I read a comment that someone wrote about Warhammer's questing system and instancing. It read something like:
" in other games like WOW, the average (casual) gamer only got to see 20% of the end game content, while in warhammer pretty much all the content is available at end game"
Sort of follows the line of DAOC where in the end its all pvp based. Although DAOC had alot of PVE in the mix with Artefacts etc which would be a little tough for the casual gamer to acheive and Master Levels. They later changed that to help casual play and more pvp centric gaming.
This seems to have carried through to Warhammer, which is just great IMO.
More time playing with real mates instead of faking being mates with 100+ people so you can just get gear!
Wow I think that 2 pages of this thread could have been saved if this was posted a little sooner.
Rabenwolf's defintion of a casual gamer is different than ... well.. everyone else.
Casual gamer - Rabenwolf: A mental state of someone who feels like they should get handed everything on a silver platter. They want everything a game has to offer, but they don't want to play to get it. This could be someone who plays 1 hour a day, or someone who plays 12 hours a day. It's a mental state, not a playstyle.
Casual gamer - everyone else: A playstyle. This type of player spends more time doing other things in their life than playing a game. They still might play a lot, but they do other things more.
There... hopefully this clears up any confusion.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It becomes us vs them when one type is ruining things for the other type. Casual people can't see all content in games like WoW because hardcore people complained. Hardcore people don't feel they are getting "better" enough stuff to warrant a reason to keep playing. At the end of the day you don't need hardcore people. You don't need people to blaze through the game and write guides, in fact those ruin a lot of the fun of exploring and learning from the game. The hardcore people NEED the game for some reason or another (whether it be to avoid their life, family, job, etc.); casual people just want to have fun. There would still be like 9 million people if there were only casual players in WoW.
About casuals, I'd like them to consider if they really need an MMO to spend such a few time of their lives and bother the rest of the community that are devoted to the game and spend hours upon hours.
But of course.. there are so many now that companies are forced to adapt the MMO to them.
You can create 1 characer in 1 minute. Has son you enter the map, click "Enter battleground". You first quest, or 2 th quest will ding you to level 2. Then the battleground will start. As level 2, you will still be able to kill people and have fun, because the game will autolevel you to 8 for the battleground. This mean, in something like 3 minutes, you will be kicking ass of other players. Theres no other MMO where in 3 minutes you can be doing quest AND pvp AND exploring, etc.. WAR excels at casuals, IMHO. Anyway... IANC YMMV.
I am glad I did not preorder. Games are becoming nothing but instant gratification adventure games anymore. I guess the older folks like me will have to look for niche and older games to have our fun in the future. I know a lot will love this type and that is fine. I hope there are always small game companies out there that will continue to make games that put immersion, depth first. I prefer a nonlinear game that requires a lot of grouping to get things accomplished. Longer leveling to the top and some meaningful travel time.
I want my game to feel like an online virtual world not a online game. It seems the popular ones are going to online games instead of worlds. I find this above very unimmersiive for an rpg, I guess it is find for an adventure game. I also found other features lacking such as it is mostly solo leveling, progression goes very quickly.
I think every MMORPG should have a free trial before you buy. Most single games do this and it should definitely be the practice of MMORPGs. People should be able to see what they are getting for something they intend on playing for longterm (1-4 years). I hope this is a great title for the people who enjoy these types of games but it isn't my cup of tea by no means.
Originally posted by qombi I want my game to feel like an online virtual world not a online game. It seems the popular ones are going to online games instead of worlds.
This is a sad... very sad fact. I'm in the same boat as you. I had high hopes for STO. That would have been the perfect IP to make a virtual world... not just another copy of a copy level based game. But, unfortunately Cryptic is making a game, not a world.
There's really nothing on the horizion that looks promising, and that is a little depressing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
this is a bit of an exageration. this game is made for all types of players: casual and hardcore. qombi was trying to let the op know that it doesnt take long from the start of the game to contribute and feel like you've achieved something.
It becomes us vs them when one type is ruining things for the other type. Casual people can't see all content in games like WoW because hardcore people complained. Hardcore people don't feel they are getting "better" enough stuff to warrant a reason to keep playing. At the end of the day you don't need hardcore people. You don't need people to blaze through the game and write guides, in fact those ruin a lot of the fun of exploring and learning from the game. The hardcore people NEED the game for some reason or another (whether it be to avoid their life, family, job, etc.); casual people just want to have fun. There would still be like 9 million people if there were only casual players in WoW.
You really shouldn't stereotype people like that. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. First of all I don't believe the "casual/hardcore" classifications. All players are playing for different reasons, but I would go so far to bet the main reason is to enjoy the game they bought. Some may play more than others time wise and others may play less but it doesn't describe the person outside of the game. There may be a fella who plays all the time but mainly just chats and and doesn't really care about progression all so much. There may be a fella who play a lot less but all he does is raid when he is on waiting for that uber drop he has always wanted.
There are some who enjoy pvp and there are some that enjoy pve. There are also those who enjoy both. I myself love a game that is built for the "hardcore" as you put it but I do not play that much at all. I can't I have a family and a job that I like to do my best at. I just enjoy a game that provides me a fun grouping, challenging, and immersive environment. This game doesn't provide this for me. I don't care if I can't max out my character in a month. I want my online game I pay for to last for years, I enjoy the leveling process and dungeons. Neither way is right or wrong.
You can create 1 characer in 1 minute. Has son you enter the map, click "Enter battleground". You first quest, or 2 th quest will ding you to level 2. Then the battleground will start. As level 2, you will still be able to kill people and have fun, because the game will autolevel you to 8 for the battleground. This mean, in something like 3 minutes, you will be kicking ass of other players. Theres no other MMO where in 3 minutes you can be doing quest AND pvp AND exploring, etc.. WAR excels at casuals, IMHO. Anyway... IANC YMMV.
I am glad I did not preorder. Games are becoming nothing but instant gratification adventure games anymore. I guess the older folks like me will have to look for niche and older games to have our fun in the future. I know a lot will love this type and that is fine. I hope there are always small game companies out there that will continue to make games that put immersion, depth first. I prefer a nonlinear game that requires a lot of grouping to get things accomplished. Longer leveling to the top and some meaningful travel time.
I want my game to feel like an online virtual world not a online game. It seems the popular ones are going to online games instead of worlds. I find this above very unimmersiive for an rpg, I guess it is find for an adventure game. I also found other features lacking such as it is mostly solo leveling, progression goes very quickly.
I think every MMORPG should have a free trial before you buy. Most single games do this and it should definitely be the practice of MMORPGs. People should be able to see what they are getting for something they intend on playing for longterm (1-4 years). I hope this is a great title for the people who enjoy these types of games but it isn't my cup of tea by no means.
You're making the same mistake a lot of WAR's critics seem to make. If it's easy enough for casual players and focused on fun then it's not a serious MMO and not for the hardcore. One has nothing to do with the other. There will be plenty for the hardcore player to do. It's just not PvE. While there will be a lot of PvE in the endgame it's tied to RvR, meaning your realm (not you specifically) opens up more PvE and RvR content as the war against the enemy realm progresses.
Like DAoC, the endgame is all about the RvR (which includes both PvP and PvE components) and it's an endless struggle. It's not about instance grinds or epic gear. It's about your realm's effort at taking the other realms' lands, cities and content.
With all the MMOs that have come and gone and the amount of crap that has been released, I can't believe that any MMO fan would pass on this game because they think they know what it's all about. Try it for 3 or 4 months and see for yourself. RvR really shines with more people than what is currently in beta. Yes there will be zergs, but there's always important uses for elite groups of hardcore players for each side. Think of the hardcore VoIP guilds as special forces and the rest of us as various levels of regular infantry. The hardcore always had a place in DAoC. WAR will be no different. Allowing the casual player to compete and have fun does not have to be at the hardcore player's expense. (nor vice versa)
EDIT: As for a game world that feels alive, well nothing achieves that better than being able to take the other player's game world from them and run the risk of losing your own.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
LOL so many people are ready to make a comparison to WOW when the game is so far from it its not funny. This is all because the game has stylised artistic content and a UI that looks similar to WOW.
Every game ive played has a UI similar to WOW. Infact games like DAOC had interfaces like WOW before WOW was WOW.
To be able to start playing a game and jump into the action form get go is a HUGE plus for Warhammer. Anyone saying otherwise is just .... im not sure what to say. From the start, you feel a part of the world. Its action from get go!
Saying that it's all just instant gratification and not immersive because they get the ball rolling soon is stupid. Like the previous poster said, its WAAAAAAGH! Each starting area is being attacked by NPCs of the other side, its all out WAR from level 1. There is no, well wait until level 25, and 6 months later THEN we'll use you for the war effort. That's not immersive at all, THAT is a game, with false limitations.
The fact that from the second you roll your character, you are a warm body and can contribute to your sides struggle, THAT is immersion. There is plenty more to push for and accomplish after level 1, I assure you
It becomes us vs them when one type is ruining things for the other type. Casual people can't see all content in games like WoW because hardcore people complained. Hardcore people don't feel they are getting "better" enough stuff to warrant a reason to keep playing. At the end of the day you don't need hardcore people. You don't need people to blaze through the game and write guides, in fact those ruin a lot of the fun of exploring and learning from the game. The hardcore people NEED the game for some reason or another (whether it be to avoid their life, family, job, etc.); casual people just want to have fun. There would still be like 9 million people if there were only casual players in WoW.
You really shouldn't stereotype people like that. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. First of all I don't believe the "casual/hardcore" classifications. All players are playing for different reasons, but I would go so far to bet the main reason is to enjoy the game they bought. Some may play more than others time wise and others may play less but it doesn't describe the person outside of the game. There may be a fella who plays all the time but mainly just chats and and doesn't really care about progression all so much. There may be a fella who play a lot less but all he does is raid when he is on waiting for that uber drop he has always wanted.
There are some who enjoy pvp and there are some that enjoy pve. There are also those who enjoy both. I myself love a game that is built for the "hardcore" as you put it but I do not play that much at all. I can't I have a family and a job that I like to do my best at. I just enjoy a game that provides me a fun grouping, challenging, and immersive environment. This game doesn't provide this for me. I don't care if I can't max out my character in a month. I want my online game I pay for to last for years, I enjoy the leveling process and dungeons. Neither way is right or wrong.
Well i do think the casual/hardcore thing is close to meaningless.
However it does seem that the people who self-identify themselves as hardcore very much tend to be playing and advocating for things far removed from fun. They also tend to try to punish others so that they can accomplish these other motives.
There are a lot of people who actually are hardcore either in time commitment and/or in attitude (what some people might call hard chargers) that do not do this. But they also very often do not put the appellation of "hardcore" onto themselves. They do not expect everyone to operate their way.
And really it is just not arguable that things like time investment are serious and purposeful gate to things. And that if that gate is lifted the self-identifying hardcores start complaining about how their "acheivement" is no longer meaningful because it is no longer exclusive.
This is exactly what happened with the raids in WoW when Burning crusade came out and later with PvP epcis etc.
Face it for many people who call themselves hardcore its not about amount of time, its about the amount of other people who have or do it. Why do you think many raiders keep track of world and server firsts. Exclusivity that is why.
This is inherently an us vs. them dichotomy they purposefully set up and advocate for. The fact is that when you go one way EVERYONE can participate and when you go the other way less and less people can participate. It is fine the not every game is going to meet every person tastes. Some will like Vanguard some will like WoW some will like WAR that is fine.
But clearly there is a different trend in access and clearly there is a group that tries to take away access from others. And when they have gotten their way in the past that group winds up being about 10% of that games population. And that group usually calls themselves the "hardcore" even when in EQ1 there were people who soloed or grouped crazy stuff and put in large amounts of time yet they weren't quite in this group.
It is true that you can't give everything to everyone all at once in a game that is meant to have progression. It is true that different games will wind up having different pacing for their progression. It is true that some people, although a fairly small minority, like games with very extended progression. That is all fine.
But its not the same thing as this us vs. them dynamic that this group really does advocate for and has definitely had success in maneuvering games into.
Originally posted by BlackWatch Hardcore to me = subject matter expert. These are the guys that either know the answers or know exactly where to get them. They are someone who knows the game and is highly versed in the mechanics and inner-most workings. They may have spent time in game to learn this stuff or reading, but bottom-line... they know it. Hardcore to me = trend setters. The people that create the FOTM's for everyone else. Harcore to me = power levellers. Hardcore to me = multi-boxers. Casual gamers NEED hardcore gamers. Why? Because it's the hardcore that get things figured out so you don't have to spend your time doing that. They are the ones who blaze trails in games. It's their work that ends up in guides or maps and such.
Hmmm. I don't know about anyone else but I've never felt any great need for power levelers and multi-boxers and people who constantly jump to the current flavor-of-the-month class/build or, what was that first one? Sounded like people who are obsessed with min-maxing to me, so no, I've never felt any great need for those types either.
Heck, I don't even know for sure if I'm casual or hardcore anymore but if that's the definition of hardcore then I don't want to be hardcore.
And yeah, I don't think I really need anyone to "blaze trails in games" for me either. I guess spoiler sites are pretty standard now but I've never thought they were a particularly good thing for mmorpgs.
By the way, gestalt11, did you play in the War beta? I ask because I know that I agree with you enough about certain things that I would tend to trust your judgement of the game more than I would from some random reviewer.
I think that game development evolved the term Hardcore into the associated time criteria because all the difficult achievements in current games have such a large time investment. I would agree that it does take a lot of focus and a lot of effort to be on the bleeding edge of the gear treadmill, or the whatever else it may be at the top end in other games.
Interestingly enough.. I did read so many different definitions of the term hardcore when Vanguard launched that I know everyone has their own way of defining it. Things like meaningful travel, death penalties, equipment decay, corpse runs, pvp looting, and contested content are all things that 'hardcore' players often talk about. But here we are in the post WoW gaming world, and there is a tendency to associate risk with time investment. Risk it what defines draws the line between casual and hardcore in the back of my mind, but at the forefront there is how games are currently being designed around time investment that limits who is allowed to be hardcore.
Good to know that WAR will have a broad appeal. Thing I still haven't seen clearly answered is simply what the competitive divide will be at level cap between varying levels of time investment. I personally have a hard time drawing conclusions by what a level 2 character is allowed to contribute. I'm not an alt-aholic, but I'm not an elitist, and I don't want to be forced into playing like an elitist to find enjoyment at the end of the game. That's still my concern.
You can create 1 characer in 1 minute. Has son you enter the map, click "Enter battleground". You first quest, or 2 th quest will ding you to level 2. Then the battleground will start. As level 2, you will still be able to kill people and have fun, because the game will autolevel you to 8 for the battleground. Until you run into players 38 Ranks higher than you. This mean, in something like 3 minutes, you will be kicking ass of other players. more like dieing every 3 minutes to players that out rank you, or ZERG groups that roll thru you. Theres no other MMO where in 3 minutes you can be doing quest AND pvp AND exploring, etc.. Shadowbane, UO and a few others for starters. WAR excels at casuals, IMHO. To a very small degree yes, otherwise wait till release and your hardcore players power level and roll thru everyone that starts fresh and tries to PvP at lower Ranks. Anyway... IANC YMMV.
You can create 1 characer in 1 minute. Has son you enter the map, click "Enter battleground". You first quest, or 2 th quest will ding you to level 2. Then the battleground will start. As level 2, you will still be able to kill people and have fun, because the game will autolevel you to 8 for the battleground. Until you run into players 38 Ranks higher than you. This mean, in something like 3 minutes, you will be kicking ass of other players. more like dieing every 3 minutes to players that out rank you, or ZERG groups that roll thru you. Theres no other MMO where in 3 minutes you can be doing quest AND pvp AND exploring, etc.. Shadowbane, UO and a few others for starters. WAR excels at casuals, IMHO. To a very small degree yes, otherwise wait till release and your hardcore players power level and roll thru everyone that starts fresh and tries to PvP at lower Ranks. Anyway... IANC YMMV.
Have you even played the game? It's designed to not allow higher levels to participate in lower Tier RvR. AT ALL. So nothing you said had any validity.
"Casual" gamers get bashed because they most often complain that their characters are not as developed as someone else who put more time and effort into character development.
And they are resented for the exact same reason that the OP has brought here... That THEY have a life, and anyone who has a more developed character than they do DOESN'T.
You can create 1 characer in 1 minute. Has son you enter the map, click "Enter battleground". You first quest, or 2 th quest will ding you to level 2. Then the battleground will start. As level 2, you will still be able to kill people and have fun, because the game will autolevel you to 8 for the battleground. Until you run into players 38 Ranks higher than you. This mean, in something like 3 minutes, you will be kicking ass of other players. more like dieing every 3 minutes to players that out rank you, or ZERG groups that roll thru you. Theres no other MMO where in 3 minutes you can be doing quest AND pvp AND exploring, etc.. Shadowbane, UO and a few others for starters. WAR excels at casuals, IMHO. To a very small degree yes, otherwise wait till release and your hardcore players power level and roll thru everyone that starts fresh and tries to PvP at lower Ranks. Anyway... IANC YMMV.
Way to post without having a clue of what you're talking about. Brilliant.
EDIT: I'll clue you in. You are free to go back to any content or zone that you've outgrown, but any interaction will turn you into a chicken with 1hp. So unless you plan on pwning lower levels as a band of chickens, I don't think your comment holds up.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
First to answer the OP, yes m y impression from the CE pre-order closed beta is tha a player with limited time to invest in WAR can still have fun and feel they have acomplished something for their limited time investment. I've found I can do a few cycles on a Public Quest, or one or two regular quests in an hour without too much problem. Also as long as the scenario ques are short enough, you can get in and RvR a scenario, or jump into open world RvR and have fun in an hour's time as well.
Second, in response to all the "casual player" haters. If it weren't for the casual players, your game would probably have greatly reduced numbers playing it. The players who play 5 hours a week, but pay the same as someone who plays 25 hours a week are subsidizing your overall lower subscription rates for you. You should be thanking them, not cursing them. I've yet to see a "Hard Core Player's only" game survive for long on the open pay to play market. Frankly speaking, paying Hard Core Players are the minority in all of the popular pay to play games. Where they usually dominate is the free to play arena.
Why the vocal hard core playing minority thinks they need to dictate the game play experience for the majority of paying players is beyond me. The only thing they have over a "casual player" is more emotional and time investment in the game. Neither one of these things put money in the game company's pocket, and can be said to cost the company more in increased bandwicth and data center costs.
I hope you now have a better understanding of why the "casual player" experience should not be looked down upon by game companies. "Casual" means just that "casual", it doesn't mean whiny, childish people who want everything now, since those people exist in equal percentages in every player type. A casual player just wants a game experience that can be fun in a hour or two, as opposed to a game experience that requires 10 hours to make any kind of measureable progress, or which feels like a grind or gankfest while playing.
Third and finally, I am interested in forming up or joining a "hard core player" need not apply guild. A casual guild that is fine with limited time players, and helping mature casual players have fun with the game time they do have. No pressure, no mandatory attendance, just a limit on immature behaving players. Post below if you are interested in getting organized.
WAR is probably the most casual friendly MMO I have seen recently. I assume when you are speaking about not standing a chance you are talking about RvR. Luckily, WAR is very well balanced and dependant mostly on levels + a little on gear. As long as you have decent gear (quest or PQ loot) you will do fine in RvR. Plus there is a nice feature that if you are below the cap for a scenario the game will give you a buff to increase your HP, defense, and damage. For example. If you are level 5, and join a scenario you will have the base HP, defense, and damage of a level 8 character. It's not much, but it helps to get into the fray sooner.
WAR is probably the most casual friendly MMO I have seen recently. I assume when you are speaking about not standing a chance you are talking about RvR. Luckily, WAR is very well balanced and dependant mostly on levels + a little on gear. As long as you have decent gear (quest or PQ loot) you will do fine in RvR. Plus there is a nice feature that if you are below the cap for a scenario the game will give you a buff to increase your HP, defense, and damage. For example. If you are level 5, and join a scenario you will have the base HP, defense, and damage of a level 8 character. It's not much, but it helps to get into the fray sooner.
So people will reach the CAP in a weekl or less?
No one knows. They have the xp jacked in beta so people can level quickly. I'm not sure how your question relates to the comment you quoted though. Dameonk's comment says nothing at all about leveling speed.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I’ve seen some, but not much on this subject. Hopefully one of you beta testers could answer it. I believe I speak for most casual players when I say that we are the group of people who don’t want to “live” a game and have it totally encompass our lives, but just play to have fun. We don’t play 24/7, but fit our game time in after playing the much more interesting game called real life. Anyway, is WAR the type of game where you don’t stand a chance unless you play until your eyes bleed for months on end in order to obtain the most uber leet gear so you can pwn the latest noobs? Or is it the type of game where someone who has a life can come into the game to have some fun PVP action and actually contribute to the battles going on?
If it’s the former, I won’t be a lasting subscriber. While I know there is a market for that type of game, it’s one I will not be playing. If it’s the later, they’ll have my money for many months to come.
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww".
The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre.
Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out.
WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more.
Dont like it? Play a different genre.
Don't feed the unemployed elitist trolls people. What the OP was saying, simply , is that for a working class stiff ( you know, the guys who pay for the hardcore gamers unemployment) how possible is it to move ahead in the game.
Simple answer? this game is a casual gamers dream come true. No waiting for groups, 99% of the game content is playable by those who have limited time. It has completely flipped, what this guys impression of an mmo should be on end. You can hardcore all you want, but ultimately in the end when the "casuals" get there, you will still only be very marginally better and they will still be the ones with a paycheck and a future, unlike scrubs like this.
People like this have to understand, casuals aren't whining because a worthless pile of human flesh who sits on his arse 18+hrs a day get 40% better gear. They are complaining, because they can't enjoy the content they paid for, they have "no" chance because of their life, to get said gear because it is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for dirt-bags with no jobs or real life obligations. Have you ever seen the old screenshots of hardcore EQ raiders or those guys doing the wow competitions? it's sick, they are such social outcasts you actually feel sorry for them. Warhammer, simply, does not cater to these type of people. Mark Jacobs already stated that.
Comments
I read a comment that someone wrote about Warhammer's questing system and instancing. It read something like:
" in other games like WOW, the average (casual) gamer only got to see 20% of the end game content, while in warhammer pretty much all the content is available at end game"
Sort of follows the line of DAOC where in the end its all pvp based. Although DAOC had alot of PVE in the mix with Artefacts etc which would be a little tough for the casual gamer to acheive and Master Levels. They later changed that to help casual play and more pvp centric gaming.
This seems to have carried through to Warhammer, which is just great IMO.
More time playing with real mates instead of faking being mates with 100+ people so you can just get gear!
Wow I think that 2 pages of this thread could have been saved if this was posted a little sooner.
Rabenwolf's defintion of a casual gamer is different than ... well.. everyone else.
Casual gamer - Rabenwolf: A mental state of someone who feels like they should get handed everything on a silver platter. They want everything a game has to offer, but they don't want to play to get it. This could be someone who plays 1 hour a day, or someone who plays 12 hours a day. It's a mental state, not a playstyle.
Casual gamer - everyone else: A playstyle. This type of player spends more time doing other things in their life than playing a game. They still might play a lot, but they do other things more.
There... hopefully this clears up any confusion.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It becomes us vs them when one type is ruining things for the other type. Casual people can't see all content in games like WoW because hardcore people complained. Hardcore people don't feel they are getting "better" enough stuff to warrant a reason to keep playing. At the end of the day you don't need hardcore people. You don't need people to blaze through the game and write guides, in fact those ruin a lot of the fun of exploring and learning from the game. The hardcore people NEED the game for some reason or another (whether it be to avoid their life, family, job, etc.); casual people just want to have fun. There would still be like 9 million people if there were only casual players in WoW.
About casuals, I'd like them to consider if they really need an MMO to spend such a few time of their lives and bother the rest of the community that are devoted to the game and spend hours upon hours.
But of course.. there are so many now that companies are forced to adapt the MMO to them.
(I love PinkCat and his pink writing
I am glad I did not preorder. Games are becoming nothing but instant gratification adventure games anymore. I guess the older folks like me will have to look for niche and older games to have our fun in the future. I know a lot will love this type and that is fine. I hope there are always small game companies out there that will continue to make games that put immersion, depth first. I prefer a nonlinear game that requires a lot of grouping to get things accomplished. Longer leveling to the top and some meaningful travel time.
I want my game to feel like an online virtual world not a online game. It seems the popular ones are going to online games instead of worlds. I find this above very unimmersiive for an rpg, I guess it is find for an adventure game. I also found other features lacking such as it is mostly solo leveling, progression goes very quickly.
I think every MMORPG should have a free trial before you buy. Most single games do this and it should definitely be the practice of MMORPGs. People should be able to see what they are getting for something they intend on playing for longterm (1-4 years). I hope this is a great title for the people who enjoy these types of games but it isn't my cup of tea by no means.
This is a sad... very sad fact. I'm in the same boat as you. I had high hopes for STO. That would have been the perfect IP to make a virtual world... not just another copy of a copy level based game. But, unfortunately Cryptic is making a game, not a world.
There's really nothing on the horizion that looks promising, and that is a little depressing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
this is a bit of an exageration. this game is made for all types of players: casual and hardcore. qombi was trying to let the op know that it doesnt take long from the start of the game to contribute and feel like you've achieved something.
You really shouldn't stereotype people like that. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. First of all I don't believe the "casual/hardcore" classifications. All players are playing for different reasons, but I would go so far to bet the main reason is to enjoy the game they bought. Some may play more than others time wise and others may play less but it doesn't describe the person outside of the game. There may be a fella who plays all the time but mainly just chats and and doesn't really care about progression all so much. There may be a fella who play a lot less but all he does is raid when he is on waiting for that uber drop he has always wanted.
There are some who enjoy pvp and there are some that enjoy pve. There are also those who enjoy both. I myself love a game that is built for the "hardcore" as you put it but I do not play that much at all. I can't I have a family and a job that I like to do my best at. I just enjoy a game that provides me a fun grouping, challenging, and immersive environment. This game doesn't provide this for me. I don't care if I can't max out my character in a month. I want my online game I pay for to last for years, I enjoy the leveling process and dungeons. Neither way is right or wrong.
I am glad I did not preorder. Games are becoming nothing but instant gratification adventure games anymore. I guess the older folks like me will have to look for niche and older games to have our fun in the future. I know a lot will love this type and that is fine. I hope there are always small game companies out there that will continue to make games that put immersion, depth first. I prefer a nonlinear game that requires a lot of grouping to get things accomplished. Longer leveling to the top and some meaningful travel time.
I want my game to feel like an online virtual world not a online game. It seems the popular ones are going to online games instead of worlds. I find this above very unimmersiive for an rpg, I guess it is find for an adventure game. I also found other features lacking such as it is mostly solo leveling, progression goes very quickly.
I think every MMORPG should have a free trial before you buy. Most single games do this and it should definitely be the practice of MMORPGs. People should be able to see what they are getting for something they intend on playing for longterm (1-4 years). I hope this is a great title for the people who enjoy these types of games but it isn't my cup of tea by no means.
You're making the same mistake a lot of WAR's critics seem to make. If it's easy enough for casual players and focused on fun then it's not a serious MMO and not for the hardcore. One has nothing to do with the other. There will be plenty for the hardcore player to do. It's just not PvE. While there will be a lot of PvE in the endgame it's tied to RvR, meaning your realm (not you specifically) opens up more PvE and RvR content as the war against the enemy realm progresses.
Like DAoC, the endgame is all about the RvR (which includes both PvP and PvE components) and it's an endless struggle. It's not about instance grinds or epic gear. It's about your realm's effort at taking the other realms' lands, cities and content.
With all the MMOs that have come and gone and the amount of crap that has been released, I can't believe that any MMO fan would pass on this game because they think they know what it's all about. Try it for 3 or 4 months and see for yourself. RvR really shines with more people than what is currently in beta. Yes there will be zergs, but there's always important uses for elite groups of hardcore players for each side. Think of the hardcore VoIP guilds as special forces and the rest of us as various levels of regular infantry. The hardcore always had a place in DAoC. WAR will be no different. Allowing the casual player to compete and have fun does not have to be at the hardcore player's expense. (nor vice versa)
EDIT: As for a game world that feels alive, well nothing achieves that better than being able to take the other player's game world from them and run the risk of losing your own.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
LOL so many people are ready to make a comparison to WOW when the game is so far from it its not funny. This is all because the game has stylised artistic content and a UI that looks similar to WOW.
Every game ive played has a UI similar to WOW. Infact games like DAOC had interfaces like WOW before WOW was WOW.
To be able to start playing a game and jump into the action form get go is a HUGE plus for Warhammer. Anyone saying otherwise is just .... im not sure what to say. From the start, you feel a part of the world. Its action from get go!
Its WAR for god sake!
Saying that it's all just instant gratification and not immersive because they get the ball rolling soon is stupid. Like the previous poster said, its WAAAAAAGH! Each starting area is being attacked by NPCs of the other side, its all out WAR from level 1. There is no, well wait until level 25, and 6 months later THEN we'll use you for the war effort. That's not immersive at all, THAT is a game, with false limitations.
The fact that from the second you roll your character, you are a warm body and can contribute to your sides struggle, THAT is immersion. There is plenty more to push for and accomplish after level 1, I assure you
You really shouldn't stereotype people like that. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. First of all I don't believe the "casual/hardcore" classifications. All players are playing for different reasons, but I would go so far to bet the main reason is to enjoy the game they bought. Some may play more than others time wise and others may play less but it doesn't describe the person outside of the game. There may be a fella who plays all the time but mainly just chats and and doesn't really care about progression all so much. There may be a fella who play a lot less but all he does is raid when he is on waiting for that uber drop he has always wanted.
There are some who enjoy pvp and there are some that enjoy pve. There are also those who enjoy both. I myself love a game that is built for the "hardcore" as you put it but I do not play that much at all. I can't I have a family and a job that I like to do my best at. I just enjoy a game that provides me a fun grouping, challenging, and immersive environment. This game doesn't provide this for me. I don't care if I can't max out my character in a month. I want my online game I pay for to last for years, I enjoy the leveling process and dungeons. Neither way is right or wrong.
Well i do think the casual/hardcore thing is close to meaningless.
However it does seem that the people who self-identify themselves as hardcore very much tend to be playing and advocating for things far removed from fun. They also tend to try to punish others so that they can accomplish these other motives.
There are a lot of people who actually are hardcore either in time commitment and/or in attitude (what some people might call hard chargers) that do not do this. But they also very often do not put the appellation of "hardcore" onto themselves. They do not expect everyone to operate their way.
And really it is just not arguable that things like time investment are serious and purposeful gate to things. And that if that gate is lifted the self-identifying hardcores start complaining about how their "acheivement" is no longer meaningful because it is no longer exclusive.
This is exactly what happened with the raids in WoW when Burning crusade came out and later with PvP epcis etc.
Face it for many people who call themselves hardcore its not about amount of time, its about the amount of other people who have or do it. Why do you think many raiders keep track of world and server firsts. Exclusivity that is why.
This is inherently an us vs. them dichotomy they purposefully set up and advocate for. The fact is that when you go one way EVERYONE can participate and when you go the other way less and less people can participate. It is fine the not every game is going to meet every person tastes. Some will like Vanguard some will like WoW some will like WAR that is fine.
But clearly there is a different trend in access and clearly there is a group that tries to take away access from others. And when they have gotten their way in the past that group winds up being about 10% of that games population. And that group usually calls themselves the "hardcore" even when in EQ1 there were people who soloed or grouped crazy stuff and put in large amounts of time yet they weren't quite in this group.
It is true that you can't give everything to everyone all at once in a game that is meant to have progression. It is true that different games will wind up having different pacing for their progression. It is true that some people, although a fairly small minority, like games with very extended progression. That is all fine.
But its not the same thing as this us vs. them dynamic that this group really does advocate for and has definitely had success in maneuvering games into.
Hmmm. I don't know about anyone else but I've never felt any great need for power levelers and multi-boxers and people who constantly jump to the current flavor-of-the-month class/build or, what was that first one? Sounded like people who are obsessed with min-maxing to me, so no, I've never felt any great need for those types either.
Heck, I don't even know for sure if I'm casual or hardcore anymore but if that's the definition of hardcore then I don't want to be hardcore.
And yeah, I don't think I really need anyone to "blaze trails in games" for me either. I guess spoiler sites are pretty standard now but I've never thought they were a particularly good thing for mmorpgs.
By the way, gestalt11, did you play in the War beta? I ask because I know that I agree with you enough about certain things that I would tend to trust your judgement of the game more than I would from some random reviewer.
I think that game development evolved the term Hardcore into the associated time criteria because all the difficult achievements in current games have such a large time investment. I would agree that it does take a lot of focus and a lot of effort to be on the bleeding edge of the gear treadmill, or the whatever else it may be at the top end in other games.
Interestingly enough.. I did read so many different definitions of the term hardcore when Vanguard launched that I know everyone has their own way of defining it. Things like meaningful travel, death penalties, equipment decay, corpse runs, pvp looting, and contested content are all things that 'hardcore' players often talk about. But here we are in the post WoW gaming world, and there is a tendency to associate risk with time investment. Risk it what defines draws the line between casual and hardcore in the back of my mind, but at the forefront there is how games are currently being designed around time investment that limits who is allowed to be hardcore.
Good to know that WAR will have a broad appeal. Thing I still haven't seen clearly answered is simply what the competitive divide will be at level cap between varying levels of time investment. I personally have a hard time drawing conclusions by what a level 2 character is allowed to contribute. I'm not an alt-aholic, but I'm not an elitist, and I don't want to be forced into playing like an elitist to find enjoyment at the end of the game. That's still my concern.
The main benefit of time investment will be renown.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Casual versus Hardcore is tired argument in my opinion.
Have you even played the game? It's designed to not allow higher levels to participate in lower Tier RvR. AT ALL. So nothing you said had any validity.
"Casual" gamers get bashed because they most often complain that their characters are not as developed as someone else who put more time and effort into character development.
And they are resented for the exact same reason that the OP has brought here... That THEY have a life, and anyone who has a more developed character than they do DOESN'T.
He said it outright in his opening post.
Way to post without having a clue of what you're talking about. Brilliant.
EDIT: I'll clue you in. You are free to go back to any content or zone that you've outgrown, but any interaction will turn you into a chicken with 1hp. So unless you plan on pwning lower levels as a band of chickens, I don't think your comment holds up.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
First to answer the OP, yes m y impression from the CE pre-order closed beta is tha a player with limited time to invest in WAR can still have fun and feel they have acomplished something for their limited time investment. I've found I can do a few cycles on a Public Quest, or one or two regular quests in an hour without too much problem. Also as long as the scenario ques are short enough, you can get in and RvR a scenario, or jump into open world RvR and have fun in an hour's time as well.
Second, in response to all the "casual player" haters. If it weren't for the casual players, your game would probably have greatly reduced numbers playing it. The players who play 5 hours a week, but pay the same as someone who plays 25 hours a week are subsidizing your overall lower subscription rates for you. You should be thanking them, not cursing them. I've yet to see a "Hard Core Player's only" game survive for long on the open pay to play market. Frankly speaking, paying Hard Core Players are the minority in all of the popular pay to play games. Where they usually dominate is the free to play arena.
Why the vocal hard core playing minority thinks they need to dictate the game play experience for the majority of paying players is beyond me. The only thing they have over a "casual player" is more emotional and time investment in the game. Neither one of these things put money in the game company's pocket, and can be said to cost the company more in increased bandwicth and data center costs.
I hope you now have a better understanding of why the "casual player" experience should not be looked down upon by game companies. "Casual" means just that "casual", it doesn't mean whiny, childish people who want everything now, since those people exist in equal percentages in every player type. A casual player just wants a game experience that can be fun in a hour or two, as opposed to a game experience that requires 10 hours to make any kind of measureable progress, or which feels like a grind or gankfest while playing.
Third and finally, I am interested in forming up or joining a "hard core player" need not apply guild. A casual guild that is fine with limited time players, and helping mature casual players have fun with the game time they do have. No pressure, no mandatory attendance, just a limit on immature behaving players. Post below if you are interested in getting organized.
I hope this helps.
So people will reach the CAP in a weekl or less?
So people will reach the CAP in a weekl or less?
No one knows. They have the xp jacked in beta so people can level quickly. I'm not sure how your question relates to the comment you quoted though. Dameonk's comment says nothing at all about leveling speed.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
This is the problem I have with casual players. They assume they should have everything available to them without working for it, and those that work for it there for have no life. The problem with this mentality is its no different than a kid crying about how "its not fair" and "i want it nowwwww".
The problem with Casual players is they want instant gratification and hate it when rpgs allow for more work = more reward. The problem is you people are playing the wrong genre and expecting the wrong things in regards to that genre.
Casual players are the cancer of the gaming industry, they help provide fun instant action games but at the same time end up causing rpgs to be dumbed down and fps's as well as some other games to be made shorter rather than drawn out.
WAR will allow you have your action, but you still have to work for what you achieve. Those who work more will achieve more.
Dont like it? Play a different genre.
Don't feed the unemployed elitist trolls people. What the OP was saying, simply , is that for a working class stiff ( you know, the guys who pay for the hardcore gamers unemployment) how possible is it to move ahead in the game.
Simple answer? this game is a casual gamers dream come true. No waiting for groups, 99% of the game content is playable by those who have limited time. It has completely flipped, what this guys impression of an mmo should be on end. You can hardcore all you want, but ultimately in the end when the "casuals" get there, you will still only be very marginally better and they will still be the ones with a paycheck and a future, unlike scrubs like this.
People like this have to understand, casuals aren't whining because a worthless pile of human flesh who sits on his arse 18+hrs a day get 40% better gear. They are complaining, because they can't enjoy the content they paid for, they have "no" chance because of their life, to get said gear because it is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for dirt-bags with no jobs or real life obligations. Have you ever seen the old screenshots of hardcore EQ raiders or those guys doing the wow competitions? it's sick, they are such social outcasts you actually feel sorry for them. Warhammer, simply, does not cater to these type of people. Mark Jacobs already stated that.