The modability argument: MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini But today consoles seems to support a limited mod ability, trough downloable content. Is really a pain in the ass for the authors, because need to be checked by the console owner, but once is allowed, I bet is posible to able a simple interface to download and install mods. Something like Firefox extensions. Of course, these mods will be developed on a PC. The PC has better graphic editors and text editors. Your target architecture could be different than your dev architecture. You could make a game for Windows in Linux, compiling for windows. John Carmack created Quake in a type of UNIX OS, then compiled it for MS-DOS. Modders could create mods and test then on the console, in a offline test mode, or something. ALWAYS will be faster and easier to mod for the PC, but is posible to mod for the console.
I beg to differ.
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc.
And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
Once again, I pick ONE example. many other MMOs have been modded with important, "how would we ever live without it" features.
Of course, yes, it would be possible to develop mods on a PC and then download them to a console. After all, the games themselves are developed on PCs.
However, you then lose the community dynamic. Not everyone will want to download an SDK for EVERY game they play, when on a PC all you need is a few common tools, I.E. photoshop, 3dmax, etc.
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc? Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Ok, off the modability rant....to the "instant gratification" trend of console gamers.
MMOs require that you spend time developing a character, spend time making a place for yourself in the community, questing for items, raiding....etc. All very time consuming activities, as we all know.
I don't see many "plug and play, I want it now, instant gratification" console users spending that time, really. And I don't see them playing any console MMO for very long.
So what we would end up with is a MMO with a subscriber base that wanders off after a month to play the new Guitar Hero, or what-not.
Console gamers are, simply because of their need for simplicity, instant gratification, and low attention span, not a good target audience for an MMO.
I have said all of this before, the thing is people just refuse to acknowledge these realities and say, "Well, if they want it to happen they'll call the impossible fairy and use magic to make it happen." And just to clarify (not to put words in your mouth), but when just about ANYBODY turns on their console they are looking for exactly what is said above; instant gratification and simple, fast-paced fun. Mmo's are -not- about that, they require persistent effort over time to improve your character and/or your guild as a whole. Do you think FPSs would be popular if you started off with a blunt knife, then it took you four hours to find a sharp one, then a full day to find a pistol and a week to find a shotgun? Hell no, it would take to long to get to the real meat and bones of the game (blowing stuff up). And no, that's not a fantastic analogy, but it's pretty damn close enough.
As for cross-platform releases, I'm going to go ahead and repeat my interface argument -again-. I've given it like three times, in-depth in this topic, flip back a page or two and find one.
The simple fact is a lot of the greatest games have been kept alive for nearly a decade or more through modders. I personally haven't looked much at console mods, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority if not all of them are made by the company that made the game to begin with. Any mod you make for a console today you -have- to get permission from probably both the game developer and the console manufacturer to even distribute it. Where as with PC's, you make a mod, you put it on fileplanet, anyone can download it and install it, end of story.
Oh and modding in MMOs is, if anything, a growing trend due largely to WoW. Go ahead and look up different wow add-ons from sites like fileplanet, fileshack, etc. Millions of people download mods for WoW simply because a lot of them have become pretty much standard. Not to mention, Blizzard has even made certain graphical mods (how damage is displayed, etc.) part of the standard game code due to how popular they were. I'd go so far to say that a large part of WoW's continued popularity is due to the player mod community.
Oh and back to the guy still arguing with me about the whole WoW and raiding thing. How old is that article? I didn't even bother looking. In WoW today the entry-level raid is a 10-person dungeon and if you go to wowjutsu.com roughly 80%+ of guilds on just about every server have been in or cleared Karazhan, sooooooooooo, yeah.
Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan As far as that 70% of MMO gamers -leaning- (key word there, LEANING) towards the hardcore spectrum of gaming it's personal experience. They may not start out as hardcore gamers, but as I have stated, mmos exploit competativeness far more than any other genre currently does (again, my opinion). Let me put it to you this way; What happens when you see some character running about with some uber, really shiny piece of gear? A lot of the time most people go, "Man, I so freaking want that!" and thus level ever harder in order to obtain said item. In that instance a casual gamer might, for a time at least, be turned into what many would call "hardcore" out of the urge to compete.
I think WOW pretty much has shown that your statement is NOT true. In fact, the majority of WOW players have never seen the inside of a raid dungeon.
Furthermore, the need to "get stuff" does not necessarily equate the need to go hardcore. I can see casual players gravitate towards easier, grinding games like Maple stories. You can do something like Maple Story *easy* on a console.
So you're fact, have anything to support that? Because of the two different servers I have played on as alliance and horde respectively practically every person I ran into had at least one end game epic from either pvp (technically still a raid) or from one of the raids themselves. So, again, based on personal experience I'd say more people play into end game content than not.
And...wow you really went there. Maple Story? You really think Maple Story would attract ps3 or 360 owners in enough of a way to warrant porting it? You do realize that when any game developer pushes an mmo they promote the grander (end game) aspects of the game, right? Most Western gamers don't really care for mindless grinding, they want to do the fun stuff, the actual content and what not.
Of course. Here is ONE article talking about STATISTICS (as opposed to your anecdotal evidence which is drawn from a SMALL sample and cannot be accurate). This article is done BEFORE WOW hit 10M but close enough (when WOW has 9.3M subscribers).
"WoW has 9.3 million customers, 7.3 million of which have never even defeated a boss in any of these zones."
That is a whopping 78% of the players who are not raiding.
Now I don't count pvp or crafting epics because those are a LOT easier to get (just grinding pvp) than 25-man raids. Those are really not that hardcore. You just need to grind.
And just to add, you do realize that when you raid the bosses -do not- drop everything on their loot table, right? You end up grinding through the raids over and over again to get everything you want. It's not any different than grinding BG's; you aren't going to do one battleground and get all the pvp gear you want either. It's all basically still grinding, just different sides of the same coin.
Edit: Just looked at the article you posted which even proves the number of people that have gone into raids from wowjustsu.com itself. 99% Kara, 70% Gruuls (25-man), so thanks for proving my point and proving yourself wrong, genius.
And keep in mind wowjustu.com only keeps stats on wester servers, we have no idea what the raids are like in the asian market which comprises about 3/4 of WoW scrips anyway.
No matter what your opinion is about modding etc, an MMO can be successful and mostlikely will thrive on consoles. Raids will still happen, hardcore gamers will still exist.
I don't even get why you bothered to start the thread when all it really is is an "I am right, consoles MMOs will suck/never be successful" Nostrodomus?
Your posting opinions that harken back to the days when people claimed MMOs would never be successful and will always remain a niche genre.
Game developers now see the potential in both formats and will exploit the oppertunity for as much as they can. No one is saying you have to play on a console, but other people may choose to.
As I said, its all a matter of preference.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
No matter what your opinion is about modding etc, an MMO can be successful and mostlikely will thrive on consoles. Raids will still happen, hardcore gamers will still exist. I don't even get why you bothered to start the thread when all it really is is an "I am right, consoles MMOs will suck/never be successful" Nostrodomus? Your posting opinions that harken back to the days when people claimed MMOs would never be successful and will always remain a niche genre. Game developers now see the potential in both formats and will exploit the oppertunity for as much as they can. No one is saying you have to play on a console, but other people may choose to. As I said, its all a matter of preference.
More or less this is just a discussion of what the differences are, what is likely to happen should developers try to force such a market move and related subjects.
The fact is that, yes, I am predicting the move will fail miserably. However, in the process developers -will- alienate their original, core community that made mmorpgs what they are today.
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc. And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
I doubt is a good idea to able a bot in a mmo. Hell.. I even see code to unable the botability of a mmo.
IF you want to able bots and macroing, you could able to load python files, and have a python api there. Maybe these could be downloaded as signed jar files from modgames.xbox.microsoft.com
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc?
Thats a real problem. Even PC owners with 400 GB hard disk have this very problem. Imagine people with 40GB hard disks. ..
Originally posted by Wharg0ul Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Short reply:
NO.
Long reply:
Most games will use the 100% of the available resources, or maybe the 99.99%. So doubling the texture size ( x4 the memory useage at minimal) is a nono... in theory.
In practice, I bet most games swap textures from HD/Disc in a dinamic way. If you enhance the textures, you will get more swapping, that is the HD will work more, the disc will read more. And some lag's here and there. Somewhat un-optimal, but will look like better than real life.
Modders *ALWAYS* get a way to mod whatever. Hell.. the first mods where hacked executables. Because these executabled did have the HP of the monsters hardcoders, so some random guy figured out the offset, and edited that with a hexeditor. So monsters with 40 HP become megamonsters with 65535 HP...and then, modding whas born.
SDK are wellcome, but modding don't really need it. If theres enough interest on games, there will be always a dude that will break the files encoding, and stuff.. mostly hacking stuff.
You do realize that those are just names right? Those "add-ons" had nothing to do with botting, they were helpful tools to get information, that's about it.
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc. And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
I doubt is a good idea to able a bot in a mmo. Hell.. I even see code to unable the botability of a mmo.
IF you want to able bots and macroing, you could able to load python files, and have a python api there. Maybe these could be downloaded as signed jar files from modgames.xbox.microsoft.com
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc?
Thats a real problem. Even PC owners with 400 GB hard disk have this very problem. Imagine people with 40GB hard disks. ..
Originally posted by Wharg0ul Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Short reply:
NO.
Long reply:
Most games will use the 100% of the available resources, or maybe the 99.99%. So doubling the texture size ( x4 the memory useage at minimal) is a nono... in theory.
In practice, I bet most games swap textures from HD/Disc in a dinamic way. If you enhance the textures, you will get more swapping, that is the HD will work more, the disc will read more. And some lag's here and there. Somewhat un-optimal, but will look like better than real life.
Modders *ALWAYS* get a way to mod whatever. Hell.. the first mods where hacked executables. Because these executabled did have the HP of the monsters hardcoders, so some random guy figured out the offset, and edited that with a hexeditor. So monsters with 40 HP become megamonsters with 65535 HP...and then, modding whas born.
SDK are wellcome, but modding don't really need it. If theres enough interest on games, there will be always a dude that will break the files encoding, and stuff.. mostly hacking stuff.
Uhhh, wow you really just need to think about things before you type bub. All you did with that post is just completely agree with Whargoul and further prove his, and my, points.
At this point, there is virtually no difference in the two platforms. The only true difference is that consoles are designed entirely around the user and the ideal of making gaming easier and more accessible to the user. You don't think, you just push a button and you play a game. PC's involve more user modification to operate applications.
I can simplify this further. Consoles developers are forced to make games inside the standard of hardware that ALL users have. PC developers must choose a degree of hardware and software ability and program according to that...forcing the user to meet the new demand. Consoles actually are completely able to deal with mods. In fact, next gen stuff will be well beyond ready for mass amounts of mods. The real situation has nothing to do with the user...but the dev/ The guy making stuff has to make it according to what the console is, and that only serves to make it easier on the user.
All told, I wish PC guys were more like this. The PC elite are making the whole process difficult for normal users by contantly upping the ante on hardware demands. I'd actually be glad to be rid of you PC elite, because all you've managed to do is drain my pocketbook every year with your silly "hardcore" wet dream.
I'll be first in line for console MMO's. Easier on me, better for me. Less hassle and less constant maintenance of my PC. You hardcore cats can rot for all I care.
No matter what your opinion is about modding etc, an MMO can be successful and mostlikely will thrive on consoles. Raids will still happen, hardcore gamers will still exist. I don't even get why you bothered to start the thread when all it really is is an "I am right, consoles MMOs will suck/never be successful" Nostrodomus? Your posting opinions that harken back to the days when people claimed MMOs would never be successful and will always remain a niche genre. Game developers now see the potential in both formats and will exploit the oppertunity for as much as they can. No one is saying you have to play on a console, but other people may choose to. As I said, its all a matter of preference.
More or less this is just a discussion of what the differences are, what is likely to happen should developers try to force such a market move and related subjects.
The fact is that, yes, I am predicting the move will fail miserably. However, in the process developers -will- alienate their original, core community that made mmorpgs what they are today.
True, they will alienate some of the core community, but most people will just adapt to the changes while people new to the whole thing will enter the genre. It won't be the same type of hardcore player your talking about, but hardcore players will still exist.
As for failing, I doubt it. People said the same thing about online play on consoles failing back in the day, but it hasn't, and now is more of a staple. It won't be a forced move, just expanding upon a current base and opening up the genre to more players. A lot of companies may not even bother getting into the idea for a while, they will probably sit back and watch others try it to see where they fail/succeed and go from there.
They realize the untapped potential, just as Blizzard did when they were planning WoW, and they will go ahead and make the games. And just like all the core MMO fans that claimed WoW was too simple/easy/causal friendly, Blizzard proved that the masses are a larger population than the core are.
Hardcore is just a term, not a lifestyle. There will always be someone who is more 'hardcore' than the next. And you can't base anything off a term.
I am a hardcore gamer because I play/played almost every game out there, can remember every tiny detail of a game, etc. I really don't like raiding, and don't really care if I have everything someone else has.
Your a hardcore gamer because you like to raid and have total control over your game and like to mod, etc. You like raiding and want what everyone else has.
Who is more hardcore then?
Its all symantics, preference and ideas. In the end, we both are, but under different terms.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
At this point, there is virtually no difference in the two platforms. The only true difference is that consoles are designed entirely around the user and the ideal of making gaming easier and more accessible to the user. You don't think, you just push a button and you play a game. PC's involve more user modification to operate applications.
I can simplify this further. Consoles developers are forced to make games inside the standard of hardware that ALL users have. PC developers must choose a degree of hardware and software ability and program according to that...forcing the user to meet the new demand. Consoles actually are completely able to deal with mods. In fact, next gen stuff will be well beyond ready for mass amounts of mods. The real situation has nothing to do with the user...but the dev/ The guy making stuff has to make it according to what the console is, and that only serves to make it easier on the user. All told, I wish PC guys were more like this. The PC elite are making the whole process difficult for normal users by contantly upping the ante on hardware demands. I'd actually be glad to be rid of you PC elite, because all you've managed to do is drain my pocketbook every year with your silly "hardcore" wet dream. I'll be first in line for console MMO's. Easier on me, better for me. Less hassle and less constant maintenance of my PC. You hardcore cats can rot for all I care.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
At this point, there is virtually no difference in the two platforms. The only true difference is that consoles are designed entirely around the user and the ideal of making gaming easier and more accessible to the user. You don't think, you just push a button and you play a game. PC's involve more user modification to operate applications.
I can simplify this further. Consoles developers are forced to make games inside the standard of hardware that ALL users have. PC developers must choose a degree of hardware and software ability and program according to that...forcing the user to meet the new demand. Consoles actually are completely able to deal with mods. In fact, next gen stuff will be well beyond ready for mass amounts of mods. The real situation has nothing to do with the user...but the dev/ The guy making stuff has to make it according to what the console is, and that only serves to make it easier on the user. All told, I wish PC guys were more like this. The PC elite are making the whole process difficult for normal users by contantly upping the ante on hardware demands. I'd actually be glad to be rid of you PC elite, because all you've managed to do is drain my pocketbook every year with your silly "hardcore" wet dream. I'll be first in line for console MMO's. Easier on me, better for me. Less hassle and less constant maintenance of my PC. You hardcore cats can rot for all I care.
9 pages that you apparently didn't bother to read before posting.
lol I like the part of that article that say " Refrain from pointing out that with the chunk of change they dropped prepping their rig for a nonexistent title, they could've bought any next-gen console they pleased and an ass load of great games.."
If I wanted to play a shaved down E rated version of something of course I would play console, but I like the full experience and pref. at 80 fps along with some blood...
Don't hate me cause I can afford the computer you want but can't have.
Don't confuse a players ability, with a class being Over Powered.
Also, for a minimal investment, PC owners can pick up a PCI-E to AGP bridge chip, allowing them to use newer graphics cards without upgrading their entire system.
Consoles are toys and are killing computer MMORPGs by trying to make all games appeal to the simpleton Nintendo crowd.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
The modability argument: MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini
Ah, we're not talking about editing the *.ini, but making mod extensions to games -- scripting/new levels/3D modelling/voice dialogue/graphics, etc. -- to extend the life of games. That's not possible with consoles, nor can consoles be used to edit them.
It's yet another reason why I wouldn't buy a console. For the price, I could get a first generation videocard or proc -- to be able to mod a new level, or better, add new 3D models to the game.
Summation - Consoles are toys and are killing computer MMORPGs by trying to make all games appeal to the simpleton Nintendo crowd.
Right on the money. This will result in major back-steps in the MMORPG community as far as creating immerssive, detailed and strategic content.
Total naiveté
If anything you can thank WoW for making MMOs appeal to everyone. It doesn't really matter which system a game is on, a PC game is just as simple as a console game. If you look at current games, you will see they are almost all multiplatform and offer the same level of gameplay. The only real differences are the minor system specific bonuses (added level here, different weapon there) used to persuade a costumer.
And if you haven't noticed the current state of MMOs, graphics are all being tuned down to appeal to the masses who don't own a cutting edge system. Gone are the days of the uber impressive graphical superiority races.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
MMORPG don't need much customization anyway. Hell... Vanguard used to nuke your changes on config.ini
Ah, we're not talking about editing the *.ini, but making mod extensions to games -- scripting/new levels/3D modelling/voice dialogue/graphics, etc. -- to extend the life of games. That's not possible with consoles, nor can consoles be used to edit them.
It's yet another reason why I wouldn't buy a console. For the price, I could get a first generation videocard or proc -- to be able to mod a new level, or better, add new 3D models to the game.
Downloadable content is no substitute.
Most of what you mention is geared more toward single player style games, not MMO/persistant worlds. The game companies can create all the updates as they do now, and can be easily downloaded and patched just as we do now.
If your talking about creating personal servers and running hacked copies of a game, thats something totally different. If your talking about something like user content for games like NWN, again, thats different.
As for buying new PC upgrades, yeah, the whole reason companies are looking to consoles is for the fact that they wont have to worry about new hardware configs and the countless "GameX doesn't work with my new Nvidia AAA10001GTX OC vid card! Fix it fix it fix it!!" posts filling up tech support forums on a daily basis.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Games designed specifically for the PC tend to take advantage of the platform's power. STALKER and Crysis come to mind almost immediately.
True we have at the MOMENT an era of cross-platform development, since with the newest gen of consoles, they can actually play some of the games that PC gamers enjoy. But this will change, as it always does. PCs will continue to become more advanced, and PC games will advance with them. Consoles by their nature will not advance until the next generation of machines are released.
Meaning of course that next year, when PC gamers are enjoying the benefits of new technology, consoles will still be stuck with what will be dated tech.
Also, as far as MMO modding is concerned, as I've mentioned we have UI mods, scripts, enhanced maps, and a whole slew of wonderful tools.
Most of what you mention is geared more toward single player style games, not MMO/persistant worlds.
This topic is PC vs Console, not SP vs. MMO.
Consoles are toys -- remember the only one I had back in the late 70s (the better Magnovox). It was the last time I had one, too. No scalability. No tweaking. Just plug n play.
If I get a game, I will customize it. It's just the nature of modders.
Most of what you mention is geared more toward single player style games, not MMO/persistant worlds.
This topic is PC vs Console, not SP vs. MMO.
Consoles are toys -- remember the only one I had back in the late 70s (the better Magnovox). It was the last time I had one, too. No scalability. No tweaking. Just plug n play.
If I get a game, I will customize it. It's just the nature of modders.
Actually the title maybe PC vs. Console, but the main question was based on if MMOs could be successful on consoles.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Consoles are not going to kill mmos and consoles are prolly going to have mods in the near future also. And RTS games are slowly changing to voice commands anyway, a good example is Tom Clancys EndWar which can be played all with voice commands. Right now PC is better for shooting games cuz of targeting but to me the movement is more easier with console controlls. Plus consoles can use keyboards and mouse too now. I am glad video games are spreading more to different people. And console gamers are not simpletons. I am neutral since I play both PC and console games.
Consoles are not going to kill mmos and consoles are prolly going to have mods in the near future also. And RTS games are slowly changing to voice commands anyway, a good example is Tom Clancys EndWar which can be played all with voice commands. Right now PC is better for shooting games cuz of targeting but to me the movement is more easier with console controlls. Plus consoles can use keyboards and mouse too now. I am glad video games are spreading more to different people. And console gamers are not simpletons. I am neutral since I play both PC and console games.
Keyboards and mice on consoles are simply their way of trying to make up for not being a PC.
On the flip side of that argument, a PC user could go buy one of the thousands of different controllers available.
Modding for console games will not in the forseeable future reach the flexability that we see on the PC. A few common tools will let you mod almost any PC game, and those mods can be hosted for download on a multitude of locations.
Comments
Let's look at good old Anarchy Online as an example this time. Due to moddability, we were able to reskin and alter the UI to suit our tastes, insert custom map packs with marked locations, zone borders, etc.
And although not really a "mod", let's not forget Helpbot, Itemsnet, Recibebot, etc. I don't see anyone being able to script a bot on a console.
Once again, I pick ONE example. many other MMOs have been modded with important, "how would we ever live without it" features.
Of course, yes, it would be possible to develop mods on a PC and then download them to a console. After all, the games themselves are developed on PCs.
However, you then lose the community dynamic. Not everyone will want to download an SDK for EVERY game they play, when on a PC all you need is a few common tools, I.E. photoshop, 3dmax, etc.
How fast will your little consoles run out of HDD space, once you start adding 1.6gb texture mods, 300mb Facial mesh mods, etc? Will it have enough memory to hold high resolution large textures, with a decent visibility distance?
Ok, off the modability rant....to the "instant gratification" trend of console gamers.
MMOs require that you spend time developing a character, spend time making a place for yourself in the community, questing for items, raiding....etc. All very time consuming activities, as we all know.
I don't see many "plug and play, I want it now, instant gratification" console users spending that time, really. And I don't see them playing any console MMO for very long.
So what we would end up with is a MMO with a subscriber base that wanders off after a month to play the new Guitar Hero, or what-not.
Console gamers are, simply because of their need for simplicity, instant gratification, and low attention span, not a good target audience for an MMO.
I have said all of this before, the thing is people just refuse to acknowledge these realities and say, "Well, if they want it to happen they'll call the impossible fairy and use magic to make it happen." And just to clarify (not to put words in your mouth), but when just about ANYBODY turns on their console they are looking for exactly what is said above; instant gratification and simple, fast-paced fun. Mmo's are -not- about that, they require persistent effort over time to improve your character and/or your guild as a whole. Do you think FPSs would be popular if you started off with a blunt knife, then it took you four hours to find a sharp one, then a full day to find a pistol and a week to find a shotgun? Hell no, it would take to long to get to the real meat and bones of the game (blowing stuff up). And no, that's not a fantastic analogy, but it's pretty damn close enough.As for cross-platform releases, I'm going to go ahead and repeat my interface argument -again-. I've given it like three times, in-depth in this topic, flip back a page or two and find one.
The simple fact is a lot of the greatest games have been kept alive for nearly a decade or more through modders. I personally haven't looked much at console mods, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority if not all of them are made by the company that made the game to begin with. Any mod you make for a console today you -have- to get permission from probably both the game developer and the console manufacturer to even distribute it. Where as with PC's, you make a mod, you put it on fileplanet, anyone can download it and install it, end of story.
Oh and modding in MMOs is, if anything, a growing trend due largely to WoW. Go ahead and look up different wow add-ons from sites like fileplanet, fileshack, etc. Millions of people download mods for WoW simply because a lot of them have become pretty much standard. Not to mention, Blizzard has even made certain graphical mods (how damage is displayed, etc.) part of the standard game code due to how popular they were. I'd go so far to say that a large part of WoW's continued popularity is due to the player mod community.
Oh and back to the guy still arguing with me about the whole WoW and raiding thing. How old is that article? I didn't even bother looking. In WoW today the entry-level raid is a 10-person dungeon and if you go to wowjutsu.com roughly 80%+ of guilds on just about every server have been in or cleared Karazhan, sooooooooooo, yeah.
I think WOW pretty much has shown that your statement is NOT true. In fact, the majority of WOW players have never seen the inside of a raid dungeon.
Furthermore, the need to "get stuff" does not necessarily equate the need to go hardcore. I can see casual players gravitate towards easier, grinding games like Maple stories. You can do something like Maple Story *easy* on a console.
So you're fact, have anything to support that? Because of the two different servers I have played on as alliance and horde respectively practically every person I ran into had at least one end game epic from either pvp (technically still a raid) or from one of the raids themselves. So, again, based on personal experience I'd say more people play into end game content than not.And...wow you really went there. Maple Story? You really think Maple Story would attract ps3 or 360 owners in enough of a way to warrant porting it? You do realize that when any game developer pushes an mmo they promote the grander (end game) aspects of the game, right? Most Western gamers don't really care for mindless grinding, they want to do the fun stuff, the actual content and what not.
Of course. Here is ONE article talking about STATISTICS (as opposed to your anecdotal evidence which is drawn from a SMALL sample and cannot be accurate). This article is done BEFORE WOW hit 10M but close enough (when WOW has 9.3M subscribers).
http://random-battle.com/2007/11/30/how-raiding-hurts-wow-more-than-it-helps/
Some quotes:
"WoW has 9.3 million customers, 7.3 million of which have never even defeated a boss in any of these zones."
That is a whopping 78% of the players who are not raiding.
Now I don't count pvp or crafting epics because those are a LOT easier to get (just grinding pvp) than 25-man raids. Those are really not that hardcore. You just need to grind.
And just to add, you do realize that when you raid the bosses -do not- drop everything on their loot table, right? You end up grinding through the raids over and over again to get everything you want. It's not any different than grinding BG's; you aren't going to do one battleground and get all the pvp gear you want either. It's all basically still grinding, just different sides of the same coin.
Edit: Just looked at the article you posted which even proves the number of people that have gone into raids from wowjustsu.com itself. 99% Kara, 70% Gruuls (25-man), so thanks for proving my point and proving yourself wrong, genius.
And keep in mind wowjustu.com only keeps stats on wester servers, we have no idea what the raids are like in the asian market which comprises about 3/4 of WoW scrips anyway.
No matter what your opinion is about modding etc, an MMO can be successful and mostlikely will thrive on consoles. Raids will still happen, hardcore gamers will still exist.
I don't even get why you bothered to start the thread when all it really is is an "I am right, consoles MMOs will suck/never be successful" Nostrodomus?
Your posting opinions that harken back to the days when people claimed MMOs would never be successful and will always remain a niche genre.
Game developers now see the potential in both formats and will exploit the oppertunity for as much as they can. No one is saying you have to play on a console, but other people may choose to.
As I said, its all a matter of preference.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The fact is that, yes, I am predicting the move will fail miserably. However, in the process developers -will- alienate their original, core community that made mmorpgs what they are today.
I doubt is a good idea to able a bot in a mmo. Hell.. I even see code to unable the botability of a mmo.
IF you want to able bots and macroing, you could able to load python files, and have a python api there. Maybe these could be downloaded as signed jar files from modgames.xbox.microsoft.com
Imagine typing this in Halo MMO:
http://modgames.xbox.microsoft.com/mods/haloMMO/teiman.jar
[ Install this mod] [Preview mod]
Thats a real problem. Even PC owners with 400 GB hard disk have this very problem. Imagine people with 40GB hard disks. ..
Short reply:
NO.
Long reply:
Most games will use the 100% of the available resources, or maybe the 99.99%. So doubling the texture size ( x4 the memory useage at minimal) is a nono... in theory.
In practice, I bet most games swap textures from HD/Disc in a dinamic way. If you enhance the textures, you will get more swapping, that is the HD will work more, the disc will read more. And some lag's here and there. Somewhat un-optimal, but will look like better than real life.
Modders *ALWAYS* get a way to mod whatever. Hell.. the first mods where hacked executables. Because these executabled did have the HP of the monsters hardcoders, so some random guy figured out the offset, and edited that with a hexeditor. So monsters with 40 HP become megamonsters with 65535 HP...and then, modding whas born.
SDK are wellcome, but modding don't really need it. If theres enough interest on games, there will be always a dude that will break the files encoding, and stuff.. mostly hacking stuff.
You do realize that those are just names right? Those "add-ons" had nothing to do with botting, they were helpful tools to get information, that's about it.
I doubt is a good idea to able a bot in a mmo. Hell.. I even see code to unable the botability of a mmo.
IF you want to able bots and macroing, you could able to load python files, and have a python api there. Maybe these could be downloaded as signed jar files from modgames.xbox.microsoft.com
Imagine typing this in Halo MMO:
http://modgames.xbox.microsoft.com/mods/haloMMO/teiman.jar
[ Install this mod] [Preview mod]
Thats a real problem. Even PC owners with 400 GB hard disk have this very problem. Imagine people with 40GB hard disks. ..
Short reply:
NO.
Long reply:
Most games will use the 100% of the available resources, or maybe the 99.99%. So doubling the texture size ( x4 the memory useage at minimal) is a nono... in theory.
In practice, I bet most games swap textures from HD/Disc in a dinamic way. If you enhance the textures, you will get more swapping, that is the HD will work more, the disc will read more. And some lag's here and there. Somewhat un-optimal, but will look like better than real life.
Modders *ALWAYS* get a way to mod whatever. Hell.. the first mods where hacked executables. Because these executabled did have the HP of the monsters hardcoders, so some random guy figured out the offset, and edited that with a hexeditor. So monsters with 40 HP become megamonsters with 65535 HP...and then, modding whas born.
SDK are wellcome, but modding don't really need it. If theres enough interest on games, there will be always a dude that will break the files encoding, and stuff.. mostly hacking stuff.
Uhhh, wow you really just need to think about things before you type bub. All you did with that post is just completely agree with Whargoul and further prove his, and my, points.
There is no debate, PC ftw.
The day a console can compete with a pc (performance wise) you will be paying just as much for it as a gaming PC.
Don't confuse a players ability, with a class being Over Powered.
-T
9 pages of thread wasted in my opinion.
At this point, there is virtually no difference in the two platforms. The only true difference is that consoles are designed entirely around the user and the ideal of making gaming easier and more accessible to the user. You don't think, you just push a button and you play a game. PC's involve more user modification to operate applications.
I can simplify this further. Consoles developers are forced to make games inside the standard of hardware that ALL users have. PC developers must choose a degree of hardware and software ability and program according to that...forcing the user to meet the new demand. Consoles actually are completely able to deal with mods. In fact, next gen stuff will be well beyond ready for mass amounts of mods. The real situation has nothing to do with the user...but the dev/ The guy making stuff has to make it according to what the console is, and that only serves to make it easier on the user.
All told, I wish PC guys were more like this. The PC elite are making the whole process difficult for normal users by contantly upping the ante on hardware demands. I'd actually be glad to be rid of you PC elite, because all you've managed to do is drain my pocketbook every year with your silly "hardcore" wet dream.
I'll be first in line for console MMO's. Easier on me, better for me. Less hassle and less constant maintenance of my PC. You hardcore cats can rot for all I care.
The fact is that, yes, I am predicting the move will fail miserably. However, in the process developers -will- alienate their original, core community that made mmorpgs what they are today.
True, they will alienate some of the core community, but most people will just adapt to the changes while people new to the whole thing will enter the genre. It won't be the same type of hardcore player your talking about, but hardcore players will still exist.
As for failing, I doubt it. People said the same thing about online play on consoles failing back in the day, but it hasn't, and now is more of a staple. It won't be a forced move, just expanding upon a current base and opening up the genre to more players. A lot of companies may not even bother getting into the idea for a while, they will probably sit back and watch others try it to see where they fail/succeed and go from there.
They realize the untapped potential, just as Blizzard did when they were planning WoW, and they will go ahead and make the games. And just like all the core MMO fans that claimed WoW was too simple/easy/causal friendly, Blizzard proved that the masses are a larger population than the core are.
Hardcore is just a term, not a lifestyle. There will always be someone who is more 'hardcore' than the next. And you can't base anything off a term.
I am a hardcore gamer because I play/played almost every game out there, can remember every tiny detail of a game, etc. I really don't like raiding, and don't really care if I have everything someone else has.
Your a hardcore gamer because you like to raid and have total control over your game and like to mod, etc. You like raiding and want what everyone else has.
Who is more hardcore then?
Its all symantics, preference and ideas. In the end, we both are, but under different terms.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
www.gamesradar.com/f/the-top-7-stereotypical-gamers-we-hate/a-2008032410612871091/p-4
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
9 pages that you apparently didn't bother to read before posting.
lol I like the part of that article that say " Refrain from pointing out that with the chunk of change they dropped prepping their rig for a nonexistent title, they could've bought any next-gen console they pleased and an ass load of great games.."
If I wanted to play a shaved down E rated version of something of course I would play console, but I like the full experience and pref. at 80 fps along with some blood...
Don't hate me cause I can afford the computer you want but can't have.
Don't confuse a players ability, with a class being Over Powered.
-T
Also, for a minimal investment, PC owners can pick up a PCI-E to AGP bridge chip, allowing them to use newer graphics cards without upgrading their entire system.
Summation -
Consoles are toys and are killing computer MMORPGs by trying to make all games appeal to the simpleton Nintendo crowd.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Right on the money. This will result in major back-steps in the MMORPG community as far as creating immerssive, detailed and strategic content.
Ah, we're not talking about editing the *.ini, but making mod extensions to games -- scripting/new levels/3D modelling/voice dialogue/graphics, etc. -- to extend the life of games. That's not possible with consoles, nor can consoles be used to edit them.
It's yet another reason why I wouldn't buy a console. For the price, I could get a first generation videocard or proc -- to be able to mod a new level, or better, add new 3D models to the game.
Downloadable content is no substitute.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Right on the money. This will result in major back-steps in the MMORPG community as far as creating immerssive, detailed and strategic content.
Total naivetéIf anything you can thank WoW for making MMOs appeal to everyone. It doesn't really matter which system a game is on, a PC game is just as simple as a console game. If you look at current games, you will see they are almost all multiplatform and offer the same level of gameplay. The only real differences are the minor system specific bonuses (added level here, different weapon there) used to persuade a costumer.
And if you haven't noticed the current state of MMOs, graphics are all being tuned down to appeal to the masses who don't own a cutting edge system. Gone are the days of the uber impressive graphical superiority races.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Ah, we're not talking about editing the *.ini, but making mod extensions to games -- scripting/new levels/3D modelling/voice dialogue/graphics, etc. -- to extend the life of games. That's not possible with consoles, nor can consoles be used to edit them.
It's yet another reason why I wouldn't buy a console. For the price, I could get a first generation videocard or proc -- to be able to mod a new level, or better, add new 3D models to the game.
Downloadable content is no substitute.
Most of what you mention is geared more toward single player style games, not MMO/persistant worlds. The game companies can create all the updates as they do now, and can be easily downloaded and patched just as we do now.
If your talking about creating personal servers and running hacked copies of a game, thats something totally different. If your talking about something like user content for games like NWN, again, thats different.
As for buying new PC upgrades, yeah, the whole reason companies are looking to consoles is for the fact that they wont have to worry about new hardware configs and the countless "GameX doesn't work with my new Nvidia AAA10001GTX OC vid card! Fix it fix it fix it!!" posts filling up tech support forums on a daily basis.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Not true, Fyerwall.
Games designed specifically for the PC tend to take advantage of the platform's power. STALKER and Crysis come to mind almost immediately.
True we have at the MOMENT an era of cross-platform development, since with the newest gen of consoles, they can actually play some of the games that PC gamers enjoy. But this will change, as it always does. PCs will continue to become more advanced, and PC games will advance with them. Consoles by their nature will not advance until the next generation of machines are released.
Meaning of course that next year, when PC gamers are enjoying the benefits of new technology, consoles will still be stuck with what will be dated tech.
Also, as far as MMO modding is concerned, as I've mentioned we have UI mods, scripts, enhanced maps, and a whole slew of wonderful tools.
This topic is PC vs Console, not SP vs. MMO.
Consoles are toys -- remember the only one I had back in the late 70s (the better Magnovox). It was the last time I had one, too. No scalability. No tweaking. Just plug n play.
If I get a game, I will customize it. It's just the nature of modders.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Exactly! There is only one exception: Colossus.
This topic is PC vs Console, not SP vs. MMO.
Consoles are toys -- remember the only one I had back in the late 70s (the better Magnovox). It was the last time I had one, too. No scalability. No tweaking. Just plug n play.
If I get a game, I will customize it. It's just the nature of modders.
Actually the title maybe PC vs. Console, but the main question was based on if MMOs could be successful on consoles.There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Consoles are not going to kill mmos and consoles are prolly going to have mods in the near future also. And RTS games are slowly changing to voice commands anyway, a good example is Tom Clancys EndWar which can be played all with voice commands. Right now PC is better for shooting games cuz of targeting but to me the movement is more easier with console controlls. Plus consoles can use keyboards and mouse too now. I am glad video games are spreading more to different people. And console gamers are not simpletons. I am neutral since I play both PC and console games.
On the flip side of that argument, a PC user could go buy one of the thousands of different controllers available.
Modding for console games will not in the forseeable future reach the flexability that we see on the PC. A few common tools will let you mod almost any PC game, and those mods can be hosted for download on a multitude of locations.