Not to mention that the poll shows over 60 percent of the people here don't want a rehash of that piece of shit for a game. UNDER 60%, dont want a rehash of that game. When a site has a forum labeled "SWG Refugee" much like the little signature under your avatar. Polls like this turn in into a target for those who can't forget the worst day of there lives, the day a game changed. Who could forget that great exploit in Kashyyk that large groups of jedi used to grind because they knew that Bounty Hunters couldn't attack them in that spot? I'd enter that area and twenty jedi padawans would quickly jump back in that spot and I couldn't attack them. Or the fact that BH droids didn't work on Kashyyk or Mustafar so jedi used those places to grind? I've never seen a game that encouraged exploiting quite like SWG did.Most games try and fix an exploit as soon as its seen. SOE on the other hand knew about them and did nothing. Last I heard, Bounty Hunter droids STILL don't work on those two planets and that was spotted 3 friggin years ago. you are discussing buggs and exploits which can be found in any game. is this the best you have? its the system that is of consequence. if you believe sw:tor will be free of buggs, regardless of the system it addopts, you are deluding yourself. and swg vets have been pleading to soe to fix ongoing bugs and exploits for ages - its not the players fault the game was run but an incompetent developer. besides, swg2 would not be the same as swg, it would have its improvements, of course. We don't believe SWtor will be bug free. We believe BioWare will make an attempt to fix them, unlike SOE. A game that had the name SWG2 would never live up do your pre-cu standards. Because if it did it would just be SWG pre-cu because thats all you people want.
UNDER 60%, dont want a rehash of that game. Yes it just RECENTLY went below 60 percent since I posted that.It is now at 59.4 % people who don't want a rehash of that game.Whoopy. Still not a ringing endorsement for a second coming of SWG you are discussing buggs and exploits which can be found in any game. is this the best you have? its the system that is of consequence. if you believe sw:tor will be free of buggs, regardless of the system it addopts, you are deluding yourself. and swg vets have been pleading to soe to fix ongoing bugs and exploits for ages - its not the players fault the game was run but an incompetent developer. besides, swg2 would not be the same as swg, it would have its improvements, of course. You have jumped into this conversation way late. I already DID discuss the various problems the game had that had nothing to do with bugs. I'm not going to rehash that all over again. Far as your attempt to "educate" me on MMORPGs and bugs, I don't think so.It is not standard practice for any game , not a successful one at least. I've never seen a game that had as many bugs as SWG. . When I was a Bounty Hunter, I constantly got marks that were in water,inside walls or just plain weren't there. That was the usual story on a lot of missions terminals. I also got kicked out of game more times than I can count as well as stuck in places that I couldn't get out of. That's just piss poor design from the start.I've been playing World of Warcraft for 6 months now and I have yet to run into a quest that was broken, or been kicked out or stuck in a spot that required a dev to get me out of. The people I'm supposed to meet also aren't hiding inside walls.
I was a fervent supporter of pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies and would love to see another game under Koster's philosophy, but it is not at all what I want or expect from The Old Republic.
I want it to be what BioWare is good at, what they're passionate about, and what I love them for. They're the only ones who I trust to raise the bar on the RPG element of MMORPGs, and I can only imagine that being done with plenty of instancing for strongly personalized gameplay, so that is what I'm hoping for.
I want someone to raise the bar on the MMO/sandbox element of MMORPGs as well, as I love sandboxes and I agree with those urging more of them to be made with greater production values, but I sure as hell don't see them as the One True Way that so many seem to.
Besides, only Second Life is more sandbox than EVE, and in my opinion, CCP has it perfectly in hand, forever introducing precisely what it is most sorely lacking with each expansion. I'm satisfied with EVE. I've never been satisfied by a so-called 'themepark' design, but I strongly believe that I can be, so I'm hoping for BioWare to prove me right, and I think they can.
I think that I will log in and say, 'Finally, someone has gotten this right.'
This is the same reason I want more fantasy MMOs despite everyone crying out that there are too many. Unlike sci-fi, I feel like no one has gotten fantasy right. But that's another discussion....
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
I was a fervent supporter of pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies and would love to see another game under Koster's philosophy, but it is not at all what I want or expect from The Old Republic. I want it to be what BioWare is good at, what they're passionate about, and what I love them for. They're the only ones who I trust to raise the bar on the RPG element of MMORPGs, and I can only imagine that being done with plenty of instancing for strongly personalized gameplay, so that is what I'm hoping for. I want someone to raise the bar on the MMO/sandbox element of MMORPGs as well, as I love sandboxes and I agree with those urging more of them to be made with greater production values, but I sure as hell don't see them as the One True Way that so many seem to. Besides, only Second Life is more sandbox than EVE, and in my opinion, CCP has it perfectly in hand, forever introducing precisely what it is most sorely lacking with each expansion. I'm satisfied with EVE. I've never been satisfied by a so-called 'themepark' design, but I strongly believe that I can be, so I'm hoping for BioWare to prove me right, and I think they can. I think that I will log in and say, 'Finally, someone had gotten this right.' This is the same reason I want more fantasy MMOs despite everyone crying out that there are too many. Unlike sci-fi, I feel like no one has gotten fantasy right. But that's another discussion....
Isn't Ralph Koster developing a sandbox game right now? I believe there are two MMORPGs in development that are sandbox oriented. Fans of that genre need to spend time there and stop trying to turn this game inot something that it's not.
I was a fervent supporter of pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies and would love to see another game under Koster's philosophy, but it is not at all what I want or expect from The Old Republic. I want it to be what BioWare is good at, what they're passionate about, and what I love them for. They're the only ones who I trust to raise the bar on the RPG element of MMORPGs, and I can only imagine that being done with plenty of instancing for strongly personalized gameplay, so that is what I'm hoping for. I want someone to raise the bar on the MMO/sandbox element of MMORPGs as well, as I love sandboxes and I agree with those urging more of them to be made with greater production values, but I sure as hell don't see them as the One True Way that so many seem to. Besides, only Second Life is more sandbox than EVE, and in my opinion, CCP has it perfectly in hand, forever introducing precisely what it is most sorely lacking with each expansion. I'm satisfied with EVE. I've never been satisfied by a so-called 'themepark' design, but I strongly believe that I can be, so I'm hoping for BioWare to prove me right, and I think they can. I think that I will log in and say, 'Finally, someone had gotten this right.' This is the same reason I want more fantasy MMOs despite everyone crying out that there are too many. Unlike sci-fi, I feel like no one has gotten fantasy right. But that's another discussion....
This post needs to be QFT!
I wish more people would realize what you've typed out here.
Well, I would say that for SWTOR, I'm not really expecting, nor am I looking for an SWG 2. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind another game like SWG, but for SWTOR, I'm sort of just wanting a solid SW MMO at this point. I really don't care what they do with it, as long as it's good and polished.
Now, that being said, I would like to add a few things about SWG. It would be untrue of me to say that even though it was my first MMO, it is my favorite. It would be more accurate to say that I am torn between SWG and CoH being my favorite MMO.
CoH, for me, did a lot of things right, straight out of the box. The character building mechanic, to the combat, to the overall skill/power development - all three of those parts of the game was, in my opinion, the best I've seen in any MMO to date. However, just about every other aspect of the game (when I played) was truely lacking. The overall story or mythos behind the game was great, but for some reason - the entire game from start to finish just felt like an epic grind to max level. The combat was truely fun, don't get me wrong. But combat without context doesn't work for me. Sure, there was context there, but it was presented in a rather lack luster manner.
Now, on SWG, there were signs of truely great things at play. We can all agree that most of everything in the game was bugged and borked, however.
For the next "sandbox" MMO with the SW liscense, I would like to have all the freedom we had in SWG, but I would like to replace the character buildup with that of CoH, trade in the skill progression with something more similar to CoH, and have the combat more action oriented, instead of queing up attacks.
In any event, I don't expect any of this to be in SWTOR (except maybe a better overall combat system). What I do expect from SWTOR is a great story for whichever class I choose to play as, and for it to be extremely polished. For me, that's enough. Just make a SW MMO that is true to the lore, and then don't release it until you have the core gameplay loop working at 90% for every class. Add as much as you want later - I don't care. But when I open that box, and I install, and I load up for the first time - I don't want to see any huge game breaking bugs, period.
Isn't Ralph Koster developing a sandbox game right now? I believe there are two MMORPGs in development that are sandbox oriented. Fans of that genre need to spend time there and stop trying to turn this game inot something that it's not.
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
And of course there are sandbox games in development, but SWG refugees are hellbent on making sure there's another Star Wars sandbox, as if Star Wars somehow demands it. I can't say I agree.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
"These guys are real gamers, not hardcore elitist programmers looking for a simulation that somehow proves they are masters of the universe. I believe this is the reason why the genre is so slow to change. It's saturated with progammers that are just as hardcore / raid centric as the minority they cater to."
Well raiding is nothing new and I tend not to like it either but... "real games... not hardcore elitist programmers lor for a similuation...."
so you don't want a simulation nor raids... yet you want real gamers to program the new game, not hardcore programers... well I think we need hardcore programmers to get away from the end-game raids. You post is just very confusing... To me if you want simple and a real gamer program it will tend to be towards raids and quests... a hardcore programmer tends have a more simulation world... ie.. crafting and such...
so what exactly do you want?
I beg your pardon? Who in their right mind lumps raiding in there with soloing / small group casual style gameplay? It's pretty much universal that raiding is a hardcore play style and fits right on in there with sandbox / second job style games.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Isn't Ralph Koster developing a sandbox game right now? I believe there are two MMORPGs in development that are sandbox oriented. Fans of that genre need to spend time there and stop trying to turn this game inot something that it's not.
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
And of course there are sandbox games in development, but SWG refugees are hellbent on making sure there's another Star Wars sandbox, as if Star Wars somehow demands it. I can't say I agree.
So you guys picked a game already in development, probably in late alpha stage. And say it has to be a sandbox. You guys left because the NGE was forced on you, so why would the vets come to this game and try and force sandbox style BS on us?
Isn't Ralph Koster developing a sandbox game right now? I believe there are two MMORPGs in development that are sandbox oriented. Fans of that genre need to spend time there and stop trying to turn this game inot something that it's not.
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
do you have a link for this?
i visit his site on occasion but have missed this announcement. as far as i knew he was working on metaplace only.
i am old school swg. Veterano. The game did a lot of good things, i especially liked the interactivity, that one player really relied on another player for things. For instance doctors to take off your disease, or entertainers to get you back up to speed. I liked the harshness too that if you died it meant something. I liked that when you were far out in the wilderness it felt like you were really out there and there was some use to the support skills that a ranger had. I dont expect or want this game to try and replicate the old swg because I firmly believe you can't recreate the past. But maybe just maybe they will remember some of the charm of swg and find a way to splice in...
LOL. Millions use to play that game? Abe's own chart shows that SWG never reached above 300,000 subscribers. That's piss poor for a franchise as big as Star Wars.
He may be confusing the announcment of "Million boxes sold" or whatever they announced with actual subscribers. But no, SWG never came close to a million concurrent subscribers.
Saying 300k subscribers is piss poor for Star Wars is not exactly accurate, as you really have to think of the time that it was made. MMORPGs weren't exactly the mass market trend back then. 300k subscribers was a very successful MMO then, and frankly, still is today. Should SWG had a bigger population, even back then? Yes, I think so. Was it because of the game design? No, not entirely. Yes, the sandbox style probably drove off a few people, but that style of game was a lot more accepted back then than it is today. I think a bigger contributor to the SWG performing the way that it did was the large amount of bugs and exploits that were never fixed by SOE.
In the end, many factors contributed to it. But 300k subscribers is a very respectable number, even today. LotRO, which is a huge franchise, is pushing what, 100k subscribers in a linear style game?
MMORPGs might not have been as well played as they are now, but many stiil performed better than SWG at it's so called peak. Everquest at it's peak reached 500k subscribers. Far as I know, there isn't a Everquest movie and it isn't known much outside the game. Star Wars is franchise that has produced 6 movies that have made over a billion dollars, merchandising that has netted mor billions and they couldn't even top everquest; even with people buying multiple accounts it couldn't touch it.I'm not sure about LOTRO as I've never played it because I have never been a fan of the franchise, so why it isn't doing better I have no idea.
World of Warcraft came out a year and a half afterwards and left everyone in the dust. The difference is, World of Warcraft is the one that changed the entire industry and was the trend setter. It is fun to play because (IMO) people got what they were asking for. They wanted to feel like they were playing in the Warcraft universe and they got that. With SWG, I never felt like I was playing in the Star Wars universe. Seeing buffed TKMs kicking the crap out of stormtroopers is not Star Wars. Seeing melee professions dominate ranged is not Star Wars.Seeing jedi duel right next to stormtroopers is not Star Wars.Having hundreds of jedi around when there was only a few alive in that time frame was insulting to the IP. There were so many elemants that were wrong and contradictive for many Star Wars fans and that is why the game wasn't the success it should have been.
you're missing something here. World of Warcraft is aimed at mass appeal, anyone can pick it up and start progressing almost immediately. you're picking apart aspects of the game, that are that way because that's how a video game is played. i don't even totally understand your issue with TKM beating up Stormtroopers... if i remember correctly they have even been referenced in books. anyway, SWG was not a game you just picked up and started playing.... unlike wow where anyone can begin playing and then they choose how far they want to take their skills. MMO's are notoriously unrealistic... that argument holds true with every other game as well.
The fact that World of Warcraft is has an easier learning curb is jjust one of many reasons why it has stayed successful where others have failed, but it certainly a good one.I don';t think appealing to the masses is a weakness. I think it's smart business to make a game that does a good job of explaining how everything works. If you make the basic functions of the game difficult to figure out then people get frustrated and stop playing.And since MMORPGS are subscriber based, that makes it a detrimental decision. I can't tell you how many people have said that they gave up on EVE because it was too dificult to figure out the basic controls of the game.To me it doesn't make sense to spend millions creating a game that leaves it's basic functions very vague. World of Warcraft leaves many noticable messages that a beginner can use to figure out what works and they even write some of these things into their quests. Again, smart business and not a weakness.
TKMs did not kick the crap out of Stormtroopers in the movies and melee was not the dominant form of combat in the original trilogy. If you are going to make a game based off of a set of movies then the game should respect the rules layed out by the movies. Setting a game in the era of the Empire Strikes Back and having jedi everywhere along with the other things I pointed out kills the imersion factor for many fans of that series.That's why those millions of boxes sold didn't turn into millions of subscribers staying.
if you really believe, SWG failed because of it's steep learning curve.... then you really aren't seeing the big picture. i wasn't ragging on WoW, i played WoW on and off for almost 4 years. what they did for games at the mass appeal level was unbelievable. what i am saying, is not everyone wants a Pick-Up-And-Go MMO... it sounds like you want every MMO to follow the same guidelines, which is just plain boring and dull. no one is arguing it's not smart to design a game that's easy to start playing for appeal, we're saying not everyone wants a game like that... and SWG broke the mold whether you choose to admit it or not. as to your comment about EVE, talk bad about it all you want... but in reality EVE is probably one of the most respected long-term MMOs around. not everyone plays it, but the people who do think it's the best thing in the world... and hardly anyone talks sh*t about it, they usually just say "it's not for me" or "i found the learning curve difficult".
i said TKMs were in the BOOKS not MOVIES, go back and re-read my post. more importantly, you just cannot follow every aspect of a movie when creating games, especially multiplayer games. name me one movie based MMO that's completely faithful to the original story... name one game and i'll compile a list of at least 20+ things that are serious contradictions to the movie or books they're based off of.
just to clarify, i don't think this game should be an SWG 2, i just think they could learn a couple things from pre-CU SWG. particularly in the creative department, like game mechanics. you're more than welcome to say SWG wasn't for me, or i hated the game design layout. a lot of the departure from SWG was WoW... because it was a new game from a respected company, with a lot of hype behind it. if SOE had not released NGE or CU, you would have seen a lot of people roll back to playing SWG in 6 months... all they had to do was start balancing classes, and find a better place for Jedi in the game. when SOE did release NGE they sealed their own fate, and pushed away partically every original subscriber. i know a ton of people from SWG, and the only people i know that still play, are people who are hardcore Star Wars fans and SWG is the only MMO currently available where they can get their fix.
people have no idea how groundbreaking SWG was. i'll bring up my original point again one last time. please name one MMO that was even similar to the pre-CU system. better yet find one that was similar and as sucessful. customer player classes, completely player driven economy, an elite style of class to drive for, harsh penalties for player death, long preperation for combat, completely free standing player cities when and wherever you want, etc etc.
if you really want to stand by your statement, that SWG was so hard for the general population that no one could play it, and that was the reaosn for it's failure... then riddle me this. SWG was my first MMO, prior to that i had never touched an MMO or RPG. how is it that i was able to pick up the game and then even unlock Jedi within a year?
if you really believe, SWG failed because of it's steep learning curve.... then you really aren't seeing the big picture. i wasn't ragging on WoW, i played WoW on and off for almost 4 years. what they did for games at the mass appeal level was unbelievable. what i am saying, is not everyone wants a Pick-Up-And-Go MMO... it sounds like you want every MMO to follow the same guidelines, which is just plain boring and dull. no one is arguing it's not smart to design a game that's easy to start playing for appeal, we're saying not everyone wants a game like that... and SWG broke the mold whether you choose to admit it or not. as to your comment about EVE, talk bad about it all you want... but in reality EVE is probably one of the most respected long-term MMOs around. not everyone plays it, but the people who do think it's the best thing in the world... and hardly anyone talks sh*t about it, they usually just say "it's not for me" or "i found the learning curve difficult". Every game ever sold worldwide, rather it be poker, monopoly, or candyland comes with a set of instructions. To design and sell a game with limited instruction or tutorial that leaves customers confused is not "advanced", it's just freaking STUPID to the Nth degree... I tried Eve on the 14 day free trial and found it next to impossible to enjoy.. i said TKMs were in the BOOKS not MOVIES, go back and re-read my post. more importantly, you just cannot follow every aspect of a movie when creating games, especially multiplayer games. name me one movie based MMO that's completely faithful to the original story... name one game and i'll compile a list of at least 20+ things that are serious contradictions to the movie or books they're based off of. just to clarify, i don't think this game should be an SWG 2, i just think they could learn a couple things from pre-CU SWG. particularly in the creative department, like game mechanics. you're more than welcome to say SWG wasn't for me, or i hated the game design layout. a lot of the departure from SWG was WoW... because it was a new game from a respected company, with a lot of hype behind it. if SOE had not released NGE or CU, you would have seen a lot of people roll back to playing SWG in 6 months...YOU have got to be kidding me.. are you serious? lol all they had to do was start balancing classes, and find a better place for Jedi in the game. when SOE did release NGE they sealed their own fate, and pushed away partically every original subscriber. i know a ton of people from SWG, and the only people i know that still play, are people who are hardcore Star Wars fans and SWG is the only MMO currently available where they can get their fix. Yeah.. sorta like Eve is the only one of it's type,, but not for long.. people have no idea how groundbreaking SWG was. YOU are so true there.. SWG showed the industry how to inbalance combat on a monthly basis.. SWG showed the industry how to NOT do crafting.. SWG showed the industry how to grind bugged missions 50% of the time.. SWG showed the industry how to rubberband everything that moved, and then some... and last but not least.. SWG showed the industry how to inplode in a unbelievable short time.. i'll bring up my original point again one last time. please name one MMO that was even similar to the pre-CU system. ? huh ? better yet find one that was similar and as sucessful. ? SWG was successful ? customer player classes, ? huh ? you mean classes like WoW with talent trees.. which worked alot better then anything SOE produced.. completely player driven economy, ? HUH ? if it wasn't for hologrinding there would of been NO economy.. lol an elite style of class to drive for, ? huh ? you mean something like a hero class DEATH KNIGHTs in WoW harsh penalties for player death, ? huh ? this is good? lmaooo long preperation for combat, completely free standing player cities when and wherever you want, etc etc. if you really want to stand by your statement, that SWG was so hard for the general population that no one could play it, and that was the reaosn for it's failure... then riddle me this. SWG was my first MMO, prior to that i had never touched an MMO or RPG. how is it that i was able to pick up the game and then even unlock Jedi within a year? ? huh ? you learned how to use macro's and level as you sleep.. WOW I'm impressed.. Don't even deny you macro botted..
In any case.. This was one of the funniest "boo hoo hoo I want my SWG back" post i"ve read in awhile.. lol
Granted. SWG was upon its time the most amazing MMO out there. It had a lot of very good ideas. Players controlled the economy, There were no vendors. The Class Scheme was fantastic. It was just an amazing game. If it was re released without all the hellish upgrades, hell yeah SWG 2 would be fantastic.
Don't they have a SWG Vet message board where all the SWG vets can praise and brag about all the PRECioUs??
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
The fact that World of Warcraft is has an easier learning curb is jjust one of many reasons why it has stayed successful where others have failed, but it certainly a good one.I don';t think appealing to the masses is a weakness. I think it's smart business to make a game that does a good job of explaining how everything works. If you make the basic functions of the game difficult to figure out then people get frustrated and stop playing.And since MMORPGS are subscriber based, that makes it a detrimental decision. I can't tell you how many people have said that they gave up on EVE because it was too dificult to figure out the basic controls of the game.To me it doesn't make sense to spend millions creating a game that leaves it's basic functions very vague. World of Warcraft leaves many noticable messages that a beginner can use to figure out what works and they even write some of these things into their quests. Again, smart business and not a weakness. TKMs did not kick the crap out of Stormtroopers in the movies and melee was not the dominant form of combat in the original trilogy. If you are going to make a game based off of a set of movies then the game should respect the rules layed out by the movies. Setting a game in the era of the Empire Strikes Back and having jedi everywhere along with the other things I pointed out kills the imersion factor for many fans of that series.That's why those millions of boxes sold didn't turn into millions of subscribers staying.
if you really believe, SWG failed because of it's steep learning curve.... then you really aren't seeing the big picture. i wasn't ragging on WoW, i played WoW on and off for almost 4 years. what they did for games at the mass appeal level was unbelievable. what i am saying, is not everyone wants a Pick-Up-And-Go MMO... it sounds like you want every MMO to follow the same guidelines, which is just plain boring and dull. no one is arguing it's not smart to design a game that's easy to start playing for appeal, we're saying not everyone wants a game like that... and SWG broke the mold whether you choose to admit it or not. as to your comment about EVE, talk bad about it all you want... but in reality EVE is probably one of the most respected long-term MMOs around. not everyone plays it, but the people who do think it's the best thing in the world... and hardly anyone talks sh*t about it, they usually just say "it's not for me" or "i found the learning curve difficult".
i said TKMs were in the BOOKS not MOVIES, go back and re-read my post. more importantly, you just cannot follow every aspect of a movie when creating games, especially multiplayer games. name me one movie based MMO that's completely faithful to the original story... name one game and i'll compile a list of at least 20+ things that are serious contradictions to the movie or books they're based off of.
just to clarify, i don't think this game should be an SWG 2, i just think they could learn a couple things from pre-CU SWG. particularly in the creative department, like game mechanics. you're more than welcome to say SWG wasn't for me, or i hated the game design layout. a lot of the departure from SWG was WoW... because it was a new game from a respected company, with a lot of hype behind it. if SOE had not released NGE or CU, you would have seen a lot of people roll back to playing SWG in 6 months... all they had to do was start balancing classes, and find a better place for Jedi in the game. when SOE did release NGE they sealed their own fate, and pushed away partically every original subscriber. i know a ton of people from SWG, and the only people i know that still play, are people who are hardcore Star Wars fans and SWG is the only MMO currently available where they can get their fix.
people have no idea how groundbreaking SWG was. i'll bring up my original point again one last time. please name one MMO that was even similar to the pre-CU system. better yet find one that was similar and as sucessful. customer player classes, completely player driven economy, an elite style of class to drive for, harsh penalties for player death, long preperation for combat, completely free standing player cities when and wherever you want, etc etc.
if you really want to stand by your statement, that SWG was so hard for the general population that no one could play it, and that was the reaosn for it's failure... then riddle me this. SWG was my first MMO, prior to that i had never touched an MMO or RPG. how is it that i was able to pick up the game and then even unlock Jedi within a year?
As I've repeated many times(which you keep ignoring) the learning curve was just ONE reason why I didn't like the game. SWG was also my first MMO and eventually I figured out how things worked, but I didn't find that process to be fun and interesting.I found it be one of many needless time sinks that the game designed for itself which didn't add anything but frustration.And once again, there are multiple reasons why I hated that game and I'm thru repeating them.
The game is set in the Original Trilogy so it should at least look like it.No one is saying that it has to be 100 percent like the movies, but the game does at least have to adhere to its own rules. SWG broke the rules of its own IP so much that it ceased to be Star Wars. Having Stromtroopers beaten in hand to hand combat by players in composite armour breaks that rule as well has hundreds of jedi in a time when they aren't supposed to be there. Melee is NOT the dominant form of combat in Star Wars, ranged was. Go back and watch the original trilogy.
LOL to the rest of your post. Needless time sinks aren't groundbreaking in my book. I play a game to have fun. That's all it is to me.I don't pay 15 dollars a month to stand around and chat. That's what chat rooms are for. I know that some of you think of MMORPGs as virtual worlds where you can live in a fantasy world and that's fine.Just don't expect hordes of people to share your view. And don't make the typical mistake that many of you make that others who don't agree with you don't get it. I played that game for 2 1/2 years and know better.
Don't they have a SWG Vet message board where all the SWG vets can praise and brag about all the PRECioUs??
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
the site will soon undergo a huge revamp with loads of new features and upgrades. and its not dead.
Don't they have a SWG Vet message board where all the SWG vets can praise and brag about all the PRECioUs??
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
the site will soon undergo a huge revamp with loads of new features and upgrades. and its not dead.
Yeah, no one cares about SWG, most of the large guilds have moved to the TOR forums now, and I was talking about the vet forums for SWG here.
SW: TOR needs to be one thing and one thing only ... SW: TOR
BioWare needs to do what BioWare does and has always done well.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
SWG, while an interesting game didn't feel like Star Wars in the least. What's Star Wars in killing Womp Rats for parts to make traps? Bioware needs to do what they do best and anyone still left pining for SWG should get over it already.
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
SWG, while an interesting game didn't feel like Star Wars in the least. What's Star Wars in killing Womp Rats for parts to make traps? Bioware needs to do what they do best and anyone still left pining for SWG should get over it already.
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
I'm sorry, but when I picked up that box at Best Buy my first thought wasn't "Great! now I can play Uncle Owen and sell things to people!" When I think of Star Wars, I don't think about the guy that kills animals so that he can sell the skin, bones or meat for profit. I'm glad that some of you found that appealing, but when I play a Star Wars game based on the origianl trilogy I want a game with blasters firing, Bounty Hunters going after smugglers and criminals, Smugglers who actually smuggle stuff,loyalty of troops enforced,real consequences for changing sides,no jedi anywhere etc.etc.etc. THat's not having a narrow mind. That's called high expectations which I'm sad to say was never met no matter how many times they revamped the game.They didn;t even bother to have fighters for the first year and half of the game. Give me a break. Half of Star Wars is about the combat happening in space. How can you make a game called "Star WARS" and not bother with space?
At least with this game, Bioware is making a real effort to make the game FEEL like Star Wars.
SWG, while an interesting game didn't feel like Star Wars in the least. What's Star Wars in killing Womp Rats for parts to make traps? Bioware needs to do what they do best and anyone still left pining for SWG should get over it already.
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
What is Star Wars about that? That age in the Star Wars timeline was ripe for adventure. Adventure that focused solely on the common guy rising up to be a hero. They failed completely to bring that across.
When I play an MMO, I want to feel like something more than just some jerk hunting rats or watching a wookiee dance at the cantina. I want to feel like I'm a part of the war. I want to rise beyond killing womp rat #345506895323 or even Stormtrooper #4509402958 for XP, but feel like I'm on my war to becoming one of the legends of the SW universe. That's what all the canon material is about. When did anything about SW focus on the simple rodian eating a rat?
My veiw of the SW universe may be narrower, but it's certainly more exciting and more true to the source material.
Comments
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I was a fervent supporter of pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies and would love to see another game under Koster's philosophy, but it is not at all what I want or expect from The Old Republic.
I want it to be what BioWare is good at, what they're passionate about, and what I love them for. They're the only ones who I trust to raise the bar on the RPG element of MMORPGs, and I can only imagine that being done with plenty of instancing for strongly personalized gameplay, so that is what I'm hoping for.
I want someone to raise the bar on the MMO/sandbox element of MMORPGs as well, as I love sandboxes and I agree with those urging more of them to be made with greater production values, but I sure as hell don't see them as the One True Way that so many seem to.
Besides, only Second Life is more sandbox than EVE, and in my opinion, CCP has it perfectly in hand, forever introducing precisely what it is most sorely lacking with each expansion. I'm satisfied with EVE. I've never been satisfied by a so-called 'themepark' design, but I strongly believe that I can be, so I'm hoping for BioWare to prove me right, and I think they can.
I think that I will log in and say, 'Finally, someone has gotten this right.'
This is the same reason I want more fantasy MMOs despite everyone crying out that there are too many. Unlike sci-fi, I feel like no one has gotten fantasy right. But that's another discussion....
Isn't Ralph Koster developing a sandbox game right now? I believe there are two MMORPGs in development that are sandbox oriented. Fans of that genre need to spend time there and stop trying to turn this game inot something that it's not.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
This post needs to be QFT!
I wish more people would realize what you've typed out here.
Cheers!
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Well, I would say that for SWTOR, I'm not really expecting, nor am I looking for an SWG 2. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind another game like SWG, but for SWTOR, I'm sort of just wanting a solid SW MMO at this point. I really don't care what they do with it, as long as it's good and polished.
Now, that being said, I would like to add a few things about SWG. It would be untrue of me to say that even though it was my first MMO, it is my favorite. It would be more accurate to say that I am torn between SWG and CoH being my favorite MMO.
CoH, for me, did a lot of things right, straight out of the box. The character building mechanic, to the combat, to the overall skill/power development - all three of those parts of the game was, in my opinion, the best I've seen in any MMO to date. However, just about every other aspect of the game (when I played) was truely lacking. The overall story or mythos behind the game was great, but for some reason - the entire game from start to finish just felt like an epic grind to max level. The combat was truely fun, don't get me wrong. But combat without context doesn't work for me. Sure, there was context there, but it was presented in a rather lack luster manner.
Now, on SWG, there were signs of truely great things at play. We can all agree that most of everything in the game was bugged and borked, however.
For the next "sandbox" MMO with the SW liscense, I would like to have all the freedom we had in SWG, but I would like to replace the character buildup with that of CoH, trade in the skill progression with something more similar to CoH, and have the combat more action oriented, instead of queing up attacks.
In any event, I don't expect any of this to be in SWTOR (except maybe a better overall combat system). What I do expect from SWTOR is a great story for whichever class I choose to play as, and for it to be extremely polished. For me, that's enough. Just make a SW MMO that is true to the lore, and then don't release it until you have the core gameplay loop working at 90% for every class. Add as much as you want later - I don't care. But when I open that box, and I install, and I load up for the first time - I don't want to see any huge game breaking bugs, period.
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
And of course there are sandbox games in development, but SWG refugees are hellbent on making sure there's another Star Wars sandbox, as if Star Wars somehow demands it. I can't say I agree.
I beg your pardon? Who in their right mind lumps raiding in there with soloing / small group casual style gameplay? It's pretty much universal that raiding is a hardcore play style and fits right on in there with sandbox / second job style games.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
And of course there are sandbox games in development, but SWG refugees are hellbent on making sure there's another Star Wars sandbox, as if Star Wars somehow demands it. I can't say I agree.
So you guys picked a game already in development, probably in late alpha stage. And say it has to be a sandbox. You guys left because the NGE was forced on you, so why would the vets come to this game and try and force sandbox style BS on us?
He has mentioned that he is, but that's all that is known.
do you have a link for this?
i visit his site on occasion but have missed this announcement. as far as i knew he was working on metaplace only.
thanks.
i am old school swg. Veterano. The game did a lot of good things, i especially liked the interactivity, that one player really relied on another player for things. For instance doctors to take off your disease, or entertainers to get you back up to speed. I liked the harshness too that if you died it meant something. I liked that when you were far out in the wilderness it felt like you were really out there and there was some use to the support skills that a ranger had. I dont expect or want this game to try and replicate the old swg because I firmly believe you can't recreate the past. But maybe just maybe they will remember some of the charm of swg and find a way to splice in...
He may be confusing the announcment of "Million boxes sold" or whatever they announced with actual subscribers. But no, SWG never came close to a million concurrent subscribers.
Saying 300k subscribers is piss poor for Star Wars is not exactly accurate, as you really have to think of the time that it was made. MMORPGs weren't exactly the mass market trend back then. 300k subscribers was a very successful MMO then, and frankly, still is today. Should SWG had a bigger population, even back then? Yes, I think so. Was it because of the game design? No, not entirely. Yes, the sandbox style probably drove off a few people, but that style of game was a lot more accepted back then than it is today. I think a bigger contributor to the SWG performing the way that it did was the large amount of bugs and exploits that were never fixed by SOE.
In the end, many factors contributed to it. But 300k subscribers is a very respectable number, even today. LotRO, which is a huge franchise, is pushing what, 100k subscribers in a linear style game?
MMORPGs might not have been as well played as they are now, but many stiil performed better than SWG at it's so called peak. Everquest at it's peak reached 500k subscribers. Far as I know, there isn't a Everquest movie and it isn't known much outside the game. Star Wars is franchise that has produced 6 movies that have made over a billion dollars, merchandising that has netted mor billions and they couldn't even top everquest; even with people buying multiple accounts it couldn't touch it.I'm not sure about LOTRO as I've never played it because I have never been a fan of the franchise, so why it isn't doing better I have no idea.
World of Warcraft came out a year and a half afterwards and left everyone in the dust. The difference is, World of Warcraft is the one that changed the entire industry and was the trend setter. It is fun to play because (IMO) people got what they were asking for. They wanted to feel like they were playing in the Warcraft universe and they got that. With SWG, I never felt like I was playing in the Star Wars universe. Seeing buffed TKMs kicking the crap out of stormtroopers is not Star Wars. Seeing melee professions dominate ranged is not Star Wars.Seeing jedi duel right next to stormtroopers is not Star Wars.Having hundreds of jedi around when there was only a few alive in that time frame was insulting to the IP. There were so many elemants that were wrong and contradictive for many Star Wars fans and that is why the game wasn't the success it should have been.
you're missing something here. World of Warcraft is aimed at mass appeal, anyone can pick it up and start progressing almost immediately. you're picking apart aspects of the game, that are that way because that's how a video game is played. i don't even totally understand your issue with TKM beating up Stormtroopers... if i remember correctly they have even been referenced in books. anyway, SWG was not a game you just picked up and started playing.... unlike wow where anyone can begin playing and then they choose how far they want to take their skills. MMO's are notoriously unrealistic... that argument holds true with every other game as well.
The fact that World of Warcraft is has an easier learning curb is jjust one of many reasons why it has stayed successful where others have failed, but it certainly a good one.I don';t think appealing to the masses is a weakness. I think it's smart business to make a game that does a good job of explaining how everything works. If you make the basic functions of the game difficult to figure out then people get frustrated and stop playing.And since MMORPGS are subscriber based, that makes it a detrimental decision. I can't tell you how many people have said that they gave up on EVE because it was too dificult to figure out the basic controls of the game.To me it doesn't make sense to spend millions creating a game that leaves it's basic functions very vague. World of Warcraft leaves many noticable messages that a beginner can use to figure out what works and they even write some of these things into their quests. Again, smart business and not a weakness.
TKMs did not kick the crap out of Stormtroopers in the movies and melee was not the dominant form of combat in the original trilogy. If you are going to make a game based off of a set of movies then the game should respect the rules layed out by the movies. Setting a game in the era of the Empire Strikes Back and having jedi everywhere along with the other things I pointed out kills the imersion factor for many fans of that series.That's why those millions of boxes sold didn't turn into millions of subscribers staying.
if you really believe, SWG failed because of it's steep learning curve.... then you really aren't seeing the big picture. i wasn't ragging on WoW, i played WoW on and off for almost 4 years. what they did for games at the mass appeal level was unbelievable. what i am saying, is not everyone wants a Pick-Up-And-Go MMO... it sounds like you want every MMO to follow the same guidelines, which is just plain boring and dull. no one is arguing it's not smart to design a game that's easy to start playing for appeal, we're saying not everyone wants a game like that... and SWG broke the mold whether you choose to admit it or not. as to your comment about EVE, talk bad about it all you want... but in reality EVE is probably one of the most respected long-term MMOs around. not everyone plays it, but the people who do think it's the best thing in the world... and hardly anyone talks sh*t about it, they usually just say "it's not for me" or "i found the learning curve difficult".
i said TKMs were in the BOOKS not MOVIES, go back and re-read my post. more importantly, you just cannot follow every aspect of a movie when creating games, especially multiplayer games. name me one movie based MMO that's completely faithful to the original story... name one game and i'll compile a list of at least 20+ things that are serious contradictions to the movie or books they're based off of.
just to clarify, i don't think this game should be an SWG 2, i just think they could learn a couple things from pre-CU SWG. particularly in the creative department, like game mechanics. you're more than welcome to say SWG wasn't for me, or i hated the game design layout. a lot of the departure from SWG was WoW... because it was a new game from a respected company, with a lot of hype behind it. if SOE had not released NGE or CU, you would have seen a lot of people roll back to playing SWG in 6 months... all they had to do was start balancing classes, and find a better place for Jedi in the game. when SOE did release NGE they sealed their own fate, and pushed away partically every original subscriber. i know a ton of people from SWG, and the only people i know that still play, are people who are hardcore Star Wars fans and SWG is the only MMO currently available where they can get their fix.
people have no idea how groundbreaking SWG was. i'll bring up my original point again one last time. please name one MMO that was even similar to the pre-CU system. better yet find one that was similar and as sucessful. customer player classes, completely player driven economy, an elite style of class to drive for, harsh penalties for player death, long preperation for combat, completely free standing player cities when and wherever you want, etc etc.
if you really want to stand by your statement, that SWG was so hard for the general population that no one could play it, and that was the reaosn for it's failure... then riddle me this. SWG was my first MMO, prior to that i had never touched an MMO or RPG. how is it that i was able to pick up the game and then even unlock Jedi within a year?
In any case.. This was one of the funniest "boo hoo hoo I want my SWG back" post i"ve read in awhile.. lol
Granted. SWG was upon its time the most amazing MMO out there. It had a lot of very good ideas. Players controlled the economy, There were no vendors. The Class Scheme was fantastic. It was just an amazing game. If it was re released without all the hellish upgrades, hell yeah SWG 2 would be fantastic.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
Hey!
If TOR is fun in it's own way does it really mater if it's like SWG pre-cu was? Or can you only have fun in Sandbox games? Just wondering.
Don't they have a SWG Vet message board where all the SWG vets can praise and brag about all the PRECioUs??
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
if you really believe, SWG failed because of it's steep learning curve.... then you really aren't seeing the big picture. i wasn't ragging on WoW, i played WoW on and off for almost 4 years. what they did for games at the mass appeal level was unbelievable. what i am saying, is not everyone wants a Pick-Up-And-Go MMO... it sounds like you want every MMO to follow the same guidelines, which is just plain boring and dull. no one is arguing it's not smart to design a game that's easy to start playing for appeal, we're saying not everyone wants a game like that... and SWG broke the mold whether you choose to admit it or not. as to your comment about EVE, talk bad about it all you want... but in reality EVE is probably one of the most respected long-term MMOs around. not everyone plays it, but the people who do think it's the best thing in the world... and hardly anyone talks sh*t about it, they usually just say "it's not for me" or "i found the learning curve difficult".
i said TKMs were in the BOOKS not MOVIES, go back and re-read my post. more importantly, you just cannot follow every aspect of a movie when creating games, especially multiplayer games. name me one movie based MMO that's completely faithful to the original story... name one game and i'll compile a list of at least 20+ things that are serious contradictions to the movie or books they're based off of.
just to clarify, i don't think this game should be an SWG 2, i just think they could learn a couple things from pre-CU SWG. particularly in the creative department, like game mechanics. you're more than welcome to say SWG wasn't for me, or i hated the game design layout. a lot of the departure from SWG was WoW... because it was a new game from a respected company, with a lot of hype behind it. if SOE had not released NGE or CU, you would have seen a lot of people roll back to playing SWG in 6 months... all they had to do was start balancing classes, and find a better place for Jedi in the game. when SOE did release NGE they sealed their own fate, and pushed away partically every original subscriber. i know a ton of people from SWG, and the only people i know that still play, are people who are hardcore Star Wars fans and SWG is the only MMO currently available where they can get their fix.
people have no idea how groundbreaking SWG was. i'll bring up my original point again one last time. please name one MMO that was even similar to the pre-CU system. better yet find one that was similar and as sucessful. customer player classes, completely player driven economy, an elite style of class to drive for, harsh penalties for player death, long preperation for combat, completely free standing player cities when and wherever you want, etc etc.
if you really want to stand by your statement, that SWG was so hard for the general population that no one could play it, and that was the reaosn for it's failure... then riddle me this. SWG was my first MMO, prior to that i had never touched an MMO or RPG. how is it that i was able to pick up the game and then even unlock Jedi within a year?
As I've repeated many times(which you keep ignoring) the learning curve was just ONE reason why I didn't like the game. SWG was also my first MMO and eventually I figured out how things worked, but I didn't find that process to be fun and interesting.I found it be one of many needless time sinks that the game designed for itself which didn't add anything but frustration.And once again, there are multiple reasons why I hated that game and I'm thru repeating them.
The game is set in the Original Trilogy so it should at least look like it.No one is saying that it has to be 100 percent like the movies, but the game does at least have to adhere to its own rules. SWG broke the rules of its own IP so much that it ceased to be Star Wars. Having Stromtroopers beaten in hand to hand combat by players in composite armour breaks that rule as well has hundreds of jedi in a time when they aren't supposed to be there. Melee is NOT the dominant form of combat in Star Wars, ranged was. Go back and watch the original trilogy.
LOL to the rest of your post. Needless time sinks aren't groundbreaking in my book. I play a game to have fun. That's all it is to me.I don't pay 15 dollars a month to stand around and chat. That's what chat rooms are for. I know that some of you think of MMORPGs as virtual worlds where you can live in a fantasy world and that's fine.Just don't expect hordes of people to share your view. And don't make the typical mistake that many of you make that others who don't agree with you don't get it. I played that game for 2 1/2 years and know better.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
the site will soon undergo a huge revamp with loads of new features and upgrades. and its not dead.
lol yes they do, but it's pretty dead since TOR was announced. Only a few people still post there about how much they miss SWG pre-cu, the rest of us have moved on.
the site will soon undergo a huge revamp with loads of new features and upgrades. and its not dead.
Yeah, no one cares about SWG, most of the large guilds have moved to the TOR forums now, and I was talking about the vet forums for SWG here.
SW: TOR needs to be one thing and one thing only ... SW: TOR
BioWare needs to do what BioWare does and has always done well.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
SWG, while an interesting game didn't feel like Star Wars in the least. What's Star Wars in killing Womp Rats for parts to make traps?
Bioware needs to do what they do best and anyone still left pining for SWG should get over it already.
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
I'm sorry, but when I picked up that box at Best Buy my first thought wasn't "Great! now I can play Uncle Owen and sell things to people!" When I think of Star Wars, I don't think about the guy that kills animals so that he can sell the skin, bones or meat for profit. I'm glad that some of you found that appealing, but when I play a Star Wars game based on the origianl trilogy I want a game with blasters firing, Bounty Hunters going after smugglers and criminals, Smugglers who actually smuggle stuff,loyalty of troops enforced,real consequences for changing sides,no jedi anywhere etc.etc.etc. THat's not having a narrow mind. That's called high expectations which I'm sad to say was never met no matter how many times they revamped the game.They didn;t even bother to have fighters for the first year and half of the game. Give me a break. Half of Star Wars is about the combat happening in space. How can you make a game called "Star WARS" and not bother with space?
At least with this game, Bioware is making a real effort to make the game FEEL like Star Wars.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
and why not?
its not like jedi were killing womp rats before the nge... it was ordinary citizens such as marksmen, scouts and the like. if you believe that is not star wars then you and i have a different view of what starwars is, yours being far much narrower.
What is Star Wars about that? That age in the Star Wars timeline was ripe for adventure. Adventure that focused solely on the common guy rising up to be a hero. They failed completely to bring that across.
When I play an MMO, I want to feel like something more than just some jerk hunting rats or watching a wookiee dance at the cantina. I want to feel like I'm a part of the war. I want to rise beyond killing womp rat #345506895323 or even Stormtrooper #4509402958 for XP, but feel like I'm on my war to becoming one of the legends of the SW universe. That's what all the canon material is about. When did anything about SW focus on the simple rodian eating a rat?
My veiw of the SW universe may be narrower, but it's certainly more exciting and more true to the source material.