"I wish I could read one post on this freakin forum where some WOW fanboi doesnt come in trying to hype up and defend Wowcrap as some incredible game."
I got as far as this first sentence in your original post.
People like Warcraft and people don't. If you want this post to take on ANY merit, don't "fanboi" it up in your opening sentence....
A whole lot of lose in the OP...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Of course Wow came first. ... about 4 years. Or do you think otherwise ? LOL
Well, if we're talking World of Warcraft versus Warhammer Online, then yes.. WoW came first.
However, the point I'm sure Ty is making that the Warhammer IP was created long before Warcraft and, in fact, Warcraft borrows significantly from Warhammer. In that case, he is correct.
I didn't know IP was a ...game.
This is a record so old it is becoming legitimate by old age even when it fails on all lines.
I know Warhammer lore and I know the other lore. They are as far apart as a fantasy setting with orcs and goblins can be. War is all about armies with their own identities battling with each other on an eternal battlefield in a world of War. (and Mythic pretty much screwed the IP lore by having only 2 factions).
The other game is about the evil within and the good and the bad are both within and out there with the others. Holy light heroes become devils and vice versa. The evil gets into a world and becomes the enemy with a face corrupting all races. There is only war between factions when the evil within wins.
I would even say Blizzard lends far more ideas from Middle Earth than the simplistic Warhammer lore.
The only thing I regret is that Games Workshop is doing a pretty bad job onto holding out on their IP's. One Warhammer product after another comes out and they all succeed in not even following the once famous IP. Mark of Chaos or War (where are the proper Army identities of the TT?).
Just have a look at the differences in comics between the two "IP"-s.
But the end conclusion stays the same: we are talking MMORPG's here.
Yes mythic only went with the 2 sides, to start. The entire design and development of the game, if you dont count any work done on imperator being reused for war was 3 years. Which was the challenge that they had set for themselves. To have added all the other factions and what not would have been a 10 year development cycle, at least to have made a game with the same amount of detail and polish. The game has been out for what, 3 months? What do you expect skaven, chaos dorfs, undead lords, and all the different chaos and empire factions?
How exactly has GW done poorly by the IP? you name 2, ONLY 2 games. Mark of Chaos, meh I'll cede the point on that one, the mechanics were shoddy but the story was rather cool. WaR is a decent game in its own right and I would wager with the way mythic is attacking problems and adding stuff it will be a great game in short order. It is already better than most of hte stuff out there, including wow. Why didn't you mention the games by THQ? The whole Dawn of War series has been excellent, Dawn of War 2 is looking awesome, and they are working on the 40k mmo. Before the recent resurrection of Warhammer gaming the only ones I can think of from earlier days are Bloodbowl and Space Hulk. Both which were exceptional games in their time.
Uh, only the orginal Dawn of War was something to speak of. The rest of the game's/expansions in the series is just one skirmish battle after another. That was what turned me off the entire Dawn of War series. The first one was great, the rest one big meh..Maybe they are better online, but I don't play rts' online except the original WC3 and it's expansion. It didn't last too long for me either allthough DoTA had me entertained for quite a while.
When speaking about the lore and what Mythic done with it in the mmo all it get from me is a long drawn-out sigh. 2 factions out of how many? Rock, scissor, paper approach to pvp...please. That's just shitfaced stupid and lazy. WAR got so many flaws holding it back from being one great mmo it's not even funny. First error is they trying to copy WoW. Yes, they did. I don't care what came first ip-wise, WAR still feel like WoW-lite to me, just with a pvp-patch.
Regarding fanbois hating on WAR, remember there is a big difference pointing out the flaws of a game, and outright hating it. I feel the OP, while this thread is his rant, missed the point alot of people point out when it comes to WAR. Being critical aint hating, never was and never will be.
All just wow trolls tring to dog War cause they cant stand to see a game that might own wow so sad
Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."
All just wow trolls tring to dog War cause they cant stand to see a game that might own wow so sad
Rofl, EQ2 *might* still own WoW but just like WAR that's not going to happen. Have you been living under a rock? The game released already you know. This kind of thing was interesting before release but at this point the game's released and the sales have long dropped below WoW's . It may be "owning" other MMO's, depending on what definition you give "to own" but clearly it's not owning WoW, at least not sales wise/subscriber wise.
ill answer mary POPPINs question of why so many left early...
pretty simple really... same reason my friend left. They had no absolute clue about the game... from T1-T3 the game was pretty basic... same...not till you reach T4 is where the game got more complex...
Everybody who keeps saying Warhammer is like WOW is dead wrong and dont even understand this game. This game is NOT about scenarios... its about a mixture of Scenarios... PQs... Open RvR...
you need to do all 3 to win an area... not just one of them... ALL OF THEM... in T4... finally after long battles... the land of elves have been locked because ORDER won it. they overtook it and it becomes locked for the winners.
other area that was locked is now opened and ready to be taken... there are a few areas that can be worked on. OPEN RvR has improved immensely to encourage it more.
Of course with WOW brought impatient players. people trying to compare a POLISHED game of 4 years to a 3 month old released game is like comparing apples and oranges. whats funny is people are right if they are already starting to compare the two.. Mythic is doing something right.
yeah say about WOWs numbers all you want but it does not make for a great game. WOW is coming from the MOST POPULAR RTS game in history where its still played heavily in CHINA and asian countries along with many many other countries.
WOW brought in tons of new players to the Market. However, WOW is a fairly simplistic game. in WOWs first 3 months of release... they were still bug ridden... they didnt have much for pvp... hell at launch WOW didnt even have pvp. they made promises of adding in Sieging at launch... now 4 years later they add it in... yet nobody seemed to have mentioned that.
Mythic launched a game with far less bugs then WOW was at 3 months of release. but again, too many people were rushing to complain about warhammer thinking it was WOW. hell people were complaining there wasnt dancing. there wasnt a community because there wasnt a meeting place where they can sit and talk to others.. LOL
Warhammer is built around PVP... yes its not everybodies cup of tea. thats normal for any MMO. But to sit here and bash a game like warhammer after only 3-4 months of release? LOL lame. and trying to compare it to a 4 year old polished game.... even more lame.
my friend fell into the same attitude as others with this game. impatient to wait for fixes or even improvements to the game on POPULAR ADVICE from players. YES thats right. Mythic actually listened to people and did something about it.
people asked for more reasons to Open RvR. they gave it especially in their newest patch 1.1. THey have been quick to patch and fix things in game.
but like i said WOW has made a huge player base very impatient. the core of this game is great. I saw that. Mythic has delivered what they promised. Most dont see it though.
and they are continueing to add more and more. the game is turning out to be a great game. in time, they will add a free trial and it will bring others back.
WOW brought in tons of new players to the Market. However, WOW is a fairly simplistic game. in WOWs first 3 months of release... they were still bug ridden... they didnt have much for pvp
Refreshing for some Warhammer fan for actually trying to answer why over 40% of people left Warhammer. I really appreciate a answer without a stupid personal retort for a change. Kudos.
I would say Willvas, That you make points that can are valid, but omit some things as well.
I do agree that WoW is rather simplistic, but THAT'S the appeal. The majority of gamers doesn't want to go on a game, figure out something that takes an hour and then play for 10 minutes. It's about maximizing your gameplay time with the most amount of fun possible. This is why WoW is successful. Sometimes simplicity can be a good and profitable thing. I don't personally like it too simple, but most casual gamers do, hence WoW's success.
Of course with WOW brought impatient players. people trying to compare a POLISHED game of 4 years to a 3 month old released game is like comparing apples and oranges. whats funny is people are right if they are already starting to compare the two.. Mythic is doing something right.
Most of the comparing of Wow honestly, isn't being done by WoW fans. Take a look a the majority of posts on Warhammer forum here and elsewhere, like the OP. He is the one drawing a correlation between the two games and players. He didn't mention any other game other than AoC in passing, and not that AoC fans were flaming War. He's talking about WoW fans. Here, a War fan is doing the comparing.
There are a lot of War people who keep saying they like WAR better than WoW. Now again, that cool. But right there in there posts, THEY are comparing the two. Instead of simply saying "I like War for this/that" they would rather post usually "I like War cause it's not like Wow, it doesn't do this/this". Take a serious read on those posts. You'll see it. Most WoW fans stick to their own forums. Pre-release you had Warheads running into the WoW forums proclaiming gloom and doom with Warhammer's arrival, not the other way around.
Warhammer is built around PVP... yes its not everybodies cup of tea. thats normal for any MMO. But to sit here and bash a game like warhammer after only 3-4 months of release? LOL lame. and trying to compare it to a 4 year old polished game.... even more lame.
Again, this is quite a few War fans who continue to draw the comparison. I don't even OWN WoTLK (nor am I buying it), but each time I mention something critical of WAR: "WoWboi, go back to your game" "LOTRO boy" lol. It's really comical that anytime someone says War has a problem, thats the tag. Even Paul Barnett, when you look back at interviews pre and post release, was taking countless shots at Blizzard at every chance. This was done to maximize the pub regarding Warhammer and to build some kind of rivalry, so people would think War was meant to rival Wow. Which is what Mythic intended all along, to rival Wow and steal customers. To not see this is really strange. You can go back and read all Paul Barnett's fighting words. Of course the Warheads (diehards) followed suit as anyone following would. Most Wow fans didn't even know Warhammer was a coming game, so why would they be threatened? They never heard of it or the Warhammer lore. ( I hadn't) I saw games like Warhammer 40k on PC, but never bought it and I certainly never played any of their tabletop dice games.
Warhammer is built around PvP yes. But thats part of the reason over 40% left... the actual fighting is ok, but there is no point to any of it. Just kill for no reason in a big mosh. There's no reason to fear death in this game. And if that's all their is when the PvE is boring and the crafting is a joke... what else would you do when the Pvp is rare and pointless when its actually going on?
In WoW, when you Pvp and die, they attach a death timer to you so you don't just respawn, run back to the battle and die again. Your'e some kind of ghostie thing who can't do anything but sit there. That time penatly increases the MORE you die, making you be more cautious.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time.
The dynamic in Eve is totally different that what you are comparing to Warhammer. Warheads like you Wyntermute claim we should not compare War to Wow because they are apples and oranges. Yet, here you are comparing two games (Eve and Warhammer) that have almost no similarities other than you try to kill someone else. War has way more in common with WoW than Eve, my friend.. right down to the UI they both share.
At least in Eve, there is a death penalty, as it should be some form of in PvP combat. Want to pick a fight with someone? Go up against another corporation? Fine. Just realize that if they blow your ship to smithereens, you will NOT be back in the battle helping your Corporation in 30 seconds. Heck, you won't even have a ship left. Unless you bought some insurance, you don't have anything at all left, save your skills from what I've read on it. Have you played Eve? Is this not the case? Again, I haven't but from what I read, you just made a misrepresentation and dumbing down of Eve's complex gameplay. I freely admit I've never played Eve, so I'm not going to pretend I know how that works. But I think I'm more right about the ship battle than you are. People don't just die, then run back with a new ship right away, like you do in Warhammer combat and join the battle.
So how is that comparable to Warhammer? Battles in Eve are way more thought out and not willy nilly zerg affairs from what I read. There is a considerable amount of risk in those. But you digress Wyntermute...
What risk, pray tell, IS there is Warhammer other than getting "pwned"? None. Please list it for me Wyntermute as I may have missed it during my playing time in Warhammer.
But if you MUST insist on comparing Eve to Warhammer, I would say that the one thing that both will have closest in common is going to be total subscription amounts than anything in gameplay or philosophy.
If youre getting "cheesed off", why are you responding? You do realize you don't have to, right?
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his uninsightful comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment, which of course won't happen since I have nothing against EvE as a game.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his valuable comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment. I won't provide that entertainment for him however.
Sorry Wintermute but Popinjay & Maxnrosy are correct. There really is no comparison between the PvP in EVE and WAR. In EVE you can fight battles that actually have a purpose to them which might have a strategical or financial reason behind them. In EVE you can ask the question "Why is this war being fought?" and there is a very good chance that you will get a sensible answer. The same cannot be said for WAR.
In WAR the PvP battles dont mean anything. There is nothing to be gained or lost by winning or losing a Keep which obviously is why many people dont bother with the open RvR and ultimately why people dont bother with the game period. There is absolutely no risk vs reward in WAR so whats the point?
The reason WAR gets compared to WoW so much is simply because Mythic blatantly tried to copy its "magic formulae" and failed. The similarities between the two games are unavoidable. It might have been more successful if the PvP was integrated into the core part of the game but it simply wasnt. WAR was NOT built around PvP. It was built around the same PvE game design that WoW was and then the PvP playpens were added as an optional method of gaining levels......because thats all WAR is about......gaining levels......just like WoW. There is no war in WAR.......there is merely yet another level grinding treadmill just like there is in any PvE game.......like WoW.
Ok, I haven't posted since page 2 of this jewel of a thread.
Sigh, I just read through all 14 pages or so....
So here is the recap,
First, Tyvolus please just stop posting, It's cool if you want to post in some other war thread, but in this particular thread, it is not a very good idea anymore, you have been owned by so many people so far that I would consider a new account and name change. Poppin, WSIMike and Almerel, pretty much have had you on lock down since you began posting.
I even went so far as to take every single post you made from this thread and stuck them into wordpad, so I can post them all at one time if needed. I must say though that if I did, it would only make matters worse for you.
PS Ty, Calling people frodo, telling people Arthus is their hero, and telling people they are ignorant, after some of the post you have made, is a very very poor decision.
Second, Poppin, your post are good and well articulated. They make sense, I am pretty sure everyone understands them. Only thing I would do different is to stop even typing back to Tyvulos. The guys doesn't get it and is not likely to anytime soon. Just leave him be, if he wants to float around the forums in a make believe world who are we to stop him.
Third, WSIMike, typically plays devils advocate in most forums, and can always counter a post. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad, he can counter it. Which makes for good debates which is what forums are typically about.
Last, Xhieron's post should really be the only post on a thread like this. It was the most well written and intelligent post I have read in the thread so far. Not only in the thread on mmorpg in a long time. Xhieron spoke the truth, and his points on WOW vs WAR are the true heart of the matter.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his uninsightful comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment, which of course won't happen since I have nothing against EvE as a game.
not that i got upset, but you do have to admit you did not explain in that post popin was oversimplifying wars pvp mechanics and you were using eve as an example . If any eve player comes in and reads your post they most likely would have reacted the same. (btw i was part of the bruce allience a while back, we had many skirmishes agaisnt bob on our outter rim of our territory, getting back did take a while)
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Second, Poppin, your post are good and well articulated. They make sense, I am pretty sure everyone understands them. Only thing I would do different is to stop even typing back to Tyvulos. The guys doesn't get it and is not likely to anytime soon. Just leave him be, if he wants to float around the forums in a make believe world who are we to stop him.
This is the best advice I've gotten in awhile. Although I knew better, I couldn't resist. I guess I proved that old adage "Who's more foolish.. a fool or the man who argues with one."
Shame on me. I'll try to get back to discussing facts and ignoring people who don't.
Except you forget the fact that 8 out of 10 users on this site will click "Quote" on the OP no matter the length of it and no matter if they have read it or not and start projectile vomiting onto their keyboard and hope it makes sense. In a not-so-rare occasion they will also hit up dictionary.com so they can use superflous fluff words (kind of like I did with superflous - catch that irony?) to make themselves appear well-read. Appear.
You did save me from reading it though, I was almost bored enough to read it.
Ok, I haven't posted since page 2 of this jewel of a thread. Sigh, I just read through all 14 pages or so.... So here is the recap, First, Tyvolus please just stop posting, It's cool if you want to post in some other war thread, but in this particular thread, it is not a very good idea anymore, you have been owned by so many people so far that I would consider a new account and name change. Poppin, WSIMike and Almerel, pretty much have had you on lock down since you began posting. I even went so far as to take every single post you made from this thread and stuck them into wordpad, so I can post them all at one time if needed. I must say though that if I did, it would only make matters worse for you. PS Ty, Calling people frodo, telling people Arthus is their hero, and telling people they are ignorant, after some of the post you have made, is a very very poor decision.
Second, Poppin, your post are good and well articulated. They make sense, I am pretty sure everyone understands them. Only thing I would do different is to stop even typing back to Tyvulos. The guys doesn't get it and is not likely to anytime soon. Just leave him be, if he wants to float around the forums in a make believe world who are we to stop him.
Third, WSIMike, typically plays devils advocate in most forums, and can always counter a post. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad, he can counter it. Which makes for good debates which is what forums are typically about.
Last, Xhieron's post should really be the only post on a thread like this. It was the most well written and intelligent post I have read in the thread so far. Not only in the thread on mmorpg in a long time. Xhieron spoke the truth, and his points on WOW vs WAR are the true heart of the matter.
There I saved everyone 14 pages of reading.
you didnt offer cookies and milk tho
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Sorry Wintermute but Popinjay & Maxnrosy are correct. There really is no comparison between the PvP in EVE and WAR. In EVE you can fight battles that actually have a purpose to them which might have a strategical or financial reason behind them. In EVE you can ask the question "Why is this war being fought?" and there is a very good chance that you will get a sensible answer. The same cannot be said for WAR. In WAR the PvP battles dont mean anything. There is nothing to be gained or lost by winning or losing a Keep which obviously is why many people dont bother with the open RvR and ultimately why people dont bother with the game period. There is absolutely no risk vs reward in WAR so whats the point? The reason WAR gets compared to WoW so much is simply because Mythic blatantly tried to copy its "magic formulae" and failed. The similarities between the two games are unavoidable. It might have been more successful if the PvP was integrated into the core part of the game but it simply wasnt. WAR was NOT built around PvP. It was built around the same PvE game design that WoW was and then the PvP playpens were added as an optional method of gaining levels......because thats all WAR is about......gaining levels......just like WoW. There is no war in WAR.......there is merely yet another level grinding treadmill just like there is in any PvE game.......like WoW.
Here's what he said:
The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork... It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
Here's what I said:
...the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Now.
Losing a fight/skirmish/keep IS the consequence. If you play EvE, that might not be enough consequence for you, but that IS a consequence.
I'm not going to argue you about the "why is this war being fought" question because that's not what I was addressing.
No Wyntermute, this is what I said that you quoted in box:
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
And this was your response to that:
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
Now as you read this, you don't see your post as inflammatory, incorrect and misrepresentive? And no, I am not trying to start some "war" between factions lol. You made this statement.. I didn't even bring Eve into the picture here. Can you please keep things in the proper order so a 'discussion' can happen other than "he said" "I said"?
This is not meant as a flame to you so you can replace someone else I was yakking with in this thread, just showing you how your post is written in context.
I think the Risk vs. Reward discussion is one worth having. Personally though, I don't think WAR is ever going to offer major rewards for players because there's just no situation where the risk will be extreme.
Losing your capital city is pretty bad though. Maybe for those who have experienced such a thing, the loss was punishment enough. I have yet to see it happen personally, though.
I stopped reading at nonsensical. dude, dont try and impress us with how smart you think you are. Why dont you print this post and show your teacher you use what she is teaching you in class on internet message boards ? She might be impressed, I am not.
Dang, and I so wanted to 'impress' you of all people. Oh well.
Well, I guess theres no Open RvR on right now. Tyvolous is posting again.
well, I need to go to work soon and most importantly, I play WAR and therefore it is kind of well...normal to hang out on the message boards of a game I play, to kind of you know, check in on the community and my fellow WAR players to see what new, what is interesting and going on in the game. Does that make any sense to you ? I play WAR, I visit WAR forums and WAR gaming sites. Let that sink in for a minute or two. You dont play WAR, but you dont have enough going on in the games you do supposedly enjoy to tear you away form the forums of a game you dont like. Maybe this helps you realize how silly it looks for people like you to spend so much time here. I am truly sorry grinding for gear in wow isnt interesting enough to tear you away from the WAR forums. But as I said, I play WAR...This is the WAR forums...ummm, get it ?
Here's the thing though man. I'm noticing quite a number of new accounts in this thread who don't yet really understand what this site is about. As Stradden has made very clear in the past mmorpg.com is NOT a fansite. These sub forums are not fan boards. He's admitted that even developers have contacted him in the past due to people being free to voice whatever opinion they have of a game without being moderated. He basically tells them "oh well, thats mmorpg".
If you have played a game and think it completely sucked you are more than welcome to make negative posts for years as long as you at least try to make half decent arguments and not just get a rise out of people. Doesn't matter if you still play a game or not.
Just thought it should be cleared up for the newer members that this site is not another WHA, VN's etc where negativity is moderated. If that kind of stuff truly pisses you off this may not be the community for you.
Originally posted by Zorndorf But the end conclusion stays the same: we are talking MMORPG's here.Originally posted by WSIMike
Originally posted by Zorndorf
Of course Wow came first. ... about 4 years. Or do you think otherwise ? LOL
Well, if we're talking World of Warcraft versus Warhammer Online, then yes.. WoW came first.
However, the point I'm sure Ty is making that the Warhammer IP was created long before Warcraft and, in fact, Warcraft borrows significantly from Warhammer. In that case, he is correct.
I didn't know IP was a ...game.
While your intended sarcasm is noted, did I ever say or imply that an IP = a game?
Given the context and deliberate separation from "game specific" and "IP specific" responses in my post, I find it impossible to believe you seriously think I was mistaking one for the other.
So, I give your little opening ditty a 'nice try' for blatant intellectual dishonesty.
This is a record so old it is becoming legitimate by old age even when it fails on all lines.
A record so old, yet is not necessarily known by everyone. There are still people who believe WoW started the MMORPG genre.
Yes, thank you. I know we are talking about MMORPGs here.
I was offering up each side of the equation because the answer to "which came first?" depends on whether you're talking about the MMORPGs themselves, or the lore they're based on.
But again, I think you knew that.
Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know that the Warhammer lore (IP) has been around a lot longer than Warcraft has, much less that Warcraft was derived from it. So my addressing each separately would actually be informative to such people.
So in this case, your sarcasm is unwarranted.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time.
Umm... Wow...
That is so far from the truth, I...
Assuming you've played it, have you ever actually died... at *all* in EvE?
You stand to lose any, or all, of the following:
- Your ship, which can cost millions of isk by itself.
- Your arsenal - weapons, shields, etc... which can also be quite a lot of isk.
- Your payload, if any... also possibly worth a pretty penny.
- If you're *really* unlucky... you can be pod killed, in which case, if your insurance isn't up to date... you lose potentially millions of SP.
So... the loss of potentially millions of isk and possibly accrued SP in EvE which all has to be replaced...
...compared to...
... the slight inconvenience of having to run back to where you died and jump back into the battle in WAR.
Someone who hasn't even played either game would see the difference there.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
"I wish I could read one post on this freakin forum where some WOW fanboi doesnt come in trying to hype up and defend Wowcrap as some incredible game."
I got as far as this first sentence in your original post.
People like Warcraft and people don't. If you want this post to take on ANY merit, don't "fanboi" it up in your opening sentence....
A whole lot of lose in the OP...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Well, if we're talking World of Warcraft versus Warhammer Online, then yes.. WoW came first.
However, the point I'm sure Ty is making that the Warhammer IP was created long before Warcraft and, in fact, Warcraft borrows significantly from Warhammer. In that case, he is correct.
I didn't know IP was a ...game.
This is a record so old it is becoming legitimate by old age even when it fails on all lines.
I know Warhammer lore and I know the other lore. They are as far apart as a fantasy setting with orcs and goblins can be. War is all about armies with their own identities battling with each other on an eternal battlefield in a world of War. (and Mythic pretty much screwed the IP lore by having only 2 factions).
The other game is about the evil within and the good and the bad are both within and out there with the others. Holy light heroes become devils and vice versa. The evil gets into a world and becomes the enemy with a face corrupting all races. There is only war between factions when the evil within wins.
I would even say Blizzard lends far more ideas from Middle Earth than the simplistic Warhammer lore.
The only thing I regret is that Games Workshop is doing a pretty bad job onto holding out on their IP's. One Warhammer product after another comes out and they all succeed in not even following the once famous IP. Mark of Chaos or War (where are the proper Army identities of the TT?).
Just have a look at the differences in comics between the two "IP"-s.
But the end conclusion stays the same: we are talking MMORPG's here.
Yes mythic only went with the 2 sides, to start. The entire design and development of the game, if you dont count any work done on imperator being reused for war was 3 years. Which was the challenge that they had set for themselves. To have added all the other factions and what not would have been a 10 year development cycle, at least to have made a game with the same amount of detail and polish. The game has been out for what, 3 months? What do you expect skaven, chaos dorfs, undead lords, and all the different chaos and empire factions?
How exactly has GW done poorly by the IP? you name 2, ONLY 2 games. Mark of Chaos, meh I'll cede the point on that one, the mechanics were shoddy but the story was rather cool. WaR is a decent game in its own right and I would wager with the way mythic is attacking problems and adding stuff it will be a great game in short order. It is already better than most of hte stuff out there, including wow. Why didn't you mention the games by THQ? The whole Dawn of War series has been excellent, Dawn of War 2 is looking awesome, and they are working on the 40k mmo. Before the recent resurrection of Warhammer gaming the only ones I can think of from earlier days are Bloodbowl and Space Hulk. Both which were exceptional games in their time.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Uh, only the orginal Dawn of War was something to speak of. The rest of the game's/expansions in the series is just one skirmish battle after another. That was what turned me off the entire Dawn of War series. The first one was great, the rest one big meh..Maybe they are better online, but I don't play rts' online except the original WC3 and it's expansion. It didn't last too long for me either allthough DoTA had me entertained for quite a while.
When speaking about the lore and what Mythic done with it in the mmo all it get from me is a long drawn-out sigh. 2 factions out of how many? Rock, scissor, paper approach to pvp...please. That's just shitfaced stupid and lazy. WAR got so many flaws holding it back from being one great mmo it's not even funny. First error is they trying to copy WoW. Yes, they did. I don't care what came first ip-wise, WAR still feel like WoW-lite to me, just with a pvp-patch.
Regarding fanbois hating on WAR, remember there is a big difference pointing out the flaws of a game, and outright hating it. I feel the OP, while this thread is his rant, missed the point alot of people point out when it comes to WAR. Being critical aint hating, never was and never will be.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
All just wow trolls tring to dog War cause they cant stand to see a game that might own wow so sad
Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union
ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."
Rofl, EQ2 *might* still own WoW but just like WAR that's not going to happen. Have you been living under a rock? The game released already you know. This kind of thing was interesting before release but at this point the game's released and the sales have long dropped below WoW's . It may be "owning" other MMO's, depending on what definition you give "to own" but clearly it's not owning WoW, at least not sales wise/subscriber wise.
No one has tried to "dog" on anything since 1986.
ill answer mary POPPINs question of why so many left early...
pretty simple really... same reason my friend left. They had no absolute clue about the game... from T1-T3 the game was pretty basic... same...not till you reach T4 is where the game got more complex...
Everybody who keeps saying Warhammer is like WOW is dead wrong and dont even understand this game. This game is NOT about scenarios... its about a mixture of Scenarios... PQs... Open RvR...
you need to do all 3 to win an area... not just one of them... ALL OF THEM... in T4... finally after long battles... the land of elves have been locked because ORDER won it. they overtook it and it becomes locked for the winners.
other area that was locked is now opened and ready to be taken... there are a few areas that can be worked on. OPEN RvR has improved immensely to encourage it more.
Of course with WOW brought impatient players. people trying to compare a POLISHED game of 4 years to a 3 month old released game is like comparing apples and oranges. whats funny is people are right if they are already starting to compare the two.. Mythic is doing something right.
yeah say about WOWs numbers all you want but it does not make for a great game. WOW is coming from the MOST POPULAR RTS game in history where its still played heavily in CHINA and asian countries along with many many other countries.
WOW brought in tons of new players to the Market. However, WOW is a fairly simplistic game. in WOWs first 3 months of release... they were still bug ridden... they didnt have much for pvp... hell at launch WOW didnt even have pvp. they made promises of adding in Sieging at launch... now 4 years later they add it in... yet nobody seemed to have mentioned that.
Mythic launched a game with far less bugs then WOW was at 3 months of release. but again, too many people were rushing to complain about warhammer thinking it was WOW. hell people were complaining there wasnt dancing. there wasnt a community because there wasnt a meeting place where they can sit and talk to others.. LOL
Warhammer is built around PVP... yes its not everybodies cup of tea. thats normal for any MMO. But to sit here and bash a game like warhammer after only 3-4 months of release? LOL lame. and trying to compare it to a 4 year old polished game.... even more lame.
my friend fell into the same attitude as others with this game. impatient to wait for fixes or even improvements to the game on POPULAR ADVICE from players. YES thats right. Mythic actually listened to people and did something about it.
people asked for more reasons to Open RvR. they gave it especially in their newest patch 1.1. THey have been quick to patch and fix things in game.
but like i said WOW has made a huge player base very impatient. the core of this game is great. I saw that. Mythic has delivered what they promised. Most dont see it though.
and they are continueing to add more and more. the game is turning out to be a great game. in time, they will add a free trial and it will bring others back.
Most of the comparing of Wow honestly, isn't being done by WoW fans. Take a look a the majority of posts on Warhammer forum here and elsewhere, like the OP. He is the one drawing a correlation between the two games and players. He didn't mention any other game other than AoC in passing, and not that AoC fans were flaming War. He's talking about WoW fans. Here, a War fan is doing the comparing.
There are a lot of War people who keep saying they like WAR better than WoW. Now again, that cool. But right there in there posts, THEY are comparing the two. Instead of simply saying "I like War for this/that" they would rather post usually "I like War cause it's not like Wow, it doesn't do this/this". Take a serious read on those posts. You'll see it. Most WoW fans stick to their own forums. Pre-release you had Warheads running into the WoW forums proclaiming gloom and doom with Warhammer's arrival, not the other way around.
Again, this is quite a few War fans who continue to draw the comparison. I don't even OWN WoTLK (nor am I buying it), but each time I mention something critical of WAR: "WoWboi, go back to your game" "LOTRO boy" lol. It's really comical that anytime someone says War has a problem, thats the tag. Even Paul Barnett, when you look back at interviews pre and post release, was taking countless shots at Blizzard at every chance. This was done to maximize the pub regarding Warhammer and to build some kind of rivalry, so people would think War was meant to rival Wow. Which is what Mythic intended all along, to rival Wow and steal customers. To not see this is really strange. You can go back and read all Paul Barnett's fighting words. Of course the Warheads (diehards) followed suit as anyone following would. Most Wow fans didn't even know Warhammer was a coming game, so why would they be threatened? They never heard of it or the Warhammer lore. ( I hadn't) I saw games like Warhammer 40k on PC, but never bought it and I certainly never played any of their tabletop dice games.
Warhammer is built around PvP yes. But thats part of the reason over 40% left... the actual fighting is ok, but there is no point to any of it. Just kill for no reason in a big mosh. There's no reason to fear death in this game. And if that's all their is when the PvE is boring and the crafting is a joke... what else would you do when the Pvp is rare and pointless when its actually going on?
In WoW, when you Pvp and die, they attach a death timer to you so you don't just respawn, run back to the battle and die again. Your'e some kind of ghostie thing who can't do anything but sit there. That time penatly increases the MORE you die, making you be more cautious.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
"TO MICHAEL!"
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
The dynamic in Eve is totally different that what you are comparing to Warhammer. Warheads like you Wyntermute claim we should not compare War to Wow because they are apples and oranges. Yet, here you are comparing two games (Eve and Warhammer) that have almost no similarities other than you try to kill someone else. War has way more in common with WoW than Eve, my friend.. right down to the UI they both share.
At least in Eve, there is a death penalty, as it should be some form of in PvP combat. Want to pick a fight with someone? Go up against another corporation? Fine. Just realize that if they blow your ship to smithereens, you will NOT be back in the battle helping your Corporation in 30 seconds. Heck, you won't even have a ship left. Unless you bought some insurance, you don't have anything at all left, save your skills from what I've read on it. Have you played Eve? Is this not the case? Again, I haven't but from what I read, you just made a misrepresentation and dumbing down of Eve's complex gameplay. I freely admit I've never played Eve, so I'm not going to pretend I know how that works. But I think I'm more right about the ship battle than you are. People don't just die, then run back with a new ship right away, like you do in Warhammer combat and join the battle.
So how is that comparable to Warhammer? Battles in Eve are way more thought out and not willy nilly zerg affairs from what I read. There is a considerable amount of risk in those. But you digress Wyntermute...
What risk, pray tell, IS there is Warhammer other than getting "pwned"? None. Please list it for me Wyntermute as I may have missed it during my playing time in Warhammer.
But if you MUST insist on comparing Eve to Warhammer, I would say that the one thing that both will have closest in common is going to be total subscription amounts than anything in gameplay or philosophy.
If youre getting "cheesed off", why are you responding? You do realize you don't have to, right?
"TO MICHAEL!"
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his uninsightful comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment, which of course won't happen since I have nothing against EvE as a game.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his valuable comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment. I won't provide that entertainment for him however.
Sorry Wintermute but Popinjay & Maxnrosy are correct. There really is no comparison between the PvP in EVE and WAR. In EVE you can fight battles that actually have a purpose to them which might have a strategical or financial reason behind them. In EVE you can ask the question "Why is this war being fought?" and there is a very good chance that you will get a sensible answer. The same cannot be said for WAR.
In WAR the PvP battles dont mean anything. There is nothing to be gained or lost by winning or losing a Keep which obviously is why many people dont bother with the open RvR and ultimately why people dont bother with the game period. There is absolutely no risk vs reward in WAR so whats the point?
The reason WAR gets compared to WoW so much is simply because Mythic blatantly tried to copy its "magic formulae" and failed. The similarities between the two games are unavoidable. It might have been more successful if the PvP was integrated into the core part of the game but it simply wasnt. WAR was NOT built around PvP. It was built around the same PvE game design that WoW was and then the PvP playpens were added as an optional method of gaining levels......because thats all WAR is about......gaining levels......just like WoW. There is no war in WAR.......there is merely yet another level grinding treadmill just like there is in any PvE game.......like WoW.
Ok, I haven't posted since page 2 of this jewel of a thread.
Sigh, I just read through all 14 pages or so....
So here is the recap,
First, Tyvolus please just stop posting, It's cool if you want to post in some other war thread, but in this particular thread, it is not a very good idea anymore, you have been owned by so many people so far that I would consider a new account and name change. Poppin, WSIMike and Almerel, pretty much have had you on lock down since you began posting.
I even went so far as to take every single post you made from this thread and stuck them into wordpad, so I can post them all at one time if needed. I must say though that if I did, it would only make matters worse for you.
PS Ty, Calling people frodo, telling people Arthus is their hero, and telling people they are ignorant, after some of the post you have made, is a very very poor decision.
Second, Poppin, your post are good and well articulated. They make sense, I am pretty sure everyone understands them. Only thing I would do different is to stop even typing back to Tyvulos. The guys doesn't get it and is not likely to anytime soon. Just leave him be, if he wants to float around the forums in a make believe world who are we to stop him.
Third, WSIMike, typically plays devils advocate in most forums, and can always counter a post. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad, he can counter it. Which makes for good debates which is what forums are typically about.
Last, Xhieron's post should really be the only post on a thread like this. It was the most well written and intelligent post I have read in the thread so far. Not only in the thread on mmorpg in a long time. Xhieron spoke the truth, and his points on WOW vs WAR are the true heart of the matter.
There I saved everyone 14 pages of reading.
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time. If you knew anything about WAR you'd know that the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Poopinjay, your posts contribute nothing of value to people who are interested in or play Warhammer. Any reason you post here other than to try and cheese people off?
sorry but when i read this i had to respond to the eve comment.
being an ex eve player all i can say is you have NO idea what your talking about. Eve has the biggest death penalty than any other game.
sure you lost your ship and die. this means you lost money, you lost your weps on the ship. most importantly it means you lost your implants on your character.
depending the ship. you can lose billions if it was a capital ship and up.
you just cannot replace that instantly and be in the war a few seconds after you die. you need to get a new clone, then get another ship ready for battle. you may be very far from where the battle is and 90% of the times its over before you can make it back.
the penalty is even harsher as 0.0 space is player owned. if the invaders gain sov. in the area and shut down or destroy your pos. (very hard) they can take it for themselves. which means you allience and corperation to a huge monetary hit. lost a secotr of space to get the materials to make ships ect. the impact is Huge .
dont you ever dare try to compare the pentaly of war with eve without even knowing jack about it. war you can keep going. eve you can only go as much as you have in your wallet. Wars in eve are not only won by ship battles, you need to build and sustain an economical might in order to even think about attacking another allience. no money, no politics = no war in eve, its all player driven
There's no need to get upset.
I know that there is a lot more to PvP in EvE than just getting back a ship. It's an oversimplification, in the same way that the poster has oversimplified the relevance of death in WAR. That's why I said "if you are correct..." because the point I was trying to make was that he WASN'T correct.
BTW, in faction wars, and even in 0.0 wars, it doesn't happen all the time, but I specifically HAVE seen people jump right back into the EXACT same ship after getting one blown up. Players in large 0.0 alliances are specifically instructed to have backups of their ships if they know they are going into protracted wars. (I fought in the recent North v. BoB wars for a short time but got weary of the metagaming)
I realize War and EvE are two quite different games and respect each for what it brings to the table, don't worry.
EDIT - I see that Poopinjay has added his uninsightful comments in an effort to fan the flames of what he hopes will become a EvE vs. War flame war for his entertainment, which of course won't happen since I have nothing against EvE as a game.
not that i got upset, but you do have to admit you did not explain in that post popin was oversimplifying wars pvp mechanics and you were using eve as an example . If any eve player comes in and reads your post they most likely would have reacted the same. (btw i was part of the bruce allience a while back, we had many skirmishes agaisnt bob on our outter rim of our territory, getting back did take a while)
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
This is the best advice I've gotten in awhile. Although I knew better, I couldn't resist. I guess I proved that old adage "Who's more foolish.. a fool or the man who argues with one."
Shame on me. I'll try to get back to discussing facts and ignoring people who don't.
Thanks for the compass Sky..
"TO MICHAEL!"
Except you forget the fact that 8 out of 10 users on this site will click "Quote" on the OP no matter the length of it and no matter if they have read it or not and start projectile vomiting onto their keyboard and hope it makes sense. In a not-so-rare occasion they will also hit up dictionary.com so they can use superflous fluff words (kind of like I did with superflous - catch that irony?) to make themselves appear well-read. Appear.
You did save me from reading it though, I was almost bored enough to read it.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
you didnt offer cookies and milk tho
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Here's what he said:
The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork... It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
Here's what I said:
...the mere act of dieing itself is usually what changes the balance of fights. Look at the Nordenwatch Fort scenario, as an example, the team with less skill or teamwork (other things being equal) is the one that starts losing people first. Sure, those people can run back into the fight, but it will be too late. Their group is likely to have lost the fight and actually ends up having to play "catch up" the rest of the game which is a severe handicap.
That situation is just as true in open RvR. Being able to run back into the fight is meaningless if the strength/synergy of your group has been dismantled.
Now.
Losing a fight/skirmish/keep IS the consequence. If you play EvE, that might not be enough consequence for you, but that IS a consequence.
I'm not going to argue you about the "why is this war being fought" question because that's not what I was addressing.
No Wyntermute, this is what I said that you quoted in box:
And this was your response to that:
Now as you read this, you don't see your post as inflammatory, incorrect and misrepresentive? And no, I am not trying to start some "war" between factions lol. You made this statement.. I didn't even bring Eve into the picture here. Can you please keep things in the proper order so a 'discussion' can happen other than "he said" "I said"?
This is not meant as a flame to you so you can replace someone else I was yakking with in this thread, just showing you how your post is written in context.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Another pointless post by you.
Read my last post.
I think the Risk vs. Reward discussion is one worth having. Personally though, I don't think WAR is ever going to offer major rewards for players because there's just no situation where the risk will be extreme.
Losing your capital city is pretty bad though. Maybe for those who have experienced such a thing, the loss was punishment enough. I have yet to see it happen personally, though.
Dang, and I so wanted to 'impress' you of all people. Oh well.
Well, I guess theres no Open RvR on right now. Tyvolous is posting again.
well, I need to go to work soon and most importantly, I play WAR and therefore it is kind of well...normal to hang out on the message boards of a game I play, to kind of you know, check in on the community and my fellow WAR players to see what new, what is interesting and going on in the game. Does that make any sense to you ? I play WAR, I visit WAR forums and WAR gaming sites. Let that sink in for a minute or two. You dont play WAR, but you dont have enough going on in the games you do supposedly enjoy to tear you away form the forums of a game you dont like. Maybe this helps you realize how silly it looks for people like you to spend so much time here. I am truly sorry grinding for gear in wow isnt interesting enough to tear you away from the WAR forums. But as I said, I play WAR...This is the WAR forums...ummm, get it ?
Here's the thing though man. I'm noticing quite a number of new accounts in this thread who don't yet really understand what this site is about. As Stradden has made very clear in the past mmorpg.com is NOT a fansite. These sub forums are not fan boards. He's admitted that even developers have contacted him in the past due to people being free to voice whatever opinion they have of a game without being moderated. He basically tells them "oh well, thats mmorpg".
If you have played a game and think it completely sucked you are more than welcome to make negative posts for years as long as you at least try to make half decent arguments and not just get a rise out of people. Doesn't matter if you still play a game or not.
Just thought it should be cleared up for the newer members that this site is not another WHA, VN's etc where negativity is moderated. If that kind of stuff truly pisses you off this may not be the community for you.
Well, if we're talking World of Warcraft versus Warhammer Online, then yes.. WoW came first.
However, the point I'm sure Ty is making that the Warhammer IP was created long before Warcraft and, in fact, Warcraft borrows significantly from Warhammer. In that case, he is correct.
I didn't know IP was a ...game.
While your intended sarcasm is noted, did I ever say or imply that an IP = a game?
Given the context and deliberate separation from "game specific" and "IP specific" responses in my post, I find it impossible to believe you seriously think I was mistaking one for the other.
So, I give your little opening ditty a 'nice try' for blatant intellectual dishonesty.
This is a record so old it is becoming legitimate by old age even when it fails on all lines.
A record so old, yet is not necessarily known by everyone. There are still people who believe WoW started the MMORPG genre.
Yes, thank you. I know we are talking about MMORPGs here.
I was offering up each side of the equation because the answer to "which came first?" depends on whether you're talking about the MMORPGs themselves, or the lore they're based on.
But again, I think you knew that.
Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know that the Warhammer lore (IP) has been around a lot longer than Warcraft has, much less that Warcraft was derived from it. So my addressing each separately would actually be informative to such people.
So in this case, your sarcasm is unwarranted.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
War is stupid in this regard. Run to zerg a keep, die. Meh, I'll just run back again. Dead. Dang, Ill just run back again right away. (or did they change this now?) On both sides this is the case. It's really a no brainer. The game is built on PvP, yet they can't get the basic idea that there should be some consequence to your lack of playing skill or teamwork. This is another reason people leave. It gets so old doing this over/over and no challenge to die and run back. Read around.. biggest complaint about the fighting.
If you are correct, then EvE is stupid in this regard as well. You die, reclone and run back in a new ship. People do it all the time.
Umm... Wow...
That is so far from the truth, I...
Assuming you've played it, have you ever actually died... at *all* in EvE?
You stand to lose any, or all, of the following:
- Your ship, which can cost millions of isk by itself.
- Your arsenal - weapons, shields, etc... which can also be quite a lot of isk.
- Your payload, if any... also possibly worth a pretty penny.
- If you're *really* unlucky... you can be pod killed, in which case, if your insurance isn't up to date... you lose potentially millions of SP.
So... the loss of potentially millions of isk and possibly accrued SP in EvE which all has to be replaced...
...compared to...
... the slight inconvenience of having to run back to where you died and jump back into the battle in WAR.
Someone who hasn't even played either game would see the difference there.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops