Some pretty ignorant posts on this thread. Just for your edification, a small company named Turbine brought out a game called Asheron's Call which featured a massive world with more dungeons than any game out there today yet and it had almost no lag even playing it on dial up and it entailed very little zoning.
So don't try to tell me Funcom coded AoC with small areas and heavy instancing the way it did to avoid lag, If you think LOTR is boring don't even bother with AoC, it is going to lead the market as the most boring game todate, bar none.
Why do you think so many people complain about Wow, there is so little challenge in the game. Funcom took it another step farther and removed ALL challenge from the game.
Funcom has proven again they are a minor developer in the field and really do not understand the genre.
You know what's funny? In any open world MMO you play, it's highly unlikely to find more players in an area the size of one of AoCs zones than the AoC player limit.
Open worlds are highly overrated. Once you're out of tortage you get to explore vast zones. Anyone remember EQ1-2?... yeah, they had zones, and still turned out to be good games, isn't that weird?
Once the whoa factor wears off, and the repetition of combat starts getting to you.. aoc starts to feel rather shallow indeed. Because apart from that combat, the game has nothing to offer, except pretty graphics and its combat system.
I was hoping funcom could make a much better world to live and explore in, AO wasnt too bad in that respect. AoC is another cookie cutter wow-like, actually lesser that wow in most respects, except for the combat. Which is fine for people who just want that.
(yes using wow as a comparision, everyone knows what it means so hey, its a decent benchmark to use for crappyness)
Developers, producers, etc have lost who they are targetting their mmos. In the effort to get a very broad audience, they loose the real audience. CCP does a great job at this, they target the kind of player that will like EvE Online. SOE and others not, they try to catter everyone and thus failing with vanilla mmos for all publics. And CCP publicly stated EvE is "very profitable" and it has 200k subscribers. BTW CCP staff is over 200 peeps.
I hope they realize they need to narrow expectations and try to target the right players. Doing the contrary just don't work when you have WoW in front.
If Blizzard is able to stay on top when WAR and AoC hit their stride the game companies will need to re-examine what they are doing and become either more innovative or return to past games that were reasonably successful and copy those as a niche market. Or provide the WoW experience at a cheaper price, but since wow has the sub base it does I don't think that's an option.
If War and AoC take a chunk of WoWs sub base then we will get more of the same until, we the players, get our fill of these themeparks and stop playing. The companies will ask "why?" and then we will get our change.
Also, have you read about Hello Kitty? It has a lot of the features that we miss in MMORPGs and although most of us won't be playing it, perhaps it will get them thinking about online worlds again.
Also Lego Universe looks pretty out there..."I’d say the systems that allow users to generate their own content—things like original, highly customizable creatures as well as static models. It’s just amazing to be able to build your own creation, deploy it and have it come to life in the game world, and then show it off to your friends."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Themepark games are what big companies are focusing on, easy to code, easy to control and easy to sell. And they all suck. For a real MMORPG, start looking for independent developers. That's where it's at.
Yea, I would agree that the independant developers are just about the only hope we have for sandbox or "worldly" MMOs. If just 1 of them breaks through...
You know what's funny? In any open world MMO you play, it's highly unlikely to find more players in an area the size of one of AoCs zones than the AoC player limit. Open worlds are highly overrated. Once you're out of tortage you get to explore vast zones. Anyone remember EQ1-2?... yeah, they had zones, and still turned out to be good games, isn't that weird?
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
Age of Conan is a Gimped PC MMO and an as good as you can get console MMO.
I realized something today.
I have been trying to figure out why they instanced the zones in this game. Why not just go with an open world like most pay to play MMO's.
Then I remembered, Age of Conan is supposed to be showing up on the Xbox 360.
There is your answer, the game has been gimped in this way to suit the console.
What really shows this is that 360 owners will be able to play with the PC players which means the system had to be the same between both. And of course the consoles have never caught up with the PC when it comes to online capabilities.
For instance, most shooters on the xbox have a max of 16 people.
I am sure you know most PC versions have way, way more.
I just dont like the sound of a game that is gimped to suit a console
Age of Conan is a Gimped PC MMO and an as good as you can get console MMO.
I realized something today.
I have been trying to figure out why they instanced the zones in this game. Why not just go with an open world like most pay to play MMO's.
Then I remembered, Age of Conan is supposed to be showing up on the Xbox 360.
There is your answer, the game has been gimped in this way to suit the console.
What really shows this is that 360 owners will be able to play with the PC players which means the system had to be the same between both. And of course the consoles have never caught up with the PC when it comes to online capabilities.
For instance, most shooters on the xbox have a max of 16 people.
I am sure you know most PC versions have way, way more.
I just dont like the sound of a game that is gimped to suit a console
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
The OP only summerized 5...when there are tons of games in the world.
And the sad part is he did not include FFXI and i am sure he didn't play it or one of those players that quit before 30.
If you are a real mmorpg player, you "Must" played FFXI and it is only and only one of those that can hold the "true" about MMORPG.
All other games are just "single" players games in a MMORPG environment.
You level in asheron's call and mostly are ALONE from 1-100 or to 255 (if you are that extreme).. the monarchy system helps but you still do alot "ALONE" single playing.
Everquest is no different and DAOC is the same. Anarchy online also rely on single playing...
You can say every games on the market doesn't "have" this Mass-multiplayer environment where players are bond together.
Only FFXI does. It force grouping as soon you reach 10. You never and mostly will have the chance to go "alone" quest, mission, storyline or even exp.
It operate in a massive world where there are constants "700" players battles happen every day.
You are playing a game with NO boundary... Japanese, korean, chinese, ... european, North america...
how many games can you count that have the "world" playing in it? WoW? ...japanese doesn't play WoW.. i can tell you that for sure... it isn't even popular.
The one that hold true MMORPG colour is FFXI and yet, no one mention it... you guys simply just outlining a "single players game with online element" not a true MMORPG.
The OP only summerized 5...when there are tons of games in the world. And the sad part is he did not include FFXI and i am sure he didn't play it or one of those players that quit before 30. If you are a real mmorpg player, you "Must" played FFXI and it is only and only one of those that can hold the "true" about MMORPG. All other games are just "single" players games in a MMORPG environment. You level in asheron's call and mostly are ALONE from 1-100 or to 255 (if you are that extreme).. the monarchy system helps but you still do alot "ALONE" single playing. Everquest is no different and DAOC is the same. Anarchy online also rely on single playing... You can say every games on the market doesn't "have" this Mass-multiplayer environment where players are bond together.
Only FFXI does. It force grouping as soon you reach 10. You never and mostly will have the chance to go "alone" quest, mission, storyline or even exp. It operate in a massive world where there are constants "700" players battles happen every day. You are playing a game with NO boundary... Japanese, korean, chinese, ... european, North america... how many games can you count that have the "world" playing in it? WoW? ...japanese doesn't play WoW.. i can tell you that for sure... it isn't even popular.
The one that hold true MMORPG colour is FFXI and yet, no one mention it... you guys simply just outlining a "single players game with online element" not a true MMORPG.
Amen! I guess people overlook it because its old, but square has done a great job of keeping things new. Long live FF11
Developers, producers, etc have lost who they are targetting their mmos. In the effort to get a very broad audience, they loose the real audience. CCP does a great job at this, they target the kind of player that will like EvE Online. SOE and others not, they try to catter everyone and thus failing with vanilla mmos for all publics. And CCP publicly stated EvE is "very profitable" and it has 200k subscribers. BTW CCP staff is over 200 peeps. I hope they realize they need to narrow expectations and try to target the right players. Doing the contrary just don't work when you have WoW in front.
On your two thoughts:
1) I'm guessing there's only room for one 'vanilla' MMORPG and Blizzard has it locked down.
Until WOW is dethroned all other developers will have to target niche audiences. Really nothing wrong with that; it can be a successful strategy.
2) Each 'niche' publisher will have to cultivate their customers and grow incrementally.
You indicate that each CCP staff is supported by 1,000 paying customers. This is the extended version of the '1,000 True Fan' business model. As articulated here:
We need the RPG as in MMORPG..not just MMO.I remember I got my first computer in 98 and then i found a little game called Meridian 59..Talk about a sense of wonder...Not only funcom but I don't see any developer at the present that makes anything but just generic kill this ....fetch that....go there..fetch that..Ad nauseum ......they are good for Diablo 2 fans..Sigh
Although I'm the last person to say the only good measure of a MMORPG is the subscriber statistics, you cannot rule that out of the equation all together. Sadly the things that make great MMORPGS like Neocron (concept not execution) and EVE online (concept and execution) do not make a number 1 or even a number 10 seller. These are two inherently different things as demonstrated by the general selection criteria you have used to define a great MMORPG. The other examples of deplorable pandering to the masses are simply good business, not good games. Someday the people cut back from the major studios will find a way to make a game great without necessarily getting rich while doing it.
I'm having a blast in AoC. I do lots of grouping, lots of pvp, love the graphics, I always see lots of people in the instance I'm in.
But I never liked WoW. So I don't think it's a WoW to AoC progression thing.
I was also a huge fan of CoX, so instancing doesn't really stop me from having fun.
To be honest, I don't think the MMO community will ever be happy. Too many people spend to much time bashing games they don't like, giving anti pr. It's Blizzard's dream come true.
The same thing is going to happen to WAR, the community is going to rip it apart.
I do think the OP is right, it is the end of MMOs. But I put the blame on the community not the developers.
If you don't like a game, just quit. No need to make 10 I cancel posts. No need to make 200 posts about why the game sucks on other forums, just quit. All you are doing is helping Blizzard out.
And for the record, me favorite online RPG experience was a mud. PvP, full loot, eventual perma death. And roleplay enforced. GMs would deal with gankers and would interact with the players constantly. It was a great experience, and guess what, there was about 100 – 200 people on at any given time. Not massive at all.
I don't know that massive is the answer to a great online RPG experience.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller !
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success
-------
R.I.P Massive
This is all true.
I've played MMORPGS for 8 years now and ahve gone through the good MMORPGS to the shit MMORPGS.
I don't agree with the LOTRO been a WoW clone though; it was easy, but it was funner than WoW so there's an echievement in itself. ( LOTRO just didn't have enough content, I hit level 50 got the best Halberd in the game and finished all my Class Quests in the span of 2 days, a week later I raided and killed all but the dragon ).
You know what's funny? In any open world MMO you play, it's highly unlikely to find more players in an area the size of one of AoCs zones than the AoC player limit. Open worlds are highly overrated. Once you're out of tortage you get to explore vast zones. Anyone remember EQ1-2?... yeah, they had zones, and still turned out to be good games, isn't that weird?
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
I think you still haven’t figured out what instances are. EQ2 is a zoned world and it does allow multiple copies of the same zone but it was nowhere close to the first game to do this. In MMO parlance an instance is when the game takes you and your group outside of the shared world and puts you in a private area all your own. EQ2 does some of this but less then most games on the market.
Over 4 years ago Blizzard laughed in the face of mmorpg player , and said : MMO player is not interested in complexity , not in virtual world simulation , nor in sandbox gameplay. MMO player wants to be spoon fed with premade choices , premade classes , and simplistic but FUN gameplay....You dont believe us? Look at our subscription numbers. WOW went on and became a hallmark , not only of MMO success , but PC game success....
4 years have indeed passed , and proven Blizzard was right. Developers or utterly failed to make any complex MMO. It seemed that what was possible before (AC,UO,SWG) todays coders just can not do anymore.... Or companies just went and made singleplayer online rpgs with multiplay element (Guildwars , DDO)
SWG was butchered to appeal more to mass market - and so one of the last true MMO was killed. Years passed.... Vanguard came as the last hope for MMORPG player. Something we dreamed of....turned out to be a scam of drug addict developer
Daddy of MMO genre Richard Garriot - goes and makes instanced half baked shooter MMO...
and Turbine makes copy of WOW with LOTR skin...
MMORPG genre is bleeding , dying on the ground.... And there goes Funcom with AOC - It is a FUN game. But everything that MMO stands for is removed....It is just a collection of small areas that can barely hold 50 players in same instance - connected with loading screens. Player interaction is brought to the bare minimum. Exploration is removed.Crafting is a funny minigame. Trading is pointless. It is still fun game. But it is not MMO. It is not Massive.... But FUNCOM succeds! It is a bestseller !
......... So what are developer companies to do now ? If there was ever doubt , now it is clear Massive = Failure Mini Online RPG = Success
-------
R.I.P Massive
This may be long winded..
WoW has been an success because they made a very easy to get into mmorpg, fitted with alot of solid mechanics from it's senior mmorpg releases, and went with it. WoW, in essence, is a solid mmorpg. They understood that massive also meant extremly forgiving technical requirements, and a good solid interface that didnt confuse new people to the genre.
Everquest was an success because of the sheer freedom at release. It didnt hold your hand, but it didnt tell you no. You had unique classes, isolated starter zones that were surrounded by natural barriers of higher level mobs, that if you faced, allowed you to go to other cities. That was a big thing for me in everquest. The natural mob barriers enticed you to try to see what was on the other side. Not only entice, but you also knew somewhere, across that dangerious plain or forest, was another race thinking the same thing about your side. You could run it and maybe escape from a giant or deadly orcs, even halfing bandits on your way to the ButcherBlock docks as a high elf to meet your Human friend.
Vanguard suffered from an inability to tell the players a gameplay model and stick with it. They couldnt give the players the benefit of knowing that their time was placed in [b]confident[/b] hands. The game had everything it needed, at launch mind you, to keep players there and going. It lacked confidence in itself, and that lack of stability screamed a potential waste of time, rather than a potential to succeed. Over time it has slowly been shifted to another mindset and has yet to find what niche it wants.
Age of Conan is an attempt to take the environment of guildwars and mix it with attitude. For some, and maybe even many, this is their niche. However the game wont sustain anything past a niche because it constricts too many aspects of MMO in trade for sheer action. Perhaps, in some perceptions, it is a MMORPG for the FPS crowd. The action is fast, the focus is AoE and wide spread carnage. There is a somewhat lack of focus in trade for the mass destruction effect, and once again, some are attracted to it. They are going to keeping going where Guildwars left off, and it is going to work for the audience they intended to have.
We, the audience overall, is the issue however. We are so vocal on what we want that we forget to also let the developers know what we can live with as well. AoC was never, nor will it ever, be a smashing hit with longevity. It will have, like lotr, a stable sub base that enjoy what they have to offer. But that is good, because in the end, I think that is what everyone from all sides wants.
You want a mmorpg like the old days? It will never happen. What can happen is a simplistic mmorpg to come out with enough to entice the grand masses, and slowly, but surely, complicate it's focus and be able to adopt and satisfy several playstyles. WoW cannot do this because it is too late to move in those directions. I have been in this market as a customer for over 10 years myself, and have no plans to leave.
Even if I hate a mmorpg, I will buy it, and pay a first month or two sub. Why? Because every single mmorpg success will entice more companies to build a team and make one as well. Each time one is built, I have a chance to FIND a home again for years, not months. Each failure results in a potential team that can build what I will truely enjoy again never being made because a company dosent want to waste 30-40million dollars on a market with no peices of the pie left to share.
I hate AoC and how it plays, but I will support them and hope they succeed so another company might be encouraged to take a leap and bring some freash blood to the market. Sounds like idiocy to some yes, but for me, its a waiting game and I can wait. I am just going to do my part.
And for the record, me favorite online RPG experience was a mud. PvP, full loot, eventual perma death. And roleplay enforced. GMs would deal with gankers and would interact with the players constantly. It was a great experience, and guess what, there was about 100 – 200 people on at any given time. Not massive at all.
I don't know that massive is the answer to a great online RPG experience.
you forget around 200 people for a MUD was an insane success. That was massive back then from what I recall
WoW has been an success because they made a very easy to get into mmorpg, fitted with alot of solid mechanics from it's senior mmorpg releases, and went with it. WoW, in essence, is a solid mmorpg. They understood that massive also meant extremly forgiving technical requirements, and a good solid interface that didnt confuse new people to the genre. Everquest was an success because of the sheer freedom at release. It didnt hold your hand, but it didnt tell you no. You had unique classes, isolated starter zones that were surrounded by natural barriers of higher level mobs, that if you faced, allowed you to go to other cities. That was a big thing for me in everquest. The natural mob barriers enticed you to try to see what was on the other side. Not only entice, but you also knew somewhere, across that dangerious plain or forest, was another race thinking the same thing about your side. You could run it and maybe escape from a giant or deadly orcs, even halfing bandits on your way to the ButcherBlock docks as a high elf to meet your Human friend. Vanguard suffered from an inability to tell the players a gameplay model and stick with it. They couldnt give the players the benefit of knowing that their time was placed in [b]confident[/b] hands. The game had everything it needed, at launch mind you, to keep players there and going. It lacked confidence in itself, and that lack of stability screamed a potential waste of time, rather than a potential to succeed. Over time it has slowly been shifted to another mindset and has yet to find what niche it wants. Age of Conan is an attempt to take the environment of guildwars and mix it with attitude. For some, and maybe even many, this is their niche. However the game wont sustain anything past a niche because it constricts too many aspects of MMO in trade for sheer action. Perhaps, in some perceptions, it is a MMORPG for the FPS crowd. The action is fast, the focus is AoE and wide spread carnage. There is a somewhat lack of focus in trade for the mass destruction effect, and once again, some are attracted to it. They are going to keeping going where Guildwars left off, and it is going to work for the audience they intended to have.
We, the audience overall, is the issue however. We are so vocal on what we want that we forget to also let the developers know what we can live with as well. AoC was never, nor will it ever, be a smashing hit with longevity. It will have, like lotr, a stable sub base that enjoy what they have to offer. But that is good, because in the end, I think that is what everyone from all sides wants.
You want a mmorpg like the old days? It will never happen. What can happen is a simplistic mmorpg to come out with enough to entice the grand masses, and slowly, but surely, complicate it's focus and be able to adopt and satisfy several playstyles. WoW cannot do this because it is too late to move in those directions. I have been in this market as a customer for over 10 years myself, and have no plans to leave.
Even if I hate a mmorpg, I will buy it, and pay a first month or two sub. Why? Because every single mmorpg success will entice more companies to build a team and make one as well. Each time one is built, I have a chance to FIND a home again for years, not months. Each failure results in a potential team that can build what I will truely enjoy again never being made because a company dosent want to waste 30-40million dollars on a market with no peices of the pie left to share. I hate AoC and how it plays, but I will support them and hope they succeed so another company might be encouraged to take a leap and bring some freash blood to the market. Sounds like idiocy to some yes, but for me, its a waiting game and I can wait. I am just going to do my part.
Great post. Very well-written. I happen to agree as well, though I'm not so sure that there will never be another hardcore MMO.
Although we're obviously not the majority, I've talked a great many players who miss the sense of accomplishment, teamwork, danger, excitement, challenge, and downright player involvement that Everquest 1 provided and are disappointed with all the dumbed down MMOs that have come out since (and including) WoW. Gamers looking for these things may not be in the majority, but I believe a game could draw at least half a million subscribers if they created a game like that. Just look at how many people still play EQ1 despite the fact that it's leveling system and economy are completely hosed and it's got 9 year-old graphics.
You know what's funny? In any open world MMO you play, it's highly unlikely to find more players in an area the size of one of AoCs zones than the AoC player limit. Open worlds are highly overrated. Once you're out of tortage you get to explore vast zones. Anyone remember EQ1-2?... yeah, they had zones, and still turned out to be good games, isn't that weird?
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
I think you still haven’t figured out what instances are. EQ2 is a zoned world and it does allow multiple copies of the same zone but it was nowhere close to the first game to do this. In MMO parlance an instance is when the game takes you and your group outside of the shared world and puts you in a private area all your own. EQ2 does some of this but less then most games on the market.
For programmers there is little distinction. Server side they are spawning a copy of the world for a selection of people. You are in an instance in EQ2 when they shard the entire region. Eq2 does it too much of this and the sad state of the game at launch was pretty inexcusable. I hear AoC gamers talking about running out of quests at Lvl 40+. We ran out of quests in EQ2 wayyyyyy sooner
While i agree that this game removes one of the mmo's trademark(immersion) i cant agree that it deals a coup-de-grace to the genre.I think that the people who share op's opinion are afraid that the rest of the games that will come out, will be the same(having graphic engine that a few pc's can handle and making the game instanced).They are blinded and cant see the good outcome of all this.
By having commercial mmo's like aoc or war introducing some new features or lets better say different from the usual ones(combat system,crafting,customization,better storylines and making things like building standard ) they upgrade the whole genre they dont kill it, instead they are making the market more competitive so things like the one's mentioned above will be taken in serious consideration before a game is even created.About instancing, lets be serious now i haven't seen any other mmo like aoc having such graphics so what the problem people?Do you think a lot of other companies will do the same thing?I think not.
Comments
Some pretty ignorant posts on this thread. Just for your edification, a small company named Turbine brought out a game called Asheron's Call which featured a massive world with more dungeons than any game out there today yet and it had almost no lag even playing it on dial up and it entailed very little zoning.
So don't try to tell me Funcom coded AoC with small areas and heavy instancing the way it did to avoid lag, If you think LOTR is boring don't even bother with AoC, it is going to lead the market as the most boring game todate, bar none.
Why do you think so many people complain about Wow, there is so little challenge in the game. Funcom took it another step farther and removed ALL challenge from the game.
Funcom has proven again they are a minor developer in the field and really do not understand the genre.
You know what's funny? In any open world MMO you play, it's highly unlikely to find more players in an area the size of one of AoCs zones than the AoC player limit.
Open worlds are highly overrated. Once you're out of tortage you get to explore vast zones. Anyone remember EQ1-2?... yeah, they had zones, and still turned out to be good games, isn't that weird?
You cant call a p2p mmo a success until all the free 30 day trials are up and subs start to generate money.
Also, lotro is not a wow clone with a lotr skin.
Once the whoa factor wears off, and the repetition of combat starts getting to you.. aoc starts to feel rather shallow indeed. Because apart from that combat, the game has nothing to offer, except pretty graphics and its combat system.
I was hoping funcom could make a much better world to live and explore in, AO wasnt too bad in that respect. AoC is another cookie cutter wow-like, actually lesser that wow in most respects, except for the combat. Which is fine for people who just want that.
(yes using wow as a comparision, everyone knows what it means so hey, its a decent benchmark to use for crappyness)
Developers, producers, etc have lost who they are targetting their mmos. In the effort to get a very broad audience, they loose the real audience. CCP does a great job at this, they target the kind of player that will like EvE Online. SOE and others not, they try to catter everyone and thus failing with vanilla mmos for all publics. And CCP publicly stated EvE is "very profitable" and it has 200k subscribers. BTW CCP staff is over 200 peeps.
I hope they realize they need to narrow expectations and try to target the right players. Doing the contrary just don't work when you have WoW in front.
If Blizzard is able to stay on top when WAR and AoC hit their stride the game companies will need to re-examine what they are doing and become either more innovative or return to past games that were reasonably successful and copy those as a niche market. Or provide the WoW experience at a cheaper price, but since wow has the sub base it does I don't think that's an option.
If War and AoC take a chunk of WoWs sub base then we will get more of the same until, we the players, get our fill of these themeparks and stop playing. The companies will ask "why?" and then we will get our change.
Also, have you read about Hello Kitty? It has a lot of the features that we miss in MMORPGs and although most of us won't be playing it, perhaps it will get them thinking about online worlds again.
Also Lego Universe looks pretty out there..."I’d say the systems that allow users to generate their own content—things like original, highly customizable creatures as well as static models. It’s just amazing to be able to build your own creation, deploy it and have it come to life in the game world, and then show it off to your friends."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Yea, I would agree that the independant developers are just about the only hope we have for sandbox or "worldly" MMOs. If just 1 of them breaks through...
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
Age of Conan is a Gimped PC MMO and an as good as you can get console MMO.
I realized something today.
I have been trying to figure out why they instanced the zones in this game. Why not just go with an open world like most pay to play MMO's.
Then I remembered, Age of Conan is supposed to be showing up on the Xbox 360.
There is your answer, the game has been gimped in this way to suit the console.
What really shows this is that 360 owners will be able to play with the PC players which means the system had to be the same between both. And of course the consoles have never caught up with the PC when it comes to online capabilities.
For instance, most shooters on the xbox have a max of 16 people.
I am sure you know most PC versions have way, way more.
I just dont like the sound of a game that is gimped to suit a console
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
The OP only summerized 5...when there are tons of games in the world.
And the sad part is he did not include FFXI and i am sure he didn't play it or one of those players that quit before 30.
If you are a real mmorpg player, you "Must" played FFXI and it is only and only one of those that can hold the "true" about MMORPG.
All other games are just "single" players games in a MMORPG environment.
You level in asheron's call and mostly are ALONE from 1-100 or to 255 (if you are that extreme).. the monarchy system helps but you still do alot "ALONE" single playing.
Everquest is no different and DAOC is the same. Anarchy online also rely on single playing...
You can say every games on the market doesn't "have" this Mass-multiplayer environment where players are bond together.
Only FFXI does. It force grouping as soon you reach 10. You never and mostly will have the chance to go "alone" quest, mission, storyline or even exp.
It operate in a massive world where there are constants "700" players battles happen every day.
You are playing a game with NO boundary... Japanese, korean, chinese, ... european, North america...
how many games can you count that have the "world" playing in it? WoW? ...japanese doesn't play WoW.. i can tell you that for sure... it isn't even popular.
The one that hold true MMORPG colour is FFXI and yet, no one mention it... you guys simply just outlining a "single players game with online element" not a true MMORPG.
none
Amen! I guess people overlook it because its old, but square has done a great job of keeping things new. Long live FF11
1) I'm guessing there's only room for one 'vanilla' MMORPG and Blizzard has it locked down.
Until WOW is dethroned all other developers will have to target niche audiences. Really nothing wrong with that; it can be a successful strategy.
2) Each 'niche' publisher will have to cultivate their customers and grow incrementally.
You indicate that each CCP staff is supported by 1,000 paying customers. This is the extended version of the '1,000 True Fan' business model. As articulated here:
http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php
Stanley.
Meridian59 '96-'99/Everquest (Vallon Zek) '99-'03/Shadowbane '03/SWG '04/This and that '05-'10/Eve Online '11/LotR '11-'12
I wonder how all the doomsayers are going to feel when, in 10 years, there are 5-10 times the number of people playing MMOGs today.
We need the RPG as in MMORPG..not just MMO.I remember I got my first computer in 98 and then i found a little game called Meridian 59..Talk about a sense of wonder...Not only funcom but I don't see any developer at the present that makes anything but just generic kill this ....fetch that....go there..fetch that..Ad nauseum ......they are good for Diablo 2 fans..Sigh
Although I'm the last person to say the only good measure of a MMORPG is the subscriber statistics, you cannot rule that out of the equation all together. Sadly the things that make great MMORPGS like Neocron (concept not execution) and EVE online (concept and execution) do not make a number 1 or even a number 10 seller. These are two inherently different things as demonstrated by the general selection criteria you have used to define a great MMORPG. The other examples of deplorable pandering to the masses are simply good business, not good games. Someday the people cut back from the major studios will find a way to make a game great without necessarily getting rich while doing it.
Come join the feudal goodness
I'm having a blast in AoC. I do lots of grouping, lots of pvp, love the graphics, I always see lots of people in the instance I'm in.
But I never liked WoW. So I don't think it's a WoW to AoC progression thing.
I was also a huge fan of CoX, so instancing doesn't really stop me from having fun.
To be honest, I don't think the MMO community will ever be happy. Too many people spend to much time bashing games they don't like, giving anti pr. It's Blizzard's dream come true.
The same thing is going to happen to WAR, the community is going to rip it apart.
I do think the OP is right, it is the end of MMOs. But I put the blame on the community not the developers.
If you don't like a game, just quit. No need to make 10 I cancel posts. No need to make 200 posts about why the game sucks on other forums, just quit. All you are doing is helping Blizzard out.
And for the record, me favorite online RPG experience was a mud. PvP, full loot, eventual perma death. And roleplay enforced. GMs would deal with gankers and would interact with the players constantly. It was a great experience, and guess what, there was about 100 – 200 people on at any given time. Not massive at all.
I don't know that massive is the answer to a great online RPG experience.
This is all true.
I've played MMORPGS for 8 years now and ahve gone through the good MMORPGS to the shit MMORPGS.
I don't agree with the LOTRO been a WoW clone though; it was easy, but it was funner than WoW so there's an echievement in itself. ( LOTRO just didn't have enough content, I hit level 50 got the best Halberd in the game and finished all my Class Quests in the span of 2 days, a week later I raided and killed all but the dragon ).
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
I think you still haven’t figured out what instances are. EQ2 is a zoned world and it does allow multiple copies of the same zone but it was nowhere close to the first game to do this. In MMO parlance an instance is when the game takes you and your group outside of the shared world and puts you in a private area all your own. EQ2 does some of this but less then most games on the market.
WoW has been an success because they made a very easy to get into mmorpg, fitted with alot of solid mechanics from it's senior mmorpg releases, and went with it. WoW, in essence, is a solid mmorpg. They understood that massive also meant extremly forgiving technical requirements, and a good solid interface that didnt confuse new people to the genre.
Everquest was an success because of the sheer freedom at release. It didnt hold your hand, but it didnt tell you no. You had unique classes, isolated starter zones that were surrounded by natural barriers of higher level mobs, that if you faced, allowed you to go to other cities. That was a big thing for me in everquest. The natural mob barriers enticed you to try to see what was on the other side. Not only entice, but you also knew somewhere, across that dangerious plain or forest, was another race thinking the same thing about your side. You could run it and maybe escape from a giant or deadly orcs, even halfing bandits on your way to the ButcherBlock docks as a high elf to meet your Human friend.
Vanguard suffered from an inability to tell the players a gameplay model and stick with it. They couldnt give the players the benefit of knowing that their time was placed in [b]confident[/b] hands. The game had everything it needed, at launch mind you, to keep players there and going. It lacked confidence in itself, and that lack of stability screamed a potential waste of time, rather than a potential to succeed. Over time it has slowly been shifted to another mindset and has yet to find what niche it wants.
Age of Conan is an attempt to take the environment of guildwars and mix it with attitude. For some, and maybe even many, this is their niche. However the game wont sustain anything past a niche because it constricts too many aspects of MMO in trade for sheer action. Perhaps, in some perceptions, it is a MMORPG for the FPS crowd. The action is fast, the focus is AoE and wide spread carnage. There is a somewhat lack of focus in trade for the mass destruction effect, and once again, some are attracted to it. They are going to keeping going where Guildwars left off, and it is going to work for the audience they intended to have.
We, the audience overall, is the issue however. We are so vocal on what we want that we forget to also let the developers know what we can live with as well. AoC was never, nor will it ever, be a smashing hit with longevity. It will have, like lotr, a stable sub base that enjoy what they have to offer. But that is good, because in the end, I think that is what everyone from all sides wants.
You want a mmorpg like the old days? It will never happen. What can happen is a simplistic mmorpg to come out with enough to entice the grand masses, and slowly, but surely, complicate it's focus and be able to adopt and satisfy several playstyles. WoW cannot do this because it is too late to move in those directions. I have been in this market as a customer for over 10 years myself, and have no plans to leave.
Even if I hate a mmorpg, I will buy it, and pay a first month or two sub. Why? Because every single mmorpg success will entice more companies to build a team and make one as well. Each time one is built, I have a chance to FIND a home again for years, not months. Each failure results in a potential team that can build what I will truely enjoy again never being made because a company dosent want to waste 30-40million dollars on a market with no peices of the pie left to share.
I hate AoC and how it plays, but I will support them and hope they succeed so another company might be encouraged to take a leap and bring some freash blood to the market. Sounds like idiocy to some yes, but for me, its a waiting game and I can wait. I am just going to do my part.
you forget around 200 people for a MUD was an insane success. That was massive back then from what I recall
Great post. Very well-written. I happen to agree as well, though I'm not so sure that there will never be another hardcore MMO.
Although we're obviously not the majority, I've talked a great many players who miss the sense of accomplishment, teamwork, danger, excitement, challenge, and downright player involvement that Everquest 1 provided and are disappointed with all the dumbed down MMOs that have come out since (and including) WoW. Gamers looking for these things may not be in the majority, but I believe a game could draw at least half a million subscribers if they created a game like that. Just look at how many people still play EQ1 despite the fact that it's leveling system and economy are completely hosed and it's got 9 year-old graphics.
What was good about EQ2 I remem that was our first instanced MMO we ever saw. my buddy and I were talking to the same NPC but we were in different instances. We were like tripping out. Then we finally figured out what instances were and joined each other
Finally we get to the towns hoping to see hundreds of players all in one place and what do ya know we are split again. then we go outside to kill some wildlife and what do ya know they sharded that too
I left EQ2 over that it didnt feel like an MMO too me. I hate to say this but I left it for WoW which felt like 100x an MMO at the time. I did miss the nice sound track and well done characters in EQ2 thats bout it. didnt miss the crafting or lack of pvp at launch or team debt XP etc
Back before battlegrounds I remem WoW surged in a big way in world pvp somewhat. Well it got a little better. You saw hundreds of players at Tarren mill. but then blizz ruined it
Some people like instanced MMO but I dont and it makes the pvp suffer (edit- to clarify I am speaking of EQ2 here)
I think you still haven’t figured out what instances are. EQ2 is a zoned world and it does allow multiple copies of the same zone but it was nowhere close to the first game to do this. In MMO parlance an instance is when the game takes you and your group outside of the shared world and puts you in a private area all your own. EQ2 does some of this but less then most games on the market.
For programmers there is little distinction. Server side they are spawning a copy of the world for a selection of people. You are in an instance in EQ2 when they shard the entire region. Eq2 does it too much of this and the sad state of the game at launch was pretty inexcusable. I hear AoC gamers talking about running out of quests at Lvl 40+. We ran out of quests in EQ2 wayyyyyy sooner
While i agree that this game removes one of the mmo's trademark(immersion) i cant agree that it deals a coup-de-grace to the genre.I think that the people who share op's opinion are afraid that the rest of the games that will come out, will be the same(having graphic engine that a few pc's can handle and making the game instanced).They are blinded and cant see the good outcome of all this.
By having commercial mmo's like aoc or war introducing some new features or lets better say different from the usual ones(combat system,crafting,customization,better storylines and making things like building standard ) they upgrade the whole genre they dont kill it, instead they are making the market more competitive so things like the one's mentioned above will be taken in serious consideration before a game is even created.About instancing, lets be serious now i haven't seen any other mmo like aoc having such graphics so what the problem people?Do you think a lot of other companies will do the same thing?I think not.