OK. After that very dark look into Real world happenings and compareing it to WOW. Lets start this back up into a regular conversation. WoW is a fun game i mean if 11 mill players are playing it. I mean is brings a few things to the table. Not alot of complicated fetures for the more heavy gamer but it dos have its perks. I would like to see WoW go down and for one simple reason or at least my reason. I think they lost what they once had. It was a fun game that focused on myth an history of their older warcraft games. I have to say it was a buzz kill to see bikes in WoW. i love bikes hell iam gonna get one in the next few months. I honestly thing they just pushed it a bit far. Most gamers you talk to that hate wow just dont find it hard core. This is true is a easy game to play with alot of grinding lol.
I found the 1st Xpack kind of fun. It kinda killed the game for me but not to the point were it would kill the game for me. Its like they tryed to mix future and Myth times. It hit well to alot but to some killed it. I still played. then the 3rd Epack acome out and killed it for me. i Really hated the deathknights. But comeing back to my point. I dont care what brings Wows numbers down. It could be a new blizzard MMO to a new SOE MMO. Just think it would be a frsh air. An if Blizzard dos launch a new MMO we can bitch about that and WOW! haha J/K. Any way Great job to blizzard for makeing a game that has a huge hold on the market.
McDonalds is the best place to buy cheeseburgers cause they have 11.5 millions subs
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
McDonalds is the best place to buy cheeseburgers cause they have 11.5 millions subs
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
Can't wait
Or you can just leave the comparisons to fast food restaurants. McDonalds is more popular than Burger King, Wendys, Jack in the Box,Taco Bell, Carls Jr etc.etc.etc. That would be much more accurate than comparing a fast food joint to an upscale restaurant since we are comparing MMOs and not "MMOs to Sinlge Player Games."
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
4 and a half years and the builders in Westfall still cant patch the holes in the inn in Sentinel Hill, I dont know about the rest of you but if the builders took 4 and a half years to patch 2 holes in my house Id fire them and get better ones. =P
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Originally posted by djnexus Originally posted by lornj hell, i guess 11.5 million people cant be wrong.
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
.....as oppose to those that blindly spew the same anti-wow lines over and over again on wow forums to try and fit in with the crowd i guess......
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
.....as oppose to those that blindly spew the same anti-wow lines over and over again on wow forums to try and fit in with the crowd i guess......
I'll never understand why people who hate a game so passionately make a point to frequent the forum of that very game and tell people there how much they hate it. It's not like any of us give a damn and they are only making themselves look like whiny children the more they do it.
Originally posted by Orthedos Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it. Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos?
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one).
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all.
I've quit four times already... I always came back to my old account which I had for YEARS and it had some sentimental value if you'd believe me. I decided to sell since after so many years it was worth a fortune (High Warlord rank in BC is worth a hundred dollars all itself and the gear I had (old gear such as tabards and unique items) was worth another hundred, also with the fact it was 70) but yeah my point is all the money I got (450) from selling my account I'd pay double just to have it back. I actually tried to find the person I sold it to and buy it back (Its been a couple months (sixish) so I've had no luck). So here I am trying to get a new WoW account because I miss the game so much but hate leveling from 1-80 just to find out I hate it again. Its painful. I just want to quit and not want to come back but it ain't gonna happen >< Thats why I hate WoW. Its to addicting
Also Blizzard is to rich. The day I went onto a website about buying accounts (I was window shopping I have no money at the moment) I got a World of Warcraft calander thingy in the mail o.o they know to much. I'm serious day I went onto a site about buying accounts I got a WoW calander thingy.
Marketing brings people to a game. Polish and completion keep people in a game.
The basic truth of it. Retention rates may not be the highest but they're unlikely to be far off from other MMO's.
Marketing only helps you get people *to* your game. Not to keep them.
Look at Aoc and WAR, Argueably the 2 games that had the biggest initial influx of players ever yet they both dropped significantly *after* people got to actually play the game. (Not sure AoC but WAR did significant pre-release hype, Paul barnett's youtube's etc was a new way of marketing and very successful)
Also don;tforget, things like TV advertising for WoW with their famous people adds didn't start till a year or so after release, at which point WoW was already a smashing success by any MMO standards.
If for some reason people claim WOW 's reention is incredibly low in comparison to other MMO's then even more kudos to Blizzard for outselling other MMO's by another few factors more than they already have.
It's pure and simple, if the game sucked, this many people wouldn't stick with it. Most people I know played for at least a year or so. People in WAR and AoC gave it up in under 3-6 months. (for war of the 750k that bought it 450k stopped playing in 3 months)
Originally posted by Orthedos Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it. Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos?
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one).
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all.
Well, I doubt any game is good enough to keep the same players 4 years after it launched. Any game becomes old and boring after a period of time. That is a downside to any game, especially one that is quest based. Once you run out of quests and story, what else is there besides rerolling another character ? I know of know one who hasn't quite their favorite game from time to time because it got boring and they needed a break. I'm sure that will happen to me by the time I reach level 80(if STO hasn't already taking me away from it by then). I play only a few hours every couple of nights so my leveling is slower than others.For me, it's just a game and not some world that I choose to live in.
Also, advertisement only brings people to the game, it doesn't do anything else. WARHAMMER did good advertising that got people to try the game, but once people saw horrible the game was, word spread quick. No amount of advertising will help it now. And that game is less than a year old.
Originally posted by Orthedos Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it. Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again. Oh really and you know I need to study? Or maybe I am teaching that now?
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos? A lot of games have strong promotions behind, a lot of products have failed despite huge propaganda. Like I said you can sell an empty bottle once to fool a client, but you cannot keep him coming back to buy the empty bottle for 4 years. If you cannot understand that you need that 101 not me.
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one). You do not like it, I understand and respect, but that does not extrapolate into a universal view.
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all. That is a business secret. I do not pretend to know. I do believe that there is a sizable number of old clients and accounts. At least the few accounts of my family all dated from first week. That is not a representative sample.
A lot of other people here have already given you the answer. Marketing is the tool to raise customer awareness and interest in looking at your product, and maybe trying it out (free samples in supermarket, trial accounts in games). If your food sucks, free tasting will only drive your clients away. If the game is crappy, ppl might be fooled to buying it, but they will not sub. That is why I said: you can sell an empty bottle once, but not sustain it for 4 years, however well your ad is.
"With more than 11.5 million monthly subscribers,World of Warcraft is currently the world's largest MMORPG in those terms, and holds the Guinness World Record for the most popular MMORPG.In April 2008, World of Warcraft was estimated to hold 62% of the massively multiplayer online game (MMOG) market." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_warcraft Beat that with a stick.
I think I missed the point of this thread... ?
I thought it was obvious but I'll state it more clearly. World of Warcraft is 4 1/2 years old and is still the top MMORPG on the market. I think that's pretty amazing.For all the bashing that the haters of this game have done(and still do), the game is a still going strong with no signs of slowing down.
One day, there will be a game that will come along and knock it off it's perch. It is inevitable because all good things come to and end. But for this game to still be the top dog 4 1/2 years after its release is pretty amazing.
Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it.
Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
INITIAL success. Initial. WoW started off big because they advertised the hell out of it. They still advertise it a lot, I've already seen 4 WoW commercials during this baseball game I'm watching and it's only the 7th inning. The game is very polished and has quite a bit of content. That all made WoW the success it is. The lack of competition and continued advertising has kept WoW the success it is.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
If they haven't figured it out, then they aren't aware of it. But none the less, it isn't a negative view, it is a very easy observation. What does WoW endgame the entire game consist of? Leveling is mostly running the same quest with a different title or dialogue over and over until you hit max level, MAYBE running an instance or two on the way. End game consists of running the same raid over and over again until you get enough gear to be able to go to the next raid to run it over and over again to repeat the process. PvP is running the same instance/arena over and over again until you have enough points for the next piece of gear. The majority of WoW is very repetative, which is where the treadmill analogy comes from.
Just because I can't believe people find enjoyment in doing the same thing over and over doesn't mean I think they are wrong for doing so, I just have trouble believeing it. I played WoW for a while and enjoyed it a lot, but the things I enjoyed the most weren't the things scripted by Blizzard. They were the open World PvP that I had to find and create myself. But it really didn't take me long to see the big picture when it came to gear, and realize how truely pointless I found it. I didn't like the idea of continually haveing to grind something in order to keep my character the best it could be.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates.
Ok, here you are COMPLETELY wrong. MMOs are a HUGE investment. 10/20 million dollars doesn't buy you crap any more, which is why Darkfall is in the condition it is in. Companies are investing a large lump of money into making an MMO, and with doing so they are often afraid to take risk. The fear of risks is the reason you see the term "WoW Clone" spouted so much. Instead of trying something new and risky, these companies are looking at WoW, seeing what was successful, and basically rehashing it with a new skin, story, and title. These games try to be WoW, and take WoW's subscribers, but fail to beat WoW at what makes WoW so popular, and the games fall to mediocre subscriber levels at best.
Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I said it isn't the best product on the market, and I also said it doesn't have any competition. Both are viable and not contradictory. If we are talking quality and polish, I think WoW is the best on the market. If we want to talk gameplay mechanics, design structures, implementations, I don't think WoW is the best product. But that is just my opinion. I think there are other games that provide a deeper, more complex, more fulfilling experience then WoW, and I value those more than quality and polish, but some others may not. But the games I've found to be better than WoW have been out since before or right around when WoW came out. Nothing since WoW came out has been competition at all.
But of course this is biased, it's my personal opinion, can't be more biased than that.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
McDonalds is the best place to buy cheeseburgers cause they have 11.5 millions subs
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
Can't wait
Or you can just leave the comparisons to fast food restaurants. McDonalds is more popular than Burger King, Wendys, Jack in the Box,Taco Bell, Carls Jr etc.etc.etc. That would be much more accurate than comparing a fast food joint to an upscale restaurant since we are comparing MMOs and not "MMOs to Sinlge Player Games."
McDonalds is more popular than Burger kings ... in US.
KFC has an easier start in China than McDonalds.
Blah Blah Blah.
WoW has a stronger following than most games in most of the Western countries. In Asia, it does face quite some competition and the traditional Chinese version (from Taiwan) is not selling well now. The Chinese version in China is so hacked into pieces, quite a lot of gamers are playing on private servers.
As for the comparison of WoW to McDonalds I failed to respond. I never eat McD, I never understand why I need to go into McD, except when I am babysitting. Their children playground is nice, and free :P
Originally posted by Orthedos Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it. Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again. Oh really and you know I need to study? Or maybe I am teaching that now?
Hello, I'm Elvis nice to meet you.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos? A lot of games have strong promotions behind, a lot of products have failed despite huge propaganda. Like I said you can sell an empty bottle once to fool a client, but you cannot keep him coming back to buy the empty bottle for 4 years. If you cannot understand that you need that 101 not me.
See below. If petty promos are the extent of your marketing reach i don't think 101 can help you at this point. And who still uses propaganda as a term? lol.
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one). You do not like it, I understand and respect, but that does not extrapolate into a universal view.
What universal view did I try to impress on you, please explain? Did it not bring people to the the genre? Do people not continuously say "it looks like wow" "it isn't as good as wow" "it's a wow clone" etc etc?
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all. That is a business secret. I do not pretend to know. I do believe that there is a sizable number of old clients and accounts. At least the few accounts of my family all dated from first week. That is not a representative sample.
Obviously, yet you (and me) being on these forums represent a very biased sample unto ourselves. Most of the people that do play WoW never post a single item in their lives. Those are the people I'd be interested in knowing more about if I could.
A lot of other people here have already given you the answer. Marketing is the tool to raise customer awareness and interest in looking at your product, and maybe trying it out (free samples in supermarket, trial accounts in games). If your food sucks, free tasting will only drive your clients away. If the game is crappy, ppl might be fooled to buying it, but they will not sub. That is why I said: you can sell an empty bottle once, but not sustain it for 4 years, however well your ad is.
That's what promotion does. Promotion is but one tool, and it's main intent is to get people to try something out. Granted if it's horrible most people won't go back to it. However, advertising, PR and other tools work in other ways. Ex. Mr. Jack Average never played an MMO in his life but sees the advertisement for wow and thinks "oh elves, cool!" then he sees an article on the FT saying how wow has the population of an average northern country and is one of the most succesfull games in gaming history. His interesed is now piqued. He goes online and finds out he can try the game for free or whatever. He has nothing to compare it to and as has been said the game is polished and large and chances are he will keep playing for a few months. And then?
You CAN sell an empty bottle over an over it has been done time and time again. People buy brands not products and WoW is a huge gaming brand nowadays.
Want to talk about brands? Think Coke. Coke has consistently lost blind and double blind taste tests to Pepsi for the better part of a century yet mysteriously they are still number one. Coke's biggest marketing mistake was to launch New Coke back in the 80s. How so? It did better than coke (AND pepsi) in blind tastes yet when it launched it almost folded the company. They went back to regular coke... Coke is the world's most recognized brand. See the link? (I drink Coke)
You totally missed the point regarding the kind of promotion wow did compared to other MMOs... especially when it was done and to whom and you understimate the extent of their marketing machine.
Also, you miss the most important factor in WoW's mass market appeal: the lowest common denominator effect. A friend of mine always says (quite harshly but I've found it to be true) "Your product and communication are only as successful as the dumbest consumer it is directed to" How does this relate to in gaming terms? WoW is easy, it's plug and play, you suffer no penalties for failure (besides time spent), you have nothing to worry about besides levelling and your gear, you actually get REWARDED for failure in pvp, etc etc. In other words it's free fun with no consequences. There isn't alot of that in the world!
That said, we could sit here and write a book as to why WoW is so successful, i doubt even Blizzard truly knows. It's one of those brands that MADE it, being "first" on the market maybe helped, marketing surely did, and it's low denominator appeal surely does also but it's hard to really say what, where, why.
Finally, I didn't bash the game I said I don't like where it's at now. I give it credit where it's due and it entertained me for years. I do believe though that many of the games out there offer a much more immersive and rewarding (in the sense of working for something to get it) than WoW does.
"Also, you miss the most important factor in WoW's mass market appeal: the lowest common denominator effect. A friend of mine always says (quite harshly but I've found it to be true) "Your product and communication are only as successful as the dumbest consumer it is directed to" How does this relate to in gaming terms? WoW is easy, it's plug and play, you suffer no penalties for failure (besides time spent), you have nothing to worry about besides levelling and your gear, you actually get REWARDED for failure in pvp, etc etc. In other words it's free fun with no consequences. There isn't alot of that in the world!"
Put wow in relation to other mmo's of the current generation and then make that relative to games in *any* other genre and the difference is so small it's hardly even mentionable. No MMO's these days are significantly different from what you descibre.
A lot of other people here have already given you the answer. Marketing is the tool to raise customer awareness and interest in looking at your product, and maybe trying it out (free samples in supermarket, trial accounts in games). If your food sucks, free tasting will only drive your clients away. If the game is crappy, ppl might be fooled to buying it, but they will not sub. That is why I said: you can sell an empty bottle once, but not sustain it for 4 years, however well your ad is.
West Wing fans will remember this line:
"Do you know why the New Coke marketing campaign failed? Because no on liked New Coke. The movies were bad. If they were just average I could help you , but they weren't They were JUST BAD."
if WoW was a bad game it would have gotten so large and sustained its population. Nuff said no amount of marketing would do such a thing if the game itself was terrible
i dont think wow is that bad of a game if its #1 in the world. But i have to admit when i was playing it it got boring unless i had a friend or went to pvp. but the game is still pretty cool, i think that it gets good after lvl 30 or so because its pretty slow from any part before that
i think blizzard was pretty crafty with their advertisements. ive never seen any other mmo get that much air time on tv than WoW. hell even southpark did an episode on it. you cant beat that kind of publicity at all. im sure with all of that advertisement, it made people want to try the game and see what it is all about. i think other mmo companies should take notes on this strategy.
The problem with Blizzard announcing these numbers is that when WoW begins its inevitable decline (it's going to happen sometime people), as the old saying goes, the taller they are, the harder they fall. Say for example Blizzard lost half of its fanbase who moved to the new Blizzard MMO. That's a loss of almost 6 million people. Harsh. But, that's still almost 6 times the subscriber base of its nearest competitor, which last I checked was a tossup between Lineage 2 and FFXI. So, Blizzard has dug its own grave, for any loss is going to be seen as catastrophic doom, when in fact the game is doing stupidly well even then compared to other MMO's, where the baseline by industry standards is that gaining 100k subscribers is considered a successful business move. Many operate below this number.
If all 11+ million people left tomorrow, and no one played at all, it wouldn't be doom. It would be, simply put, the most successful game of all time (in terms of $$ generated). Dug it's own grave? If they had 6 million subscribers?
That doesn't even make sense. I mean if you got them all in a room, no cameras, no recording equipment of any kind, gave them a few cocktails, and then asked, "Can you believe that you still have 11 mill subs after this long?", they would all say "No, it's insane. We can't believe no one has made a game as good as ours yet to steal our subs."
How many games (even on consoles) you know that keeps SELLING after ... 4.5 years ? Week of March 22 - 29, 2009*
TITLE - PUBLISHER - AVERAGE PRICE
1) World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King - Activision Blizzard - $33
2) Empire: Total War - Sega - $33
3) The Sims 2 Double Deluxe - Electronic Arts - $20
4) World of Warcraft: Battle Chest - Activision Blizzard - $33
5) Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II - THQ - $47
6) Spore - Electronic Arts - $47
7) Mystery Case Files: Return to Ravenhearst - Activision Blizzard - $19
8) World of Warcraft - Activision Blizzard - $20
9) The Sims 2 Apartment Life - Electronic Arts - $20
10) Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway - Ubisoft - $13 Do you see Bioshock? Do you see Call of Duty 5? Do you see FAll out 3? The above three games were recently launched. Every other video game lasts about 6 months (at the most). And add this top 10 in on online games being played in our westeren world. www.xfire.com A sample of ... 200.000 on line PC players (and sampled 24/hours on 24 Hours). --- ---> Would YOU play 15 Euros a month just to listen to Brittney Spears ::)))) ---- That's the difference.
What's amazing to me is that not only the Expansion still being the top seller almost a year from release, but the original game itself still selling 4 1/2 years afterward in the top ten. No other MMO can say that. Usually they have a big lauch and their boxes fill the stores, then a year later the majority are never seen from again. Try and find a box for older games like Everquest 2,Matrix,SWG, hell any SOE game will do.
Comments
OK. After that very dark look into Real world happenings and compareing it to WOW. Lets start this back up into a regular conversation. WoW is a fun game i mean if 11 mill players are playing it. I mean is brings a few things to the table. Not alot of complicated fetures for the more heavy gamer but it dos have its perks. I would like to see WoW go down and for one simple reason or at least my reason. I think they lost what they once had. It was a fun game that focused on myth an history of their older warcraft games. I have to say it was a buzz kill to see bikes in WoW. i love bikes hell iam gonna get one in the next few months. I honestly thing they just pushed it a bit far. Most gamers you talk to that hate wow just dont find it hard core. This is true is a easy game to play with alot of grinding lol.
I found the 1st Xpack kind of fun. It kinda killed the game for me but not to the point were it would kill the game for me. Its like they tryed to mix future and Myth times. It hit well to alot but to some killed it. I still played. then the 3rd Epack acome out and killed it for me. i Really hated the deathknights. But comeing back to my point. I dont care what brings Wows numbers down. It could be a new blizzard MMO to a new SOE MMO. Just think it would be a frsh air. An if Blizzard dos launch a new MMO we can bitch about that and WOW! haha J/K. Any way Great job to blizzard for makeing a game that has a huge hold on the market.
CENTER]
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
US PC Charts March 22-29: The Lich King (http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6207528.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;1 )
lich king is back on top ... and vanillia WoW is still in the top 10.. 4.5 years after release. Now thats just crazy
Week of March 22 - 29, 2009*
TITLE - PUBLISHER - AVERAGE PRICE
1) World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King - Activision Blizzard - $33
2) Empire: Total War - Sega - $33
3) The Sims 2 Double Deluxe - Electronic Arts - $20
4) World of Warcraft: Battle Chest - Activision Blizzard - $33
5) Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II - THQ - $47
6) Spore - Electronic Arts - $47
7) Mystery Case Files: Return to Ravenhearst - Activision Blizzard - $19
8) World of Warcraft - Activision Blizzard - $20
9) The Sims 2 Apartment Life - Electronic Arts - $20
10) Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway - Ubisoft - $13
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
Can't wait
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
Can't wait
Or you can just leave the comparisons to fast food restaurants. McDonalds is more popular than Burger King, Wendys, Jack in the Box,Taco Bell, Carls Jr etc.etc.etc. That would be much more accurate than comparing a fast food joint to an upscale restaurant since we are comparing MMOs and not "MMOs to Sinlge Player Games."
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
4 and a half years and the builders in Westfall still cant patch the holes in the inn in Sentinel Hill, I dont know about the rest of you but if the builders took 4 and a half years to patch 2 holes in my house Id fire them and get better ones. =P
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
.....as oppose to those that blindly spew the same anti-wow lines over and over again on wow forums to try and fit in with the crowd i guess......
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
People are just following the norm of what everyones playing, they see the latest ozzy wow commercial and that just fuels it more. Im glad i quit playing, its way to easy.
.....as oppose to those that blindly spew the same anti-wow lines over and over again on wow forums to try and fit in with the crowd i guess......
I'll never understand why people who hate a game so passionately make a point to frequent the forum of that very game and tell people there how much they hate it. It's not like any of us give a damn and they are only making themselves look like whiny children the more they do it.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos?
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one).
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all.
Marketing brings people to a game. Polish and completion keep people in a game.
I hate WoW...
I've quit four times already... I always came back to my old account which I had for YEARS and it had some sentimental value if you'd believe me. I decided to sell since after so many years it was worth a fortune (High Warlord rank in BC is worth a hundred dollars all itself and the gear I had (old gear such as tabards and unique items) was worth another hundred, also with the fact it was 70) but yeah my point is all the money I got (450) from selling my account I'd pay double just to have it back. I actually tried to find the person I sold it to and buy it back (Its been a couple months (sixish) so I've had no luck). So here I am trying to get a new WoW account because I miss the game so much but hate leveling from 1-80 just to find out I hate it again. Its painful. I just want to quit and not want to come back but it ain't gonna happen >< Thats why I hate WoW. Its to addicting
Also Blizzard is to rich. The day I went onto a website about buying accounts (I was window shopping I have no money at the moment) I got a World of Warcraft calander thingy in the mail o.o they know to much. I'm serious day I went onto a site about buying accounts I got a WoW calander thingy.
I'm right. Get use to it.
The basic truth of it. Retention rates may not be the highest but they're unlikely to be far off from other MMO's.
Marketing only helps you get people *to* your game. Not to keep them.
Look at Aoc and WAR, Argueably the 2 games that had the biggest initial influx of players ever yet they both dropped significantly *after* people got to actually play the game. (Not sure AoC but WAR did significant pre-release hype, Paul barnett's youtube's etc was a new way of marketing and very successful)
Also don;tforget, things like TV advertising for WoW with their famous people adds didn't start till a year or so after release, at which point WoW was already a smashing success by any MMO standards.
If for some reason people claim WOW 's reention is incredibly low in comparison to other MMO's then even more kudos to Blizzard for outselling other MMO's by another few factors more than they already have.
It's pure and simple, if the game sucked, this many people wouldn't stick with it. Most people I know played for at least a year or so. People in WAR and AoC gave it up in under 3-6 months. (for war of the 750k that bought it 450k stopped playing in 3 months)
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos?
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one).
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all.
Well, I doubt any game is good enough to keep the same players 4 years after it launched. Any game becomes old and boring after a period of time. That is a downside to any game, especially one that is quest based. Once you run out of quests and story, what else is there besides rerolling another character ? I know of know one who hasn't quite their favorite game from time to time because it got boring and they needed a break. I'm sure that will happen to me by the time I reach level 80(if STO hasn't already taking me away from it by then). I play only a few hours every couple of nights so my leveling is slower than others.For me, it's just a game and not some world that I choose to live in.
Also, advertisement only brings people to the game, it doesn't do anything else. WARHAMMER did good advertising that got people to try the game, but once people saw horrible the game was, word spread quick. No amount of advertising will help it now. And that game is less than a year old.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again. Oh really and you know I need to study? Or maybe I am teaching that now?
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos? A lot of games have strong promotions behind, a lot of products have failed despite huge propaganda. Like I said you can sell an empty bottle once to fool a client, but you cannot keep him coming back to buy the empty bottle for 4 years. If you cannot understand that you need that 101 not me.
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one). You do not like it, I understand and respect, but that does not extrapolate into a universal view.
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all. That is a business secret. I do not pretend to know. I do believe that there is a sizable number of old clients and accounts. At least the few accounts of my family all dated from first week. That is not a representative sample.
A lot of other people here have already given you the answer. Marketing is the tool to raise customer awareness and interest in looking at your product, and maybe trying it out (free samples in supermarket, trial accounts in games). If your food sucks, free tasting will only drive your clients away. If the game is crappy, ppl might be fooled to buying it, but they will not sub. That is why I said: you can sell an empty bottle once, but not sustain it for 4 years, however well your ad is.
I think I missed the point of this thread... ?
I thought it was obvious but I'll state it more clearly. World of Warcraft is 4 1/2 years old and is still the top MMORPG on the market. I think that's pretty amazing.For all the bashing that the haters of this game have done(and still do), the game is a still going strong with no signs of slowing down.
One day, there will be a game that will come along and knock it off it's perch. It is inevitable because all good things come to and end. But for this game to still be the top dog 4 1/2 years after its release is pretty amazing.
Ahh, it was an "I'm going to point out the obvious" thread. Got ya. Can I join in? I'm amazed that there hasn't been a good MMO released since WoW. I'm amazed people continue to run on that gear tredmill for 4 and 1/2 years. Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is great for what it is, but I'm still amazed that people haven't figured out that the game is nothing more than a gear tredmill, or if they have, that they actually enjoy it.
Frankly, I think WoW's initial success was due to advertising and polish, but since then it's continued success is due to lack of competition, incredibly high accessability, and simply because it's popular so everyone plays it, even if it isn't the best product on the market. Like Itunes, or something along those lines.
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
INITIAL success. Initial. WoW started off big because they advertised the hell out of it. They still advertise it a lot, I've already seen 4 WoW commercials during this baseball game I'm watching and it's only the 7th inning. The game is very polished and has quite a bit of content. That all made WoW the success it is. The lack of competition and continued advertising has kept WoW the success it is.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
If they haven't figured it out, then they aren't aware of it. But none the less, it isn't a negative view, it is a very easy observation. What does WoW endgame the entire game consist of? Leveling is mostly running the same quest with a different title or dialogue over and over until you hit max level, MAYBE running an instance or two on the way. End game consists of running the same raid over and over again until you get enough gear to be able to go to the next raid to run it over and over again to repeat the process. PvP is running the same instance/arena over and over again until you have enough points for the next piece of gear. The majority of WoW is very repetative, which is where the treadmill analogy comes from.
Just because I can't believe people find enjoyment in doing the same thing over and over doesn't mean I think they are wrong for doing so, I just have trouble believeing it. I played WoW for a while and enjoyed it a lot, but the things I enjoyed the most weren't the things scripted by Blizzard. They were the open World PvP that I had to find and create myself. But it really didn't take me long to see the big picture when it came to gear, and realize how truely pointless I found it. I didn't like the idea of continually haveing to grind something in order to keep my character the best it could be.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates.
Ok, here you are COMPLETELY wrong. MMOs are a HUGE investment. 10/20 million dollars doesn't buy you crap any more, which is why Darkfall is in the condition it is in. Companies are investing a large lump of money into making an MMO, and with doing so they are often afraid to take risk. The fear of risks is the reason you see the term "WoW Clone" spouted so much. Instead of trying something new and risky, these companies are looking at WoW, seeing what was successful, and basically rehashing it with a new skin, story, and title. These games try to be WoW, and take WoW's subscribers, but fail to beat WoW at what makes WoW so popular, and the games fall to mediocre subscriber levels at best.
Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I said it isn't the best product on the market, and I also said it doesn't have any competition. Both are viable and not contradictory. If we are talking quality and polish, I think WoW is the best on the market. If we want to talk gameplay mechanics, design structures, implementations, I don't think WoW is the best product. But that is just my opinion. I think there are other games that provide a deeper, more complex, more fulfilling experience then WoW, and I value those more than quality and polish, but some others may not. But the games I've found to be better than WoW have been out since before or right around when WoW came out. Nothing since WoW came out has been competition at all.
But of course this is biased, it's my personal opinion, can't be more biased than that.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
The failed logic in this argument is that this genre doesn't have it's 5 star restaurants. Mcdonalds is about the best thing you can get (among a few others). It's just this Mcdonalds grew to amazing size.
I'm sure you'll come with your 5 star restaurant and what you will call the cream of the crop I'll probably call some strange outlandish cuisine which is considered a delicacy there but in general is considered wholly horrid to eat if not a fan of it.
In other words, it's all down to taste. More people seem to prefer this Mcdonalds taste to the other venues they have.
Also, the biggest reason people DONT visit 5 star restaurants is... you guessed it... the price! Since that's not a valid argument in the P2P MMO industry since most mmo's cost roughly the same, what exactly will be your excuse people don't visit these 5 star restaurants I wonder...
Can't wait
Or you can just leave the comparisons to fast food restaurants. McDonalds is more popular than Burger King, Wendys, Jack in the Box,Taco Bell, Carls Jr etc.etc.etc. That would be much more accurate than comparing a fast food joint to an upscale restaurant since we are comparing MMOs and not "MMOs to Sinlge Player Games."
McDonalds is more popular than Burger kings ... in US.
KFC has an easier start in China than McDonalds.
Blah Blah Blah.
WoW has a stronger following than most games in most of the Western countries. In Asia, it does face quite some competition and the traditional Chinese version (from Taiwan) is not selling well now. The Chinese version in China is so hacked into pieces, quite a lot of gamers are playing on private servers.
As for the comparison of WoW to McDonalds I failed to respond. I never eat McD, I never understand why I need to go into McD, except when I am babysitting. Their children playground is nice, and free :P
WoW's success is due to advertisement? Oh can you sustain sales of empty bottles for 4 years for a price of a filled bottle of milk? That is bullshit number 1.
That people have not figured out after 4 years that it is threadmill? What does that mean? It means ppl do not agree with your negative view, they see fun in it that you cannot. Nothing wrong about either, except that you have to criticise others enjoying a game, while others respect your right to NOT enjoy it. This talks large on tolerance and understanding, and lacking from you.
You listed some features you think had helped WoW maintain its market share. You failed to realise this is exactly why there is no competition currently, b/c no company has been able to provide that kind of services these days. MMO is not a monopoly, MMO is not terribly expensive to launch, 10/20 million dollars is trivial these days to major corporates. Yet no one is able to provide a product that at least has just the kind of basic quality (accessibility, retention of clients ....). You say its not the best product in the market, you say there is no competition, you said ... how contradicatory, how biased.
I do hope you're not in marketing because you need to take comms 101 over again. Oh really and you know I need to study? Or maybe I am teaching that now?
Hello, I'm Elvis nice to meet you.
WoW's success is LARGELY due to marketing strongly and boldy, something MMOs don't usually do. They marketed pre launch, at launch and post launch. Not only at the usual mmo crowd but they went out to attract gamers and casual/non gamers as a whole. How many MMO ads do you see on TV besides wow? How many newspaper articles (because marketing is not just advertising but also PR) on your local or national papers do you see about other mmos? A lot of games have strong promotions behind, a lot of products have failed despite huge propaganda. Like I said you can sell an empty bottle once to fool a client, but you cannot keep him coming back to buy the empty bottle for 4 years. If you cannot understand that you need that 101 not me.
See below. If petty promos are the extent of your marketing reach i don't think 101 can help you at this point. And who still uses propaganda as a term? lol.
I played WoW for a long time, I don't like what's become of the game and I like the community even less. However, they deserve their credit for making an accessible product that has brought millions into a niche genre and for setting expectations for what most of these first time "mmoers" will think they want from their next game (which will probably be blizzard's next one). You do not like it, I understand and respect, but that does not extrapolate into a universal view.
What universal view did I try to impress on you, please explain? Did it not bring people to the the genre? Do people not continuously say "it looks like wow" "it isn't as good as wow" "it's a wow clone" etc etc?
The one thing that never gets discussed regarding WoW's incredible sub numbers is retention rates. How many people still play that used to play 4 years ago? I don't know a single person that still does. Yet the numbers go up so props to continuously attracting new players, something which other MMOs don't seem to be able to do at all. That is a business secret. I do not pretend to know. I do believe that there is a sizable number of old clients and accounts. At least the few accounts of my family all dated from first week. That is not a representative sample.
Obviously, yet you (and me) being on these forums represent a very biased sample unto ourselves. Most of the people that do play WoW never post a single item in their lives. Those are the people I'd be interested in knowing more about if I could.
A lot of other people here have already given you the answer. Marketing is the tool to raise customer awareness and interest in looking at your product, and maybe trying it out (free samples in supermarket, trial accounts in games). If your food sucks, free tasting will only drive your clients away. If the game is crappy, ppl might be fooled to buying it, but they will not sub. That is why I said: you can sell an empty bottle once, but not sustain it for 4 years, however well your ad is.
That's what promotion does. Promotion is but one tool, and it's main intent is to get people to try something out. Granted if it's horrible most people won't go back to it. However, advertising, PR and other tools work in other ways. Ex. Mr. Jack Average never played an MMO in his life but sees the advertisement for wow and thinks "oh elves, cool!" then he sees an article on the FT saying how wow has the population of an average northern country and is one of the most succesfull games in gaming history. His interesed is now piqued. He goes online and finds out he can try the game for free or whatever. He has nothing to compare it to and as has been said the game is polished and large and chances are he will keep playing for a few months. And then?
You CAN sell an empty bottle over an over it has been done time and time again. People buy brands not products and WoW is a huge gaming brand nowadays.
Want to talk about brands? Think Coke. Coke has consistently lost blind and double blind taste tests to Pepsi for the better part of a century yet mysteriously they are still number one. Coke's biggest marketing mistake was to launch New Coke back in the 80s. How so? It did better than coke (AND pepsi) in blind tastes yet when it launched it almost folded the company. They went back to regular coke... Coke is the world's most recognized brand. See the link? (I drink Coke)
You totally missed the point regarding the kind of promotion wow did compared to other MMOs... especially when it was done and to whom and you understimate the extent of their marketing machine.
Also, you miss the most important factor in WoW's mass market appeal: the lowest common denominator effect. A friend of mine always says (quite harshly but I've found it to be true) "Your product and communication are only as successful as the dumbest consumer it is directed to" How does this relate to in gaming terms? WoW is easy, it's plug and play, you suffer no penalties for failure (besides time spent), you have nothing to worry about besides levelling and your gear, you actually get REWARDED for failure in pvp, etc etc. In other words it's free fun with no consequences. There isn't alot of that in the world!
That said, we could sit here and write a book as to why WoW is so successful, i doubt even Blizzard truly knows. It's one of those brands that MADE it, being "first" on the market maybe helped, marketing surely did, and it's low denominator appeal surely does also but it's hard to really say what, where, why.
Finally, I didn't bash the game I said I don't like where it's at now. I give it credit where it's due and it entertained me for years. I do believe though that many of the games out there offer a much more immersive and rewarding (in the sense of working for something to get it) than WoW does.
"Also, you miss the most important factor in WoW's mass market appeal: the lowest common denominator effect. A friend of mine always says (quite harshly but I've found it to be true) "Your product and communication are only as successful as the dumbest consumer it is directed to" How does this relate to in gaming terms? WoW is easy, it's plug and play, you suffer no penalties for failure (besides time spent), you have nothing to worry about besides levelling and your gear, you actually get REWARDED for failure in pvp, etc etc. In other words it's free fun with no consequences. There isn't alot of that in the world!"
Put wow in relation to other mmo's of the current generation and then make that relative to games in *any* other genre and the difference is so small it's hardly even mentionable. No MMO's these days are significantly different from what you descibre.
West Wing fans will remember this line:
"Do you know why the New Coke marketing campaign failed? Because no on liked New Coke. The movies were bad. If they were just average I could help you , but they weren't They were JUST BAD."
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
if WoW was a bad game it would have gotten so large and sustained its population. Nuff said no amount of marketing would do such a thing if the game itself was terrible
i dont think wow is that bad of a game if its #1 in the world. But i have to admit when i was playing it it got boring unless i had a friend or went to pvp. but the game is still pretty cool, i think that it gets good after lvl 30 or so because its pretty slow from any part before that
i think blizzard was pretty crafty with their advertisements. ive never seen any other mmo get that much air time on tv than WoW. hell even southpark did an episode on it. you cant beat that kind of publicity at all. im sure with all of that advertisement, it made people want to try the game and see what it is all about. i think other mmo companies should take notes on this strategy.
If all 11+ million people left tomorrow, and no one played at all, it wouldn't be doom. It would be, simply put, the most successful game of all time (in terms of $$ generated). Dug it's own grave? If they had 6 million subscribers?
That doesn't even make sense. I mean if you got them all in a room, no cameras, no recording equipment of any kind, gave them a few cocktails, and then asked, "Can you believe that you still have 11 mill subs after this long?", they would all say "No, it's insane. We can't believe no one has made a game as good as ours yet to steal our subs."
What's amazing to me is that not only the Expansion still being the top seller almost a year from release, but the original game itself still selling 4 1/2 years afterward in the top ten. No other MMO can say that. Usually they have a big lauch and their boxes fill the stores, then a year later the majority are never seen from again. Try and find a box for older games like Everquest 2,Matrix,SWG, hell any SOE game will do.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
next game that topples WoW will most likely be from blizzard. Here's to hoping they finally make a diablo mmo