Right, so what your saying is that a game with 25,000 active players per month, can be better than something which has 13 million active players per month? There is no logic in that. If the 25,000 active players per month MMORPG was better, than surely it would be the other way around? And seeing as it isn't, it is safe to assume that World of Warcraft is the most dominant/best game the MMORPG genre has witnessed, and unless someone is prepared to spend many a million, it is likely to be the best game within the MMORPG genre for the distant future beyond with what we can comprehend wih, even if it's reign has ended. Thanks!
Tokio Hotel and Justin Bieber have more fans than any other Bands fans put together... does it mean TH and Bieber are the best group and singer in the world?
Well, for me....there is one GLARING difference here. I have no fookin' idea who Tokio Hotel and Justin Bleber ARE. I think most of the modern world knows who/what WoW is......
Even my parents, who are NOT gamers and in their 60s, know what WoW is. So on being recognized by name....WoW def has the edge there.
It is not that WOW is a "bad" game it is just not a game for the casual player. I think there are more casual players then hardcore in the world of gaming. WOW shoudl cater to us as well. I only play WOW until i cap then there is nothing for me. Is that success? I don't think so. They could implement a lot of things that would keep players like us playing. Example: Instances: when I go to an instance that requires a team or raid but there is no one available to do it because it is old skool then what do I do? I have to pass it up and miss the quests. Simply make an option to one man it. At least I can finish my quests and have a little fun in a zone that before I would have missed. Casual players are important. Why keep the old zones if they are worthless? I am about to end my WOW account once again because repetition does not appeal to me and I am rather pissed off that I miss out on some instances that people just do not care about anymore. Happy Holidays. Peace.
You must not actually be playing WoW any more. Because you can have an INSTANT group to ANY instance you want now. Okay, you MIGHT have a 10 minute wait, max. So your "reasons" for not playing, while they may be valid in your head....are no longer valid in game.
If any game in the WORLD has catered to the casual players....WoW is IT. So if you don't find it caters to your "casual nature," you'd best drop out of playing MMOs for a good long while.
Meh, not everyone hates WoW and not everyone loves WoW. This is news? As is usual the people that are most vocal against something are the ones that used to love it the most. If people haven't played WoW then they seldom have strong negative feelings about it but for the minority that loved the game and then found that changes to it took away what they loved they tend to be very vocal and negative about the game and its changes. This is all perfectly normal.
The real problem comes from people with a different view of the game or the product. It is bit like men and cars. Buying a car is also a statement for some men of who they are and what they are in the world. So, if you criticize their choice of car you are in effect criticizing them and this is the same with WoW or any other game you care to mention. This isn't helped by the fact that some people do attack other people for their choices. WoW sucks, you play WoW so you suck too. And, of course this is patently untrue for both the game and the player. If you enjoy it then it is a good game and that is really all that matters.
Originally posted by grandpagamer Just quoting what you said. You just dont get it do you? Not everyone thinks that WOW is as wonderful as you do. Get over it, and yourself, for you are just another rabid fan of something that not everyone is going to love. As for EQ2 I like the game and feel it is superior to WOW. But do I feel the need to convince you and everyone else of such like you seem to feel the need to convert the gaming world to WOW? Your hatred for everything SOE is as pathetic as you love for something as trivial as a video game. Vanguard is dead,, go back to the Vanguard threads and celebrate with the rest of those that know so much better than SOE how to run a company and when you tire of that go sit on a mailboxy in IF with you buds and talk in trade chat about how big your sword is.
Listen Grandapa, I am completely fine with people not liking wow. In many cases I totally agree with the reasons given. Wow is not for everyone and it has flaws and has changed course on some people. There are very legitimate complaints. Just because I don't agree with YOU doesn't mean I don't agree with ANYONE.
On the other hand you are doing exactly what you criticize me of. You do nothing but run around this forum trying to tell everyone how bad wow is in some effort to get people to hate wow. You really should stop criticizing other people for things that you are a frequent offender of. Projecting your flaws on others doesn't make your actions justifiable.
For the record, I am not trying to make anyone like wow, especially you. Trust me on that. However I have no problem discussing inaccuracies, stupid analogies and trolling when I see it.
P.S. There is nothing that would make me happier than to play a fully fleshed out, fully supported, fully functional vanguard. That game SHOULD be kicking major ass in the market place right now, but it isn't. That is not something I am going to cheer about, because it hurts us all by making potential game makers look at the abysmal failure that it is. Never have I claimed to know how to run a business better than someone else, but anyone that is the least bit objective can see that soe is not doing a good job running mmos. I don't expect you to understand that, because you can not seem to get past the person posting the opinion and see the merits of the opinion itself.
Originally posted by Toquio3 The games' evolution doesnt care if a game is good or bad, only if a game works. And, oh boy, does WoW work...
QFT. That's what I've been trying to say as well.
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
The games' evolution doesnt care if a game is good or bad, only if a game works. And, oh boy, does WoW work...
QFT. That's what I've been trying to say as well.
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
Its the biggest MMORPG ever made Game world wise it is not, most popular Not really there are many non - western games with more players, highest earning, and by far the most dominant In the west it is the most dominant. It'll be a long time before an MMORPG overpowers WoW, and with the new graphical update with Cataclysm Was not much of a graphical update really, add a few more years onto that. The Lore of WoW also makes the limit of expansions quite high indeed Well of course thats why you have lore. Why would Blizzard stop making a game that makes them billions? Only when WoW becomes very unpopular will that "crime" be dealt. So basically, I'm wondering why that with everyone thread posted, someone comes along and insults WoW. With 13 million active members, all paying £10 per month, it can't be that bad a game, can it? So why dis it as frequent as people do? Read below. Thanks!
WoW is a game that is designed to cater to the masses i.e. the teens who want it now. This game gives it to them by providing a very linear progression towards Endgame content such as raiding. What non wow fanboys see is a game that encourages developers to ignore innovative ideas that could evolve the MMO in favour for a mass market game that could make them lots more cash than an untested idea or concept.
Now while this is something that makes buisness sence its not something that brings around much in the way of new fresh games with a different way of doing things.
This is off topic, but how can you (jph12, that is) say that Cataclysm "wasn't" much of an update really? Are you living in an alternate world where that expansion already is released, or something?
The games' evolution doesnt care if a game is good or bad, only if a game works. And, oh boy, does WoW work...
QFT. That's what I've been trying to say as well.
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
But success still does not mean quality.
Lets stop with these half finished sentences that completely ignore the facts of the situation.
Wow has received critical acclaim from every corner of the gaming industry for its quality. Wow ushered in the term "polished" in regards to a well refined gameplay experience.
The lack of quality in most other games is exactly the reason why there is no real serious competition for world of warcraft right now.
Perhaps you might have a great point if we were talking about hypothetical situations in a classroom, but that is not the case here and it is just silly to make comments like this.
There are some enormous problems with saying "this game" or "that game" is the "BEST" MMORPG out there.
There are certain things that can be actually measured in determining "best" as far as in technical quality:
1) customer service
2) updates and polish (continual involvement and concern for the game by the developers)
3) server stability and soundness
4) SMOOTHNESS of gameplay (gameplay itSELF, however, is subjective as to what is "best")
5) sound and graphic QUALITY (not style...."best" style is entirely subjective)
In all of these areas, where there is really no subjectivity, WoW shines.
However, there are many, many taste preferences and even financial capabilities of potential customers, that are also figured in to determine what is the BEST game for any individual player. And THOSE are the things that always cause this question, in regards to WoW being the "best," to always end up in an argument.
Apparently, at least 11 million people think that either WoW is the best game FOR THEM....OR....they are simply playing it for lack of better options from which to choose. Either way, it's definitely the dominant game in the genre's Western MARKET at this time.
The question "Is WoW the BEST game" will never be answered. It CANNOT be answered with any sort of "scientific" certainty, because there are too many things that go into WHY something is hugely popular, that cannot be technically MEASURED.
Who is the best artist....Renoir or Monet...or Cezanne or Picasso, for that matter? Who is the best band of the late 70s and early 80s, Fleetwood Mac or Heart? What is the best sport, golf or soccer? These are all questions that have measurable quantities, and SOME quantifying factors that CANNOT BE MEASURED. So the question, in ANY of those cases, just as with games, cannot be answered.
Answering with what is the most POPULAR, simply gets the result of what/who is the most successful at SALES, very very often. Advertising ALSO plays a huge huge part in popularity, as does the "trends" factor.
The word "best" is just a very subjective word, when there are denominators that do indeed affect perspectives, yet are not measurable.
Lets stop with these half finished sentences that completely ignore the facts of the situation. Wow has received critical acclaim from every corner of the gaming industry for its quality. Wow ushered in the term "polished" in regards to a well refined gameplay experience. The lack of quality in most other games is exactly the reason why there is no real serious competition for world of warcraft right now. Perhaps you might have a great point if we were talking about hypothetical situations in a classroom, but that is not the case here and it is just silly to make comments like this.
From my point of view, I have nothing really bad to say about WoW. It's simply not my cup of tea is all.
As far as what has happened to the market as a result is something that could in no way be forecast by anyone. However, it is the response to WoW that can be correctly criticized, in my opinion. The blame does not lie with Blizzard, WoW, or the people who play it.
If you compare this industry to other entertainment industies, it would be almost like imagining a huge sci-fi novel coming out and selling like nothing before it. And then to have that industry respond with nothing but sci-fi imitators for years to come. All other sections of your average bookstore would have nothing in them but sci-fi clones... no other genre of books.
Ridiculous? Sure.
So, why isn't it ridiculous when we point out that is exactly what has happened to the mmo industry?
Again, the fault lies not with WoW, but the inept fools who responded with nothing but clones.
I don't think many people hate WoW as such, but I do think that those who dislike it for whatever reason resent the fact that the games they do like are being constantly turned into something they don't like because developers are keen to emulate the success of WoW and think that they can do so by imitating it. What they should be doing is accepting that Blizzard have dominated one section of the market and aimed their games at a different section where they'll have a better chance of cornering the market. All we see, however, is our favourite games being dumbed down to appeal to the younger 'instant gratification' crowd that is the cornerstone of WoW's success, and that grates.
Originally posted by girlgeek This is off topic, but how can you (jph12, that is) say that Cataclysm "wasn't" much of an update really? Are you living in an alternate world where that expansion already is released, or something?
He'd say exactly the same thing even if Cataclysm featured Cry Engine 3 as its graphics engine. There's no logic behind haters and their trolling.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I don't hate WoW. I am sick of WoW and how it has turned the MMO world into a cookie cutter void. I tried Runes of Magic, and it lasted no longer than 30 minutes because I was suffering a horrendous case of Deja-Vu. I'd like to see some depth in player housing/rewards and maybe a new combat system. WoW is just a re-hash of the original EQ, and they did a great job. It's almost 2010 it's time to move on.
Lets stop with these half finished sentences that completely ignore the facts of the situation. Wow has received critical acclaim from every corner of the gaming industry for its quality. Wow ushered in the term "polished" in regards to a well refined gameplay experience. The lack of quality in most other games is exactly the reason why there is no real serious competition for world of warcraft right now. Perhaps you might have a great point if we were talking about hypothetical situations in a classroom, but that is not the case here and it is just silly to make comments like this.
From my point of view, I have nothing really bad to say about WoW. It's simply not my cup of tea is all.
As far as what has happened to the market as a result is something that could in no way be forecast by anyone. However, it is the response to WoW that can be correctly criticized, in my opinion. The blame does not lie with Blizzard, WoW, or the people who play it.
If you compare this industry to other entertainment industies, it would be almost like imagining a huge sci-fi novel coming out and selling like nothing before it. And then to have that industry respond with nothing but sci-fi imitators for years to come. All other sections of your average bookstore would have nothing in them but sci-fi clones... no other genre of books.
Ridiculous? Sure.
So, why isn't it ridiculous when we point out that is exactly what has happened to the mmo industry?
Again, the fault lies not with WoW, but the inept fools who responded with nothing but clones.
I agree with you, but I don't think that is the case. To some degree yes, but the over inflation of the "wow clone" taken on a meaning that is misleading.
To start with, wow is just an Everquest clone. It was cast in the same mold as most other games were prior to its release and is not the reason for so many other games following in the same framework as everquest. Everqeust emulation has been going on for 10 years now and makes up the majority of the mmo market.
There are also plenty of other games that release which try to do something different, but none have really been successful so they are mostly overlooked in the industry. Many have failed, some did not make it to release, most bombed, but they do exist and some developers are trying to break from the norm. The lack of success doesn't mean they do not exist though as your analogy suggests.
I understand why there is the generally accepted wow clone mentality around the genre. Almost every major release has been more of the same eq style game. It really does get old very fast.
Until game developers figure out that the next success isn't going to be another 12 million player game, but rather a strong "niche" market of 1-2 million with a game that is different, we can expect more games based on the diku mud/eq model.
The question "Is WoW the BEST game" will never be answered. It CANNOT be answered with any sort of "scientific" certainty, because there are too many things that go into WHY something is hugely popular, that cannot be technically MEASURED. ... The word "best" is just a very subjective word, when there are denominators that do indeed affect perspectives, yet are not measurable.
Very nice post! I'd hope that more of the general MMO community adopts this view point.
The question "Is WoW the BEST game" will never be answered. It CANNOT be answered with any sort of "scientific" certainty, because there are too many things that go into WHY something is hugely popular, that cannot be technically MEASURED.
...
The word "best" is just a very subjective word, when there are denominators that do indeed affect perspectives, yet are not measurable.
Very nice post! I'd hope that more of the general MMO community adopts this view point.
Most of them do not understand such concepts.
To add, the posts points, can also be applied to Turbines games.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by Daffid011 To start with, wow is just an Everquest clone.
To start with, this is a blatant lie, just another Internet myth that is repeated without any proof.
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
To start with, this is a blatant lie, just another Internet myth that is repeated without any proof.
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
Ok, perhaps I could have stated that better as the word clone leaves a lot up to the reader, but I don't see how you can read that as the warcraft universe was copied from everquest. The warcraft universe predates everquest by many years and I have never heard anyone make the claim that you think I am saying.
Anyhow, please let me rephrase my statement.
World of Warcraft was build upon the same mmo mechanics as everquest and borrows heavily from that games design. It is a spiritual clone of the everquest GAMEPLAY* model.
Does that clear it up for you?
*This does not include lore, history or the actual game world.
To start with, this is a blatant lie, just another Internet myth that is repeated without any proof.
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
Great post! How very true, SOE makes crap. I like to blast back if WoW is Mc you are the crappy little food place shut down for health code violations! Britney Spears you are the little deaf kid trying to sing, etc etc. just insult their stupid game back and expect them to start cussing, because the little babies like to dish out inssults but can't hack their stupid game being justifiably insulted for its utter lack of success (because it sucks).
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
Only in the eyes of haters who just have to be sore losers on top of being losers anyway.
How am I a sore loser if I feel that the games I'm playing are actually better? I honestly have actually PLAYED WoW. My opinion isn't based on being a hater. I WANTED to like it and found it to actually be a quite unenjoyable grindfest and found the other players to be tremendous assholes. Has any consideration actually been given to the fact that I maybe WASN'T just bitching about a game I never even tried?
Originally posted by xtoturnwithi How am I a sore loser if I feel that the games I'm playing are actually better? I honestly have actually PLAYED WoW. My opinion isn't based on being a hater. I WANTED to like it and found it to actually be a quite unenjoyable grindfest and found the other players to be tremendous assholes. Has any consideration actually been given to the fact that I maybe WASN'T just bitching about a game I never even tried?
Let me translate your message into a human language: you tried, you failed. Now you come here with your whining and your excuses.
How do we call such a person? To me, the answer is clear.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
First off, there are some great points made from both sides and I'm impressed by the arguments WoW support side (which generally tend to be more childish) has to offer, awesome!!!
My do hate WoW because it stands as of now more as a money machine than anything else.
Let's establish some common language / points so we can actually have an intellectual discussion ok?
1) Games are suppose to be fun, whether you like to socialize with other people, you like to hear the stories, you like to feel accomplished, you like quick reactionary battles, etc. the game should be fun for you.
2) A game should implement challenging mechanisms to in order to "stream line" the fun, i.e. you like stories, you need to beat this boss or explore this dangerous area to hear the next part of the story; if you like battles, obviously battles should get tougher. The exception here would be socialization, but obviously if that is your MAIN concern, you'd be on the SIMs or something similar. If all you have to do is press a button to get all the story lines, kill all the mobs in single hit, accomplish all titles by walking two feet to the right of you, then I don't think the game would be fun.
3) Challenges should require some set of skills to over-come. As I mentioned before, everyone can hit a button (hitting it multiple times even), and if performing the action of button-mashing get you from level 1 to level 80 in let's say 30 seconds, killing everything in one hit, the game would not be fun. BUT, the game will be boring NOT because it only takes 30 seconds to accomplish that task, I think the game is boring because pressing buttons doesn't require any special skill set. Pressing buttons does not distinguish you from anyone else in this world who has the ability to physically push down on a button.
These are the basic concepts I think a game should implement. I also think that WoW CAN have a lot more potential then what has been implemented. Team work for example in WoW is very poor; it is true that you get synergy from grouping with other players in forms of higher percentage of loots, less down-time, can take on higher level dungeons, etc. but the battle in a team-work setting is not different than single player battle for each of the players. Not much communications are required, or knowledge of what your teammate is doing or is about to do is needed for your group to survive fairly well in WoW. If you do not need to know what your teammates are doing, or what they are going to do (that might be stupid enough to wipe the party), then there is no real team work involved. Keep in mind I am saying there is no need, but if you do have comm between players for a more optimal battle, I'm not denying that.
In my opinion, I think WoW is putting a stopper to the MMO development / evolution at the industry level. Problem is that this game is so profitable, blizzard will not move on until they are replaced with a better game. As an industry as a whole, many games tried "new" features but failed so now the only COMMERCIALLY successful games are more or less the same. This becomes a big problem because players tend to play one game until better games come out. So there is a good chance players will stick with WoW, so WoW will not be replaced with WoW2 until the market can change in a different direction. Market as a whole wants to make money, so they will copy WoW, so new games with drastic changes in features and combat systems will be impossible to find. All games will try out SOMETHING new, but just to ensure a return on investment to recover their money, they'll have to make most of the game familiar enough so users will easily adopt to this new game. Obviously throwing away your level 80 char in WoW to start over in what seems to be a clone is not worth investing your time in, so you'd stay in WoW until something really good comes along. This will encourage more games to stop trying out new features and just copy WoW.
I hate WoW because of this vicious cycle that it created and the fact that it is blizzard's same type of motivation to play since Diablo. Random chances to drop high level loots - this is why MOST people are playing. If you want to say this game is fun, you'd have very little argument on why it would be fun (after so many years, for a while, WoW is definitely fun). Whether it is raid, battle grounds, pvp, crafting, etc. Most of the time spent is to obtain better gears. So let's push this idea to the limit, let's say everyone obtained the best of the gears, then what would the raiders do? What would be the point of battle ground and PvP? Ratings become meaningless because all games since beginning of time have one thing in common, you get stronger but also fight stronger mobs to get to the end.
Then comes MMOs, where the game technically doesn't end. To increase profits, they will ride on players greed/competitiveness (for lack of better words); the game is designed to have you chase after something you sought after but the rate at which blizzard can create these items, is faster than you can obtain those items. So you will be permanently grinding for better items, higher ratings (to get better items). Blizzard, instead of being the leader in the game industry as they have always been, are now just settling for an average game that should have retired. Players haven't realized games are taking a turn in directions, there are now less evolution in games but more extension of contents, and more mechanisms to keep players addicted to games than trying to find create games that are fun.
It's 2 am so I apologize for the incoherent paragraphs I just threw together. My points will take a 10 page paper to cover, so when I shorted everything, it doesn't sound as well thought out.
Anyways, FFXVI seems like a power house developed by an industry leading company (I consider the FF series always on the cutting edge of console RPGs) that can potentially topple WoW. Looking forward to that. I just hope players can look beyond the graphics, sounds and other superficial stuff because they don't contribute to the fun of the game.
Comments
Tokio Hotel and Justin Bieber have more fans than any other Bands fans put together... does it mean TH and Bieber are the best group and singer in the world?
Well, for me....there is one GLARING difference here. I have no fookin' idea who Tokio Hotel and Justin Bleber ARE. I think most of the modern world knows who/what WoW is......
Even my parents, who are NOT gamers and in their 60s, know what WoW is. So on being recognized by name....WoW def has the edge there.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The games' evolution doesnt care if a game is good or bad, only if a game works. And, oh boy, does WoW work...
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
You must not actually be playing WoW any more. Because you can have an INSTANT group to ANY instance you want now. Okay, you MIGHT have a 10 minute wait, max. So your "reasons" for not playing, while they may be valid in your head....are no longer valid in game.
If any game in the WORLD has catered to the casual players....WoW is IT. So if you don't find it caters to your "casual nature," you'd best drop out of playing MMOs for a good long while.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Meh, not everyone hates WoW and not everyone loves WoW. This is news? As is usual the people that are most vocal against something are the ones that used to love it the most. If people haven't played WoW then they seldom have strong negative feelings about it but for the minority that loved the game and then found that changes to it took away what they loved they tend to be very vocal and negative about the game and its changes. This is all perfectly normal.
The real problem comes from people with a different view of the game or the product. It is bit like men and cars. Buying a car is also a statement for some men of who they are and what they are in the world. So, if you criticize their choice of car you are in effect criticizing them and this is the same with WoW or any other game you care to mention. This isn't helped by the fact that some people do attack other people for their choices. WoW sucks, you play WoW so you suck too. And, of course this is patently untrue for both the game and the player. If you enjoy it then it is a good game and that is really all that matters.
Listen Grandapa, I am completely fine with people not liking wow. In many cases I totally agree with the reasons given. Wow is not for everyone and it has flaws and has changed course on some people. There are very legitimate complaints. Just because I don't agree with YOU doesn't mean I don't agree with ANYONE.
On the other hand you are doing exactly what you criticize me of. You do nothing but run around this forum trying to tell everyone how bad wow is in some effort to get people to hate wow. You really should stop criticizing other people for things that you are a frequent offender of. Projecting your flaws on others doesn't make your actions justifiable.
For the record, I am not trying to make anyone like wow, especially you. Trust me on that. However I have no problem discussing inaccuracies, stupid analogies and trolling when I see it.
P.S. There is nothing that would make me happier than to play a fully fleshed out, fully supported, fully functional vanguard. That game SHOULD be kicking major ass in the market place right now, but it isn't. That is not something I am going to cheer about, because it hurts us all by making potential game makers look at the abysmal failure that it is. Never have I claimed to know how to run a business better than someone else, but anyone that is the least bit objective can see that soe is not doing a good job running mmos. I don't expect you to understand that, because you can not seem to get past the person posting the opinion and see the merits of the opinion itself.
Have fun with your crusade though.
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Where does that leave you ?: nowhere.
Happily playing EVE, thank you. Enjoying my game quite nicely, same as you, but without all the senseless cheerleading.
That is UNTIL someone makes a thread that doesn't LIKE EVE. EVE players are JUST as capable of senseless cheerleading.
Anyone that has a "favorite" game, is likely to become a "senseless cheerleader," if prodded by the right comment or criticism.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
But success still does not mean quality.
WoW is a game that is designed to cater to the masses i.e. the teens who want it now. This game gives it to them by providing a very linear progression towards Endgame content such as raiding. What non wow fanboys see is a game that encourages developers to ignore innovative ideas that could evolve the MMO in favour for a mass market game that could make them lots more cash than an untested idea or concept.
Now while this is something that makes buisness sence its not something that brings around much in the way of new fresh games with a different way of doing things.
This is off topic, but how can you (jph12, that is) say that Cataclysm "wasn't" much of an update really? Are you living in an alternate world where that expansion already is released, or something?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Haters may envy the success of WoW as much as they like. But they and their troll posts and their failed-but-oh-so-great MMOs will be forgotten. And WoW is a living history already. That's the difference.
But success still does not mean quality.
Lets stop with these half finished sentences that completely ignore the facts of the situation.
Wow has received critical acclaim from every corner of the gaming industry for its quality. Wow ushered in the term "polished" in regards to a well refined gameplay experience.
The lack of quality in most other games is exactly the reason why there is no real serious competition for world of warcraft right now.
Perhaps you might have a great point if we were talking about hypothetical situations in a classroom, but that is not the case here and it is just silly to make comments like this.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
There are some enormous problems with saying "this game" or "that game" is the "BEST" MMORPG out there.
There are certain things that can be actually measured in determining "best" as far as in technical quality:
1) customer service
2) updates and polish (continual involvement and concern for the game by the developers)
3) server stability and soundness
4) SMOOTHNESS of gameplay (gameplay itSELF, however, is subjective as to what is "best")
5) sound and graphic QUALITY (not style...."best" style is entirely subjective)
In all of these areas, where there is really no subjectivity, WoW shines.
However, there are many, many taste preferences and even financial capabilities of potential customers, that are also figured in to determine what is the BEST game for any individual player. And THOSE are the things that always cause this question, in regards to WoW being the "best," to always end up in an argument.
Apparently, at least 11 million people think that either WoW is the best game FOR THEM....OR....they are simply playing it for lack of better options from which to choose. Either way, it's definitely the dominant game in the genre's Western MARKET at this time.
The question "Is WoW the BEST game" will never be answered. It CANNOT be answered with any sort of "scientific" certainty, because there are too many things that go into WHY something is hugely popular, that cannot be technically MEASURED.
Who is the best artist....Renoir or Monet...or Cezanne or Picasso, for that matter? Who is the best band of the late 70s and early 80s, Fleetwood Mac or Heart? What is the best sport, golf or soccer? These are all questions that have measurable quantities, and SOME quantifying factors that CANNOT BE MEASURED. So the question, in ANY of those cases, just as with games, cannot be answered.
Answering with what is the most POPULAR, simply gets the result of what/who is the most successful at SALES, very very often. Advertising ALSO plays a huge huge part in popularity, as does the "trends" factor.
The word "best" is just a very subjective word, when there are denominators that do indeed affect perspectives, yet are not measurable.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
From my point of view, I have nothing really bad to say about WoW. It's simply not my cup of tea is all.
As far as what has happened to the market as a result is something that could in no way be forecast by anyone. However, it is the response to WoW that can be correctly criticized, in my opinion. The blame does not lie with Blizzard, WoW, or the people who play it.
If you compare this industry to other entertainment industies, it would be almost like imagining a huge sci-fi novel coming out and selling like nothing before it. And then to have that industry respond with nothing but sci-fi imitators for years to come. All other sections of your average bookstore would have nothing in them but sci-fi clones... no other genre of books.
Ridiculous? Sure.
So, why isn't it ridiculous when we point out that is exactly what has happened to the mmo industry?
Again, the fault lies not with WoW, but the inept fools who responded with nothing but clones.
I don't think many people hate WoW as such, but I do think that those who dislike it for whatever reason resent the fact that the games they do like are being constantly turned into something they don't like because developers are keen to emulate the success of WoW and think that they can do so by imitating it. What they should be doing is accepting that Blizzard have dominated one section of the market and aimed their games at a different section where they'll have a better chance of cornering the market. All we see, however, is our favourite games being dumbed down to appeal to the younger 'instant gratification' crowd that is the cornerstone of WoW's success, and that grates.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I don't hate WoW. I am sick of WoW and how it has turned the MMO world into a cookie cutter void. I tried Runes of Magic, and it lasted no longer than 30 minutes because I was suffering a horrendous case of Deja-Vu. I'd like to see some depth in player housing/rewards and maybe a new combat system. WoW is just a re-hash of the original EQ, and they did a great job. It's almost 2010 it's time to move on.
From my point of view, I have nothing really bad to say about WoW. It's simply not my cup of tea is all.
As far as what has happened to the market as a result is something that could in no way be forecast by anyone. However, it is the response to WoW that can be correctly criticized, in my opinion. The blame does not lie with Blizzard, WoW, or the people who play it.
If you compare this industry to other entertainment industies, it would be almost like imagining a huge sci-fi novel coming out and selling like nothing before it. And then to have that industry respond with nothing but sci-fi imitators for years to come. All other sections of your average bookstore would have nothing in them but sci-fi clones... no other genre of books.
Ridiculous? Sure.
So, why isn't it ridiculous when we point out that is exactly what has happened to the mmo industry?
Again, the fault lies not with WoW, but the inept fools who responded with nothing but clones.
I agree with you, but I don't think that is the case. To some degree yes, but the over inflation of the "wow clone" taken on a meaning that is misleading.
To start with, wow is just an Everquest clone. It was cast in the same mold as most other games were prior to its release and is not the reason for so many other games following in the same framework as everquest. Everqeust emulation has been going on for 10 years now and makes up the majority of the mmo market.
There are also plenty of other games that release which try to do something different, but none have really been successful so they are mostly overlooked in the industry. Many have failed, some did not make it to release, most bombed, but they do exist and some developers are trying to break from the norm. The lack of success doesn't mean they do not exist though as your analogy suggests.
I understand why there is the generally accepted wow clone mentality around the genre. Almost every major release has been more of the same eq style game. It really does get old very fast.
Until game developers figure out that the next success isn't going to be another 12 million player game, but rather a strong "niche" market of 1-2 million with a game that is different, we can expect more games based on the diku mud/eq model.
Very nice post! I'd hope that more of the general MMO community adopts this view point.
Most of them do not understand such concepts.
To add, the posts points, can also be applied to Turbines games.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
Ok, perhaps I could have stated that better as the word clone leaves a lot up to the reader, but I don't see how you can read that as the warcraft universe was copied from everquest. The warcraft universe predates everquest by many years and I have never heard anyone make the claim that you think I am saying.
Anyhow, please let me rephrase my statement.
World of Warcraft was build upon the same mmo mechanics as everquest and borrows heavily from that games design. It is a spiritual clone of the everquest GAMEPLAY* model.
Does that clear it up for you?
*This does not include lore, history or the actual game world.
WoW has its own lore, setting/history, graphics engine, art style, classes, mechanics. EQ/EQ2 were just a couple of crappy generic SOE games. (SOE has never made a good game anyway, so it's not really noteworthy either.)
Great post! How very true, SOE makes crap. I like to blast back if WoW is Mc you are the crappy little food place shut down for health code violations! Britney Spears you are the little deaf kid trying to sing, etc etc. just insult their stupid game back and expect them to start cussing, because the little babies like to dish out inssults but can't hack their stupid game being justifiably insulted for its utter lack of success (because it sucks).
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
How am I a sore loser if I feel that the games I'm playing are actually better? I honestly have actually PLAYED WoW. My opinion isn't based on being a hater. I WANTED to like it and found it to actually be a quite unenjoyable grindfest and found the other players to be tremendous assholes. Has any consideration actually been given to the fact that I maybe WASN'T just bitching about a game I never even tried?
How do we call such a person? To me, the answer is clear.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Hi, WoW hater here.
First off, there are some great points made from both sides and I'm impressed by the arguments WoW support side (which generally tend to be more childish) has to offer, awesome!!!
My do hate WoW because it stands as of now more as a money machine than anything else.
Let's establish some common language / points so we can actually have an intellectual discussion ok?
1) Games are suppose to be fun, whether you like to socialize with other people, you like to hear the stories, you like to feel accomplished, you like quick reactionary battles, etc. the game should be fun for you.
2) A game should implement challenging mechanisms to in order to "stream line" the fun, i.e. you like stories, you need to beat this boss or explore this dangerous area to hear the next part of the story; if you like battles, obviously battles should get tougher. The exception here would be socialization, but obviously if that is your MAIN concern, you'd be on the SIMs or something similar. If all you have to do is press a button to get all the story lines, kill all the mobs in single hit, accomplish all titles by walking two feet to the right of you, then I don't think the game would be fun.
3) Challenges should require some set of skills to over-come. As I mentioned before, everyone can hit a button (hitting it multiple times even), and if performing the action of button-mashing get you from level 1 to level 80 in let's say 30 seconds, killing everything in one hit, the game would not be fun. BUT, the game will be boring NOT because it only takes 30 seconds to accomplish that task, I think the game is boring because pressing buttons doesn't require any special skill set. Pressing buttons does not distinguish you from anyone else in this world who has the ability to physically push down on a button.
These are the basic concepts I think a game should implement. I also think that WoW CAN have a lot more potential then what has been implemented. Team work for example in WoW is very poor; it is true that you get synergy from grouping with other players in forms of higher percentage of loots, less down-time, can take on higher level dungeons, etc. but the battle in a team-work setting is not different than single player battle for each of the players. Not much communications are required, or knowledge of what your teammate is doing or is about to do is needed for your group to survive fairly well in WoW. If you do not need to know what your teammates are doing, or what they are going to do (that might be stupid enough to wipe the party), then there is no real team work involved. Keep in mind I am saying there is no need, but if you do have comm between players for a more optimal battle, I'm not denying that.
In my opinion, I think WoW is putting a stopper to the MMO development / evolution at the industry level. Problem is that this game is so profitable, blizzard will not move on until they are replaced with a better game. As an industry as a whole, many games tried "new" features but failed so now the only COMMERCIALLY successful games are more or less the same. This becomes a big problem because players tend to play one game until better games come out. So there is a good chance players will stick with WoW, so WoW will not be replaced with WoW2 until the market can change in a different direction. Market as a whole wants to make money, so they will copy WoW, so new games with drastic changes in features and combat systems will be impossible to find. All games will try out SOMETHING new, but just to ensure a return on investment to recover their money, they'll have to make most of the game familiar enough so users will easily adopt to this new game. Obviously throwing away your level 80 char in WoW to start over in what seems to be a clone is not worth investing your time in, so you'd stay in WoW until something really good comes along. This will encourage more games to stop trying out new features and just copy WoW.
I hate WoW because of this vicious cycle that it created and the fact that it is blizzard's same type of motivation to play since Diablo. Random chances to drop high level loots - this is why MOST people are playing. If you want to say this game is fun, you'd have very little argument on why it would be fun (after so many years, for a while, WoW is definitely fun). Whether it is raid, battle grounds, pvp, crafting, etc. Most of the time spent is to obtain better gears. So let's push this idea to the limit, let's say everyone obtained the best of the gears, then what would the raiders do? What would be the point of battle ground and PvP? Ratings become meaningless because all games since beginning of time have one thing in common, you get stronger but also fight stronger mobs to get to the end.
Then comes MMOs, where the game technically doesn't end. To increase profits, they will ride on players greed/competitiveness (for lack of better words); the game is designed to have you chase after something you sought after but the rate at which blizzard can create these items, is faster than you can obtain those items. So you will be permanently grinding for better items, higher ratings (to get better items). Blizzard, instead of being the leader in the game industry as they have always been, are now just settling for an average game that should have retired. Players haven't realized games are taking a turn in directions, there are now less evolution in games but more extension of contents, and more mechanisms to keep players addicted to games than trying to find create games that are fun.
It's 2 am so I apologize for the incoherent paragraphs I just threw together. My points will take a 10 page paper to cover, so when I shorted everything, it doesn't sound as well thought out.
Anyways, FFXVI seems like a power house developed by an industry leading company (I consider the FF series always on the cutting edge of console RPGs) that can potentially topple WoW. Looking forward to that. I just hope players can look beyond the graphics, sounds and other superficial stuff because they don't contribute to the fun of the game.