Totally agreed to OP post. mmorpg games should be massive,fun,interesting,big world. Just playing AoC make me wonder why i need pay 15€ every month... its like SP game just with mini chat. mmorpg genre dies if graphics are only imporant for devs.
Define "dies". The market is certainly vibrant and expanding because of WOW, LOTR & AOC.
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground....
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success -------
R.I.P Massive
Cmon, is not that bad, era of real MMO still need to begin. There are lots of projects out there we don't even know about, it's not time for panic.
many times in history have proven masse win over the minority even when maybe minority are right.
Its sad but im affraid this will also be case with mmo's.
I understand what your saying but you must understand over time history has shown the Minority eventually become the Masses. The MMO genra isnt going anywhere anytime soon and because of that I have hopes that the lazy gamer will eventually want more.
/amen It's the sad state of mmos, just videogames, not simulators anymore At least we have EvE Online
Explain why this is sad?
Apparently this is what players want.
I dont know about you but my time to play ANY game is very limited.Im not a mid 20's college student.Im a working adult with family and the obligations that go with it.Im lucky if i get more than 1.5 hours.
If im playing an mmo i want to log off feeling like i some satisfaction from it.I dont want to spend 6 hours or more in a dungeon to have someone screw it up.
Mostly true. However, these things tend to correct themselves...eventually. I guess you just have to be really really patient and stop subscribing to the same old crap that they keep churning out.
Lobo I've been reading your post for a long time now. I haven't really always agreed with you, but I've always respected your opinion and comments. On this though, this is probably the first time I've looked at a post of yours, and had to lower my head in shame. I'm sorry, but just like the other guy that said something similar in another thread. I just don't agree with your comments on the matter. I was going to go into a long explanation over it, but you've already made up your mind or it. So it's really not worth it to spend 30 - 40 minutes writing a post. The only thing I will say though is this. I hear almost EVERYONE that agrees with threads like this. Saying something along the lines of "I wish <insert new game here> was more like <insert old game here>". The old games you think are so great are still around till this day (except for a few). There is nothing preventing you from going back to these games. Too many people dismiss new games without even giving them a chance. If those games were so special to you, by all means go back to that game if it's still running. Stop asking for new games to be like those old games.
I agree 100% with this.
The OP is posting based on emotions of the past, but not evaluating the game as a whole in the present day. More specifically lets cut to the chase.
Lobo the old days are gone so either play those older games or MMORPG's are not for you anymore.
I felt that Lord of the Rings Online was a nice addition to the MMORPG list and I say the same for AoC. AoC from a PVP perspective definately has a sandbox feel to it and only will increase once guilds form alliances and backstabbings take place.
Apparently this is what players want. I dont know about you but my time to play ANY game is very limited.Im not a mid 20's college student.Im a working adult with family and the obligations that go with it.Im lucky if i get more than 1.5 hours. If im playing an mmo i want to log off feeling like i some satisfaction from it.I dont want to spend 6 hours or more in a dungeon to have someone screw it up.
If you can't do the time, don't do the MMO.
This is exactly why the MMORPG genre as we know it is slowly dying away. I agree 100% with the op. We're seeing an influx of online single-player action RPGs because this is exactly what the public wants. Quick, in-and-out, instant gratification, everything handed to you on a silver platter, markers over the heads of NPCs with quests, and arrows pointing the way to everything- just so we can cater to everyone's lifestyle.
Dude, if you want to hop on your pc for no more than 1.5 hours and gain a feeling of accomplishment, I recommend Team Fortress 2. It'll do the job.
I think I can afford a little condescension here, because the choices for us "minority" MMO lovers are now limited because of what the masses want. Once the corporate machine got wind that masses want quick quick loot drops, pre-canned classes, and character dressing rooms to feel happy, that's what we get. And the stuff sells by the millions. And it gets repeated over and over as other developers try to capitalize on the same formula. And innovation and creativity dies. Just like the rest of the internet. It goes mainstream, and now we have one big online commercial for an internet. Pages and pages of affiliate marketers. I could go on for hours spewing this angst...but back to the point:
As with many things in life, our society needs to be hand-held and babysat. No more time to think for ourselves and use our imaginations. Its now reflected in the MMOs getting churned out, because the easier something is to understand, the better we appreciate it. Why have the majority of game manuals shrunk to the size of little pamphlets. To save the trees? The cost of printing too high? C'mon. Think PDF. Its because no one has time to read anymore. Can't be bothered. So we get quick-start manuals and nothing else. And our games get eye candy and no substance. We get FedEx quests by the dozens in the form of content, so we can level as fast as humanly possible.
What would the average player do today if you weren't guided with arrows and marked questgivers. What if no one told you what you had to do in the game to level? Or there was no levelling, only stat-building. Someone was able to steal from your corpse and take all your hard-earned elite gear and gold. Would you hunt them down? Or would you cry on the forums? How dare the developers allow such a thing. You're paying $15 a month to have your game give you a balloon and a pat on the head for your hour of play so you can walk away happy. What if you turned off the game in frustration because after spending all day pounding on skellies in the bone room in UO, somebody PKed your butt and took everything all away. What if some people asked you to join their group and clear out a dungeon, and after you were finished, they ganked you and stole your stuff. Unbelievable? Call a GM? File a Complaint? In today's world, absolutely. 10 years ago, it was just another fun-filled, but frustrating, suspenseful but rewarding, infuriating but exciting time in UO.
It wouldn't sell now. Because we no longer have the same audience. Now we design games that cater to the shareholder instead of the player. And now we design games that cater to the mother and father instead of the teen and college student. So our online rpgs are nothing more than quick heroin hits.
But its really not the developer's fault. They see that the only time a classic novel sells is when Oprah puts it on her book club list. Then everyone flocks to read it. How can we blame developers for capitalizing on that kind of mentality.
I think its sad that AoC is a success, because it reinforces all of this, and ensures that this type of product will continue. So yeah, I'll go back to FFXI and Eve, and even a little UO. But there's not enough of us that will do this to make a bit of difference. So I don't believe anything will change anytime soon.
Your original post was great and you made loads of good points, which has also lead to a lot of good follow up posts. I applaud you for your efort.
So why did you then get carried away and spout this rubbish.
Originally posted by Lobotomist
It is ironic that game with such limited content also have one of fastest leveling - it is easily possible to reach lvl 50 in less than week of casual play.
I am in a guild of about 40 players, after 10 days we have only 3 over level 50. I personally had a week off and played the game I guess about 8 hours a day and after a week of this I was still just past level 40. I am sorry, but it is not easily possible to reach level 50 in less than a week. I'm sure it's possible but not easy, and certainly not casual. Why do even sane and sensible posters feel the need to make ridiculous exagerations. Our server has I guess about 50 people over level 50, after almost 2 weeks BTW, and two have reached level 80. There were not many level 50s after a week.
I couldnt be bothered to read all 9 pages that have come before this. I can only imagine its the typical agruments.
I agree with Lobo - we thought gen 2 was going to be good then eq2 launched as crap. WoW wiped the floor with them and the rest is history. Now the standard for mmo gaming is defined in World of Warcrapft.
I think the "problem" is devs want to make the most money they can off of a game (go figure). The majority of the world wants Macdonalds fast, they want 5 billion channels and a cartoon mmo where you run around the world like you're on rails.
I don't expect anything from this genre anymore - not after Vanugard tanked at launch. There is no more virtual worlds only dumbed down EQ clone after eq clone. I've given up long ago and I've certainly given up on the notion that the next gen will have a niche game for me.
If you look at pc gaming in general there hasn't been a new game in 10 years.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
Dude, that's cool. You have a right to feel as you do. And because of the "to-the-point, no-hoops" MMOs that are being cranked out, I play older games that satisfy me.
But, if the trend were to reverse (and I don't believe it ever will, either) wouldn't you bitch about the fact that you don't have time to play all these sandbox games. Why can't someone produce the jump-on-quick-and-level MMOs of the 2000s. Who has time for all this crap? Wouldn't you be a little vocal about what you beieved in.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because the market's all commercialism and capitalism now. Innovation and imagination, imho, are outweighed by the quest for profits. I'm just pissed about it. Even though I can't reverse the machine, I can still complain about it. Its never pointless to express an opinion.
Age of Conan is a Gimped PC MMO and an as good as you can get console MMO.
I realized something today.
I have been trying to figure out why they instanced the zones in this game. Why not just go with an open world like most pay to play MMO's.
Then I remembered, Age of Conan is supposed to be showing up on the Xbox 360.
There is your answer, the game has been gimped in this way to suit the console.
What really shows this is that 360 owners will be able to play with the PC players which means the system had to be the same between both. And of course the consoles have never caught up with the PC when it comes to online capabilities.
For instance, most shooters on the xbox have a max of 16 people.
I am sure you know most PC versions have way, way more.
I just dont like the sound of a game that is gimped to suit a console
There may be some truth in this but the real reason is that a game with AoC's graghics and gameplay can't handle open world as it would lag to hell. Add a 400k players over 10 or so servers you will never be able to finish a mission because you are all fighting for mobs and if you are on PvP then you wont get 2 feet before being ganked, thus the reasons for the instances as well. I see players everywhere where I am and I still get 30-45 fps so I am happy. Vanguard tried to go with no loading screens or instances and 6 players in the same spot would crash the server. (exaggeration of course but not far off). So its not really practical and if they did have open world players would leave in droves for the above reasons.
It will be a while before we have a massive online world with the level of detail AoC has. Plus its a circular argument also, massive online world with no instances will attract 500k players or so, therefore it will be overcrowded meaning they need to make it bigger but then it will attract more players etc etc. MMOs have to be limited in size due to technology and development resources. So as far as I can tell they need to either go with multiple instances with loading screens or have an open world with a maximum number of players per server. 10000 for example.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
Dude, that's cool. You have a right to feel as you do. And because of the "to-the-point, no-hoops" MMOs that are being cranked out, I play older games that satisfy me.
But, if the trend were to reverse (and I don't believe it ever will, either) wouldn't you bitch about the fact that you don't have time to play all these sandbox games. Why can't someone produce the jump-on-quick-and-level MMOs of the 2000s. Who has time for all this crap? Wouldn't you be a little vocal about what you beieved in.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because the market's all commercialism and capitalism now. Innovation and imagination, imho, are outweighed by the quest for profits. I'm just pissed about it. Even though I can't reverse the machine, I can still complain about it. Its never pointless to express an opinion.
Sure. And i certainly understand that this new trend of MMOs are not everyone's cup of tea. However, that does not mean that I don't speak out for my side of the preference.
So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success ------- R.I.P Massive
Only in the terms of how established companies, big publishers or large funded titles will be produced and marketed.
The future of massive games will be to those niched marketed games, such as Eve-Online and small companies. Sure they lack money, most may fail, but some will succeed.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Originally posted by LobotomistOriginally posted by Distiler
At least we have EvE Online
True. EVE is exactly what MMOs 2008 should be.
After playing EVE, I'd never want to play another MMO again if they all strive to become that.
It's become trendtastic to say that the MMO genre's dying. Just like when people started saying the PC Gaming business was dying with Windows 98. We're in a state of mimicry and constant inflation, not a state where everything's stagnating.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
I agree with Andrelle on this one. There are already plenty of MMOs (if you can even call then that) which cater to the casual gamer. They are so shallow and non-immersive that they don't even feel like an online world. There are some who feel (myself included) that if they are going to invest their time in an MMO it had better be a deep immersive game that puts you in that world. Otherwise, what's the point? The danger of a truly immersive game is that you will become addicted to it. But that's kind of the point. I'm getting tired of this half-assed MMO development. I would love to see another completely addictive game, but there's also a part of me that fears it as well.
See, I'm different than all of you. I don't think the trend HAS to reverse in order for us to receive deeper and more involved games. I think there is plenty of great things that have come about in the last years, and that many of them would transition well to ALL forms of MMO gaming...even sandbox. The only real dividing factor is in how much the game is designed to free the player to create his own content. There is no reason why we cannot design a game which appeals to the new casual market, and also give the players a WORLD in which to reside.
It is rather trivial to assume that we cannot take great elements and gameplay from these linear games and apply them, as needed, to our dream of a more player driven world.
I just cant believe this site half the time. EVERY single major MMO that comes out all the users here have to nit pick and look for all the flaws of the game. NOTHING pleases the so called "harcore" MMO gamer but all the casual gamers have no problems at all mainly because they play to just play and have fun. Now really what the problem here is that most of us spent 4 years (and some are still playing) playing WoW almost religiously and now we are wanting something to beat it, but we know that since most development companies are lazy..it will never happen. And after all that effort...all that so called "Valid information" or every thread's "i know everything because i proclaim to have a IT diploma" guy, it all comes down to the same thing ive been saying for the last couple years and thats...no one cares. The devs of the games DONT CARE, every other gamer DOESN'T CARE. All those games that other players even KNOW that the devs are listening to the fan base...the rest of you comes in and cuts it down. "its got instanced zones..." OMG really??? thats soooo bad to cry about. "the end content sux" well you wanna know why??? its cuz they spent so much time getting the features that they promised you to work and be present in the game by launch, cuz if they had a perfect endgame...no that wouldnt make you happy..you would just go off whinning because they dont have all the features they promised you. get this in your head...NO MMO WILL EVER BE PERFECT...WoW isnt perfect and NEVER will be..so dont expect any future game to be...and please mark my next words because went it happens i will rub it in everyones faces: when WAR comes out...i GUARANTEE that alot of people will go complaining about a few things and make a big deal of those things JUST LIKE they are doing for AoC. No point in crying about this game, cuz when WAR comes out you will just be crying alllllll over again. Have a good night everyone.. NUFF SAID!!!!
Dude, that's cool. You have a right to feel as you do. And because of the "to-the-point, no-hoops" MMOs that are being cranked out, I play older games that satisfy me. But, if the trend were to reverse (and I don't believe it ever will, either) wouldn't you bitch about the fact that you don't have time to play all these sandbox games. Why can't someone produce the jump-on-quick-and-level MMOs of the 2000s. Who has time for all this crap? Wouldn't you be a little vocal about what you beieved in. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because the market's all commercialism and capitalism now. Innovation and imagination, imho, are outweighed by the quest for profits. I'm just pissed about it. Even though I can't reverse the machine, I can still complain about it. Its never pointless to express an opinion.
I think that there is room for more sandbox style games if they are produced by developers with reasonable expectations. I find it very hard to imagine one doing much better than EVE. However, If that's the kind audience you plan for (in terms of your development budget), there is no reason why one couldn't be financially successful. I'm really surprised that no-one seems to be jumping on it.
As for your point about being justified in bitching that there aren't more sandbox games or endless time killing grinders and that modern MMOs aren't hardcore enough, I'm a bit skeptical. As has been said repeatedly, there are still sandbox MMOs out. UO is still going, EVE is also doing quite well. Yeah it sucks that SOE shot SWG in the head, but it wasn't the only sandbox ever released. Instead of being pissed that more developers aren't catering to your whims, maybe you should show your financial support to the ones that do. If enough like minded players did so, maybe more developers would take notice.
I'm all for diversity in MMO space. I think there should be games that cater to every possible playstyle so we can all be happy. However I'm not such a big fan of looking down your nose at a game with a design you don't happen to appreciate. There are a ton of MMOs on the left that you couldn't get me to play without showing up at my house with installation disks and a loaded handgun. But if other folks like em, hey more power to them.
And the whole "the sky is falling" because WoW/ LoTRO/ AoC aren't sandboxes or hardcore forced grouping grinders is an argument I have little patience with. Assuming that AoC eneds up in the top three, based on NPD numbers from a month ago the 4th most popular MMO in NA is a forced grouping grinder (FFXI), the 5th is a sandbox (EVE). What's the problem exactly?
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
I agree with Andrelle on this one. There are already plenty of MMOs (if you can even call then that) which cater to the casual gamer. They are so shallow and non-immersive that they don't even feel like an online world. There are some who feel (myself included) that if they are going to invest their time in an MMO it had better be a deep immersive game that puts you in that world. Otherwise, what's the point? The danger of a truly immersive game is that you will become addicted to it. But that's kind of the point. I'm getting tired of this half-assed MMO development. I would love to see another completely addictive game, but there's also a part of me that fears it as well.
The danger is that you think your point is the only point.
What about having some fun hack-n-slash with some friends? Isn't that a point too? Diablo is so successful particularly because it is not pretentious to be larger than just fun hack-n-slash.
And there are more people addicted to simple hack-n-slash than all of the sandbox games ever created.
Now i am not opposed to some developers developing for the niche market. After all, it is a free market. However, I am sick of hardcore gamers thinking their way is the only way. Not everyone wants a second life. Some of us actually have lives and just want some relaxing entertainment.
The only mistake games like AoC and LoTRo have made is calling themselves MMO's. They are Online Role Playing games not MMO's. The MMO is dead, it has been for quite some time, devlopers need to let go of this archaic title and embrace what they are...that way they will lose the bitter MMO vets, while still retaining the new gamer audiance.
Your logic on that statement alone is poor enough that I'm not even going to try to pay attention to the rest. If you can't compare games any better than that, then you do not have good logic.
CCP is doing a fantastic job with Eve. Once the Ambulation Project is released I suspect subscription numbers to rise further.
Maybe a few more will try it, but Eve will never reach out to the millions of people wanting a sci-fi MMO without changing beyond recognition. Sci-fi MMO players want to control their own ships and fight them in real time, not set the game to play itself and sit back to watch as i currently the case.
I have tried Eve three times, and every time I quit it is because the game feels like it is on autopilot all the time. Wy then do I keep going back? I don't rally know, except I really really really want to enjoy a space MMO.
"Eve is not the MMO we are looking for.... move along... move along."
Comments
Define "dies". The market is certainly vibrant and expanding because of WOW, LOTR & AOC.
Cmon, is not that bad, era of real MMO still need to begin. There are lots of projects out there we don't even know about, it's not time for panic.
many times in history have proven masse win over the minority even when maybe minority are right.Its sad but im affraid this will also be case with mmo's.
I understand what your saying but you must understand over time history has shown the Minority eventually become the Masses. The MMO genra isnt going anywhere anytime soon and because of that I have hopes that the lazy gamer will eventually want more.
R.I.P
its all about the money now
Apparently this is what players want.
I dont know about you but my time to play ANY game is very limited.Im not a mid 20's college student.Im a working adult with family and the obligations that go with it.Im lucky if i get more than 1.5 hours.
If im playing an mmo i want to log off feeling like i some satisfaction from it.I dont want to spend 6 hours or more in a dungeon to have someone screw it up.
What is your physical limit?
Mostly true. However, these things tend to correct themselves...eventually. I guess you just have to be really really patient and stop subscribing to the same old crap that they keep churning out.
I agree 100% with this.
The OP is posting based on emotions of the past, but not evaluating the game as a whole in the present day. More specifically lets cut to the chase.
Lobo the old days are gone so either play those older games or MMORPG's are not for you anymore.
I felt that Lord of the Rings Online was a nice addition to the MMORPG list and I say the same for AoC. AoC from a PVP perspective definately has a sandbox feel to it and only will increase once guilds form alliances and backstabbings take place.
If you can't do the time, don't do the MMO.
This is exactly why the MMORPG genre as we know it is slowly dying away. I agree 100% with the op. We're seeing an influx of online single-player action RPGs because this is exactly what the public wants. Quick, in-and-out, instant gratification, everything handed to you on a silver platter, markers over the heads of NPCs with quests, and arrows pointing the way to everything- just so we can cater to everyone's lifestyle.
Dude, if you want to hop on your pc for no more than 1.5 hours and gain a feeling of accomplishment, I recommend Team Fortress 2. It'll do the job.
I think I can afford a little condescension here, because the choices for us "minority" MMO lovers are now limited because of what the masses want. Once the corporate machine got wind that masses want quick quick loot drops, pre-canned classes, and character dressing rooms to feel happy, that's what we get. And the stuff sells by the millions. And it gets repeated over and over as other developers try to capitalize on the same formula. And innovation and creativity dies. Just like the rest of the internet. It goes mainstream, and now we have one big online commercial for an internet. Pages and pages of affiliate marketers. I could go on for hours spewing this angst...but back to the point:
As with many things in life, our society needs to be hand-held and babysat. No more time to think for ourselves and use our imaginations. Its now reflected in the MMOs getting churned out, because the easier something is to understand, the better we appreciate it. Why have the majority of game manuals shrunk to the size of little pamphlets. To save the trees? The cost of printing too high? C'mon. Think PDF. Its because no one has time to read anymore. Can't be bothered. So we get quick-start manuals and nothing else. And our games get eye candy and no substance. We get FedEx quests by the dozens in the form of content, so we can level as fast as humanly possible.
What would the average player do today if you weren't guided with arrows and marked questgivers. What if no one told you what you had to do in the game to level? Or there was no levelling, only stat-building. Someone was able to steal from your corpse and take all your hard-earned elite gear and gold. Would you hunt them down? Or would you cry on the forums? How dare the developers allow such a thing. You're paying $15 a month to have your game give you a balloon and a pat on the head for your hour of play so you can walk away happy. What if you turned off the game in frustration because after spending all day pounding on skellies in the bone room in UO, somebody PKed your butt and took everything all away. What if some people asked you to join their group and clear out a dungeon, and after you were finished, they ganked you and stole your stuff. Unbelievable? Call a GM? File a Complaint? In today's world, absolutely. 10 years ago, it was just another fun-filled, but frustrating, suspenseful but rewarding, infuriating but exciting time in UO.
It wouldn't sell now. Because we no longer have the same audience. Now we design games that cater to the shareholder instead of the player. And now we design games that cater to the mother and father instead of the teen and college student. So our online rpgs are nothing more than quick heroin hits.
But its really not the developer's fault. They see that the only time a classic novel sells is when Oprah puts it on her book club list. Then everyone flocks to read it. How can we blame developers for capitalizing on that kind of mentality.
I think its sad that AoC is a success, because it reinforces all of this, and ensures that this type of product will continue. So yeah, I'll go back to FFXI and Eve, and even a little UO. But there's not enough of us that will do this to make a bit of difference. So I don't believe anything will change anytime soon.
Wow, a thread full of selective memory glorifying UO and early SWG. We really need more of those.
To the OP:
Your original post was great and you made loads of good points, which has also lead to a lot of good follow up posts. I applaud you for your efort.
So why did you then get carried away and spout this rubbish.
I am in a guild of about 40 players, after 10 days we have only 3 over level 50. I personally had a week off and played the game I guess about 8 hours a day and after a week of this I was still just past level 40. I am sorry, but it is not easily possible to reach level 50 in less than a week. I'm sure it's possible but not easy, and certainly not casual. Why do even sane and sensible posters feel the need to make ridiculous exagerations. Our server has I guess about 50 people over level 50, after almost 2 weeks BTW, and two have reached level 80. There were not many level 50s after a week.
I couldnt be bothered to read all 9 pages that have come before this. I can only imagine its the typical agruments.
I agree with Lobo - we thought gen 2 was going to be good then eq2 launched as crap. WoW wiped the floor with them and the rest is history. Now the standard for mmo gaming is defined in World of Warcrapft.
I think the "problem" is devs want to make the most money they can off of a game (go figure). The majority of the world wants Macdonalds fast, they want 5 billion channels and a cartoon mmo where you run around the world like you're on rails.
I don't expect anything from this genre anymore - not after Vanugard tanked at launch. There is no more virtual worlds only dumbed down EQ clone after eq clone. I've given up long ago and I've certainly given up on the notion that the next gen will have a niche game for me.
If you look at pc gaming in general there hasn't been a new game in 10 years.
LOL. Luckily no developer listens to you.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
LOL. Luckily no developer listens to you.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
Dude, that's cool. You have a right to feel as you do. And because of the "to-the-point, no-hoops" MMOs that are being cranked out, I play older games that satisfy me.
But, if the trend were to reverse (and I don't believe it ever will, either) wouldn't you bitch about the fact that you don't have time to play all these sandbox games. Why can't someone produce the jump-on-quick-and-level MMOs of the 2000s. Who has time for all this crap? Wouldn't you be a little vocal about what you beieved in.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because the market's all commercialism and capitalism now. Innovation and imagination, imho, are outweighed by the quest for profits. I'm just pissed about it. Even though I can't reverse the machine, I can still complain about it. Its never pointless to express an opinion.
It will be a while before we have a massive online world with the level of detail AoC has. Plus its a circular argument also, massive online world with no instances will attract 500k players or so, therefore it will be overcrowded meaning they need to make it bigger but then it will attract more players etc etc. MMOs have to be limited in size due to technology and development resources. So as far as I can tell they need to either go with multiple instances with loading screens or have an open world with a maximum number of players per server. 10000 for example.
LOL. Luckily no developer listens to you.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
Dude, that's cool. You have a right to feel as you do. And because of the "to-the-point, no-hoops" MMOs that are being cranked out, I play older games that satisfy me.
But, if the trend were to reverse (and I don't believe it ever will, either) wouldn't you bitch about the fact that you don't have time to play all these sandbox games. Why can't someone produce the jump-on-quick-and-level MMOs of the 2000s. Who has time for all this crap? Wouldn't you be a little vocal about what you beieved in.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because the market's all commercialism and capitalism now. Innovation and imagination, imho, are outweighed by the quest for profits. I'm just pissed about it. Even though I can't reverse the machine, I can still complain about it. Its never pointless to express an opinion.
Sure. And i certainly understand that this new trend of MMOs are not everyone's cup of tea. However, that does not mean that I don't speak out for my side of the preference.
The future of massive games will be to those niched marketed games, such as Eve-Online and small companies. Sure they lack money, most may fail, but some will succeed.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
True. EVE is exactly what MMOs 2008 should be.
After playing EVE, I'd never want to play another MMO again if they all strive to become that.
It's become trendtastic to say that the MMO genre's dying. Just like when people started saying the PC Gaming business was dying with Windows 98. We're in a state of mimicry and constant inflation, not a state where everything's stagnating.
LOL. Luckily no developer listens to you.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
I agree with Andrelle on this one. There are already plenty of MMOs (if you can even call then that) which cater to the casual gamer. They are so shallow and non-immersive that they don't even feel like an online world. There are some who feel (myself included) that if they are going to invest their time in an MMO it had better be a deep immersive game that puts you in that world. Otherwise, what's the point? The danger of a truly immersive game is that you will become addicted to it. But that's kind of the point. I'm getting tired of this half-assed MMO development. I would love to see another completely addictive game, but there's also a part of me that fears it as well.
See, I'm different than all of you. I don't think the trend HAS to reverse in order for us to receive deeper and more involved games. I think there is plenty of great things that have come about in the last years, and that many of them would transition well to ALL forms of MMO gaming...even sandbox. The only real dividing factor is in how much the game is designed to free the player to create his own content. There is no reason why we cannot design a game which appeals to the new casual market, and also give the players a WORLD in which to reside.
It is rather trivial to assume that we cannot take great elements and gameplay from these linear games and apply them, as needed, to our dream of a more player driven world.
I just cant believe this site half the time. EVERY single major MMO that comes out all the users here have to nit pick and look for all the flaws of the game. NOTHING pleases the so called "harcore" MMO gamer but all the casual gamers have no problems at all mainly because they play to just play and have fun. Now really what the problem here is that most of us spent 4 years (and some are still playing) playing WoW almost religiously and now we are wanting something to beat it, but we know that since most development companies are lazy..it will never happen. And after all that effort...all that so called "Valid information" or every thread's "i know everything because i proclaim to have a IT diploma" guy, it all comes down to the same thing ive been saying for the last couple years and thats...no one cares. The devs of the games DONT CARE, every other gamer DOESN'T CARE.
All those games that other players even KNOW that the devs are listening to the fan base...the rest of you comes in and cuts it down. "its got instanced zones..." OMG really??? thats soooo bad to cry about. "the end content sux" well you wanna know why??? its cuz they spent so much time getting the features that they promised you to work and be present in the game by launch, cuz if they had a perfect endgame...no that wouldnt make you happy..you would just go off whinning because they dont have all the features they promised you. get this in your head...NO MMO WILL EVER BE PERFECT...WoW isnt perfect and NEVER will be..so dont expect any future game to be...and please mark my next words because went it happens i will rub it in everyones faces: when WAR comes out...i GUARANTEE that alot of people will go complaining about a few things and make a big deal of those things JUST LIKE they are doing for AoC. No point in crying about this game, cuz when WAR comes out you will just be crying alllllll over again. Have a good night everyone.. NUFF SAID!!!!
I think that there is room for more sandbox style games if they are produced by developers with reasonable expectations. I find it very hard to imagine one doing much better than EVE. However, If that's the kind audience you plan for (in terms of your development budget), there is no reason why one couldn't be financially successful. I'm really surprised that no-one seems to be jumping on it.
As for your point about being justified in bitching that there aren't more sandbox games or endless time killing grinders and that modern MMOs aren't hardcore enough, I'm a bit skeptical. As has been said repeatedly, there are still sandbox MMOs out. UO is still going, EVE is also doing quite well. Yeah it sucks that SOE shot SWG in the head, but it wasn't the only sandbox ever released. Instead of being pissed that more developers aren't catering to your whims, maybe you should show your financial support to the ones that do. If enough like minded players did so, maybe more developers would take notice.
I'm all for diversity in MMO space. I think there should be games that cater to every possible playstyle so we can all be happy. However I'm not such a big fan of looking down your nose at a game with a design you don't happen to appreciate. There are a ton of MMOs on the left that you couldn't get me to play without showing up at my house with installation disks and a loaded handgun. But if other folks like em, hey more power to them.
And the whole "the sky is falling" because WoW/ LoTRO/ AoC aren't sandboxes or hardcore forced grouping grinders is an argument I have little patience with. Assuming that AoC eneds up in the top three, based on NPD numbers from a month ago the 4th most popular MMO in NA is a forced grouping grinder (FFXI), the 5th is a sandbox (EVE). What's the problem exactly?
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
LOL. Luckily no developer listens to you.
We are talking about entertainment here. Don't make it sounds like a job. And no matter what you say, the trend is not going to reverse itself.
If you can't live with fun, to-the-point, no-hoops-to-jump-thru MMOs, you are welcomed to leave the market.
I agree with Andrelle on this one. There are already plenty of MMOs (if you can even call then that) which cater to the casual gamer. They are so shallow and non-immersive that they don't even feel like an online world. There are some who feel (myself included) that if they are going to invest their time in an MMO it had better be a deep immersive game that puts you in that world. Otherwise, what's the point? The danger of a truly immersive game is that you will become addicted to it. But that's kind of the point. I'm getting tired of this half-assed MMO development. I would love to see another completely addictive game, but there's also a part of me that fears it as well.
The danger is that you think your point is the only point.
What about having some fun hack-n-slash with some friends? Isn't that a point too? Diablo is so successful particularly because it is not pretentious to be larger than just fun hack-n-slash.
And there are more people addicted to simple hack-n-slash than all of the sandbox games ever created.
Now i am not opposed to some developers developing for the niche market. After all, it is a free market. However, I am sick of hardcore gamers thinking their way is the only way. Not everyone wants a second life. Some of us actually have lives and just want some relaxing entertainment.
The only mistake games like AoC and LoTRo have made is calling themselves MMO's. They are Online Role Playing games not MMO's. The MMO is dead, it has been for quite some time, devlopers need to let go of this archaic title and embrace what they are...that way they will lose the bitter MMO vets, while still retaining the new gamer audiance.
AOC is about as much of an MMO as guild wars.
That game will lose most of it's subs soon, and will certainly take a huge hit after the free 30 days.
"and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin..."
Your logic on that statement alone is poor enough that I'm not even going to try to pay attention to the rest. If you can't compare games any better than that, then you do not have good logic.
I have tried Eve three times, and every time I quit it is because the game feels like it is on autopilot all the time. Wy then do I keep going back? I don't rally know, except I really really really want to enjoy a space MMO.
"Eve is not the MMO we are looking for.... move along... move along."
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu