/amen It's the sad state of mmos, just videogames, not simulators anymore At least we have EvE Online
You half to go through a load screen in EVE also, and although you can go anywhere, just about "anywhere is nowhere" unless you follow routes... Also I can recall EQ1 had plenty of load screens, I dont think MMOs are becoming less free, less explorative, I think people are getting Pickier WHILE getting border of MMO's because in fact, they arent as umm Uncommon, i mean there has to be at least 5+ bigname developers making MMOs every year and tons of noname asian mmo's also. Lets face it, an MMO is NOT meant to be a simulator. Eve is still a good game so keep playin that, i couldnt stay with it after i discoved the 50th load zone with the exact same nebula/space cloud design. /repast zone, /mix content, /add differen moons and suns.
What is this nonsense about EVE Online having load screens post a screenshot please.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller !
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success
-------
R.I.P Massive
Up untill now AoC is even more dumb down massive maybe it hold 50 peeps a instance(map) but all dungeon(cant call dungeon instance anymore or we get confused becouse everything is instanced in AoC) are solo, after 40 i dont know yet, but at least in other mmorpgs you cant solo dungeons AoC you can lol.
Its funny because I bet not a single person on this thread has walked through even half of AOC. Small? They where merely not making it too large... Sure they could have made it just as large and uninstanced as vanguard, and guess what, it would have sucked, AOC would have lagged through the roof, servers would be down, bugs would fry your brains, Wait.... This is starting to sound like what happend in VANGUARD, which we all admit did not succeed? So the people on this forum want a simulator/explorative HUGE open world with too few instances and no loads? Welcome to (Vanguard saga of heroes) theres your dream MMO. Im not defending AOC but its freakin huge. Without loadsscreens, many peoples computers would be in the ER right now.
Vanguard was never a sandbox the fanbois that keep trying to claim its one are not familiar with the basic sandbox criteria
- Am I free to go to any part of the world in Vanguard no it has Levels thus there are mobs that will execute me if I'm a lowbie
- Am I free to pursue any career path I want no the Devs decided that for me
EVen wikipedia has a decent explanation of "sandbox" and Vanguard doesnt meet that criteria. Not to mention its yet another MMO with pointless world PVP no thank you we really only have EVE
put it this way if players can verify the endgame city pvp and such is pretty good then at least one can say AoC is step away from what some of these other shallow games have done.
On topic I do agree with the post. There's really not much to say or add. To AoC's credit they did try to integrate city building. I've been waiting to see what gamers think of it but no one has been posting much about it here
You might see a return of sandbox MMOs as MMO players develop and try different things.
At the moment people are largely experienced with other non-MMO games they play, that DO have structure and a certain amount of linearity to them.
Players develop and move onto other things. If structured games are what a majority of the players are after atm then that's what developers will make.
So if anything you could blame gamers for this change in MMO development
Yes EVE is popular as far as sandbox MMOs are concerned but in the grand scheme of things - http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html - it hardly counts at all.
The important thing is though, MMOs have become wildly popular thanks to WoW. It's brought more people and awareness to them instead of being some niche of the gaming industry that no-one really care to invest much in.
As for most WoWers being RTS players, I'd want to question that.
A lot of the WoWers I met during my time play hadn't played Warcraft at all but instead other RPGs and some had hardly played any games at all and started playing mainly because one or more of their friends were playing it.
You might see a return of sandbox MMOs as MMO players develop and try different things. At the moment people are largely experienced with other non-MMO games they play, that DO have structure and a certain amount of linearity to them. Players develop and move onto other things. If structured games are what a majority of the players are after atm then that's what developers will make. So if anything you could blame gamers for this change in MMO development Yes EVE is popular as far as sandbox MMOs are concerned but in the grand scheme of things - http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html - it hardly counts at all. The important thing is though, MMOs have become wildly popular thanks to WoW. It's brought more people and awareness to them instead of being some niche of the gaming industry that no-one really care to invest much in.
That chart you posted shows some things you appear to have missed:
EVE has bigger pie then many MMOs (like LOTRO, TR, CoX, etC)
1.5% of the pie is a nice income for a game dev.
Lastly and more importantly, that chart does not show the pie for all MMO. It doesnt include Second Life, a full fledged sandbox that has staggering yearly revenues.
It's a good chart though for subscription based MMOs but its not all inclusive. Doesnt tell the whole truth- just the truth for subscription based MMOs
I am curious why a developer is not aloud to have a successful title , like Lord of the Rings Online. Turbine created one of the first mmo's to satisfy the pvp crowd with AC . Why is is so bad that they felt they could make a commercial success, actually make a large amount of profit to fund new projects in the future ? I think throwing this none sense around just because YOU aren't happy with any mmo's right now is troll like. Blizzard didn't take anything away from mmo's, they brought in new players to the genre, 10 million of them who where mostly RTS players. All the mmo's before WoW probably still have the samer amount subscriptions as after WoW launched. Now that WoW is 4 years old developers are smart enough Like Turbine to create a game with the same ease of controlling and progressing , but in the same game they up the curve to bring those players into a steeper learning curve in the laters levels, helping them understand that mmo's wheren't just WoW, and giving them a taste of what an mmo could be. I feel you conclussions are very premature since this is the youngest genre in the industry.
UO was released in 1995 I think? and Diablo was its only main competition, I remember considering which to buy at the game store. So thats over.. 13 years. Please stop acting like Blizzard invented MMOs.
Now I'm sure you could argue a million more things they actually did take away, but that alone is my complaint, sorry but I like my games to have a LITTLE punishment for stupidity. This game hand feeds the idiots of the world.
I am curious why a developer is not aloud to have a successful title , like Lord of the Rings Online. Turbine created one of the first mmo's to satisfy the pvp crowd with AC . Why is is so bad that they felt they could make a commercial success, actually make a large amount of profit to fund new projects in the future ? I think throwing this none sense around just because YOU aren't happy with any mmo's right now is troll like. Blizzard didn't take anything away from mmo's, they brought in new players to the genre, 10 million of them who where mostly RTS players. All the mmo's before WoW probably still have the samer amount subscriptions as after WoW launched. Now that WoW is 4 years old developers are smart enough Like Turbine to create a game with the same ease of controlling and progressing , but in the same game they up the curve to bring those players into a steeper learning curve in the laters levels, helping them understand that mmo's wheren't just WoW, and giving them a taste of what an mmo could be. I feel you conclussions are very premature since this is the youngest genre in the industry.
I don't completly agreee with solerus, but certain a lot of truth with between this and the OPs posta. WOW has done a lot for the MMO industry, but at the same time made game developers less responsible in some ways.
What WOW did was actually pure genius in a lot of ways and it's hard to fault them for providing a game that appealed to millions of players. Certainly the MMO market has been very dry, but that really isn't the fault of WOW (the quality of games maybe), if anything WOW has encouraged developers to give it a try. Hopfully a game is somewhere on the horizon where the powers that be actually has identified the appeal and management of WOW with the ability to create a diverse game such as UO/SWG/ VAnguard.
I hope MMOs become cheaper, faster, and more practical to develop so some of these smaller companies can express their ideas...I think alot of them have good ones. But honestly, when WoW came out, I think we were really different as an MMO genre community. First off, there were alot fewer of us. Blizzard did a good job with making a "standard" MMO; one that isn't very free or complex but is a great gateway into the MMO market for new people. Unfortunately now companies see it as the way their MMO should be...but making MMOs is so time-consuming and expensive that in all reality I wouldn't make one if there was doubt I'd make a profit.
That's obviously why most new developers are kind of reluctant to try new things...and we all know how picky the MMO community is...some of us examine every game with a magnifying glass. Honestly in my opinion, I'm tired of WoW yes but I don't have any problem if a company builds on WoW's design and turns it into something great. You're staring at two huge mountains. You have to climb one of them because there's a big pile of cash at the top. The one on the left is less steep and has a nice ladder (WoW's basic design + improvements). The one on the right has jagged rocks and tiny footholds (something totally new). Which one would you take...
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Yeah according to the old NCSoft revenue statements GW actually outgrossed City of Heroes franchise by a wide margin through their clever "expansion" model.
Wasnt trying to steal your thunder though I am just disappointed Sir Bruce doesn't integrate revenue charts like that other mmorpg statistic site did. If Sir Bruce has such a chart on his site as well then forgive me I wasn't able to find it just now
Complex games are more complex to make. WoW's success.
Blizzard is a good (great?) company. WoW's success.
SIGIL was a bad company. Vanguard's failure.
SWG was unfortunately, and unwisely, butchered by SOE. SWG's failure.
EQ was unfortunately, and unwisely, made into a raid game by SOE. EQ's failure.
EQ 2 was unwisely called EQ 2; if it had a different name, different lore, a different launch, and different marketing ... probably would be much more successful. EQ 2's failure.
People want features, not graphics. Failure of graphics; success of features.
No company has been managed well to produce a good complex MMORPG.
The op mentioned Tabula Rasa as one of the instanced examples. Tabula rasa is an open world. There are some instanced dungeons like in WOW but each zone does not have many instances like AOC or DDO.
This is all because Western Developers have no balls to make risk. The Korean Market is overtaking the genre. Sure there were all those crappy L2 clones, but whats coming out now, ohh shit. AION is huge. Content, Massive World, Flying, Alternate Level Progression, Awesome Graphics, and all playing on a 386(lol j/k). RO2 is finally giving something new to the quest system, choice. No long is it hey go do this, you can atleast choose how you do it and it affects the outcome. Huxley is reviving the mmoFPS that hasn't had a hit since Planetside 6 years ago. The only thing on the Horizon in the West is Massively Instanced Battlegrounds.
The op mentioned Tabula Rasa as one of the instanced examples. Tabula rasa is an open world. There are some instanced dungeons like in WOW but each zone does not have many instances like AOC or DDO.
I gave TR a chance at launch. So I can 100% say with certainty at launch the ENTIRE region I was in was instanced. I dont know what the cap was but once it is reached the instance the entire sector
I think you might be talking bout something a little different
Complex games are more complex to make. WoW's success. Blizzard is a good company. WoW's success. SIGIL was a bad company. Vanguard's failure. SWG was unfortunately, and unwisely, butchered by SOE. SWG's failure. EQ was unfortunately, and unwisely, made into a raid game by SOE. EQ's failure. EQ 2 was unwisely called EQ 2; if it had a different name, different lore, a different launch, and different marketing ... probably would be much more successful. EQ 2's failure. People want features, not graphics. Failure of graphics; success of features.
No company has been managed well to produce a good complex MMORPG.
1) Disagree, people are ready for more than candy store fare, give people more credit.
2) Agreed, but it was equal parts right place right time.
3) Agreed
4) Agreed
5) Disagree, raiding wasn't the problem, SOE forgot 90% didn't raid and had no alternate plan for quality gear.
6) Conjecture.
7) Disagree: people want features & graphics... we can have both.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller ! ......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success ------- R.I.P Massive
Awesome, awesome analysis, Lobotomist. I've been considering writing a similiar thread under the title of either, "Are all MMOs produced on an assembly line now?" or "It turns out devs don't have any new ideas after all", but I couldn't have written it any better than you did.
I would just disagree with one point you make. I don't even think AoC is that fun. Oh it has some positive elements, but in my opinion, it suffers from City of Heroes syndrome. Quests are way too repetitve and there is very little diversity in the game.
The reason I couldn't have written as good of an analysis I think is because I never played WoW (I'm proud of that fact, btw). The current state of today's MMOs seem to be able to trace their style to that game. It is so unbelievably successful that other companies can't help but model their games after WoW. It's a shame too because WoW is the MMO version of cotton candy. It tastes good, but has little substance and dissolves quickly in your mouth.
I don't even think AoC is that fun. Oh it has some positive elements, but in my opinion, it suffers from City of Heroes syndrome. Quests are way too repetitve and there is very little diversity in the game.
If Funcom do not get their hands on new content , and i mean like right this moment. The game will die in a month or two (just like Tabula Rasa)
It is ironic that game with such limited content also have one of fastest leveling - it is easily possible to reach lvl 50 in less than week of casual play.
COX on other hand needed a LOT of time to level. A lot lot lot of time.... And it also had random generated content.
COX is a game in its own niche. But this niche it done wonderfully (and i can not wait for Champions)
On other hand AOC is completely different animal. It builds a lot on some aspects , it simply does not have... quite weird really
Comments
That would be true if AcO had at least one milion players, but it seems they will have about what... 200.000+?
This is a small part of the cake.
You half to go through a load screen in EVE also, and although you can go anywhere, just about "anywhere is nowhere" unless you follow routes... Also I can recall EQ1 had plenty of load screens, I dont think MMOs are becoming less free, less explorative, I think people are getting Pickier WHILE getting border of MMO's because in fact, they arent as umm Uncommon, i mean there has to be at least 5+ bigname developers making MMOs every year and tons of noname asian mmo's also. Lets face it, an MMO is NOT meant to be a simulator. Eve is still a good game so keep playin that, i couldnt stay with it after i discoved the 50th load zone with the exact same nebula/space cloud design. /repast zone, /mix content, /add differen moons and suns.
What is this nonsense about EVE Online having load screens post a screenshot please.
I really can't figure out why so many people seem so desperate to savage these games. It's a very sad confession.
Up untill now AoC is even more dumb down massive maybe it hold 50 peeps a instance(map) but all dungeon(cant call dungeon instance anymore or we get confused becouse everything is instanced in AoC) are solo, after 40 i dont know yet, but at least in other mmorpgs you cant solo dungeons AoC you can lol.
Its funny because I bet not a single person on this thread has walked through even half of AOC. Small? They where merely not making it too large... Sure they could have made it just as large and uninstanced as vanguard, and guess what, it would have sucked, AOC would have lagged through the roof, servers would be down, bugs would fry your brains, Wait.... This is starting to sound like what happend in VANGUARD, which we all admit did not succeed? So the people on this forum want a simulator/explorative HUGE open world with too few instances and no loads? Welcome to (Vanguard saga of heroes) theres your dream MMO. Im not defending AOC but its freakin huge. Without loadsscreens, many peoples computers would be in the ER right now.
Vanguard was never a sandbox the fanbois that keep trying to claim its one are not familiar with the basic sandbox criteria
- Am I free to go to any part of the world in Vanguard no it has Levels thus there are mobs that will execute me if I'm a lowbie
- Am I free to pursue any career path I want no the Devs decided that for me
EVen wikipedia has a decent explanation of "sandbox" and Vanguard doesnt meet that criteria. Not to mention its yet another MMO with pointless world PVP no thank you we really only have EVE
put it this way if players can verify the endgame city pvp and such is pretty good then at least one can say AoC is step away from what some of these other shallow games have done.
On topic I do agree with the post. There's really not much to say or add. To AoC's credit they did try to integrate city building. I've been waiting to see what gamers think of it but no one has been posting much about it here
You might see a return of sandbox MMOs as MMO players develop and try different things.
At the moment people are largely experienced with other non-MMO games they play, that DO have structure and a certain amount of linearity to them.
Players develop and move onto other things. If structured games are what a majority of the players are after atm then that's what developers will make.
So if anything you could blame gamers for this change in MMO development
Yes EVE is popular as far as sandbox MMOs are concerned but in the grand scheme of things - http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html - it hardly counts at all.
The important thing is though, MMOs have become wildly popular thanks to WoW. It's brought more people and awareness to them instead of being some niche of the gaming industry that no-one really care to invest much in.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
As for most WoWers being RTS players, I'd want to question that.
A lot of the WoWers I met during my time play hadn't played Warcraft at all but instead other RPGs and some had hardly played any games at all and started playing mainly because one or more of their friends were playing it.
That chart you posted shows some things you appear to have missed:
EVE has bigger pie then many MMOs (like LOTRO, TR, CoX, etC)
1.5% of the pie is a nice income for a game dev.
Lastly and more importantly, that chart does not show the pie for all MMO. It doesnt include Second Life, a full fledged sandbox that has staggering yearly revenues.
It's a good chart though for subscription based MMOs but its not all inclusive. Doesnt tell the whole truth- just the truth for subscription based MMOs
UO was released in 1995 I think? and Diablo was its only main competition, I remember considering which to buy at the game store. So thats over.. 13 years. Please stop acting like Blizzard invented MMOs.
Blizzard did take things away from the MMO World.
#1. Exp loss when you die.
Now I'm sure you could argue a million more things they actually did take away, but that alone is my complaint, sorry but I like my games to have a LITTLE punishment for stupidity. This game hand feeds the idiots of the world.
True. Doesn't include Guild Wars either.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
What WOW did was actually pure genius in a lot of ways and it's hard to fault them for providing a game that appealed to millions of players. Certainly the MMO market has been very dry, but that really isn't the fault of WOW (the quality of games maybe), if anything WOW has encouraged developers to give it a try. Hopfully a game is somewhere on the horizon where the powers that be actually has identified the appeal and management of WOW with the ability to create a diverse game such as UO/SWG/ VAnguard.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
I hope MMOs become cheaper, faster, and more practical to develop so some of these smaller companies can express their ideas...I think alot of them have good ones. But honestly, when WoW came out, I think we were really different as an MMO genre community. First off, there were alot fewer of us. Blizzard did a good job with making a "standard" MMO; one that isn't very free or complex but is a great gateway into the MMO market for new people. Unfortunately now companies see it as the way their MMO should be...but making MMOs is so time-consuming and expensive that in all reality I wouldn't make one if there was doubt I'd make a profit.
That's obviously why most new developers are kind of reluctant to try new things...and we all know how picky the MMO community is...some of us examine every game with a magnifying glass. Honestly in my opinion, I'm tired of WoW yes but I don't have any problem if a company builds on WoW's design and turns it into something great. You're staring at two huge mountains. You have to climb one of them because there's a big pile of cash at the top. The one on the left is less steep and has a nice ladder (WoW's basic design + improvements). The one on the right has jagged rocks and tiny footholds (something totally new). Which one would you take...
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Wasnt trying to steal your thunder though I am just disappointed Sir Bruce doesn't integrate revenue charts like that other mmorpg statistic site did. If Sir Bruce has such a chart on his site as well then forgive me I wasn't able to find it just now
In my view, it is not true.
No company has been managed well to produce a good complex MMORPG.
The op mentioned Tabula Rasa as one of the instanced examples. Tabula rasa is an open world. There are some instanced dungeons like in WOW but each zone does not have many instances like AOC or DDO.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
CCP is doing a fantastic job with Eve. Once the Ambulation Project is released I suspect subscription numbers to rise further.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
This is all because Western Developers have no balls to make risk. The Korean Market is overtaking the genre. Sure there were all those crappy L2 clones, but whats coming out now, ohh shit. AION is huge. Content, Massive World, Flying, Alternate Level Progression, Awesome Graphics, and all playing on a 386(lol j/k). RO2 is finally giving something new to the quest system, choice. No long is it hey go do this, you can atleast choose how you do it and it affects the outcome. Huxley is reviving the mmoFPS that hasn't had a hit since Planetside 6 years ago. The only thing on the Horizon in the West is Massively Instanced Battlegrounds.
I gave TR a chance at launch. So I can 100% say with certainty at launch the ENTIRE region I was in was instanced. I dont know what the cap was but once it is reached the instance the entire sector
I think you might be talking bout something a little different
1) Disagree, people are ready for more than candy store fare, give people more credit.
2) Agreed, but it was equal parts right place right time.
3) Agreed
4) Agreed
5) Disagree, raiding wasn't the problem, SOE forgot 90% didn't raid and had no alternate plan for quality gear.
6) Conjecture.
7) Disagree: people want features & graphics... we can have both.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
I would just disagree with one point you make. I don't even think AoC is that fun. Oh it has some positive elements, but in my opinion, it suffers from City of Heroes syndrome. Quests are way too repetitve and there is very little diversity in the game.
The reason I couldn't have written as good of an analysis I think is because I never played WoW (I'm proud of that fact, btw). The current state of today's MMOs seem to be able to trace their style to that game. It is so unbelievably successful that other companies can't help but model their games after WoW. It's a shame too because WoW is the MMO version of cotton candy. It tastes good, but has little substance and dissolves quickly in your mouth.
If Funcom do not get their hands on new content , and i mean like right this moment. The game will die in a month or two (just like Tabula Rasa)
It is ironic that game with such limited content also have one of fastest leveling - it is easily possible to reach lvl 50 in less than week of casual play.
COX on other hand needed a LOT of time to level. A lot lot lot of time.... And it also had random generated content.
COX is a game in its own niche. But this niche it done wonderfully (and i can not wait for Champions)
On other hand AOC is completely different animal. It builds a lot on some aspects , it simply does not have... quite weird really