I don't think we played the same game. ^_^;;;; DC and EM would eat me alive after level 20 or so. There were places where you could solo low mobs as blm, whm, pld maybe.. But for the most part trying to solo level any class besides bst would be a serious waste of time, especially impossible to do if you are on your first jobs. Once you have gil then it gets easier as you can buy reraise items and what not. But still...
Oh we played the same game, It is very possible to solo to 75 even if you fought EP. You would be insane to do that, however thats not the point. The point is grouping had better perks thus people grouped. Where is the line for a happy medium? I dont know its never been found. I honestly dont think there is one. 2 different game play styles. Just like there is no hapy medium for casual vs hardcore.
Where is the happy medium for Good vs Evil? Theres not one because what they stand for is ALWAYS at odds with each other.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Where is the line for a happy medium? I dont know its never been found. I honestly dont think there is one. 2 different game play styles. Just like there is no hapy medium for casual vs hardcore. Where is the happy medium for Good vs Evil? Theres not one because what they stand for is ALWAYS at odds with each other.
Oh there is a line, it's not because no one's discovered it yet that it isn't there ^_^ And there is no such thing as good and evil, there's just people who are drawn to do good deeds, those that are drawn to bad and those who don't do anything at all.
I really dislike black and white views because that's not reality.
Oh and I'm reactivating my FFXI account, how's that for jumping the gun? )
Where is the line for a happy medium? I dont know its never been found. I honestly dont think there is one. 2 different game play styles. Just like there is no hapy medium for casual vs hardcore. Where is the happy medium for Good vs Evil? Theres not one because what they stand for is ALWAYS at odds with each other.
Oh there is a line, it's not because no one's discovered it yet that it isn't there ^_^ And there is no such thing as good and evil, there's just people who are drawn to do good deeds, those that are drawn to bad and those who don't do anything at all.
I really dislike black and white views because that's not reality.
But choosing to do nothing at all is as evil as the ones choosing to do evil.
Black and white is very much reality. You can cleaverly work a gray area in but you eaither are or your not, its thats simple. Trying to justify a gray area just stirs the water.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I know whats good to you may be evil to me but thats an irrelevant point. Every culture has differnt views on it. Where the point is whats on one side theres always the oppisite on the other side. You either follow it or you dont, you either are or your not.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I know whats good to you may be evil to me but thats an irrelevant point. Every culture has differnt views on it. Where the point is whats on one side theres always the oppisite on the other side. You either follow it or you dont, you either are or your not.
Yes, but the fact that there is no one way to see anything if you take in the collective beliefs of the populace, mean that everything is contained within a grey area of mixed messages.
Not that I am arguing it, I too tend to look at many things at black and white, it's human nature in my opinion.
You can call me a loser or a nerd or whatever, but honestly alot of those time sinks are what I enjoyed about FFXI, spending a hour trying to get a group togeather just to go to the dunes and find out some one is out in windurst and won't be here for 2 hours. Sitting around chatting with people who are there to have fun in the game. Or buying a hatchet and spending hours cutting down trees, or trying to figure out the sesions and the elements to grow the best plants. It was alot of fun. Even if I could only play for a hour that day I would still get on and run around, chatting with people in my linkshell....It was truly an experiance that I will never forget.
And I also play'd wow. and it was/is more of a solo game, which is why I did not enjoy it. I didn't like how I was at level 65 before I really "needed" to group. I didn't like when I did group if I didn't jump on the macro fast enough, and have just enough DPS or if I had gear that was 3 levels old I was a "F*** NOOB! GET OFF".....it just wasn't as much fun. Sure I had people that I played with. But alot of times you just play with people you don't know, and unlike FFXI they where just hostil and mean. Which isn't fun. Which is why I stop'd playing....
And I think alot of people who say they "want a solo optioned game" really don't know what they want. They have play'd game like WOW and EVE, and the grouping has left a bad tast in there mouth, because they havn't experienced a real true group game, with a good comunity. I think I speak for alot of people who have play'd FFXI when i say, it is one of a kind.
So why did I say all of that? I have no idea. bored at work I suppose.
Well, what you said are words of wisdom that the readers on this forum should probably jot down. What many do not realize is that easy rewards are not valued and that absence of downtime leaves no room for socializing. Socializing is the heart of these MMO's, I think.
And I think alot of people who say they "want a solo optioned game" really don't know what they want. They have play'd game like WOW and EVE, and the grouping has left a bad tast in there mouth, because they havn't experienced a real true group game, with a good comunity. I think I speak for alot of people who have play'd FFXI when i say, it is one of a kind. So why did I say all of that? I have no idea. bored at work I suppose.
Excuse me but I know exactly what I want BECAUSE I have played games like FFXI and EVE (shudders) and WoW, Ryzom, Vanguard, Eq2 and name it I've played it.
Yes FFXI is an excellent game and one of kind, but that doesn't negate it's flaws.
I don't think you understand where optional soloists come from. Let me ask you how old are you? Are you married, or in a long term relationship? Do you have a job, or maybe two jobs? Do you have children? Or other family members or responsibilities in life that require your time?
Veteran players often lament all of these crazy new games that have tossed out everything that worked before in place of something new (i.e., everyone flies, FPS-gameplay, card decks, and other weird stuff). And now we have a game franchise that people have loved, and with a new announcement the excitement is high. It could be the old design elements were true and that all some folks wanted was everyone reset to level 1, a new map and some new gloss upon traditional fantasy MMO design basics.
Yes i agree that MANY players come up with many ridiculous reasons for success but not just vets .
The truth is as in my case,i just appreciate a game that shows great effort in development.If a game just throws together a bunch of junk that i can get anywhere else,i won't be bothered.I have preferences,but in reality i could not care what type of game it is,as long as it is done right.
Doing a game right,per my definition,is a game that looks at every angle for every type of player.You cannot make a game that is of one niche idea...cough AION flying /cough,you must have a large plan for your game one witch makes a lot of people happy.
PVP is not one of those ideas.PVP is an idea that makes only a select few happy and in every PVP fight there is rarely a chance to make more than 50 % happy,a failed idea from the start.This is where Square Enix brilliance comes in.Their thought design is one of hardship,forcing players to grow together by helping each other through the hardships.SE knows MMOPRG's SHOULD be about an entire game design based around the ENTIRE community,this is formula that will ALWAYS work year after year.
When you play FFXI and endure some of the time consuming content,it is VERY satisfying once you complete the task.Playing games that give you everything ,handed on a platter,you will always be begging for more,because there is no satisfaction.
I think this shows it is not about "OLD SCHOOL" but even those players that could not afford the time or effort,still realize Square Enix is the master at desgining a MMORPG.When you play a Final Fantasy game,you know you are playing something unique not copied,you feel like you are in a whole new experience,you cannot say that about other games.
The one thing that Square does,that may or may not be smart,is that they keep a lot of things hidden in a game.So many players will leave thinking the game does not offer everything,only because they did not understand or realize there was more to offer.They might also make the game mechanics a little offbeat,and some players do not have the wil lpower to learn anything different ,so again they will quit.I think by this time around ,everyone knows what to expect and may cut Square a little more slack.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Make grouping optional. Give it some perks that soloing doesn't have, but to force people to group to do anything? That game model is way out of style these days and appeals to a very small crowd.
How would this be different than any other game. All MMO's have perks to grouping. If you give it to much perks to where people want to group, then the game automatically turns to forced grouping. Again you could solo to 75 in FFXI if wanted to, why did people group because you got alot more xp in a pt than solo.
Hmmm soloing to 75 in FFXI is impossible unless it's beastmaster. Well it could be possible now with the oupost runs. But it didn't used to be. And by impossible I mean by your average joe player.
Also FFXI is still going to be supported...
Actually, the addition of Dancer and Blue Mage has opened other options as well. I've seen people with /DNC take on some pretty tough fights and win handily.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
And I think alot of people who say they "want a solo optioned game" really don't know what they want. They have play'd game like WOW and EVE, and the grouping has left a bad tast in there mouth, because they havn't experienced a real true group game, with a good comunity. I think I speak for alot of people who have play'd FFXI when i say, it is one of a kind. So why did I say all of that? I have no idea. bored at work I suppose.
Excuse me but I know exactly what I want BECAUSE I have played games like FFXI and EVE (shudders) and WoW, Ryzom, Vanguard, Eq2 and name it I've played it.
Yes FFXI is an excellent game and one of kind, but that doesn't negate it's flaws.
I don't think you understand where optional soloists come from. Let me ask you how old are you? Are you married, or in a long term relationship? Do you have a job, or maybe two jobs? Do you have children? Or other family members or responsibilities in life that require your time?
Lack of time is not a reason its an excuse. Your question wasnt directed at me but I will still answer it because the time excuse strikes a nerve with me. I work anywhere from 50-70 hours a week in the oil field. (that might change since the economy is in the crapper) I still find time to go to the gym a couple hours a day, and play a game a few hours a day. I have no problem with playing a huge "timesink" of a game. I would much much rather have something to work for than be able to get stuff easy. I am sure I am in the vast minority here, but lack of time is an excuse only. If someone is so worried about their time they need to ask themselves if they should be playing an MMO to begin with?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
of time is not a reason its an excuse. Your question wasnt directed at me but I will still answer it because the time excuse strikes a nerve with me. I work anywhere from 50-70 hours a week in the oil field. (that might change since the economy is in the crapper) I still find time to go to the gym a couple hours a day, and play a game a few hours a day. I have no problem with playing a huge "timesink" of a game. I would much much rather have something to work for than be able to get stuff easy. I am sure I am in the vast minority here, but lack of time is an excuse only. If someone is so worried about their time they need to ask themselves if they should be playing an MMO to begin with?
My time gets interupted all the time, I can't go and grind for 3 -4 hours for measly xp anymore as I used to and I can't afford to go to bed late at any day of the week. Maybe once a month or so.
I don't give a rat's ass what your scheduling is like or what you are able to pull off, start thinking that not everyone can play the way you do. AGAIN and get this through your head, I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
I won't be replying to anymore of your posts since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
I'm a casual player, but it's not due to lack of time, it's all about how I play. I'm not worried about losing time to these games, but rather wasting it. I'm looking to be entertained, not slogging through something that equates to a second job. I enjoy spending time in a MMO, but not those that put in mechanics specifically to waste my playing time. Downtime, long spawn timers, erratic quest drops, raid design, looking for group all of these things and more are nothing more than wasting time and have absolutely no entertainment value for me and for a lot of people like me.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Toss a couple of kids onto a full time job and you find yourself with maybe an hour or two to relax by yourself in the evening, once or twice a week.
Some people DO have very limited free time. That's a reason, not an excuse. Big difference kiddo. For working 70 hours a week you certainly have a lot of time to mess around on forums...
Its the oil feild I can get called out right now and not be back for 2-3 days. It just so happens that today was a shop day so I snuck out a noon while I could.
But I do not have kids I am sure that would kill any MMO time.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by WSIMike Well, if the mobs are "tuned" to provide a serious challenge to a soloer, then sure, that would be correct.
However, if you're fighting typical mobs that can be taken down quickly, then it's a lot easier to just grind out mobs solo and never have to interact with another player than to put together a party that then is required to communicate and cooperate with each other, paying attention to things like aggro management, etc. etc.
Many players find anything more involved than "hitting the mob 'til it's dead" to require more effort than they want to put forth.
I would never want to steamroll mobs one after another. I'd find that dull.
You kinda highlighted my objection; the "cooperation with other players" always seems to lead to one-dimensionality.
The meatshield holds agro, the DPS spam their attack sequence, the healers spam their healing spells.
In grouping to cooperate with other players; you're actually doing less.
I think the genre has (or should have) progressed far enough technologically to be able to provide a scaling mechanic so that mobs/groups of mobs could be challenging to both. Tabula Rasa had this to an extent; you could solo an instance or group up which resulted in the instance containing many more mobs.
It was a simple thing; more players = more mobs .. but it was somewhat effective.
See, I guess I see it from a different perspective.
I find soloing to be one dimensional... It's me and the mob whacking at each other. Kinda "blah". Sure I can use a variety of skills in a certain order that allows for greater damage, etc. etc. But in a group, aggro management, healing, coordination for things like skill-chains/combos and all comes into play and makes it much more enjoyable.
When it really becomes fun is when you've got that really tough pull... or another mob (or more than one) has/have wandered into your camp and now you have to really think fast and coordinate even better as a group to survive the encounter. Those moments make it all the more fun to me... seeing people really step up, using their knowledge of their class and skills to help the group pull through.
The other aspect of grouping is that I enjoy chatting with fellow party-members in the process; there's also that social aspect of it. I've made many friends in FFXI that way, some which I still talk to to this day, years after we first happened to end up in the same group.
Incidentally... FFXI and, to a degree, Lineage 2, are the only two MMOs I've ever played where I met and befriended people in the game. Probably not coincidentally, both those MMOs place a level of importance on grouping, communication and coordination. In other MMOs... WoW, LoTRO, EQ2, etc. etc... the acquaintances I've made have been fleeting... Their interest in me extended to me helping them finish a quest or kill a mob... Beyond that, they didn't care and would simply drop group and be on their way, never to be seen or spoken to again. I can't name a single person I've ever met in another MMO that I continued to talk to beyond that game, much less became friends with... and I've tried.
So maybe the value I place on grouping isn't solely in the combat and group dynamics itself.. it's the interaction with other players as well.
I *do* agree with scalable encounters being a good idea. Have them scale in difficulty based on their relative level range (ie. a level 10 mob is never going to be challenging enough for a level 20 player, etc) and have them more or less difficult based on the size of the group when they're encountered.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
Oh I see the the other side of the spectrum. Where I get lost is that every single new MMO game that gets announced all the boards are all identical (that is if its a PvE game). They all want the same exact thing time in and time out. They want a challenge but they want it casual friendly, they want the best of both worlds and that is un-reasonable and un-realist. The fact is challenges take effort and time, if it didnt it wouldnt be a challenege. The cold truth is that one guy hit the nail on the head when he said people dont know what they want in an MMO. They want things that contradict each other, that just proves his point.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
Oh I see the the other side of the spectrum. Where I get lost is that every single new MMO game that gets announced all the boards are all identical (that is if its a PvE game). They all want the same exact thing time in and time out. They want a challenge but they want it casual friendly, they want the best of both worlds and that is un-reasonable and un-realist. The fact is challenges take effort and time, if it didnt it wouldnt be a challenege. The cold truth is that one guy hit the nail on the head when he said people dont know what they want in an MMO. They want things that contradict each other, that just proves his point.
Yeah, I notice that contradiction a lot, too, and agree that that's a core problem with many people... They want something that isn't feasible.
They want challenging gameplay... that's soloable.
They want epic, raid-level boss battles... that are soloable (I've seen more and more demands for this)
They want a MMO with a huge population... that they can solo exclusively in.
They want challenging quests beyond just "kill x of y"... that can be solo'd.
Basically.. they want a single player game with other people around. It might sound like an over-simplification, but when you read the desires and demands of many people across various different forums for different games.. that's kinda what it sounds like. The concept of an epic raid battle being soloable itself is just ridiculous. It's not a "raid" if it's a solo fight. It then simply becomes a really difficult but soloable boss encounter.
This doesn't apply to those who like grouping but also like to solo at times (even I fit that category). This pertains to those who regard the very idea of grouping, at all, ever, for any reason, under any conditions, like kryptonite to Superman.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You like to raid, so you raid and get nicely rewarded for it. I like to solo, but I don't get nicely rewarded for it. Raiders / Groupers get more content, more rewards, better quality content. LIke it or not, soloers / small groupers are a significant portion of any player base and we deserve to have our play styles treated with the same respect and quality afforded to full groups and raids. No one likes feeling second class, especially in a piece of entertainment software.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Veteran players often lament all of these crazy new games that have tossed out everything that worked before in place of something new (i.e., everyone flies, FPS-gameplay, card decks, and other weird stuff). And now we have a game franchise that people have loved, and with a new announcement the excitement is high. It could be the old design elements were true and that all some folks wanted was everyone reset to level 1, a new map and some new gloss upon traditional fantasy MMO design basics.
I think this only proves that the Final fantasy games have many faithful fans. We shouldn't read more into it yet anyways, FFIV is still somewhat of a mystery and only time will tell if it is truly old school or not.
We have very similar gaming styles WSIMike, I agree with every post you make.
I dislike the solo mentality in MMO's it makes no sense. If I wanted to play solo I will play a console game. Or a single player PC game. I just cant figure out why so many love the solo idea. MMO's are just a single player game with a chat box now. We will have to see but if FFXIV caters to this it will most likely be my last MMO. This was my last hope for an MMO to provide me with a new challenge. Not all hope is lost solo play can envolve alot of things and the main game can still be group oriented.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
We have very similar gaming styles WSIMike, I agree with every post you make. I dislike the solo mentality in MMO's it makes no sense. If I wanted to play solo I will play a console game. Or a single player PC game. I just cant figure out why so many love the solo idea. MMO's are just a single player game with a chat box now. We will have to see but if FFXIV caters to this it will most likely be my last MMO. This was my last hope for an MMO to provide me with a new challenge. Not all hope is lost solo play can envolve alot of things and the main game can still be group oriented.
You really don't understand it? It typically boils down to a time commitment. A lot of us have very packed "non-gaming" schedules between work, family, friends, etc. When you only have an hour or so (or limited time in general) to log on, then solo play can fill that time. Those same people may only have one day a week where they have a good 4-6+ hours to play and then jump into group content. It seems pretty simple to me.
The key for developers is finding the right balance. Warhammer took it to the extreme where everything is so accessible in terms of joining a group/warband that it feels like you are playing with NPC's most of the time.
Basically.. they want a single player game with other people around. It might sound like an over-simplification, but when you read the desires and demands of many people across various different forums for different games.. that's kinda what it sounds like. The concept of an epic raid battle being soloable itself is just ridiculous. It's not a "raid" if it's a solo fight. It then simply becomes a really difficult but soloable boss encounter.
Who are those people? I don't think I've met them yet.
I'm starting to think that whenever someone says, can it be possible to solo (via one certain class or something similar) people equate that with please give me everything on a silver plater so I don't have too much effort for the rewards. That's not it.
Maybe you guys are talking about how Blizzard keeps making things ever easier in their game, which in a lot of cases is a real shame like the last dungeon patch can't remember which raid it was but it was made a lot easier.... I don't agree with that, adding smaller group raids sure, but don't change what's already there into easy mode that cheats your new players of the experience imo anyway.
But mostly people who do things slower and/or chooses to solo already know it will take them longer to reach their goals and that's something we're ok with. Maybe it's the devs that misinterpret what players want and piss everyone off.
Also denying a different way (but no less challenging) to get a certain reward for people who play differently is just plain selfish in my view also. But I don't fear on that end because FFXI already has that in place, where it's possible to get your J boots in different ways. (It's j boots right?)
We have very similar gaming styles WSIMike, I agree with every post you make. I dislike the solo mentality in MMO's it makes no sense. If I wanted to play solo I will play a console game. Or a single player PC game. I just cant figure out why so many love the solo idea. MMO's are just a single player game with a chat box now. We will have to see but if FFXIV caters to this it will most likely be my last MMO. This was my last hope for an MMO to provide me with a new challenge. Not all hope is lost solo play can envolve alot of things and the main game can still be group oriented.
It doesn't really matter if players like you can or cannot figure it out. We'll keep pushing our agenda till a gaming company finally gives us what we want. Just like groupers have an agenda and raiders have an agenda, all of which are just as vocal on these and official forums about getting content that caters to them.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Once upon a time I got excited because there was going to be another game ... like one I had enjoyed before.
Then I realized that the sequel wasn't always as good... Then again you read books or watch movies you know this.
I'm not really even sure what old school is supposed to have been anymore.
I mean I watch discussions.. of what people say they miss or claim we all miss. Things they say were impossible to do "old school" and yet... I did those impossible things.
You know what I miss? A game I buy and 30 days later still want to play. You can't define that... beyond the statement. All I want is a game I actually want to log into a month later... 6 months later.
I don't care how often I log in.. I just want to WANT to play... to like to play it.
I enjoyed FFXI alright... possibly the only down side was it had been live in Japan for a year before the US had it and we didn't get new servers.
So in the sense that it might be enjoyable to me.. and be a fresh launch ... ya I guess that part is "cool".
Comments
lol!! I love it! Damn rights!
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
I don't think we played the same game. ^_^;;;; DC and EM would eat me alive after level 20 or so. There were places where you could solo low mobs as blm, whm, pld maybe.. But for the most part trying to solo level any class besides bst would be a serious waste of time, especially impossible to do if you are on your first jobs. Once you have gil then it gets easier as you can buy reraise items and what not. But still...
Oh we played the same game, It is very possible to solo to 75 even if you fought EP. You would be insane to do that, however thats not the point. The point is grouping had better perks thus people grouped. Where is the line for a happy medium? I dont know its never been found. I honestly dont think there is one. 2 different game play styles. Just like there is no hapy medium for casual vs hardcore.
Where is the happy medium for Good vs Evil? Theres not one because what they stand for is ALWAYS at odds with each other.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Oh there is a line, it's not because no one's discovered it yet that it isn't there ^_^ And there is no such thing as good and evil, there's just people who are drawn to do good deeds, those that are drawn to bad and those who don't do anything at all.
I really dislike black and white views because that's not reality.
Oh and I'm reactivating my FFXI account, how's that for jumping the gun?
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(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Oh there is a line, it's not because no one's discovered it yet that it isn't there ^_^ And there is no such thing as good and evil, there's just people who are drawn to do good deeds, those that are drawn to bad and those who don't do anything at all.
I really dislike black and white views because that's not reality.
But choosing to do nothing at all is as evil as the ones choosing to do evil.
Black and white is very much reality. You can cleaverly work a gray area in but you eaither are or your not, its thats simple. Trying to justify a gray area just stirs the water.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I know whats good to you may be evil to me but thats an irrelevant point. Every culture has differnt views on it. Where the point is whats on one side theres always the oppisite on the other side. You either follow it or you dont, you either are or your not.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, but the fact that there is no one way to see anything if you take in the collective beliefs of the populace, mean that everything is contained within a grey area of mixed messages.
Not that I am arguing it, I too tend to look at many things at black and white, it's human nature in my opinion.
Well, what you said are words of wisdom that the readers on this forum should probably jot down. What many do not realize is that easy rewards are not valued and that absence of downtime leaves no room for socializing. Socializing is the heart of these MMO's, I think.
Excuse me but I know exactly what I want BECAUSE I have played games like FFXI and EVE (shudders) and WoW, Ryzom, Vanguard, Eq2 and name it I've played it.
Yes FFXI is an excellent game and one of kind, but that doesn't negate it's flaws.
I don't think you understand where optional soloists come from. Let me ask you how old are you? Are you married, or in a long term relationship? Do you have a job, or maybe two jobs? Do you have children? Or other family members or responsibilities in life that require your time?
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Yes i agree that MANY players come up with many ridiculous reasons for success but not just vets .
The truth is as in my case,i just appreciate a game that shows great effort in development.If a game just throws together a bunch of junk that i can get anywhere else,i won't be bothered.I have preferences,but in reality i could not care what type of game it is,as long as it is done right.
Doing a game right,per my definition,is a game that looks at every angle for every type of player.You cannot make a game that is of one niche idea...cough AION flying /cough,you must have a large plan for your game one witch makes a lot of people happy.
PVP is not one of those ideas.PVP is an idea that makes only a select few happy and in every PVP fight there is rarely a chance to make more than 50 % happy,a failed idea from the start.This is where Square Enix brilliance comes in.Their thought design is one of hardship,forcing players to grow together by helping each other through the hardships.SE knows MMOPRG's SHOULD be about an entire game design based around the ENTIRE community,this is formula that will ALWAYS work year after year.
When you play FFXI and endure some of the time consuming content,it is VERY satisfying once you complete the task.Playing games that give you everything ,handed on a platter,you will always be begging for more,because there is no satisfaction.
I think this shows it is not about "OLD SCHOOL" but even those players that could not afford the time or effort,still realize Square Enix is the master at desgining a MMORPG.When you play a Final Fantasy game,you know you are playing something unique not copied,you feel like you are in a whole new experience,you cannot say that about other games.
The one thing that Square does,that may or may not be smart,is that they keep a lot of things hidden in a game.So many players will leave thinking the game does not offer everything,only because they did not understand or realize there was more to offer.They might also make the game mechanics a little offbeat,and some players do not have the wil lpower to learn anything different ,so again they will quit.I think by this time around ,everyone knows what to expect and may cut Square a little more slack.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
How would this be different than any other game. All MMO's have perks to grouping. If you give it to much perks to where people want to group, then the game automatically turns to forced grouping. Again you could solo to 75 in FFXI if wanted to, why did people group because you got alot more xp in a pt than solo.
Hmmm soloing to 75 in FFXI is impossible unless it's beastmaster. Well it could be possible now with the oupost runs. But it didn't used to be. And by impossible I mean by your average joe player.
Also FFXI is still going to be supported...
Actually, the addition of Dancer and Blue Mage has opened other options as well. I've seen people with /DNC take on some pretty tough fights and win handily.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Excuse me but I know exactly what I want BECAUSE I have played games like FFXI and EVE (shudders) and WoW, Ryzom, Vanguard, Eq2 and name it I've played it.
Yes FFXI is an excellent game and one of kind, but that doesn't negate it's flaws.
I don't think you understand where optional soloists come from. Let me ask you how old are you? Are you married, or in a long term relationship? Do you have a job, or maybe two jobs? Do you have children? Or other family members or responsibilities in life that require your time?
Lack of time is not a reason its an excuse. Your question wasnt directed at me but I will still answer it because the time excuse strikes a nerve with me. I work anywhere from 50-70 hours a week in the oil field. (that might change since the economy is in the crapper) I still find time to go to the gym a couple hours a day, and play a game a few hours a day. I have no problem with playing a huge "timesink" of a game. I would much much rather have something to work for than be able to get stuff easy. I am sure I am in the vast minority here, but lack of time is an excuse only. If someone is so worried about their time they need to ask themselves if they should be playing an MMO to begin with?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
My time gets interupted all the time, I can't go and grind for 3 -4 hours for measly xp anymore as I used to and I can't afford to go to bed late at any day of the week. Maybe once a month or so.
I don't give a rat's ass what your scheduling is like or what you are able to pull off, start thinking that not everyone can play the way you do. AGAIN and get this through your head, I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
I won't be replying to anymore of your posts since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
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I'm a casual player, but it's not due to lack of time, it's all about how I play. I'm not worried about losing time to these games, but rather wasting it. I'm looking to be entertained, not slogging through something that equates to a second job. I enjoy spending time in a MMO, but not those that put in mechanics specifically to waste my playing time. Downtime, long spawn timers, erratic quest drops, raid design, looking for group all of these things and more are nothing more than wasting time and have absolutely no entertainment value for me and for a lot of people like me.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Me too, very well said.
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Its the oil feild I can get called out right now and not be back for 2-3 days. It just so happens that today was a shop day so I snuck out a noon while I could.
But I do not have kids I am sure that would kill any MMO time.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I would never want to steamroll mobs one after another. I'd find that dull.
You kinda highlighted my objection; the "cooperation with other players" always seems to lead to one-dimensionality.
The meatshield holds agro, the DPS spam their attack sequence, the healers spam their healing spells.
In grouping to cooperate with other players; you're actually doing less.
I think the genre has (or should have) progressed far enough technologically to be able to provide a scaling mechanic so that mobs/groups of mobs could be challenging to both. Tabula Rasa had this to an extent; you could solo an instance or group up which resulted in the instance containing many more mobs.
It was a simple thing; more players = more mobs .. but it was somewhat effective.
See, I guess I see it from a different perspective.
I find soloing to be one dimensional... It's me and the mob whacking at each other. Kinda "blah". Sure I can use a variety of skills in a certain order that allows for greater damage, etc. etc. But in a group, aggro management, healing, coordination for things like skill-chains/combos and all comes into play and makes it much more enjoyable.
When it really becomes fun is when you've got that really tough pull... or another mob (or more than one) has/have wandered into your camp and now you have to really think fast and coordinate even better as a group to survive the encounter. Those moments make it all the more fun to me... seeing people really step up, using their knowledge of their class and skills to help the group pull through.
The other aspect of grouping is that I enjoy chatting with fellow party-members in the process; there's also that social aspect of it. I've made many friends in FFXI that way, some which I still talk to to this day, years after we first happened to end up in the same group.
Incidentally... FFXI and, to a degree, Lineage 2, are the only two MMOs I've ever played where I met and befriended people in the game. Probably not coincidentally, both those MMOs place a level of importance on grouping, communication and coordination. In other MMOs... WoW, LoTRO, EQ2, etc. etc... the acquaintances I've made have been fleeting... Their interest in me extended to me helping them finish a quest or kill a mob... Beyond that, they didn't care and would simply drop group and be on their way, never to be seen or spoken to again. I can't name a single person I've ever met in another MMO that I continued to talk to beyond that game, much less became friends with... and I've tried.
So maybe the value I place on grouping isn't solely in the combat and group dynamics itself.. it's the interaction with other players as well.
I *do* agree with scalable encounters being a good idea. Have them scale in difficulty based on their relative level range (ie. a level 10 mob is never going to be challenging enough for a level 20 player, etc) and have them more or less difficult based on the size of the group when they're encountered.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
Oh I see the the other side of the spectrum. Where I get lost is that every single new MMO game that gets announced all the boards are all identical (that is if its a PvE game). They all want the same exact thing time in and time out. They want a challenge but they want it casual friendly, they want the best of both worlds and that is un-reasonable and un-realist. The fact is challenges take effort and time, if it didnt it wouldnt be a challenege. The cold truth is that one guy hit the nail on the head when he said people dont know what they want in an MMO. They want things that contradict each other, that just proves his point.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'm not asking for a simple easy peasy game either, make the difference, I enjoy challenge but it better be worth my time. There's plenty of instances in the old game where it just wasn't worth it and reached a point where it sucked all the fun out of the game.
since you refuse to see anything besides your narrow view.
Oh I see the the other side of the spectrum. Where I get lost is that every single new MMO game that gets announced all the boards are all identical (that is if its a PvE game). They all want the same exact thing time in and time out. They want a challenge but they want it casual friendly, they want the best of both worlds and that is un-reasonable and un-realist. The fact is challenges take effort and time, if it didnt it wouldnt be a challenege. The cold truth is that one guy hit the nail on the head when he said people dont know what they want in an MMO. They want things that contradict each other, that just proves his point.
Yeah, I notice that contradiction a lot, too, and agree that that's a core problem with many people... They want something that isn't feasible.
They want challenging gameplay... that's soloable.
They want epic, raid-level boss battles... that are soloable (I've seen more and more demands for this)
They want a MMO with a huge population... that they can solo exclusively in.
They want challenging quests beyond just "kill x of y"... that can be solo'd.
Basically.. they want a single player game with other people around. It might sound like an over-simplification, but when you read the desires and demands of many people across various different forums for different games.. that's kinda what it sounds like. The concept of an epic raid battle being soloable itself is just ridiculous. It's not a "raid" if it's a solo fight. It then simply becomes a really difficult but soloable boss encounter.
This doesn't apply to those who like grouping but also like to solo at times (even I fit that category). This pertains to those who regard the very idea of grouping, at all, ever, for any reason, under any conditions, like kryptonite to Superman.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You like to raid, so you raid and get nicely rewarded for it. I like to solo, but I don't get nicely rewarded for it. Raiders / Groupers get more content, more rewards, better quality content. LIke it or not, soloers / small groupers are a significant portion of any player base and we deserve to have our play styles treated with the same respect and quality afforded to full groups and raids. No one likes feeling second class, especially in a piece of entertainment software.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think this only proves that the Final fantasy games have many faithful fans. We shouldn't read more into it yet anyways, FFIV is still somewhat of a mystery and only time will tell if it is truly old school or not.
We have very similar gaming styles WSIMike, I agree with every post you make.
I dislike the solo mentality in MMO's it makes no sense. If I wanted to play solo I will play a console game. Or a single player PC game. I just cant figure out why so many love the solo idea. MMO's are just a single player game with a chat box now. We will have to see but if FFXIV caters to this it will most likely be my last MMO. This was my last hope for an MMO to provide me with a new challenge. Not all hope is lost solo play can envolve alot of things and the main game can still be group oriented.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
You really don't understand it? It typically boils down to a time commitment. A lot of us have very packed "non-gaming" schedules between work, family, friends, etc. When you only have an hour or so (or limited time in general) to log on, then solo play can fill that time. Those same people may only have one day a week where they have a good 4-6+ hours to play and then jump into group content. It seems pretty simple to me.
The key for developers is finding the right balance. Warhammer took it to the extreme where everything is so accessible in terms of joining a group/warband that it feels like you are playing with NPC's most of the time.
Who are those people? I don't think I've met them yet.
I'm starting to think that whenever someone says, can it be possible to solo (via one certain class or something similar) people equate that with please give me everything on a silver plater so I don't have too much effort for the rewards. That's not it.
Maybe you guys are talking about how Blizzard keeps making things ever easier in their game, which in a lot of cases is a real shame like the last dungeon patch can't remember which raid it was but it was made a lot easier.... I don't agree with that, adding smaller group raids sure, but don't change what's already there into easy mode that cheats your new players of the experience imo anyway.
But mostly people who do things slower and/or chooses to solo already know it will take them longer to reach their goals and that's something we're ok with. Maybe it's the devs that misinterpret what players want and piss everyone off.
Also denying a different way (but no less challenging) to get a certain reward for people who play differently is just plain selfish in my view also. But I don't fear on that end because FFXI already has that in place, where it's possible to get your J boots in different ways. (It's j boots right?)
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It doesn't really matter if players like you can or cannot figure it out. We'll keep pushing our agenda till a gaming company finally gives us what we want. Just like groupers have an agenda and raiders have an agenda, all of which are just as vocal on these and official forums about getting content that caters to them.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Once upon a time I got excited because there was going to be another game ... like one I had enjoyed before.
Then I realized that the sequel wasn't always as good... Then again you read books or watch movies you know this.
I'm not really even sure what old school is supposed to have been anymore.
I mean I watch discussions.. of what people say they miss or claim we all miss. Things they say were impossible to do "old school" and yet... I did those impossible things.
You know what I miss? A game I buy and 30 days later still want to play. You can't define that... beyond the statement. All I want is a game I actually want to log into a month later... 6 months later.
I don't care how often I log in.. I just want to WANT to play... to like to play it.
I enjoyed FFXI alright... possibly the only down side was it had been live in Japan for a year before the US had it and we didn't get new servers.
So in the sense that it might be enjoyable to me.. and be a fresh launch ... ya I guess that part is "cool".