The story of two business men. Business man 1 and 2 both have the same job. Business man 1 spends more time at work and makes more money than business man 2. Business man 2 spends as little time at is job as possible, just enough to get him through life. The rest of the time he spends going out and doing other tasks, which he deems as having a life. At the next company event, the CEO announces that there will be a car race and that the winner will get a bonus. So all of the business men picked to participate line up on a cleared road. Business man 1 wins and business man 2 complains, "hey thats not fair you have an expensive sports car"!!! The business man 1 looks at the cheap minivan that Business man 2 is driving. Business man 1 states "well thats what you picked to race with". Business man 2 gets mad and says "but i have a life, i dont want to have to work more hours to get enough income to buy a sports car"! The business man 1 replies "well why are you upset that you lost then? should I have driven slowly so you won?" Business man 2 stomps his feet "of course i should had a chance, you get all the nice cars, boats, suits, its not fair! I am not having fun because you have more than me". Business man 1 looks at him and says "its what i worked for to get, i am responsible for my own time and rewards. I dont feel superior about it, but it does feel nice to get the nicer things in life when you work for them." Business man 2 replies "Then we should make it so that everyone has the same thing. Just because I have a life!" Business man 1 returns "so you want communism?" then shakes his head and walks away. I like what this one developer said... Steve M: "Casual" is the term that I always use. I like the definition, first put forward by Dave Rohrl at Pogo, that casual gamers are players who would never list "playing games" as one of their primary interests. I also like to say that for a casual game to be successful, you should be able to write everything you need to know to play the game on one side of an index card.
apples and oranges
you cannot generalize this subject to everyday life. put yourself in the developer's shoes: its a game, its supposed to be fun (for everybody), its designed to generate craploads of cash.
with only 10-20% of subscriber base playing as hardcore, would I want to make the game less fullfilling for the majority of my monthly subscriber base? a smart company would not bite the hand that feeds them. besides, as a hardcore gamer, how is your experience lessened by having casuals that can actually stand up to you in a fight?
on the flip side, if me, as a casual consistantly gets rolled by a nerd in epic gear and i have no chance, then whats the point of continuing to play? this is why i gave up WoW.
...and as a side note, I consider myself a hardcore casual. i have probably spent more time than most hardcores in WoW, and I still got rolled. why? because I'm one of those players that didnt do big raids. But I did level all the different classes to 70, and some classes twice. And I couldnt compete in PvP....is that fair by your judgement?
-------------------------- Electric football is 'old school' gaming.
The story of two business men. Business man 1 and 2 both have the same job. Business man 1 spends more time at work and makes more money than business man 2. Business man 2 spends as little time at is job as possible, just enough to get him through life. The rest of the time he spends going out and doing other tasks, which he deems as having a life. At the next company event, the CEO announces that there will be a car race and that the winner will get a bonus. So all of the business men picked to participate line up on a cleared road. Business man 1 wins and business man 2 complains, "hey thats not fair you have an expensive sports car"!!! The business man 1 looks at the cheap minivan that Business man 2 is driving. Business man 1 states "well thats what you picked to race with". Business man 2 gets mad and says "but i have a life, i dont want to have to work more hours to get enough income to buy a sports car"! The business man 1 replies "well why are you upset that you lost then? should I have driven slowly so you won?" Business man 2 stomps his feet "of course i should had a chance, you get all the nice cars, boats, suits, its not fair! I am not having fun because you have more than me". Business man 1 looks at him and says "its what i worked for to get, i am responsible for my own time and rewards. I dont feel superior about it, but it does feel nice to get the nicer things in life when you work for them." Business man 2 replies "Then we should make it so that everyone has the same thing. Just because I have a life!" Business man 1 returns "so you want communism?" then shakes his head and walks away. I like what this one developer said... Steve M: "Casual" is the term that I always use. I like the definition, first put forward by Dave Rohrl at Pogo, that casual gamers are players who would never list "playing games" as one of their primary interests. I also like to say that for a casual game to be successful, you should be able to write everything you need to know to play the game on one side of an index card.
You need to take your example and use it in your "real life". The example is completely valid, but to suggest that all MMORPGs should be time = reward when they are first and foremost a GAME is completely dumb. I do understand the desire for being rewarded for the work you put in, don't get me wrong. But to suggest that casuals shouldn't have a fighting chance just because they can't play as much is stupid.
What if Businessman 2 had a wife and a mother both sick with cancer? What if he had to spend time and money taking care of them, so he couldn't afford the nicer car? This is what happens with most casuals - they have OTHER OBLIGATIONS that come before playing a GAME. Sure, when they have freetime they could choose to do something else, but if they do enjoy MMOs then they'll choose MMOs.
WAR has already said it's more of a game than a world. It wants to be fun for everyone, not realistic - because as you just pointed out, in the real world, the more work you put in the better reward you'll get.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf Originally posted by Centhan Ive seen some, but not much on this subject. Hopefully one of you beta testers could answer it. I believe I speak for most casual players when I say that we are the group of people who dont want to live a game and have it totally encompass our lives, but just play to have fun. We dont play 24/7, but fit our game time in after playing the much more interesting game called real life. Anyway, is WAR the type of game where you dont stand a chance unless you play until your eyes bleed for months on end in order to obtain the most uber leet gear so you can pwn the latest noobs? Or is it the type of game where someone who has a life can come into the game to have some fun PVP action and actually contribute to the battles going on?
If its the former, I wont be a lasting subscriber. While I know there is a market for that type of game, its one I will not be playing. If its the later, theyll have my money for many months to come.
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww". The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre. Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out. WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more. Dont like it? Play a different genre.
So your saying that the casual gamer should not be allowed the same thing as a so called "hardcore" gamer because he has a life that doesnt involve sitting in front of his computer 24/7. I am more of a semi-casual gamer at the moment, that dont mean i cant play as good or better than some hardcore geek who never leaves the house. Your belief is very flawed.....just wanted you to know that.
casuals can work harder than some who put 10 times as much time into a game and at the same time, some players that put in 100 times more time can put in more work than a casual player. i would bet that my EQ Ranger could take 90% of Rangers no matter how they were equipped and i proved many a times over.
I also class myself as a casual player in MMO's and have taken quite some offence at the assumption casual players want things instantly. Now I can of course not speak for every person, but my view of what a casual player is as follows.
We have less time than hardcore players, this does not mean we want more for less effort because of our time restrictions, it simply means we have less time to play so want to have the 'chance' at a satisfying game session for the time we have available.
We work just as hard as other players, we just don't do it in long runs of time, we do it over days / weeks / even possibly months. Most casual players I know accept this fact. If a quest asks us to kill 100 of 'mob x' a hardcore player may just go & do it right off the bat, no breaks, no stops just killing. A casual player will still kill those 100 mobs but maybe in 2 or even 3 game sessions.
Now I have made what I feel is my point can I ask, why should there be a difference in reward for the 2 ways these players kill their 100 mobs. They both killed them, they both earned the reward, but are different player styles. Should there truly be a difference is the rewards because they both achieved the same thing in different ways?
Agree, and another point Time does not = hard work casuals can work harder than some who put 10 times as much time into a game and at the same time, some players that put in 100 times more time can put in more work than a casual player. i would bet that my EQ Ranger could take 90% of Rangers no matter how they were equipped and i proved many a times over.
In fact, the LESS time you have to do something, the MORE you want to accomplish in that time, thus making you BETTER at it.
Just wanted to point that out too.
For example, many times you have this situation:
Casual: Damn I only have an hour and a half, I want to get these Duskwood quests done fast, at least 5 before I have to log.
Hardcore: Damn I'm bored, what am I going to do? Well, I have some Duskwood quests to finish up but, hey, I have all day...what should I do...I think I'm going to go get a soda.
The point being, if business man 2 spends the same amount of time over a longer duration, he to can have the nice sports car, but he doesnt want to wait or spend the time over all, and thus is bitter at business man 1, who could also have a family but manages his time better.
In regards to WAR, it will be very casual gamer friendly but at the same time as a rpg, it has to set itself apart from the everyone stands an equal chance Unreal Tournament pvp. Its still an rpg.
Which goes to saying the RPG is not a casual gamer friendly genre, and should not be changed to fit their "its not fair" mentality. Its funny but PvE players love to categorize all PvP players as immature trash talking children, and in turn they are generalized as carebears with insecurity issues, just as casual gamers are generalizing hard core gamers as being kids with out a life. They are all wrong and bitter.
The nice thing about WAR is that they learned from WoW's mistake, which WoW also learned from. That being 40 man raids is not good because it only rewards large guilds which can spend 7 hours preparing and drudging through the raid.
The whole idea of a very difficult raid dungeon is good, but getting that many people together is not. Thus, WAR limits the Raid dungeons to 6 players each, each wing of a dungeon taking anywhere from 2-4 hours with nice rewards for taking down a difficult boss.
Casual players might complain about this, but, the fact that it is 6 players and not 40 means its still viable. If you plan a fishing trip in RL, and set aside a day to go out and catch some big fish, then the reward = food and a day spend having fun. Its no different. Casual players can achieve it too if they plan a raid dungeon day like they would a fishing trip. Yet many will complain that they have lives and cannot do a dungeon or that it should be easy and not take that many hours or be that hard.
Defeating the whole point of a dungeon crawl. Emphasis on the word CRAWL.
You can spend hours upon hours pvping and get good rewards that give more bonuses or you can do the PvE rout for their better gear. These people should still have that advantage over those players who do not. Skill is always important, but one of the whole points of RPGs is character development and that via work = reward in addition to skill = fair game.
I’ve seen some, but not much on this subject. Hopefully one of you beta testers could answer it. I believe I speak for most casual players when I say that we are the group of people who don’t want to “live” a game and have it totally encompass our lives, but just play to have fun. We don’t play 24/7, but fit our game time in after playing the much more interesting game called real life.
Anyway, is WAR the type of game where you don’t stand a chance unless you play until your eyes bleed for months on end in order to obtain the most uber leet gear so you can pwn the latest noobs? Or is it the type of game where someone who has a life can come into the game to have some fun PVP action and actually contribute to the battles going on?
If it’s the former, I won’t be a lasting subscriber. While I know there is a market for that type of game, it’s one I will not be playing. If it’s the later, they’ll have my money for many months to come.
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww".
The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre.
Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out.
WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more.
Dont like it? Play a different genre.
So your saying that the casual gamer should not be allowed the same thing as a so called "hardcore" gamer because he has a life that doesnt involve sitting in front of his computer 24/7. I am more of a semi-casual gamer at the moment, that dont mean i cant play as good or better than some hardcore geek who never leaves the house. Your belief is very flawed.....just wanted you to know that.
No, if you took a moment to read everything and actually allowed it to sink in you would notice that I have stated that a casual gamer is a mentality. Keep reading, I dont have a lot of time on my hands either, but have clearly stated that even someone with a lot of playing time can be a casual player and someone with only an hour a day to play can be a hard core gamer. Its based on expectations and mentality.
Everyone can achieve the same thing if they put the time into it. Some can get it done faster than others. Thats the point, some refuse to put in that work because they feel they shouldnt have to.
Keep reading and I suggest you read before speaking again lest you sound stupid for assuming ones belief when its clear you have not even read the thread muchless the posts.
The story of two business men. Business man 1 and 2 both have the same job. Business man 1 spends more time at work and makes more money than business man 2. Business man 2 spends as little time at is job as possible, just enough to get him through life. The rest of the time he spends going out and doing other tasks, which he deems as having a life. Business man 1 and 2 both have the same job. Business man 1 spends more time at work. He's always on time and does all the tasks that are asked from him. He's close to having a burn out because of all the hours he's making, and he's usually tired when he's at work. Business man 2 spends as little time at his job as possible. In his spare time, he spends a lot of time with his wife and kids, and has quite a few hobbies, including some team sports. During his leasure time he meets people from all walks of life and he makes quite a few friends. Some of which turn out to be great future business partners and some give him a complete different view on his own terrain of expertise, which makes him capable of thinking outside the box. When he is at work, he's rested and relaxed, has plenty of business contacts and he's been able to give his company new ideas about how to structure processes better or how to tap into new markets. He's making more money than business man 1.
At the next company event, the CEO announces that there will be a car race and that the winner will get a bonus. So all of the business men picked to participate line up on a cleared road. Business man 1 wins and business man 2 complains, "hey thats not fair you have an expensive sports car"!!! The business man 1 looks at the cheap minivan that Business man 2 is driving. Business man 1 states "well thats what you picked to race with". At the next company event, the CEO announces that there will be a car race and that the winner will get a bonus. So all of the business men picked to participate line up on a cleared road. Business man 2 wins and business man 1 complains, "hey thats not fair you have an expensive sports car"!!! The business man 1 looks at the cheap minivan that Business man 1 is driving. Business man 2 states "well thats what you picked to race with". Business man 2 gets mad and says "but i have a life, i dont want to have to work more hours to get enough income to buy a sports car"! The business man 1 replies "well why are you upset that you lost then? should I have driven slowly so you won?" Business man 2 stomps his feet "of course i should had a chance, you get all the nice cars, boats, suits, its not fair! I am not having fun because you have more than me". Business man 1 gets mad and says "but i make way more hours at work than you do, yet I get payed less and can't afford. That's not fair"! The business man 2 replies "You're constantly tired at work, and you're close to having a burn out. Wouldn't it be better to spend some more time to get healthy, relaxed and rested so you will do better? Do I need to make more hours and give up all the great contacts I have and the relaxed life style that gives me energy just because you are close to collapsing?" Business man 1 stomps his feet "of course i should had a chance, you get all the nice cars, boats, suits, its not fair! I am not having fun because you have more than me". Business man 1 looks at him and says "its what i worked for to get, i am responsible for my own time and rewards. I dont feel superior about it, but it does feel nice to get the nicer things in life when you work for them." Business man 2 looks at him and says "its what i worked for to get, i am responsible for my own time and rewards. I dont feel superior about it, but it does feel nice to get the nicer things in life when you work for them." Business man 1 replies "Then we should make it so that those who put in more hours will get more. Just because I have no life and I'm close to having a burn out! I deserve more!" Business man 1 returns "so you want communism?" then shakes his head and walks away. Business man 2 returns "so you want the feudal system from the Middle Ages back?" then shakes his head and walks away.
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
I don't hear casuals complaining about having Real Life things, things such as children, husbands / wives, a steady job, friends. These are all good things, things which people don't often complain about. They are things we willingly sacrifice our time for.
Casual players in my past experience want the 'chance' to get the same 'standard' of gear that others do. Yes it may not be 100% true to real life, but it is a GAME and such has the luxury of bending the rules a little to make it a 'fair' environment.
Real life examples do not translate well to games, a place where the very rules of reality we come to rely upon can be bent. All it comes down to is equality. That a casual player and a hardcore player both have similar options. Where we are equal in our efforts and rewards.
Time available does not give you some divine right to have more than another, we all pay the same fee for the game, and so are rightfully awarded the same rights as our neighbouring players. I feel WAR has met this requirement very well and very much look forwards to a game where i may compete as an equal, not as a 2nd class player.
What I said is very right on actually. The point being, if business man 2 spends the same amount of time over a longer duration, he to can have the nice sports car, but he doesnt want to wait or spend the time over all, and thus is bitter at business man 1, who could also have a family but manages his time better. In regards to WAR, it will be very casual gamer friendly but at the same time as a rpg, it has to set itself apart from the everyone stands an equal chance Unreal Tournament pvp. Its still an rpg. Which goes to saying the RPG is not a casual gamer friendly genre, and should not be changed to fit their "its not fair" mentality. Its funny but PvE players love to categorize all PvP players as immature trash talking children, and in turn they are generalized as carebears with insecurity issues, just as casual gamers are generalizing hard core gamers as being kids with out a life. They are all wrong and bitter. The nice thing about WAR is that they learned from WoW's mistake, which WoW also learned from. That being 40 man raids is not good because it only rewards large guilds which can spend 7 hours preparing and drudging through the raid. The whole idea of a very difficult raid dungeon is good, but getting that many people together is not. Thus, WAR limits the Raid dungeons to 6 players each, each wing of a dungeon taking anywhere from 2-4 hours with nice rewards for taking down a difficult boss. Casual players might complain about this, but, the fact that it is 6 players and not 40 means its still viable. If you plan a fishing trip in RL, and set aside a day to go out and catch some big fish, then the reward = food and a day spend having fun. Its no different. Casual players can achieve it too if they plan a raid dungeon day like they would a fishing trip. Yet many will complain that they have lives and cannot do a dungeon or that it should be easy and not take that many hours or be that hard. Defeating the whole point of a dungeon crawl. Emphasis on the word CRAWL. You can spend hours upon hours pvping and get good rewards that give more bonuses or you can do the PvE rout for their better gear. These people should still have that advantage over those players who do not. Skill is always important, but one of the whole points of RPGs is character development and that via work = reward in addition to skill = fair game.
Rabenwolf,
I think your arguement is flawed. Where in the definition of RPG game does it specifically state that time=reward? The definition should be chance = reward. The reason this is even an issue is due to some of the later games making it so. Old D&D games never gave you the 'Sword of 1000 Truths'...you got a 'Broad Sword +3'.
Secondly in your argument, you accept that hardcore players should have the advantage, outright, but not if they are in a big guild. Why stop there? If hardcore gamers can, why cant hardcore guilds? This to me screams personal opinion, not fact.
You are correct, however. The whole point of RPGs is exactly character development. Nothing more, nothing less.
-------------------------- Electric football is 'old school' gaming.
I think your arguement is flawed. Where in the definition of RPG game does it specifically state that time=reward? The definition should be chance = reward. The reason this is even an issue is due to some of the later games making it so. Old D&D games never gave you the 'Sword of 1000 Truths'...you got a 'Broad Sword +3'.
Secondly in your argument, you accept that hardcore players should have the advantage, outright, but not if they are in a big guild. Why stop there? If hardcore gamers can, why cant hardcore guilds? This to me screams personal opinion, not fact.
You are correct, however. The whole point of RPGs is exactly character development. Nothing more, nothing less.
While i agree that random chance and luck are one of the most exciting features that can be found in an RPG, you have to remember.
More Time = Higher Chance. Thus, it is all about time. While this is in no means pointing towards the idea of grind, but what it does mean that time spend should not be trivialized by the inability to work for something even if it takes you longer.
D&D is a great example btw. A dungeon crawl can take days to accomplish. You dont see a new guy joining you saying "hey wait a minute, hes stronger than I am and his sword +3 is too big of an advantage over my normal sword". The GM would say "he spent the time doing that 1 campaign last week and you didnt, he got a lucky chance from that and got the +3 sword, its fair"
In D&D items made all the difference when they enhance your rolls. In this sense, i think everyone should have a chance at the same accomplishments and item, but not everyone should have them, because then they lose their value and purpose. If something is rare, then it should be rare, and not seen on every other person...a problem WoW had.
WAR is making it easier for people to form groups for these accomplishments by keeping them in PQ and 6 man dungeon form, BUT while its easier to start, it doesnt mean it will be easy to finish.
So no my logic isnt flawed, i just think that some dont really get it or are too busy being offended/closed minded to get it. RPGs are the most complex form of genre, and there are a lot of challenges involved, features, that require a type of rule set in which allow for a certain form of freedom but also restrict as well.
I am educated in game design, and i promise you there is much more that goes into rpgs than any other genre, and much of it rewards time and luck to a player for use of character development. No one should ever be the same in an rpg in my opinion. 1 player should be much stronger than another but that doesnt mean it will always be that way, depending on how the character progresses.
Of course WAR is a little different, since the players are not meant to be heroes or war leaders, but like the WARHAMMER table top, individual units that are limited by their class and the lore.
It's so casual that the hardcores may actually be penalised.
This means if you level too fast, there won't be enough people to queue for scenarios, take keeps/objectives and fight in RvR contested zones. Thus your renown points will suffer compared to someone who casually levels up with the herd.
The casual vs hardcore debate has been going on forever. I think the best middle ground is using the law of diminishing returns. The hardcores get superior gear/abilities but not unbalancing stuff and progressively more slowly. Sorta like making an increasingly steeper slope.
A totally unrewarding system for hardcores won't work. It's like communism everyone wants a reward sometime and if they don't they don't play.
In any MMO there must be progression and balance but it's hard to cater to both. If there is no progression whatsoever, then why is it not an FPS. The other option is to objective server-wide progression which WAR does with RvR, Living cities etc. (IMHO they have underdone some of the stuff like renown rewards to make it marginally useless)
WAR stops the ganking with higher level players being turned into chickens. This is good for casuals who want to level up slowly as well. No more cowardly WOWesqe STV grief ganking to +++ ur 3-p33n.
Leveling in WAR is very easy, however, getting renown ranks is not. The game is designed so that people can get to the end game as soon as possible to begin enjoying sieges. Renown starts of easy to come by but as time goes on it takes progressively longer to get.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
Originally posted by Rabenwolf I am educated in game design, and i promise you there is much more that goes into rpgs than any other genre, and much of it rewards time and luck to a player for use of character development. No one should ever be the same in an rpg in my opinion. 1 player should be much stronger than another but that doesnt mean it will always be that way, depending on how the character progresses.
Games have limited rule sets in which a person can play. As far as I can see the process is (simplistically put) as follows: you define the premise of what a game should look like or how a game behaves and you set boundaries. Then you make rule sets and put them into code. Here's the thing that happens in almost any MMO (as opposed to other game genres): the premise is 'if a player spends more hours he is entitled to get better and more rewards'. Why can't it be: 'if a player plays better (and 'better' doesn't always equal 'more hours') he is entitled to get better and more rewards'? Why can other game genres manage this, but not the MMO genre?
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
I'm 39 with kids and am a casual player. I accept that in every MMO I play there will be content that is not meant for me and I will not be able to attain because I cannot or will not devote the time and effort necissary to obtain it. In MMOs, time and effort are very key factors. The casuals in this thread (and in general in my experience) seem to consider themselves above the dedicated player and constantly make snide, demeaning and dismissive remarks about the hardcore players. Either they're losers or children. When they take offense the casual player that was just casting insults acts indignent about the tone of the responses.
In my view as a casual player, time is definitely a factor and one I devote to other things. I don't make assumptions about the people that are able to devote more time to a game because I don't know their circumstances and it's none of my business. The ones that annoy me are my peers that act like they're above others and deserve the same rewards as the hardcore players even if those rewards are for time and effort spent. Get over yourselves and realize that if you were as objective and superior as you claim to be, you'd see it's just a game and it doesn't really matter. Being an ass to others does however.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I think it's pure simple mindedness to think that time should equall better reward. how old is cristiano ronaldo? the footballer that plays for portugal and Man utd. now how old is Allan stubbs that plays for whoever he plays for now?
Ronaldo has been playing for what?...around 10 years.
Stubbs has been playing for what?......around 30 years.
Who is better and richer? yes you guessed it Ronaldo.
Simple fact is real life rules dont work in games. i have been an avid RPG gamer all my life ( 36 now ) and i still class myself as casual, thats why i RP! if i play good enough to earn sworld of hardcore player killing then i should get it simple as, whether i spent 2 years of 5 mins trying.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf I am educated in game design, and i promise you there is much more that goes into rpgs than any other genre, and much of it rewards time and luck to a player for use of character development. No one should ever be the same in an rpg in my opinion. 1 player should be much stronger than another but that doesnt mean it will always be that way, depending on how the character progresses.
Games have limited rule sets in which a person can play. As far as I can see the process is (simplistically put) as follows: you define the premise of what a game should look like or how a game behaves and you set boundaries. Then you make rule sets and put them into code. Here's the thing that happens in almost any MMO (as opposed to other game genres): the premise is 'if a player spends more hours he is entitled to get better and more rewards'. Why can't it be: 'if a player plays better (and 'better' doesn't always equal 'more hours') he is entitled to get better and more rewards'? Why can other game genres manage this, but not the MMO genre?
This is difficult because, MMO's do in a sense reward for this. Some. WoW for example, believe it or not, will reward Arena pvp players for their skill and not time spent. The problem though is that the time spent outside of the arena effects the items a player has IN the arena.
The advent of the rpgs started with turn based combat, relying more on INT as a skill rather than actual player skill. In addition to luck of the roll. IN fps in a sense, you play as the character, their movement is your movement. In a turn based fashion, you are merely giving the character you play commands and you are not involved in direct control persay.... MMORPGs have since then merged the two, so both skill is involved but INT commands are needed as well.
Basically what I am trying to say, is you have to know where to separate player skill from the character skill. Remember you are ROLE PLAYING A CHARACTER. His stats are not you as a human puppet masters stats. So the two need to have clear lines separating the two.
Its really the people who sit down and play 12 hours at a time that destroys the genre for everyone else. Every time some new game is released, along comes Joe McNolife who can't control his gaming habits, reaches level cap in a week, and causes the devs to reevaluate where they set the bar. Not long after this same type of person is destroying the end game, then is bored and claiming the game sucks.
Games become diluted over time with long mindless tasks to keep the marathon gamers at bay. I don't see how anyone could not agree to this fact. They could easily remedy this with diminishing returns at a certain point during a 24 hour period. I would think that anyone who would throws 'instant gratification' around could handle something like this because skill should be what entitles you to the best of everything, not time. Structure a game to have multiple goals instead of tunnel vision such as gear level, and it would be far better for gamers across the board.
I've been in more than one causal raiding guild.. people would log on to raid and pretty much log out afterward. The hard part was not raiding; it was that getting anything done outside of the raid was such a time investment that didn't require very much skill, or even getting people to the point where they could contribute to the raid.
Its easy to accomplish something in WAR if you have atleast 30 mins per day you'll accomplish something and even contribute to the realm. You also have access to all the content regardless if your hardcore or not .. they've made sure there game has no content that is exclusive (as in Raids) and they made grouping so easy a 2 year old could do it.
People who play more will move along faster but they wont have any specific Content advantage. The type of people who raid grind for example wont own the world because they can be online for 2 to 3 hours to do the high end raids. There are no raids and the high end dungeons only need 6 man groups to complete the end.
WAR is designed so everyone has something to do, everyone contributes, and gear is damn easy as pie to get. Granted Renown Ranks require more work but you can certaintly accomplish plenty in a single 30 min session.
I'd comment on the rest of the debate but I find Raben to be a complete elitist jerk type from his generlization of casual gamers. When I mmo game I play maybe 20 hours a week and I consider myself casual simply because I do what I want at the pace I want and as long as I have access to something even if I don't do it..Im happy....all I ask is for the same chances & access to content as everyone else even if it takes me Longer than those that Play More. I refuse to pay for a game to be told "unless your in a guild and that guild wants to take you You can't do this activity"
Its why WoW pissed me off I knew that unless I dedicated myself to a guild and play time restrictions I'd never accomplish the end game. WAR how ever is my dream come true in that sense it doesnt' make it where I have to dedicate myself to anything I don't want too but I'll still have access to everything.
I'm 39 with kids and am a casual player. I accept that in every MMO I play there will be content that is not meant for me and I will not be able to attain because I cannot or will not devote the time and effort necissary to obtain it. In MMOs, time and effort are very key factors. The casuals in this thread (and in general in my experience) seem to consider themselves above the dedicated player and constantly make snide, demeaning and dismissive remarks about the hardcore players. Either they're losers or children. When they take offense the casual player that was just casting insults acts indignent about the tone of the responses. In my view as a casual player, time is definitely a factor and one I devote to other things. I don't make assumptions about the people that are able to devote more time to a game because I don't know their circumstances and it's none of my business. The ones that annoy me are my peers that act like they're above others and deserve the same rewards as the hardcore players even if those rewards are for time and effort spent. Get over yourselves and realize that if you were as objective and superior as you claim to be, you'd see it's just a game and it doesn't really matter. Being an ass to others does however.
I have to ask but where do you find us thinking were above others? and where have i been rude? and sorry friend but no need to call me names, i am not an "ass" so please keep it clean.
The point us casuals have been trying to make is that we simply dont expect to recieve the same rewards as players with more time invested, we just want the opurtunity to try for them. and why can't we have multiple wys of recieving rewards? i dont complain that harcore players have anything, so why is it ok for them to complain if i recieve it?
Rabenwolf---- just read your very first post on this subject, I have to say, that if the Warhammer community has your type of attitude or mentality, then we are in big trouble man.....enough said.
this isnt wow, there is no hardcore vs casual debate.
everyone will finish the game with the exact same gear and all their stats caped at the same numbers.
there will be no quaterly patches to release higher level content and gear for those who advance faster.... the separation will be between skilled and unskilled not plays alot and plays little.
if you advance faster.... go kill someone and have fun....
if you advance slower.... kill someone and have fun
Comments
apples and oranges
you cannot generalize this subject to everyday life. put yourself in the developer's shoes: its a game, its supposed to be fun (for everybody), its designed to generate craploads of cash.
with only 10-20% of subscriber base playing as hardcore, would I want to make the game less fullfilling for the majority of my monthly subscriber base? a smart company would not bite the hand that feeds them. besides, as a hardcore gamer, how is your experience lessened by having casuals that can actually stand up to you in a fight?
on the flip side, if me, as a casual consistantly gets rolled by a nerd in epic gear and i have no chance, then whats the point of continuing to play? this is why i gave up WoW.
...and as a side note, I consider myself a hardcore casual. i have probably spent more time than most hardcores in WoW, and I still got rolled. why? because I'm one of those players that didnt do big raids. But I did level all the different classes to 70, and some classes twice. And I couldnt compete in PvP....is that fair by your judgement?
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Electric football is 'old school' gaming.
You need to take your example and use it in your "real life". The example is completely valid, but to suggest that all MMORPGs should be time = reward when they are first and foremost a GAME is completely dumb. I do understand the desire for being rewarded for the work you put in, don't get me wrong. But to suggest that casuals shouldn't have a fighting chance just because they can't play as much is stupid.
What if Businessman 2 had a wife and a mother both sick with cancer? What if he had to spend time and money taking care of them, so he couldn't afford the nicer car? This is what happens with most casuals - they have OTHER OBLIGATIONS that come before playing a GAME. Sure, when they have freetime they could choose to do something else, but if they do enjoy MMOs then they'll choose MMOs.
WAR has already said it's more of a game than a world. It wants to be fun for everyone, not realistic - because as you just pointed out, in the real world, the more work you put in the better reward you'll get.
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww".
The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre.
Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out.
WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more.
Dont like it? Play a different genre.
So your saying that the casual gamer should not be allowed the same thing as a so called "hardcore" gamer because he has a life that doesnt involve sitting in front of his computer 24/7. I am more of a semi-casual gamer at the moment, that dont mean i cant play as good or better than some hardcore geek who never leaves the house. Your belief is very flawed.....just wanted you to know that.
Agree, and another point
Time does not = hard work
casuals can work harder than some who put 10 times as much time into a game and at the same time, some players that put in 100 times more time can put in more work than a casual player. i would bet that my EQ Ranger could take 90% of Rangers no matter how they were equipped and i proved many a times over.
I also class myself as a casual player in MMO's and have taken quite some offence at the assumption casual players want things instantly. Now I can of course not speak for every person, but my view of what a casual player is as follows.
We have less time than hardcore players, this does not mean we want more for less effort because of our time restrictions, it simply means we have less time to play so want to have the 'chance' at a satisfying game session for the time we have available.
We work just as hard as other players, we just don't do it in long runs of time, we do it over days / weeks / even possibly months. Most casual players I know accept this fact. If a quest asks us to kill 100 of 'mob x' a hardcore player may just go & do it right off the bat, no breaks, no stops just killing. A casual player will still kill those 100 mobs but maybe in 2 or even 3 game sessions.
Now I have made what I feel is my point can I ask, why should there be a difference in reward for the 2 ways these players kill their 100 mobs. They both killed them, they both earned the reward, but are different player styles. Should there truly be a difference is the rewards because they both achieved the same thing in different ways?
In fact, the LESS time you have to do something, the MORE you want to accomplish in that time, thus making you BETTER at it.
Just wanted to point that out too.
For example, many times you have this situation:
Casual: Damn I only have an hour and a half, I want to get these Duskwood quests done fast, at least 5 before I have to log.
Hardcore: Damn I'm bored, what am I going to do? Well, I have some Duskwood quests to finish up but, hey, I have all day...what should I do...I think I'm going to go get a soda.
What I said is very right on actually.
The point being, if business man 2 spends the same amount of time over a longer duration, he to can have the nice sports car, but he doesnt want to wait or spend the time over all, and thus is bitter at business man 1, who could also have a family but manages his time better.
In regards to WAR, it will be very casual gamer friendly but at the same time as a rpg, it has to set itself apart from the everyone stands an equal chance Unreal Tournament pvp. Its still an rpg.
Which goes to saying the RPG is not a casual gamer friendly genre, and should not be changed to fit their "its not fair" mentality. Its funny but PvE players love to categorize all PvP players as immature trash talking children, and in turn they are generalized as carebears with insecurity issues, just as casual gamers are generalizing hard core gamers as being kids with out a life. They are all wrong and bitter.
The nice thing about WAR is that they learned from WoW's mistake, which WoW also learned from. That being 40 man raids is not good because it only rewards large guilds which can spend 7 hours preparing and drudging through the raid.
The whole idea of a very difficult raid dungeon is good, but getting that many people together is not. Thus, WAR limits the Raid dungeons to 6 players each, each wing of a dungeon taking anywhere from 2-4 hours with nice rewards for taking down a difficult boss.
Casual players might complain about this, but, the fact that it is 6 players and not 40 means its still viable. If you plan a fishing trip in RL, and set aside a day to go out and catch some big fish, then the reward = food and a day spend having fun. Its no different. Casual players can achieve it too if they plan a raid dungeon day like they would a fishing trip. Yet many will complain that they have lives and cannot do a dungeon or that it should be easy and not take that many hours or be that hard.
Defeating the whole point of a dungeon crawl. Emphasis on the word CRAWL.
You can spend hours upon hours pvping and get good rewards that give more bonuses or you can do the PvE rout for their better gear. These people should still have that advantage over those players who do not. Skill is always important, but one of the whole points of RPGs is character development and that via work = reward in addition to skill = fair game.
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww".
The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre.
Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out.
WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more.
Dont like it? Play a different genre.
So your saying that the casual gamer should not be allowed the same thing as a so called "hardcore" gamer because he has a life that doesnt involve sitting in front of his computer 24/7. I am more of a semi-casual gamer at the moment, that dont mean i cant play as good or better than some hardcore geek who never leaves the house. Your belief is very flawed.....just wanted you to know that.
No, if you took a moment to read everything and actually allowed it to sink in you would notice that I have stated that a casual gamer is a mentality. Keep reading, I dont have a lot of time on my hands either, but have clearly stated that even someone with a lot of playing time can be a casual player and someone with only an hour a day to play can be a hard core gamer. Its based on expectations and mentality.
Everyone can achieve the same thing if they put the time into it. Some can get it done faster than others. Thats the point, some refuse to put in that work because they feel they shouldnt have to.
Keep reading and I suggest you read before speaking again lest you sound stupid for assuming ones belief when its clear you have not even read the thread muchless the posts.
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny
Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
I don't hear casuals complaining about having Real Life things, things such as children, husbands / wives, a steady job, friends. These are all good things, things which people don't often complain about. They are things we willingly sacrifice our time for.
Casual players in my past experience want the 'chance' to get the same 'standard' of gear that others do. Yes it may not be 100% true to real life, but it is a GAME and such has the luxury of bending the rules a little to make it a 'fair' environment.
Real life examples do not translate well to games, a place where the very rules of reality we come to rely upon can be bent. All it comes down to is equality. That a casual player and a hardcore player both have similar options. Where we are equal in our efforts and rewards.
Time available does not give you some divine right to have more than another, we all pay the same fee for the game, and so are rightfully awarded the same rights as our neighbouring players. I feel WAR has met this requirement very well and very much look forwards to a game where i may compete as an equal, not as a 2nd class player.
Rabenwolf,
I think your arguement is flawed. Where in the definition of RPG game does it specifically state that time=reward? The definition should be chance = reward. The reason this is even an issue is due to some of the later games making it so. Old D&D games never gave you the 'Sword of 1000 Truths'...you got a 'Broad Sword +3'.
Secondly in your argument, you accept that hardcore players should have the advantage, outright, but not if they are in a big guild. Why stop there? If hardcore gamers can, why cant hardcore guilds? This to me screams personal opinion, not fact.
You are correct, however. The whole point of RPGs is exactly character development. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Electric football is 'old school' gaming.
Rabenwolf,
I think your arguement is flawed. Where in the definition of RPG game does it specifically state that time=reward? The definition should be chance = reward. The reason this is even an issue is due to some of the later games making it so. Old D&D games never gave you the 'Sword of 1000 Truths'...you got a 'Broad Sword +3'.
Secondly in your argument, you accept that hardcore players should have the advantage, outright, but not if they are in a big guild. Why stop there? If hardcore gamers can, why cant hardcore guilds? This to me screams personal opinion, not fact.
You are correct, however. The whole point of RPGs is exactly character development. Nothing more, nothing less.
While i agree that random chance and luck are one of the most exciting features that can be found in an RPG, you have to remember.
More Time = Higher Chance. Thus, it is all about time. While this is in no means pointing towards the idea of grind, but what it does mean that time spend should not be trivialized by the inability to work for something even if it takes you longer.
D&D is a great example btw. A dungeon crawl can take days to accomplish. You dont see a new guy joining you saying "hey wait a minute, hes stronger than I am and his sword +3 is too big of an advantage over my normal sword". The GM would say "he spent the time doing that 1 campaign last week and you didnt, he got a lucky chance from that and got the +3 sword, its fair"
In D&D items made all the difference when they enhance your rolls. In this sense, i think everyone should have a chance at the same accomplishments and item, but not everyone should have them, because then they lose their value and purpose. If something is rare, then it should be rare, and not seen on every other person...a problem WoW had.
WAR is making it easier for people to form groups for these accomplishments by keeping them in PQ and 6 man dungeon form, BUT while its easier to start, it doesnt mean it will be easy to finish.
So no my logic isnt flawed, i just think that some dont really get it or are too busy being offended/closed minded to get it. RPGs are the most complex form of genre, and there are a lot of challenges involved, features, that require a type of rule set in which allow for a certain form of freedom but also restrict as well.
I am educated in game design, and i promise you there is much more that goes into rpgs than any other genre, and much of it rewards time and luck to a player for use of character development. No one should ever be the same in an rpg in my opinion. 1 player should be much stronger than another but that doesnt mean it will always be that way, depending on how the character progresses.
Of course WAR is a little different, since the players are not meant to be heroes or war leaders, but like the WARHAMMER table top, individual units that are limited by their class and the lore.
This game is the most casual mmo I've played.
It's so casual that the hardcores may actually be penalised.
This means if you level too fast, there won't be enough people to queue for scenarios, take keeps/objectives and fight in RvR contested zones. Thus your renown points will suffer compared to someone who casually levels up with the herd.
The casual vs hardcore debate has been going on forever. I think the best middle ground is using the law of diminishing returns. The hardcores get superior gear/abilities but not unbalancing stuff and progressively more slowly. Sorta like making an increasingly steeper slope.
A totally unrewarding system for hardcores won't work. It's like communism everyone wants a reward sometime and if they don't they don't play.
In any MMO there must be progression and balance but it's hard to cater to both. If there is no progression whatsoever, then why is it not an FPS. The other option is to objective server-wide progression which WAR does with RvR, Living cities etc. (IMHO they have underdone some of the stuff like renown rewards to make it marginally useless)
WAR stops the ganking with higher level players being turned into chickens. This is good for casuals who want to level up slowly as well. No more cowardly WOWesqe STV grief ganking to +++ ur 3-p33n.
Leveling in WAR is very easy, however, getting renown ranks is not. The game is designed so that people can get to the end game as soon as possible to begin enjoying sieges. Renown starts of easy to come by but as time goes on it takes progressively longer to get.
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You wouldn't understand
Games have limited rule sets in which a person can play. As far as I can see the process is (simplistically put) as follows: you define the premise of what a game should look like or how a game behaves and you set boundaries. Then you make rule sets and put them into code. Here's the thing that happens in almost any MMO (as opposed to other game genres): the premise is 'if a player spends more hours he is entitled to get better and more rewards'. Why can't it be: 'if a player plays better (and 'better' doesn't always equal 'more hours') he is entitled to get better and more rewards'? Why can other game genres manage this, but not the MMO genre?
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny
Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
I'm 39 with kids and am a casual player. I accept that in every MMO I play there will be content that is not meant for me and I will not be able to attain because I cannot or will not devote the time and effort necissary to obtain it. In MMOs, time and effort are very key factors. The casuals in this thread (and in general in my experience) seem to consider themselves above the dedicated player and constantly make snide, demeaning and dismissive remarks about the hardcore players. Either they're losers or children. When they take offense the casual player that was just casting insults acts indignent about the tone of the responses.
In my view as a casual player, time is definitely a factor and one I devote to other things. I don't make assumptions about the people that are able to devote more time to a game because I don't know their circumstances and it's none of my business. The ones that annoy me are my peers that act like they're above others and deserve the same rewards as the hardcore players even if those rewards are for time and effort spent. Get over yourselves and realize that if you were as objective and superior as you claim to be, you'd see it's just a game and it doesn't really matter. Being an ass to others does however.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I think it's pure simple mindedness to think that time should equall better reward. how old is cristiano ronaldo? the footballer that plays for portugal and Man utd. now how old is Allan stubbs that plays for whoever he plays for now?
Ronaldo has been playing for what?...around 10 years.
Stubbs has been playing for what?......around 30 years.
Who is better and richer? yes you guessed it Ronaldo.
Simple fact is real life rules dont work in games. i have been an avid RPG gamer all my life ( 36 now ) and i still class myself as casual, thats why i RP! if i play good enough to earn sworld of hardcore player killing then i should get it simple as, whether i spent 2 years of 5 mins trying.
Games have limited rule sets in which a person can play. As far as I can see the process is (simplistically put) as follows: you define the premise of what a game should look like or how a game behaves and you set boundaries. Then you make rule sets and put them into code. Here's the thing that happens in almost any MMO (as opposed to other game genres): the premise is 'if a player spends more hours he is entitled to get better and more rewards'. Why can't it be: 'if a player plays better (and 'better' doesn't always equal 'more hours') he is entitled to get better and more rewards'? Why can other game genres manage this, but not the MMO genre?
This is difficult because, MMO's do in a sense reward for this. Some. WoW for example, believe it or not, will reward Arena pvp players for their skill and not time spent. The problem though is that the time spent outside of the arena effects the items a player has IN the arena.
The advent of the rpgs started with turn based combat, relying more on INT as a skill rather than actual player skill. In addition to luck of the roll. IN fps in a sense, you play as the character, their movement is your movement. In a turn based fashion, you are merely giving the character you play commands and you are not involved in direct control persay.... MMORPGs have since then merged the two, so both skill is involved but INT commands are needed as well.
Basically what I am trying to say, is you have to know where to separate player skill from the character skill. Remember you are ROLE PLAYING A CHARACTER. His stats are not you as a human puppet masters stats. So the two need to have clear lines separating the two.
Its really the people who sit down and play 12 hours at a time that destroys the genre for everyone else. Every time some new game is released, along comes Joe McNolife who can't control his gaming habits, reaches level cap in a week, and causes the devs to reevaluate where they set the bar. Not long after this same type of person is destroying the end game, then is bored and claiming the game sucks.
Games become diluted over time with long mindless tasks to keep the marathon gamers at bay. I don't see how anyone could not agree to this fact. They could easily remedy this with diminishing returns at a certain point during a 24 hour period. I would think that anyone who would throws 'instant gratification' around could handle something like this because skill should be what entitles you to the best of everything, not time. Structure a game to have multiple goals instead of tunnel vision such as gear level, and it would be far better for gamers across the board.
I've been in more than one causal raiding guild.. people would log on to raid and pretty much log out afterward. The hard part was not raiding; it was that getting anything done outside of the raid was such a time investment that didn't require very much skill, or even getting people to the point where they could contribute to the raid.
Its easy to accomplish something in WAR if you have atleast 30 mins per day you'll accomplish something and even contribute to the realm. You also have access to all the content regardless if your hardcore or not .. they've made sure there game has no content that is exclusive (as in Raids) and they made grouping so easy a 2 year old could do it.
People who play more will move along faster but they wont have any specific Content advantage. The type of people who raid grind for example wont own the world because they can be online for 2 to 3 hours to do the high end raids. There are no raids and the high end dungeons only need 6 man groups to complete the end.
WAR is designed so everyone has something to do, everyone contributes, and gear is damn easy as pie to get. Granted Renown Ranks require more work but you can certaintly accomplish plenty in a single 30 min session.
I'd comment on the rest of the debate but I find Raben to be a complete elitist jerk type from his generlization of casual gamers. When I mmo game I play maybe 20 hours a week and I consider myself casual simply because I do what I want at the pace I want and as long as I have access to something even if I don't do it..Im happy....all I ask is for the same chances & access to content as everyone else even if it takes me Longer than those that Play More. I refuse to pay for a game to be told "unless your in a guild and that guild wants to take you You can't do this activity"
Its why WoW pissed me off I knew that unless I dedicated myself to a guild and play time restrictions I'd never accomplish the end game. WAR how ever is my dream come true in that sense it doesnt' make it where I have to dedicate myself to anything I don't want too but I'll still have access to everything.
I have to ask but where do you find us thinking were above others? and where have i been rude? and sorry friend but no need to call me names, i am not an "ass" so please keep it clean.
The point us casuals have been trying to make is that we simply dont expect to recieve the same rewards as players with more time invested, we just want the opurtunity to try for them. and why can't we have multiple wys of recieving rewards? i dont complain that harcore players have anything, so why is it ok for them to complain if i recieve it?
actually casuals can do better than people who play alot.
I am playing on the same server with Garrett Fuller of tentonhammer.com but we dont have the same playtimes.
I play early mornings and usually wind up playing 8 hours before I go to sleep then to work in the evening.
Garrett plays at night after work but dosent play everyday.
he is 2 levels behind me but has three times as many pvp points as I do and WAY better gear because of this.
We spoke about it, he uses his play time to quest hard or pvp hard. The pvp is really heavy around primetime... which is a time I am at work.
so even with him playing less hours per week than I do he is alot further along. is that good enough news for casual players?
Rabenwolf---- just read your very first post on this subject, I have to say, that if the Warhammer community has your type of attitude or mentality, then we are in big trouble man.....enough said.
this isnt wow, there is no hardcore vs casual debate.
everyone will finish the game with the exact same gear and all their stats caped at the same numbers.
there will be no quaterly patches to release higher level content and gear for those who advance faster.... the separation will be between skilled and unskilled not plays alot and plays little.
if you advance faster.... go kill someone and have fun....
if you advance slower.... kill someone and have fun
You can sit down and have a 30 minute session or a 3 hour session and in both cases still feel that you've progressed and acheived something.