc.
And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
Once again, I pick ONE example. many other MMOs have been modded with important, "how would we ever live without it" features.
Of course, yes, it would be possible to develop mods on a PC and then download them to a console. After all, the games themselves are developed on PCs.
However, you then lose the community dynamic. Not everyone will want to download an SDK for EVERY game they play, when on a PC all you need is a few common tools, I.E. photoshop, 3dmax, etc.
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc? Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Ok, off the modability rant....to the "instant gratification" trend of console gamers.
MMOs require that you spend time developing a character, spend time making a place for yourself in the community, questing for items, raiding....etc. All very time consuming activities, as we all know.
I don't see many "plug and play, I want it now, instant gratification" console users spending that time, really. And I don't see them playing any console MMO for very long.
So what we would end up with is a MMO with a subscriber base that wanders off after a month to play the new Guitar Hero, or what-not.
Console gamers are, simply because of their need for simplicity, instant gratification, and low attention span, not a good target audience for an MMO.
Comments
I always apretiate a good sense of irony.
I'm sure the big name companies that are developing mmos for consoles have done focus studies to see if the market would support such a move. However, and I think Sony has proven this more than any other, just because a company has a bit of evidence, a big dollar sign in mind and too much ambition without enough real thought on the subject their ideas are bound to fail. I honestly don't believe that these big name companies have done enough research into the market. My suspicion is that they are responding to a growing market (the mmorpg market) and trying to steer it into a cheaper medium for them to develop.
The simple fact is game companies are only trying to increase profits and IF they succeed it has the potential to generate a lot more bang for their buck. It's not unprecedented that a big company has gotten too ambitious in the sake of increased profits (don't ask me for examples, just google it or something if you don't believe me). The fact that so many developers are pushing for console mmos doesn't mean anything other than the big wigs are going to try to force a market move.
As far as Funcom goes, their own website gives evidence that the 360 version of AoC is -not- going to be released in may. In fact, the chances are they're going to have to take an entire extra year on it to port it to the 360. What does this imply? Well, it could be as innocent as waiting to see how the game fairs for a fiscal year before adding another platform for it to run on. However, it could also mean they are going to take the time to see if porting their interface to a console control scheme is even possible. If not, then they have to consider selling a package deal with a mouse and keyboard and if not then 360 owners are going to have to purchase them and increase the initial cost for the game in total.
It all leads back to the main argument here (for me at least): Can the usual, fairly simple console controller scheme work for an immersive, innovative MMORPG in the long haul? I, personal, have stated abundant reasons as to why it's simply impossible. Of course you can always use a mouse and keyboard, but the whole point of playing a console game is that you (generally) more comfortable, stretched out on a couch or some such and you really can't do that with a mouse and keyboard plugged into your console.
Also, what current and future mmorpg developers have to consider is that PC gamers made the mmorpg market what it is today. Many, many PC gamers own consoles to be sure, but for the most part gaming on a PC (for us) is infinitely more enjoyable. Personally, if there is a game released for PC and for my console (360) I tend to buy PC.
Besides that for, let's discuss individual costs for the 360 market to get online. First, you have to have internet, let's say you go for cable, about 45$ a month. Ok, so now to get onto Xbox live you have to subscribe to xbox live, 50$ for a year (roughly, don't really remember since I don't have it anyway). Standard subscription fees for most mmo's is about 15$/month. That alone works out to about $770/yr in total. So, essentially (in the case of the 360) you're paying an extra $50 a year, sure it's not much, but if you have a computer you don't have to (technically) pay for two internet access...'s and I can only imagine that the cost of xbox live might increase if mmo's gain a foothold due to the extra bandwidth the live servers may or may not have to support.
Well, let's think about the ps3. Well, the internet on that is not only more stable, but it's free. However, the entirety of the mmo community does not currently own a ps3. You want to talk about cost? Last I checked ps3's are still around $400. So, let's say for example, that developers make the move entirely to consoles and the good ones decide to go with the ps3 considering it's superior system specs ( really marginally better than 360 imo) and superior internet. So, essentially, in order to keep playing mmos developers are really going to make PC gamers buy one of the consoles? Can you say, "huge dick-slap in the face"?
Would like to add a few things here. A while back i could not imagine doing much else besides mmorpgs.
But as of a few years ago that just hasn't been the case. At this point i spend more time on console gaming then pc gaming for many reasons.
The cost factor of the pc verses consoles. The last time i upgraded pc was for SWG. That kept me well into the swing till recently. At xmass did another upgrade. It wasn't a big jump though so still most likely couldn't play certain pc games at this point on my even newer pc.
So going back to consoles have thourghly enjoyed the xbox 360 and the wii.
I am not sure when the change for me came but i do know why it came. The consle was just easier.
When i play i want to plug and go, that is what the console offers me.
While i most certainly miss my mmorpg addiction there just isn't anything on the landscape that looks interesting to me.
Where as console gaming i found i am enjoying sports games and rpgs.
So the question is while the debate is a interesting topic, i am just glad as a hobbiest gamer i have a choice
of plateforms i can choose to spend my time with. For now the console is ruling.
Well....I built this computer in 2005. Since then I have upgraded the Vid card once, at a cost of $130 (got a good deal.)
I play modern games (except Crysis) at maximum settings, and usually add mods to enhance the graphics, etc.
There is NO WAY that a 360, or PS3, can compete with this machine for graphics, even as old as it is.
I see screen shots all the time of games that are cross platform....the difference is amusing. And I love watching videos of console games with hitching and stuttering, where my 3 year old PC plats them smoothly, and better looking.
I always see a lot of ignorant comments about PC upgrading and components in threads like this. People like to claim that is costs hundreds of dollars to upgrade a PC every six months or so. Bull.
I'd say $130 over three years is pretty damn good. I also took the liberty of running the AOC system test, and looks like I won't have to upgrade for that either.
I also do a lot of modding for Oblivion. It's so funny to have to keep telling the Xbox players, "sorry, Mods are for PC only".
And I guess that has a lot to do with it....a console is generic...you buy one, it's the same as every other one of it's model, and it will always BE the same, until you spend another $400-600 on the newest one.
A PC is what you make it. If you want your games to look better, you invest in a better vid card. If you want it to sound better, you invest in a better audio card. Every couple years you might need a new componant, but it's rare that you'll need to replace the whole system.
You can customize it....and the games for it. You have countless mappable buttons and support for almost any type of controller imaginable.
You can play the games YOUR WAY, and they look and sound the way you want them to. It's choice, and the power to have a totally custom gaming experience.
And for those who are content to let others make choices for them, there's consoles....and the Bush administration.
Sorry WhargOul, but if your PC can't even handle Crysis, then the games do not look better on your PC then on a console, I suggest you take a better and closer look at the graphics of console games because to be honnest, what you said was pulled right out of your ass.
That is entirely besides the point, way to divert the GLARING point he just made.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
Thank you and thank you. I've been waiting for someone to post some first-hand footage of any sort of what exactly the extent of mods can do. You actually can mod consoles, the difference is it's leaps and bounds more difficult to get your hands on the developer packages to do so and I don't think there's any way to take it from a PC and download it on to your console to begin with.
I can't believe the biased opinions in these posts...After the first paragraph of the OP I thought this was actually going to be the first intelligent discussion on this subject. Then I got to the second paragraph...and I decided to read the rest so I could laugh a little. Whether or not you like it I'm pretty sure that MMO's are going to move to the console, but that doesn't mean they are going to be ONLY for consoles. The proof to why this will happen has already been stated enough.
If you didn't listen or couldn't face the facts cause you think PC gamers are a superior race, well I'm sorry. Being a console gamer myself I do not enjoy shallow, simple games. I enjoy FUN games, I enjoy a challenge, I enjoy playing other players, because they are the toughest players. No NPC will ever compete to the fun and challenge of a live person. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm playing on a PC or a console...just get me to the fun faster.
Well, a console seems to do it a lot better than a PC. Way cheaper too, I don't care what you guys are saying about price differences, it's quite obvious that a console is cheaper and doesn't need to be upgraded as often. Anyways, I'm sure I'll get a lot of crap for this post....I didn't put a lot of thought into it, I'm late and I'm tired I just wanted to throw myself into the fire because I couldn't believe how stuck up some PC gamers are.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards, and it's clear that there is only so much they can do. While the screeenshots you posted are impressive, those characters are nowhere near Uncharted: Drake's Fortune's or Mass Effect's characters. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
That is entirely besides the point, way to divert the GLARING point he just made.
"There is NO WAY that a 360, or PS3, can compete with this machine for graphics, even as old as it is.""I see screen shots all the time of games that are cross platform....the difference is amusing. And I love watching videos of console games with hitching and stuttering, where my 3 year old PC plats them smoothly, and better looking."
Do I need to point everything out for you? Please read first before you hit the reply button.
Check out TESNexus.com for some fantastic Oblivion mods.
By the way, the character I posted with the wings is a custom race called an "Avariel", a flying race, and yes, you CAN fly with that character.
You can also go so far as to use Facegen to develop a digital representation of just about anyone you want...including yourself, and then import the face into Oblivion onto your character....or companion.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.
This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Making a digital representation of your face isn't exclusive to PC, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas uses this feature as well.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Well, thanks to MODS, Oblivion can be played on a PC today, with modern graphics, and virtually unlimited new content. 1000's of quests are available thanks to mods, and then there's total overhauls, like Oscuro's.
But enough on that... let's adress the rest of your post.
How about this thing called "scalability". Yes, there may be a lot of differant hardware for PCs....a large range. This is where detail sliders and scalability options come in. I am sure that most people here are familiar with this type of thing...this IS an MMO site, after all.
And, it's not so much that console "games are optimised to take full advantage of the hardware", but that they are scaled back to work within the LIMITATIONS of the hardware.
But, since we're talking about Crysis as well (And, by the way, there is no Console version of that game)...
The following bit is from a recent article on Crysis-online.com :
Why is Crysis on the PC?
Cevat Yerli, CEO and President of Crytek has a point to prove. He wants to show the world that gaming on the pc is not dead, but rather more alive than ever before. The PC gives Crytek much more freedom than a console such as the Xbox360.
Crytek have many goals they would like to achieve with Crysis. Some of their goals just can't be achieved on a console. Unlike many other game developers, Crytek have integrity. Cevat Yerli has a vision, that is to make the best FPS ever made. That milestone is just so much harder to reach on a console due to the hardware limitations.
Another reason is that Crytek have more experience with making games on the PC. They've only ever made one other game, and that was the pc version of FarCry (ubisoft bought the rights to FarCry soon after it was released). The majority of Crytek's fans are pc gamers, so why disappoint a large fan base by producing a game for consoles.
I know what you're saying. Couldn't they make a pc version and a console version? Well, please read on...
Why Can't Crysis Come to Consoles?
First of all, Crysis could be ported to consoles. It's only a matter of working out how many sacrifices would need to be made to make that achievable. But if Crytek can't reach a similar quality bar as they can with the PC version of Crysis, then it's not going to happen. If Crytek still wanted to make a game for the consoles, then they'd make a new game designed specifically for the consoles. Game ports have never really worked well. Games should either be designed for the PC, or consoles; not both. It's rare to have both the PC and console version of a game become successful.
Sure, Crytek would probably make an extra few million dollars if they did release Crysis on the consoles, but would it be worth the risk of damaging the companies reputation for making top quality games? I don't think so, and neither does Cevat Yerli according to many of his recent comments. There's also the bigger question which is can they actually do it?
Like I said, if Crytek 'can' reach that same quality bar on the consoles, then I can't see why they wouldn't release a console version of Crysis for Xbox360 and PS3. But If they did, it wouldn't be coming out anytime soon, and you probably wouldn't have the same gaming experience on the consoles as you would on the PC.
Here's what Michael Khaimzon ( Lead Art Director ) had to say in a fairly recent interview...
"I don’t think there would be any problem to convert anything we work on to the next-gen consoles if we decided to. We have enough power here, with programmers and artists to be able to do such a thing. It's just a matter of making the decision which isn't mine to make. We would just have to see how much of a sacrifice to the game we'd have to make."
Like I said, new added custom content can be added to console games, it's just a matter of developers allowing it on the consoles because they are definitly capable of doing so, and my guess is that it's only a matter of time before modding becomes a standard on consoles. It's clearly still taking its baby steps.
You can only scale a game down so much, this is proven by the fact Consoles can't run crysis (or at least in its current state).
And like I said, the average PC game doesn't look better, so that means there are exceptions ofcourse. I personally think one must be out of his mind to pay so much money just to play a game like Crysis, because a PC that can run Crysis with all it's graphical glory costs a heck of a lot money to build, nevermind about a pre-build desktop. There isn't anything on the horizon that looks as good as Crysis, which clearly shows that most developers do not want to aim for the high end market.
I meant that I don't OWN Crysis, so I can't comment on it.
And I'd check that attitude of yours. last I knew there was no way to modify textures in console games, so you're stuck with whatever the game developers give you.
This means that you CAN NOT have graphics as good as a PC, simply because you CAN NOT use mods.
meaning that things like this are impossible: Example and Example
Impossible because those those are custom skin textures, on custom meshes, at FOUR TIMES the resolution of stock Oblivion textures. And not only is every single Character and NPC in the game graphically improved, but so are the environment textures, (Qarl's Texture Pack 3, with parallax shading), the weather system (Natural Environments), and the overall play of the game (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul). On top of that, CM Partners, allowing custom built NPCs to join you in your quests through the game.
All in all I have over 50 mods on this ONE game.
By the way...did I mention that none of this is possible on a console??
So apparently the only arguement you have is for old games that are already released and have to be enhanced by users themself to get them up to par for modern standards. Meanwhile NEW console games are getting better and better each time in terms of graphics.
It's not possible on a console because developers chose not to use it, not because a console can't do it. Mods work just fine in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament 3. And while you can't upgrade the graphics, you can certainly add other gameplay enhancements if developers chose to do so.
And trust me, if you only paid 130$ for your new video card, you're not going to come anywhere near running Crysis on max.
Do I need to make more posts detailing what is possible with more games? I used OB as an example. What you need to realise is that on an X-360, what you get is vanilla OB. And that's what you are stuck with.Same goes for any other game that is cross platform. You get the game, and that's how it's always going to look.
Ok, NEW console games are looking better and better. Granted. But guess what....NEW PC games are looking better and better as well...and while they are doing that, new hardware tech becomes available, leading to the possiblility of UPGRADES taking the PC even further out of the reach of consoles.
See, it happens every few years. New consoles are released that come really close to what PC technology can offer at the time. But then a year down the road, the console is still the same, and the PC has continued to evolve. PCs pull ahead, and eventually new Consoles are released.
It's a game of catch-up.
And for my $130 I got a Sapphire ATI X1950 512mb. According to reviews and comments across the web, it will handle Crysis just fine.
It will handle Crysis alright, just not on maximum settings. Okay sure, you can't upgrade the graphics in a game like Oblivion on a console because of the lack of mod support, but I don't really see what the big deal is. I really don't see myself playing Oblivion 2 years after I finished (for as much as you can finish a game like oblivion) and then caring how bad the graphics look. The thing with consoles is that every piece of hardware is exactly the same.
This means that games can be fully optimized to take full advantage of the hardware. This is not the case with PC games, as PC games have to run on a whole bunch of different hardware and software settings, Add in that PC gaming industry isn't doing so hot right now and thus developers have to pay attention to mid end PC's as well and the result is that the average PC game simply does not look better then the average console game.
Making a digital representation of your face isn't exclusive to PC, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas uses this feature as well.
It's people like you that fail to full comprehend or even THINK about what exactly draws people to mmos and what exactly it would take to translate that to a console in the same way it does now, or PC games in general. You completely missed the fact that he has over -50- freaking player-made mods for a SINGLE pc game. It's just an over powering example of what -players- themselves can and have done with a PC game that has yet to be accomplished on really any level for a console.Let's go with people saying you could port WoW to consoles right now with no problem. Have you REALLY thought about that? How would they handle skills? All of the classes in WoW have tons of skills that they regularly use in almost any situation that you simply can't control with a gamepad. Ok, so plug in a mouse and keyboard right? Well, as I have said at least four times in this thread, you take out the whole reason consoles are there by adding in a mouse and keyboard; ease of use and comfortability with a controller.
Besides that, you -do- realize that not even any console currently on the market can run Crysis at FULL specs right? The whole big deal about Crysis is that is is the pinnacle of an example of a game that far exceeds current hardware, so that is a completely moot discussion.
Back to mmo controls on a console. So let's say you dumb down the controls so it fits into the realm of a gamepad, what happens then? Well, you better only be releasing it for consoles because no one with a PC is going to want to play it, it's going to be too restrictive. So with a dumbed down interface, how intelligent and strategic and involved are things really going to be? Not nearly what they could be because of how constrained they would have to be to fit in with such a simplified control scheme. You'd get a game like Two Worlds, fast paced, reasonably fun, but would you honestly pay monthly to play that game online? No freaking way, no one in their right mind would.
Really sit down and think out these complexities before responding again. And don't give me that, "you're reading too much into it" BS, because those are the realistic issues that game developers will have to address if they are as serious as they appear to be at the moment.
Also, as far as PC sales "doing poorly", you -do- realize that by many accounts we're in a recession at the moment, right? That and you do realize that if you shop around and actually educate yourself even to a minor degree you don't -need- to upgrade your PC every six months. If you know what you're doing you might spend about 900$ at most (oh wait, wasn't the friggen ps3 about 850$ when it first came out? WEIRD HUH?) for the parts, play a game of 'connect the wires' and put the thing together yourself and have a top-end system then three or four years down the line upgrade a single part and you'll still be able to play any game on the market with no problems on most likely max or near-max settings.
You see, consoles follow a negative curve when it comes to hardware. They start off really high, but as software advances they drop, sometimes in huge amounts, in how they are able to keep up. So while you might spend at most around 230$ every three to four years for an absolutely top-end part to put in your computer to keep it up to date (which is only if you REALLY want to stay cutting edge) you have that option. While your console falls more and more behind, you can't do anything about it. It's a double-edge sword, you get what you get, for good and bad, end of story.
I somehow still doubt that in any near future, I'll be able to turn on a console, use Photoshop , Blender, etc to mod a game. yes, the concept of mods is starting to catch on with consoles, but will never reach the potential of PC game modability, simply because of the tools available and the flexibility of the PC platform.
Also, according to some of the benchmarks I'm seeing, this X1950 shyould be able to run Crysis at 1280 x 1024, med settings, ~36fps.
Granted, that's not the best settings possible, but it still CAN run the game, at a playable setting. Thanks of course to scalability.
A year down the road, what we see in Crysis may very well be "average" for PC graphics. The hardware that's cutting edge today will be tomorrow's "$130 upgrade", and console graphics will....still look exactly the same, because they can't be upgraded.
for me pc is more convenient to use because pc has more use aside from gaming.. if im not mistaken consoles are for gaming only..
.....Whether or not you like it I'm pretty sure that MMO's are going to move to the console, but that doesn't mean they are going to be ONLY for consoles... - Leoj
Probably, the single most important statement in this entire thread. MMO's are going to be developed for consoles whether multi-platform releases or exclusive releases and that's just a, near at hand, industry reality.
No matter what side you fall on, in the 'Toaster' over the 'Toaster-oven' debate, they both do the job in the end; and the users(hardcore one and all) will stuff their gapping maws on the prepared goodnes(games).
If, over the course of the next 4-5 years, we see a trend that favors a greater number of console exclusive releases in MMO's, I won't be surprised. I do, however, expect more 'independant' developers to come to be, and try to fill any pc release void.
This may, actually, be a good thing for pc exclusive titles in the long run. Where there's a market, there's a company waiting to take and fulfill your order.
All of us have a thing for crispy bread... Some of us want to add cheese and bacon to it. Trying to do so in the toaster is just a mess. If you want to do more, more often, the toaster-oven is your best choice. If you try to make the two work together, then you're going to have to be satisfied with just toast.
The gaming industry has more than enough room to cater to both pc's and consoles. If they choose one over the other, they ultimately just create room in their ranks for new companies, to take over the profit margin of the least attended to choice.
Console MMO's whether exclusive or part of multi-platform releases aren't an issue. They only seem a concern to a pc(toaster-oven) preference player, if they are both forced to play on the same servers. The title would have to be watered down over the course of it's run(if not from launch) in terms of graphical improvements and some game mechanic features.
Console MMO's are on their way and they'll be hit. Pc MMO's are always going to be present and popular. The idea of mixing the two on the same servers as the industry standard is what will be tried, tested and deemed a niche, or an outright failure, in the end.
EDIT-- My money is on the OUTRIGHT EPIC FAILURE in trying to merge these platforms on MMO servers. The titles won't appeal to both types of gamers at the same time for different reasons.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
OP, you are arguing over futile functions. Mods and scalability won't be a deciding factor when making a choice between PC and consoles. You say graphics will be better on PC, but I say we have reached the final milestone in graphics representation, what is left is a transition to photorealistic, and that isn't hapening all that fast.
A new console and HDTV is all the graphical awesomnes a random person needs. Complexity? I think you are mistaking complicated for complex, because interface doesen't need to be complicated to be complex, but making it complicated does not make it complex, it just makes it too boring to learn.
You are hardcore, and that's OK, but there are other living people on Earth at this point of time who realy couldn't care less about the stuff you say PC are superior at. WE WANT FUN! PC's are becoming a chore, more and more.
Gamers? We want plug&play and we want it to work, we don't want to work for it to play... blah blah blah... enough poetry for now.
If anything, this discussion is an exellent example of the shift that is happening, and it is hapening. If consoles weren't a viable platform, developers wouldn't move to them and abandon PCs, and that's just how it is.
You realy need to take a peek out of your box OP.
For modders, it certainly will be. Eidos is going to have to make a PC version of DX3, because not only due to the mess of porting the game from consoles to PC for DX2, but because modders need the PC version.
It is the modders who kept the game's memory alive for 8 years, afterall.
I've never seen such disgust for consoles in my life than the release of DX2; nor will I forget how Eidos/Ion Storm destroyed DX because they were aiming for that metrosexual Emo X-Box player (who had zero loyalty to the franchise).
Some games are just made to be modded, and yes, it will be the deciding factor in buying it FOR THE PC.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
The modability argument:
MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini
But today consoles seems to support a limited mod ability, trough downloable content. Is really a pain in the ass for the authors, because need to be checked by the console owner, but once is allowed, I bet is posible to able a simple interface to download and install mods. Something like Firefox extensions.
Of course, these mods will be developed on a PC. The PC has better graphic editors and text editors. Your target architecture could be different than your dev architecture.
You could make a game for Windows in Linux, compiling for windows. John Carmack created Quake in a type of UNIX OS, then compiled it for MS-DOS.
Modders could create mods and test then on the console, in a offline test mode, or something.
ALWAYS will be faster and easier to mod for the PC, but is posible to mod for the console.
I think WOW pretty much has shown that your statement is NOT true. In fact, the majority of WOW players have never seen the inside of a raid dungeon.
Furthermore, the need to "get stuff" does not necessarily equate the need to go hardcore. I can see casual players gravitate towards easier, grinding games like Maple stories. You can do something like Maple Story *easy* on a console.
So you're fact, have anything to support that? Because of the two different servers I have played on as alliance and horde respectively practically every person I ran into had at least one end game epic from either pvp (technically still a raid) or from one of the raids themselves. So, again, based on personal experience I'd say more people play into end game content than not.And...wow you really went there. Maple Story? You really think Maple Story would attract ps3 or 360 owners in enough of a way to warrant porting it? You do realize that when any game developer pushes an mmo they promote the grander (end game) aspects of the game, right? Most Western gamers don't really care for mindless grinding, they want to do the fun stuff, the actual content and what not.
Of course. Here is ONE article talking about STATISTICS (as opposed to your anecdotal evidence which is drawn from a SMALL sample and cannot be accurate). This article is done BEFORE WOW hit 10M but close enough (when WOW has 9.3M subscribers).
http://random-battle.com/2007/11/30/how-raiding-hurts-wow-more-than-it-helps/
Some quotes:
"WoW has 9.3 million customers, 7.3 million of which have never even defeated a boss in any of these zones."
That is a whopping 78% of the players who are not raiding.
Now I don't count pvp or crafting epics because those are a LOT easier to get (just grinding pvp) than 25-man raids. Those are really not that hardcore. You just need to grind.
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc.
And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
Once again, I pick ONE example. many other MMOs have been modded with important, "how would we ever live without it" features.
Of course, yes, it would be possible to develop mods on a PC and then download them to a console. After all, the games themselves are developed on PCs.
However, you then lose the community dynamic. Not everyone will want to download an SDK for EVERY game they play, when on a PC all you need is a few common tools, I.E. photoshop, 3dmax, etc.
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc? Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Ok, off the modability rant....to the "instant gratification" trend of console gamers.
MMOs require that you spend time developing a character, spend time making a place for yourself in the community, questing for items, raiding....etc. All very time consuming activities, as we all know.
I don't see many "plug and play, I want it now, instant gratification" console users spending that time, really. And I don't see them playing any console MMO for very long.
So what we would end up with is a MMO with a subscriber base that wanders off after a month to play the new Guitar Hero, or what-not.
Console gamers are, simply because of their need for simplicity, instant gratification, and low attention span, not a good target audience for an MMO.