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Why do you Hate WOW ?
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- Expansions that don't 'expand' the game as much as lengthen the linear train tracks players are directed down.
- Despite talent trees, the game still offers very shallow character development.
- WoW borrowed questing from other games, but instead of innovating they dumbed it down and made trivial fed-ex & click 10 baskets the standard for mmo 'content'.
- The community
- The fact that their success led to tenacity and a reluctance to dare try anything new or innovative. Instead years later we see the same content just re-decorated and recolored.
- Disposable community. No need to answer for being an ass, rename your character or transfer servers, not that you really need to make a good impression or earn the respect of others in a game where there's no dependence on that anyway. Piss off your raiding guild? Ninja loot one too many times? Guild hop, the 'content' is so accessible now any collective group of mutants with some finger nubs left can have the best of the best. No consequences for behaving in a less than socially acceptable way when it's so easy to disappear leads to less than pleasant communities.
- The community.
- The shallowness of gameplay and narrowness of scope.
- What the game did to the landscape of MMOs. The genre was expanding, it was an exciting time, the possibilities were near endless. These things could go just about anywhere. Then WoW came along, re-did everything already done, dumbed it down and made sure it was palatable to as many people as possible. And here is where we've stalled out for the most part over the past 5 years. McDonalds on every corner. On one hand you can say we can't blame the game developers for capitalizing the publics desire for fast food trash, but we can blame them for choosing safe profit over creativity in a creative field. Now everyother business on the planet that creates games is tripping over themselves trying to grab as much money as they can by churning out clones of this hag-scab game.
Hopefully we'll see some passionate and creative people create a gameworld soon because of a strong belief in what they're creating and in their new ideas, despite the fact that the numbers indicate an aspect of the public wants more watered down imposters.
- And finally, the community.
I don't hate it (obviously as I still play it), but I am becoming quite bored. I really, cannot even blame wow for this either. I've played since launch, and I can't expect a game to stay fun forever...even Starcraft got boring eventually. But I do blame them for bringing in some of the newer palyers that don't appreciate challenges that used to be in the game. I really miss the feeling of 15 man UBRS and 10 man strat and scholo. It also doesn't help that I was in college and had alot of freetime to play before, and have since lost that time after graduation.
So basically, for me at least, WoW has lost that new game feeling and i play it simply because I am a warcraft lore-junkie (yes, some people simply play because they are married to the lore behind a game)
It sucks being a hardcore player at heart but a casual player in availability. ~NightCloak
Old school gamers look back at their old school games with the thickest pair of rose colored glasses on. I myself am an old school gamer. I've been playing since 99 and loved AC, EQ, and AO. I look at the games out now and can't get that feeling back that I used to get when I played those games. Then I start to look back more critically and remember all the frustration I felt with the constant grinding of mobs for xp or a .002% chance of a drop of equipment. The hopelessness of losing levels and everything because I can't reach corpses I lost. What kept me going back? It was the community and friends I made that kept those worlds fun to visit. Grinding for hours is more entertaining with a group of guildies to BS with. There were plenty of idiots, griefers, etc. You just put them on ignore or accepted them as a part of the game and made the best of it. But all the rest of the game was a mash up of frustration and tedium. Only I didn't know any better because they were all like that.
Now WoW comes along and wraps it up in a prettier package. It has much less grind with all the quests available. I define grinding as having to kill the same mobs over and over because no more viable option is available for advancement. Of course WoW has grind. What mmorpg doesn't? It just hides it better than most. Gamers today want define grind as anything they don't like. And what game has no negatives? None that I've played.
I don't see the WoW community as any different than any other game community I've been a part of. It has more immature players to put on ignore, but it also has a vastly higher population than most other mmorpgs, so it makes sense. Much of the immature behavior I see comes from the other side that can't just ignore the many stupid comments flowing on /gen chat and move on. They have to get involved and argue with them for hours and make themselves a part of the immature WoW community. Just look at many of the threads and posts from the gamers that "hate" the WoW community. Not much maturity showing. Looks like the other side of the same coin to me.
I also think it's ridiculous to hate on WoW when you admit to having played it for several months or YEARS. If you played a game for that long, there must have been something you liked about it. I have more respect for the gamers that say they tried it for a day or a week and quit. I don't buy the idea that I have to play a game for a while to get to the fun. I played WoW on and off for a couple of years and now find it boring. Does that mean I should now hate it because it can no longer keep my interest? It did it's job by keeping me coming back for that long.
And to all the players who like to perpetuate the stereotype that all gamers are 12 year olds or 30 years old fat guys living in their mother's basement, grow up. You are a gamer too. Do you honestly thing we're all one or the other EXCEPT you. You are the one buff, cool, and enlightened mmorpg gamer in existence? It's just another way for you to differentiate yourself from mmorpg community to make yourself feel special or unique.
END OF RANT
I don't HATE wow, but I'm disappointed in it. It used to be a lot more fun than it is now, ever since everything started shrinking. PvP went from massive battlegrounds to tiny little arenas. Raids went from armies of 40 people to 25, and then to UBRS groups if 10. The bar kept getting lowered and lowered, and a bar that can be overcome without really trying isn't a very exciting bar. Oh, and Northrend was really boring to adventure through. Even Silithus had more character to it.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
This sounds so "peace be unto you" but it is the truth. While I'm opposed to the way certain companies are run and how certain company heads act I could never see myself "hating" like so many seem to be willing to do.
One of the last comments I read actually pointed it out to me where basically a guy said he hates wow for the same reason he hates wal mart microsoft and the US and it's why I'm so skeptical of folks who throw that term around so easily. The bottom line to me is some people find it more enjoyable to be sour as opposed to not and they find any excuse to bash something including happening to be the biggest on the block at something.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I dont "hate" wow or anything for that matter. Having said that, there are definatly things i dislike that wow brung to the genre.
WoWish community - As everyone has said, the old games werent great because of the game per se, it was the community that made them great. WoW opened up that community and in my opinion, not for the better.
WoW marketing - Wow became so big that as we have seen, other deveopers cant seem to get away from thier model. Its not thier fault really, just thier backers wanting wow money.
WoW lite- It brung about the MMO golden rule. Make a game playable by the lowest common denominator. Make progress so easy any person can achieve anything in 1 to 2 hours max.
I could go on but Ill stop there. Basically after all is said and done, the influence and money WoW brung to the genre has actually been detrimental to it on a whole. I would have rather had 1 good game released in the last 4 years instead of the epic amounts of bad games that we have been given. I would have rather had that 500k subs of EQ than the 10 million of wow.
Brilliant!
My reply in red
exactly, my wife plays WoW and it looks decent especially the raiding part. but i just don't want to be associated with that crowd. they are the most obnoxious self righteous fans i have ever seen. if a new game isn't done exactly like WoW they will post about how WoW is much better, throw out sub numbers and all that jazz, to "warn" others from buying the game they are rallying against.
it is the only community that actually hopes other MMORPGs die. look at anytime there is a positive post about sub numbers or something from WAR, AOC or AION. you bet your sweet ass there will be SOMEONE digging through website after website or combing the words for any error to disprove the report.
ask them what MMO they are playing and i bet 90% of them will say WoW.
thats why I hate WoW it has nothing to do with the game, the Majority of its fans are assclowns that should have thier opinions VOIDED on any other MMORPG that is in developement. then maybe every MMO out there wont have to be exactly like WoW.
thats always amazes me you usually get posts "im so bored of WoW after 4 years im done with it" ... then a few sentences later "WoW does X, Y and Z like this, thus this game should do it like that too!"
if your so FN bored of WoW why are you trying to turn this game INTO WOW.
Have you ever listened to how you talk? You act in the same exact manner as the people you complain about. Is it any wonder why you have so many problems with "those" people? You are so busy casting stones at other people you have no idea of the glass house you live in.
yep I would be the first to tell you I am going to be obnoxious toward the WoW fans i speak because yes I do HATE them. I am sick of dealing with these idiots as i have been dealing with them on forums since WoW has released anytime they decide to INFEST their "next" MMO. you try to deal with them rationally but no matter how many times you tell them games can be different and still be successful ... its the same BS.
WoW has millions of Subscribers if this game wants to be successful ...
WoW has millions of Subscribers if this game wants to be successful ...
WoW has millions of Subscribers if this game wants to be successful ...
WoW has millions of Subscribers if this game wants to be successful ...
so yes after hearing that millions of times you become slightly jaded against the WOWtard.
I will go one step further to disagree with what you say. When someone purchases warhammer (for example) they become part of the warhammer community. People do not buy games so they can hope they fail. Furthermore the reason so many people (not just wow players) think games will fail, is because they have been. This is a natural reaction to developers releasing buggy thrashed unfinished games and swindling money from players with lies and hype.
You don't seem to understand that if a new game comes out and has massive performance issues, balance issues, serious lack of content, etc then yes, people are going to return to what offers a better experience. Yes they will make comparisons and the truth of those comparisons may upset you, but it is the truth. I'm fairly certain most people trying new games do NOT want another wow. If they did, they wouldn't not leave wow in the first place. Just to completely disagree with you, I think more people complain about how similar to wow most new games are and NOT that they want them to be more like wow. I don't think you could be further from the truth if you tried to be.
the underlined portion is crap, you must have never beta tested any of the new MMOs. because if you were on their BETA forums you would understand how much crap you are spewing. every MMO beta i have been apart of (and I usually beta test most of them) has the same thing on their forum, these WoWtards infest the forum and just spam it up with how "WoW does X, y and Z better and this game should do those like WoW or this game will fail". lets take Aion for example I don't know how many times i read ...
Xp is too slow, WoW is better in this regard
there are too little of quests, WoW caters to those who enjoy questing to level
Soul Healing is too expensive, its not nearly this punishing in WoW
Quests give way too little exp, in WoW quests are much better form of leveling.
so spare me that WOWtards don't want another WOW, they do they want WoW with Star wars skins, WoW with wings, WoW with Warhammer lore, WoW with fatalities.
When companies start getting their act together and releasing quality games, players will stop complaining. Keep in mind it isn't just wow players complaining about the condition and future of games, it is universal. Despite how hard you try to pin all the flaws on the genre on one group of people, we all have very diverse backgrounds here.
LOL yeah thats what i did its all your fault WoW players, except for the fact that i never said that ... thats what we call a straw man argument.
my posts main point is this ... if you like WoW, GREAT! good for you I am so happy for you. However realize this, games can be successful without having to copy WoWs design elements word for word, and whats "better" is your opinion not fact no matter how many subs it has no matter how much fun YOU'RE having, its still just an opinion.
There needs to be a I hate WoW sub forum. These threads are tired. I'm not entirely which is worse today, the obnoxious WoW fanboy trolls or the obnoxious WoW haters. I'm beginning to believe the latter because I see more of them than actual WoW fans on forums.
in you're mind its not a lie but in my mind it is, thats the beauty of opinions everyone has one. you know what they say about opinions and a**holes right?
you don't like WAR, AOC, Vanguard or whatever and think WoW is better, fantastic I am happy for you. however my problem begins when the self righteous WoWboi tries to ..
1) pass their opinion off as fact, when thats all it is is their opinion ... nothing more. which is what you just tried to do ... congrats you have graduated to WoWtard here is your welfare epic.
2) come to other games forums and posting flames about to i guess try and get people to quit it and convert to WoW. if im on a warhammer, AOC, Vanguard, or whatever game forum. I'm looking to discuss those games not have some self righteous prick try to tell me how much better WoW is. now if WoW does have an idea that can benefit said game then by all means feel free but back it up with more fact than just "Well WoW has 10 million subs so its got to be right... amirite?"
so what if i said EQ2 was better than WoW ... would that be a lie? lets see if the little WoW player can learn something today.
Love the game but the community is SO FREAKING bad that I can't play the game. Why play a game that you have to turn off ALL the chats?
If they made a server for 25+ or 30+ yr old folks, I'd go back with the next expansion. But that's not gonna happen LOL!
Not sure on this. IMO, If you look at those that post such threads, look at some of their profiles (Most say they have played, or are playing WoW), and just really read into what they are saying...they just seem to be trolls from WoW TRYING to ruffle the feathers of those who don't want to hear about it.....and are accomplishing their mission in grand style.
Also, just look at the pattern. You won't see much about that game for a few weeks...suddenly their is a post about it, then the next thing you know, the site is flooded with sheep following the flock with thread after thread on variations of the same annoying questions and comments. They seem to be in competition to out-troll one another.
And of course, WE all are not helping the situation even giving them the satisfaction by posting in these threads. This is my last one here...make it yours as well and it should die down....we can only hope.
[1] That just makes you a hypocrite and most likely you are the cause of your problems with the community. It is funny how many millions of people get along playing wow just fine, but on this site people act like you get assaulted the second you log in by foul mouthed harrassing griefers with nothing better to do that ruin your experience. Almost without fail the people who make those complaints display the exact same manners they complain about. I'm sorry that your rants are not strong enough to be convincing, because you sure look to be a perfect example of the people you complain about. It's always someone elses fault though right? Never you.
[2] I've played plenty of beta tests, but I'm not so blind with rage at the mere mention of wow that I have tunnel vision. Plenty of people post many ideas from many games. Looking at how many failures have hit the market the last five years, perhaps that advice players were giving was rather good.
[3] You are right, I overstated the amount of blame you put on wow players for other games. You NEVER blame wow players for ruining beta forums. You NEVER blame wow players for infesting other mmos. You NEVER blame wow players for ruining game forums everywhere since wows release. You have NEVER said wow players are NEVER rational. Sarcasm aside, you do blame a heafty amount of problem in the industry on wow players.
Despite your jaded opinion of anyone that plays wow, I do understand games can be successful if they are a) different than wow and b) have less subs. You just can't see that, because you are closed minded on anything dealing with wow.
[4] wow players have games that play so similar to wow that they are wow skins with Star wars, warhammer, lord of the rings, etc. All of those IPs offer gameplay similar to wow, yet they do not get the masses you seem to think want that type of game. Most of those games have suffered horribly despite your claims that is what wow players want.
There are plenty of "wow clones" on the market right now, so if you were right, masses of people would be playing them. Care to give an excuse as to why they are not?
In the end I think you are so misguided, because you (as many others here) seem to think there is some sort of genetic difference in players between mmos. There isn't. Players are the same no matter where you go and only react to the situations they are put in. Crowded games let people hide among the masses, while low population games develop the hive mentality and drive off anyone who doesn't conform. Certain mechanics will bring out different behaviors in players, like pvp with full loot.
lol...this forum is better than any drama or indian movie.
/eating popcorn
I hate papa WoW because it made sweet love to the MMO genre and spawned all these little emo trollkins you see running around these days hatin on their daddy!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
There's just no way for one side to "win" the argument. The hater side hate WoW for legitimate and non legitimate reasons. They compare it to Walmart, MacDonalds, and Britney Spears and seem to think they have made some kind of point. It's pathetic really. It just means they hate it for being successful or <shudders> mainstream. So basically they have to wait to see what society's reaction to something is before they can tell you how they feel. The emo sheep mentality at work. They usually attack not the game, but the people who play it. Then there are the ones that hate WoW because they simply hate the graphics, themepark style, etc. Those are people that I can understand. They are people that can have a reasonable conversation about mmorpgs.
Then there are the fanbois that defend the game no matter how boring or repetitive the gameplay has gotten for them. They can not be reasoned with either. They will attack you no matter what valid point you make and call you a troll. There are gamers that play WoW simply because its the most popular mmorpg out there. If that's their sole reason for playing, then they are also a victim of the sheep mentality. Of course, there are people that play WoW because they enjoy the game and are completely oblivious to the hateful discussions we have about them.
Most of these threads are hijacked or started by trolls and fanbois alike. Any meaningful discussion is impossible at that point.
I am adding the to the same dish on the table. Why do I hate wow?
- Piss poor immature community
- Combat is too linear and is in need of certain stats.
- Class design is horribly designed
- Bottleneck styles of play
- Graphics
- Lack of depth in all area's of the game
- No disguise of grind
- Too much leet speak
- Dumb down the mmorpg genre ( In which accelerated many games to become wow clones, not eq clones )
- Piss poor immature community.. oh wait.. I said that already.
Edit: I don't hate the game because it's the top. I actually would like it to stay at the top. However, some companies who have a 100k sub base feel as if that is a failure to wow. Imo, that is a success. There won't be a wow killer, wow will only kill it's self from internal bleeding. There needs to be another game with a decent sub base which imo is 250k-500k of a certain niche of gamers. I wish this mmo' genre would go back to the roots and appeal their mmo to different niches so there would be peace.
Not to rain on you parade or anything but the most sold PC game ever is the Sims. It have sold a lot more boxes than Wow. If you count the revenue of the Sims IP and the Warcraft IP Sims will win. And if more players play a game like Guitarr hero for one wouldn't it still be better even if it is cheaper by your logic?
And the argument that the better something sells makes it better than something that sells less just isn't a valid one. Wow is surely better than the Sims in many way if you want one example that you probably agree on.
The fact that Brittney doesn't outsells her rivals with that much isn't working either since Beyonce and the rest on the toplist sounds about the same anyways, at least to me. They all sell better than Mozart and anyone saying that Beyonce is better than Mozart should really see some nice guys in white coats...
No, Wow wouldn't have been as big as it was if it was complete trash. But that really doesn't mean that it is better or worse than the other games, popularity and quality is not the same thing.
I decide which way that is the best way to use my $15 a month, not you. Wow is the best way for you to use your money, and that isn't a problem for me. But as a fanboi you are as blind as the haters. It is just a friggin' game and like all other games it have it's good and bad things.
Also is the time moving and what was the best way of spending your money 5 or 3 years ago might not be the best way of spending them now.
My final statement is that the richer a person is doesn't mean them better than someone with less money, Hitler had more cash then Ghandi if you want an example of that. The same thing goes for games and particularly gaming companies (I am looking at you, EA).
I think community has a lot to do with a game, if the community is real bad, it might discourage me from playing. Not having anything to do with game mechanics, that's a given. But the question was "Why do you Hate WoW". So I'd say that reason is pretty valid.
Hmm, hating Wow and not thinking it is the best game ever is the same thing???
I never said my opinions were better than anyone else (except in the Mozart Vs Beyonce possibly). The one that keep on saying that is you.
I want some proof of those numbers, give us an independent page that say that Wow earned more than any other game. Wii sports have sold 50 million numbers for one.
I don't hate Wow and never hated it. I don't play it either because I don't think it is that good. But that has nothing with this, you say that the more something sells the better it is and that argument is lost as soon as you wrote it.
I think community has a lot to do with a game, if the community is real bad, it might discourage me from playing. Not having anything to do with game mechanics, that's a given. But the question was "Why do you Hate WoW". So I'd say that reason is pretty valid.
Faulting WoW for it's community has got to be THE weakest excuse I have ever heard for this game. That's like saying Chicago or New York City suck because all the people there are crazed lunatics........oh yeah like you can vouch for the ENTIRE community....way to go.
Come on guys at least try to look like you have blood flowing to that frontal lobe.......
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I think community has a lot to do with a game, if the community is real bad, it might discourage me from playing. Not having anything to do with game mechanics, that's a given. But the question was "Why do you Hate WoW". So I'd say that reason is pretty valid.
The community in WOW = society in real life.
If ANY MMO has this, it is WOW because simply it has the MOST western players by far.
http://www.wow.com/2009/04/09/nielsen-wow-is-most-played-core-game-by-25-54-females/
And like I said....
You can't argue against the fact WOW was the single biggest most succesful game in the complete video gaming industry.
The equivalent of 30 to 40 million copies sold in our western society (through its 15 dollars subs system).
That simply means people PAY for this "community". They are part of it.
Not some FREE to play thing either.
Zorn, you're seriously off topic and are closing in on basically trolling.
I'm not trying to argue if it is "Most Successful" and really I don't care to. I see that border on opinion, companies can brag about making money, but It will be my judgment if "I" find it successful. Are you getting where I'm going with this?
This thread is full of opinions. If they found the community bad, there is not much you can actually say about it. However if they said it was the "Buggiest" MMO on the market (that's an example, don't overload on me), then rush to the defense, because that would be something false, something you could debunk. Nobody is saying WoW is not successful financially, they find it to be unsuccessful personally.
Think Zorn, you're better then this.
I think community has a lot to do with a game, if the community is real bad, it might discourage me from playing. Not having anything to do with game mechanics, that's a given. But the question was "Why do you Hate WoW". So I'd say that reason is pretty valid.
Faulting WoW for it's community has got to be THE weakest excuse
I'm not saying I agree with him, however his point is still valid. By the way, I've had better experience with community in a few other games. Let's say I was just lucky then.