The only mistake games like AoC and LoTRo have made is calling themselves MMO's. They are Online Role Playing games not MMO's. The MMO is dead, it has been for quite some time, devlopers need to let go of this archaic title and embrace what they are...that way they will lose the bitter MMO vets, while still retaining the new gamer audiance.
In that case, that is just semantics. Calling it MMO is as good as calling it something else. Who cares what they are called as long as the game is fun?
ok hers what we want, can we see an exemple of siege thing in action ,im sure im not the only one shying from the grind fest needed only to find that siege isnt that great ,im willing to be patient but when we know that ageofconan.com asnt posted any hint of all the great feature we re suppose to see ,can we see them anywhere but in theory.i dont mind to mutch about bugs wow fix those on weekly basis i do hate to be kept in the dark no show means we ll find another toy to play there are other game beside aoc.
Once the whoa factor wears off, and the repetition of combat starts getting to you.. aoc starts to feel rather shallow indeed. Because apart from that combat, the game has nothing to offer, except pretty graphics and its combat system.
I was hoping funcom could make a much better world to live and explore in, AO wasnt too bad in that respect. AoC is another cookie cutter wow-like, actually lesser that wow in most respects, except for the combat. Which is fine for people who just want that.
(yes using wow as a comparision, everyone knows what it means so hey, its a decent benchmark to use for crappyness)
"nothing to offer"
Well thats strange because the guild i'm in consists of over 240 members and we are in the middle of a clan war, we have also just built the first three building in our guild city, and there is still the Border Kingdoms keep siegeing to come. Also on the AoC launcher it says in one of the reprts that new zones and content will be added very soon. So i have to disagree with you when you say AoC has "nothing to offer".
I think what he meant was 'nothing to offer right now'. Sure they will add things in the future and we all know the MMO Dev meaning of the word 'soon'. Right now the game offers nothing substantial seeing as most of its selling features are to be added 'soon'.
I have friends who bought the game that are now running out their free play time and will resub later once the game picks up to the point it was meant to be at, that is unless they come across something else to play.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
men unless some company are hidding someting very cool,i think your reading of the futur of gaming is right on .can i cry now men i like wow but i was hoping for bha screw it lets go back to wow lol
Games like UO and AC1 were attempts at seamless worlds. AC1 had real time dodging SERVER SIDE, run-and-gun spell casting, dynamic classification, mobs that 'grew', server side collision, and the whole works In UO you could own houses, dynamic classification (use based), impact in the world itself, light barriers between newb and veteran, etc These newer MMOs are a regression of a sorts
I wish some of the newer MMOs would take a BIG step back in the graphics department an spend the extra time/resources on building upon the things that games like UO and AC started. Seamless worlds, a massive, complex skill system, features, features, features...
Hell, Id be willing to go all the way back to 2D (within reason) if it means that I could play a truely massive, complex MMO. People keep saying it, but if you make a ground based version of EVE (with some changes) youd really have something.
I'd play a 2D fantasy version of EVE over any other MMORPG title out right now. No questions asked.
The other 3 cores in my cpu and extra 2gigs of ram can go search for aliens via seti@home for all I care.
It is the quality gameplay that I crave! Not the goddam polygons and the oh-so-exciting sfx!
It breaks my heart to see all this new fantastic processing power and bandwidth wasted on mere superficial fluff. With those assets we could have vast dynamic true virtual worlds instead of glorified home-based merry-go-rounds. Meh...
You know its kinda funny. There are a lot of people that claim they would play a 2D version of "name game here" over "name game here". When it actually comes down to it how many people would actually forgo the graphics to play a 2d game again? I think most of it is hot air to try and prove a point. Graphics may not be everything but if that were the case we would all still be playing MUDs.
Funny I just wrote a blog on a 2D mmo I really enjoyed last month:
Also, you must not be familiar with games like Runescape. It's ugly as sin (and isometric); but highly grossing MMO that placed in the Top 10 Most Player Games on NPD (industry standard charts/stats)
People havent even seen what AoC is about yet. Sure there is action, quests, zones and pretty graphics. But where funcon has really put their effort is in the endgame.
What is AoCs endgame? Well its society building and fighting for it!
The point of AoC is to join a guild so you can build a city and later a battle keep so your guild can control an area where it can control the resources. And then you have to fight other players for control of your guild's lands in hopefully big battles.
Sure there will be those silly arena pvp fights and raids but the huge community effort in building up your city so you gain access to the advanced features in the endgame is the real goal.
And its something you cant do on your own, it has to be a combined effort of many players that work towards a common goal for you to succeed. Gathering resources, learning the skills, getting the money, finding the rare drops (its huge what you need).
But people only see the fairly shallow lvl'ing game atm which can be entertaining but in reality is little different from WoW (apart from the combat system).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
People havent even seen what AoC is about yet. Sure there is action, quests, zones and pretty graphics. But where funcon has really put their effort is in the endgame.
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
People havent even seen what AoC is about yet. Sure there is action, quests, zones and pretty graphics. But where funcon has really put their effort is in the endgame.
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
And knowing FC, the end game content that was promised will be delivered in a way that isnt exactly what players want. Then they will break fully from the premise of the game and make an expansion where you find out that all the factions are based off Alien demons and angels who are fighting an endless war in an alternate dimension thats plagued by horrible faction grinds and gimpy xp and will run worse than the original game ever did.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
People havent even seen what AoC is about yet. Sure there is action, quests, zones and pretty graphics. But where funcon has really put their effort is in the endgame. What is AoCs endgame? Well its society building and fighting for it! The point of AoC is to join a guild so you can build a city and later a battle keep so your guild can control an area where it can control the resources. And then you have to fight other players for control of your guild's lands in hopefully big battles. Sure there will be those silly arena pvp fights and raids but the huge community effort in building up your city so you gain access to the advanced features in the endgame is the real goal. And its something you cant do on your own, it has to be a combined effort of many players that work towards a common goal for you to succeed. Gathering resources, learning the skills, getting the money, finding the rare drops (its huge what you need). But people only see the fairly shallow lvl'ing game atm which can be entertaining but in reality is little different from WoW (apart from the combat system).
This is all nice and cool... but...
The way it's been implemented so far reeks of extremely bad and off-hand core game design.
Instanced keep sieges? With timed widows for attacking? That you have to earn the right for by doing PvP mini-games? Oh my god.... These are all last-second solutions that show that they didn't have any clue how to actually pull off those guild-warfare sieges they've been so proudly boasting off.
All the things you listed are all fine and dandy and would make any full-blooded mmorpg-er's mouth water, but... They simply didn't do their homework. Plain and simple.
I suggest they do a proper game design document for their next game BEFORE they actually start coding it. Some simulations and crap beforehand would do wonders as well. Maybe just sitting around a big table and talking about stuff would help - like "Hmm we have no death penalties and no corpse runs... Wait a minute, won't the players start suiciding as a way of fast travel? OMG, you're right! Maybe we should do something about it BEFORE the release!" Meh... they probably talked about teh new awsomez gfx and that really fantastic new fatality animation...
I detest AoC and all it stands for because they've placed graphics and titties before that which makes games games - game design. I hope they sink as a warning to other developers.
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
How do you know its broken? No one has made a tier 3 city yet.
There are so many untrue rumors spread about this game that is worries me. For example the 50 per zone rumor which is a blatant lie people keep spreading even after it was proved wrong.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
How do you know its broken? No one has made a tier 3 city yet.
There are so many untrue rumors spread about this game that is worries me. For example the 50 per zone rumor which is a blatant lie people keep spreading even after it was proved wrong.
I thought 50 per zone was fact (confused here) Can you link your proof please. I am very interested in this.
Originally posted by markoraos This is all nice and cool... but... The way it's been implemented so far reeks of extremely bad and off-hand core game design. Instanced keep sieges? With timed widows for attacking? That you have to earn the right for by doing PvP mini-games? Oh my god.... These are all last-second solutions that show that they didn't have any clue how to actually pull off those guild-warfare sieges they've been so proudly boasting off. All the things you listed are all fine and dandy and would make any full-blooded mmorpg-er's mouth water, but... They simply didn't do their homework. Plain and simple. I suggest they do a proper game design document for their next game BEFORE they actually start coding it. Some simulations and crap beforehand would do wonders as well. Maybe just sitting around a big table and talking about stuff would help - like "Hmm we have no death penalties and no corpse runs... Wait a minute, won't the players start suiciding as a way of fast travel? OMG, you're right! Maybe we should do something about it BEFORE the release!" Meh... they probably talked about teh new awsomez gfx and that really fantastic new fatality animation... I detest AoC and all it stands for because they've placed graphics and titties before that which makes games games - game design. I hope they sink as a warning to other developers.
Sieges arent instanced. The borderland pvp zones cant be instanced at all. What happens is that there is a limit on how many can take part in the battle (which is done for the sake of balance but I personally find it stupid).
The pvp games dont give points for guild pvp rank any more than open land pvp or pvp battles. Its the kills you guild produce that give them no matter where you get the kills.
I think my friend you are a victim of the lies and rumors that bashers spread to harm the game. That being said I agree the lack of a real pve death penalty is silly and the severe pvp death penalty is silly too.
But the game is better than what people say on this site. People here wil bash anything there is different from UO or AC because no one makes those kind of games anymore which makes them bitter old men.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Please don't bother with the "If you can't do the time, don't do the MMO." There are two things that this argument refuses to acknowledge.
You can make an MMO that caters to people with limited play time. The people with tons of free time will run through the content and quit fast, the rest will keep on playing and enjoying their time.
The generation that played UO, EQ etc are the generation that now requests the only fun, no grind MMOs. Waiting for a mob to respawn a couple of hours may have been ok-ish in the past, but it just won't do today.
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
The generation that played UO, EQ etc are the generation that now requests the only fun, no grind MMOs. Waiting for a mob to respawn a couple of hours may have been ok-ish in the past, but it just won't do today.
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
How can you speak for a whole generation? Look at the number of old UO players that are in the foums of Mortal Online and Darkfall.
I myself are an old EQ player and for me only-FUN MMOs are simply put not MMOS. If I don't have the time, I go play something else, I don't need an MMO.
You will be in a safer ground speaking for yourself
Originally posted by markoraos This is all nice and cool... but... The way it's been implemented so far reeks of extremely bad and off-hand core game design. Instanced keep sieges? With timed widows for attacking? That you have to earn the right for by doing PvP mini-games? Oh my god.... These are all last-second solutions that show that they didn't have any clue how to actually pull off those guild-warfare sieges they've been so proudly boasting off. All the things you listed are all fine and dandy and would make any full-blooded mmorpg-er's mouth water, but... They simply didn't do their homework. Plain and simple. I suggest they do a proper game design document for their next game BEFORE they actually start coding it. Some simulations and crap beforehand would do wonders as well. Maybe just sitting around a big table and talking about stuff would help - like "Hmm we have no death penalties and no corpse runs... Wait a minute, won't the players start suiciding as a way of fast travel? OMG, you're right! Maybe we should do something about it BEFORE the release!" Meh... they probably talked about teh new awsomez gfx and that really fantastic new fatality animation... I detest AoC and all it stands for because they've placed graphics and titties before that which makes games games - game design. I hope they sink as a warning to other developers.
Sieges arent instanced. The borderland pvp zones cant be instanced at all. What happens is that there is a limit on how many can take part in the battle (which is done for the sake of balance but I personally find it stupid).
The pvp games dont give points for guild pvp rank any more than open land pvp or pvp battles. Its the kills you guild produce that give them no matter where you get the kills.
I think my friend you are a victim of the lies and rumors that bashers spread to harm the game. That being said I agree the lack of a real pve death penalty is silly and the severe pvp death penalty is silly too.
But the game is better than what people say on this site. People here wil bash anything there is different from UO or AC because no one makes those kind of games anymore which makes them bitter old men.
PvP sieges ARE 48v48. Whether it's in an instance or "open world" (if that exists in AoC at all) doesn't matter in the slightest. The result is the same = guild elitism horribly exacerbated by timed windows for sieges...
PvP mini-games will yield the best and fastest PvP rank because you'll find much more opponents there and you won't have to run as far to find some etc... result = grind ratrace
I'm not "for" or "against" death penalties.Tthis is something that has to be considered with the whole game in mind - something AoC devs evidently didn't do.
The game is badly designed. Period. If you make a game whose main selling point is XYZ then you make damn sure in the design phase that players will get as much quality XYZ as often as possible. If, due to lack of forethought and design in the game as a whole, you have to make last minute changes (lol 5 YEARS after starting development) to XYZ that will require you to
a) level for weeks doing something completely different until you are eligible for XYZ
b) rely on other players to allow you to do XYZ
c) have to constantly grind something else so you can eventually get a shot at trying XYZ
d) ... and if you manage to slog through a, b and c you still get your XYZ maybe once in a few days... maybe 10% or less (probably much less) of your total playing time..
.. then something is horribly wrong... and it has nothing to do with bugs and glitches. It is the core game design which is broken.
/to add
Before I get jumped I'll just say that I'm that pissed at AoC precisely because I really did anticipate all the nice things they promised. I do love the IP and I've been a fan since I can remember. I want a bit more visceral combat in MMOs. Gore and nudity - bring it on! Guild warfare and player-built cities - I think I'll go meltdown!
And that's precisely why I'm so angry at Funcom for taking all these great things and screwing them up so royally by neglecting the very basic game requirement - it is a game! Forget about the gfx and tits for a moment - design it! Think! What does this rule do? How will this mechanic impact the gameplay? What are our players going to be doing most of the time? Is it fun? Is it repetetive?
If it were "Age of CSI: Las Vegas" I couldn't care less about bad game design, but it really hurts me to see something I love and cherish get so screwed due to simple indolence and lack of forethought.
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller !
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success
-------
R.I.P Massive
Heard of EvE-Online? one server 42k players , one system of great fleet battles reaches around 500-600 players...if not Fleet Battles come to JITA , eve started around 2003 june or something not quiet sure but see wher it stands now? still on the TOP 5 and where is WoW?
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Imo you're confusing the issue.
I have a job and I'm a parent as well... And I detest the "dumbing down" of the genre.
For me this endless, repetetive grind and hold-your-hand quests are dumbing down of the genre. I'd like, for once, to see a game that is complex and that gives you freedom and immersion but which doesn't require enormous continuous chunks of time to get eligible for having fun.
For example, you can have very complex and rich PvE content that is friendly to casual players. (remember, "casual" doesn't have to equal "dumb" or "shallow"). What you need to do is to make parts of quest chains short in duration (so you can finish a stage in say 1/2 hour) but at the same time remove the requirement that all group members have to be at the same stage to meaningfully participate.
This is probably the main reason us "old fogies" dream about sandbox MMOs.. There you set up your own pace of the game and whether you're off to just grind some mobs you can usually find someone to happen by who wants to grind those mobs as well - if someone was to give this "grind" some story or drama or challenge there would be no one happier than us. .
Linear A-B-C-D quest chains and long duration PvE events (like instanced dungeons) simply force people to stay together all the time and this puts a huge strain on working peoples' schedule. If you're too fast - bad. Too slow - bad again. Everybody gets frustrated in the end unless we all go to the same class and have no evening social life.
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Now that is complete BS. Developers of course have to respond to the needs of the target audience. The ones who did that (for example WOW) reap big rewards.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller !
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success
-------
R.I.P Massive
Heard of EvE-Online? one server 42k players , one system of great fleet battles reaches around 500-600 players...if not Fleet Battles come to JITA , eve started around 2003 june or something not quiet sure but see wher it stands now? still on the TOP 5 and where is WoW?
Uh? WOW has 40x more subscribers than Eve. You may like Eve but it is no where close to the commercial successs that WOW is.
Heck, even AOC sold more boxes in the first week than Eve has subscribers. LOTR also has more subscribers.
Comments
In that case, that is just semantics. Calling it MMO is as good as calling it something else. Who cares what they are called as long as the game is fun?
Nah. I will continue to NOT play WOW...or any other MMO for that matter. When some one finally manages to release an interesting MMO, Ill be there...
"nothing to offer"
Well thats strange because the guild i'm in consists of over 240 members and we are in the middle of a clan war, we have also just built the first three building in our guild city, and there is still the Border Kingdoms keep siegeing to come. Also on the AoC launcher it says in one of the reprts that new zones and content will be added very soon. So i have to disagree with you when you say AoC has "nothing to offer".
I think what he meant was 'nothing to offer right now'. Sure they will add things in the future and we all know the MMO Dev meaning of the word 'soon'. Right now the game offers nothing substantial seeing as most of its selling features are to be added 'soon'.I have friends who bought the game that are now running out their free play time and will resub later once the game picks up to the point it was meant to be at, that is unless they come across something else to play.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
men unless some company are hidding someting very cool,i think your reading of the futur of gaming is right on .can i cry now men i like wow but i was hoping for bha screw it lets go back to wow lol
I wish some of the newer MMOs would take a BIG step back in the graphics department an spend the extra time/resources on building upon the things that games like UO and AC started. Seamless worlds, a massive, complex skill system, features, features, features...
Hell, Id be willing to go all the way back to 2D (within reason) if it means that I could play a truely massive, complex MMO. People keep saying it, but if you make a ground based version of EVE (with some changes) youd really have something.
I'd play a 2D fantasy version of EVE over any other MMORPG title out right now. No questions asked.
The other 3 cores in my cpu and extra 2gigs of ram can go search for aliens via seti@home for all I care.
It is the quality gameplay that I crave! Not the goddam polygons and the oh-so-exciting sfx!
It breaks my heart to see all this new fantastic processing power and bandwidth wasted on mere superficial fluff. With those assets we could have vast dynamic true virtual worlds instead of glorified home-based merry-go-rounds. Meh...
You know its kinda funny. There are a lot of people that claim they would play a 2D version of "name game here" over "name game here". When it actually comes down to it how many people would actually forgo the graphics to play a 2d game again? I think most of it is hot air to try and prove a point. Graphics may not be everything but if that were the case we would all still be playing MUDs.
Funny I just wrote a blog on a 2D mmo I really enjoyed last month:
www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/042008/1513_Starport#comments
Also, you must not be familiar with games like Runescape. It's ugly as sin (and isometric); but highly grossing MMO that placed in the Top 10 Most Player Games on NPD (industry standard charts/stats)
As much as I love AoC, Im going to have to agree,
But I never played AoC to relive my SWG days, or to play a sandbox game, I simply wanted a new fun game to play.
The genre really does need a new champion, and when that game comes out, whew!
-Jive
People havent even seen what AoC is about yet. Sure there is action, quests, zones and pretty graphics. But where funcon has really put their effort is in the endgame.
What is AoCs endgame? Well its society building and fighting for it!
The point of AoC is to join a guild so you can build a city and later a battle keep so your guild can control an area where it can control the resources. And then you have to fight other players for control of your guild's lands in hopefully big battles.
Sure there will be those silly arena pvp fights and raids but the huge community effort in building up your city so you gain access to the advanced features in the endgame is the real goal.
And its something you cant do on your own, it has to be a combined effort of many players that work towards a common goal for you to succeed. Gathering resources, learning the skills, getting the money, finding the rare drops (its huge what you need).
But people only see the fairly shallow lvl'ing game atm which can be entertaining but in reality is little different from WoW (apart from the combat system).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
To bad all of the endgame is broken and unfinished as so many here are reporting! ...and to those that will respond they have a tier 1 city....big deal...does it do anything for you yet...nope didn't think so!
And knowing FC, the end game content that was promised will be delivered in a way that isnt exactly what players want. Then they will break fully from the premise of the game and make an expansion where you find out that all the factions are based off Alien demons and angels who are fighting an endless war in an alternate dimension thats plagued by horrible faction grinds and gimpy xp and will run worse than the original game ever did.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This is all nice and cool... but...
The way it's been implemented so far reeks of extremely bad and off-hand core game design.
Instanced keep sieges? With timed widows for attacking? That you have to earn the right for by doing PvP mini-games? Oh my god.... These are all last-second solutions that show that they didn't have any clue how to actually pull off those guild-warfare sieges they've been so proudly boasting off.
All the things you listed are all fine and dandy and would make any full-blooded mmorpg-er's mouth water, but... They simply didn't do their homework. Plain and simple.
I suggest they do a proper game design document for their next game BEFORE they actually start coding it. Some simulations and crap beforehand would do wonders as well. Maybe just sitting around a big table and talking about stuff would help - like "Hmm we have no death penalties and no corpse runs... Wait a minute, won't the players start suiciding as a way of fast travel? OMG, you're right! Maybe we should do something about it BEFORE the release!" Meh... they probably talked about teh new awsomez gfx and that really fantastic new fatality animation...
I detest AoC and all it stands for because they've placed graphics and titties before that which makes games games - game design. I hope they sink as a warning to other developers.
How do you know its broken? No one has made a tier 3 city yet.
There are so many untrue rumors spread about this game that is worries me. For example the 50 per zone rumor which is a blatant lie people keep spreading even after it was proved wrong.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
How do you know its broken? No one has made a tier 3 city yet.
There are so many untrue rumors spread about this game that is worries me. For example the 50 per zone rumor which is a blatant lie people keep spreading even after it was proved wrong.
I thought 50 per zone was fact (confused here) Can you link your proof please. I am very interested in this.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Sieges arent instanced. The borderland pvp zones cant be instanced at all. What happens is that there is a limit on how many can take part in the battle (which is done for the sake of balance but I personally find it stupid).
The pvp games dont give points for guild pvp rank any more than open land pvp or pvp battles. Its the kills you guild produce that give them no matter where you get the kills.
I think my friend you are a victim of the lies and rumors that bashers spread to harm the game. That being said I agree the lack of a real pve death penalty is silly and the severe pvp death penalty is silly too.
But the game is better than what people say on this site. People here wil bash anything there is different from UO or AC because no one makes those kind of games anymore which makes them bitter old men.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/181978
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
To andrelle:
Please don't bother with the "If you can't do the time, don't do the MMO." There are two things that this argument refuses to acknowledge.
Bottom line, the MMO players of the past have grown up, their lives became more complicated and filled with more stuff to do. This did not diminish their love for the gender, just the free time available.
I myself are an old EQ player and for me only-FUN MMOs are simply put not MMOS. If I don't have the time, I go play something else, I don't need an MMO.
You will be in a safer ground speaking for yourself
Sieges arent instanced. The borderland pvp zones cant be instanced at all. What happens is that there is a limit on how many can take part in the battle (which is done for the sake of balance but I personally find it stupid).
The pvp games dont give points for guild pvp rank any more than open land pvp or pvp battles. Its the kills you guild produce that give them no matter where you get the kills.
I think my friend you are a victim of the lies and rumors that bashers spread to harm the game. That being said I agree the lack of a real pve death penalty is silly and the severe pvp death penalty is silly too.
But the game is better than what people say on this site. People here wil bash anything there is different from UO or AC because no one makes those kind of games anymore which makes them bitter old men.
PvP sieges ARE 48v48. Whether it's in an instance or "open world" (if that exists in AoC at all) doesn't matter in the slightest. The result is the same = guild elitism horribly exacerbated by timed windows for sieges...
PvP mini-games will yield the best and fastest PvP rank because you'll find much more opponents there and you won't have to run as far to find some etc... result = grind ratrace
I'm not "for" or "against" death penalties.Tthis is something that has to be considered with the whole game in mind - something AoC devs evidently didn't do.
The game is badly designed. Period. If you make a game whose main selling point is XYZ then you make damn sure in the design phase that players will get as much quality XYZ as often as possible. If, due to lack of forethought and design in the game as a whole, you have to make last minute changes (lol 5 YEARS after starting development) to XYZ that will require you to
a) level for weeks doing something completely different until you are eligible for XYZ
b) rely on other players to allow you to do XYZ
c) have to constantly grind something else so you can eventually get a shot at trying XYZ
d) ... and if you manage to slog through a, b and c you still get your XYZ maybe once in a few days... maybe 10% or less (probably much less) of your total playing time..
.. then something is horribly wrong... and it has nothing to do with bugs and glitches. It is the core game design which is broken.
/to add
Before I get jumped I'll just say that I'm that pissed at AoC precisely because I really did anticipate all the nice things they promised. I do love the IP and I've been a fan since I can remember. I want a bit more visceral combat in MMOs. Gore and nudity - bring it on! Guild warfare and player-built cities - I think I'll go meltdown!
And that's precisely why I'm so angry at Funcom for taking all these great things and screwing them up so royally by neglecting the very basic game requirement - it is a game! Forget about the gfx and tits for a moment - design it! Think! What does this rule do? How will this mechanic impact the gameplay? What are our players going to be doing most of the time? Is it fun? Is it repetetive?
If it were "Age of CSI: Las Vegas" I couldn't care less about bad game design, but it really hurts me to see something I love and cherish get so screwed due to simple indolence and lack of forethought.
To altairzq :
You're right. My apologies for a post written rather hastily.
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Heard of EvE-Online? one server 42k players , one system of great fleet battles reaches around 500-600 players...if not Fleet Battles come to JITA
, eve started around 2003 june or something not quiet sure but see wher it stands now? still on the TOP 5 and where is WoW?
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Imo you're confusing the issue.
I have a job and I'm a parent as well... And I detest the "dumbing down" of the genre.
For me this endless, repetetive grind and hold-your-hand quests are dumbing down of the genre. I'd like, for once, to see a game that is complex and that gives you freedom and immersion but which doesn't require enormous continuous chunks of time to get eligible for having fun.
For example, you can have very complex and rich PvE content that is friendly to casual players. (remember, "casual" doesn't have to equal "dumb" or "shallow"). What you need to do is to make parts of quest chains short in duration (so you can finish a stage in say 1/2 hour) but at the same time remove the requirement that all group members have to be at the same stage to meaningfully participate.
This is probably the main reason us "old fogies" dream about sandbox MMOs.. There you set up your own pace of the game and whether you're off to just grind some mobs you can usually find someone to happen by who wants to grind those mobs as well - if someone was to give this "grind" some story or drama or challenge there would be no one happier than us. .
Linear A-B-C-D quest chains and long duration PvE events (like instanced dungeons) simply force people to stay together all the time and this puts a huge strain on working peoples' schedule. If you're too fast - bad. Too slow - bad again. Everybody gets frustrated in the end unless we all go to the same class and have no evening social life.
But I think you need to acknowledge that your complicated life should be irrelevant to the developer and what he creates. The fact that you're busy with wife, kids, job, should not be the cause for developers to dumb down their games. But it is. I go back to my original analogy- should all books become graphic novels because you no longer have the time to read them? This is the kind of mentality that stifles the creative process- when developers have to cater to everyone. I don't see how that's right, imo. If they didn't leave out the detailed and expansive elements in favor of fast-and-furious quests, I wouldn't be bitching.
And that's the problem. Recentl MMOs aren't made with both our playstyles in mind. They're made for yours.
Now that is complete BS. Developers of course have to respond to the needs of the target audience. The ones who did that (for example WOW) reap big rewards.
Heard of EvE-Online? one server 42k players , one system of great fleet battles reaches around 500-600 players...if not Fleet Battles come to JITA
, eve started around 2003 june or something not quiet sure but see wher it stands now? still on the TOP 5 and where is WoW?
Uh? WOW has 40x more subscribers than Eve. You may like Eve but it is no where close to the commercial successs that WOW is.
Heck, even AOC sold more boxes in the first week than Eve has subscribers. LOTR also has more subscribers.
A lot has been said but i think it is too early to send AoC to the grave...
AoC weakness will be the console version and the forced PC-Console same world politic, not any in-game bug or lack of content,.