because its not cool to like things that are popular. funny thing is though, ask these guys what theyre playing if not wow. I mean, if ya know anything about MMO's you'll know theres not much else out there.. at all. Most of them fall very short of delivering anything wow has to offer. of course, you'll get a lot of responses about how wow's pvp is crap. or how its too simple and too easily accessible. How the graphics are cartoony. But just ask these folks "what are you playing then?". I bet you can shoot 10x the amount of holes in any other MMO theyre trying to compare to WoW.
I am one of thouse who say WoW is to easy, dont like the graphical style, etc. etc. etc., what MMO am I playing . . . well I dont have a main MMO atm sad fact is the genre has gotten a bit well no simple way to discribe it.
WoW is not the god send that the fan boys like to say and its not the heap of crap that the anti-wow gamers like to spout; having said that both have there points. The Fan boys say the game is great they usualy only refrence the number of subscriptions WoW has which isn't a strong point in my book as another poster mentioned McDonalds sales more hambergers than any one else but they are by no means the best, Wallmart sales more of well prity much every thing but again not the best shear numbers by no means == best. What I do think WoW did well was to produce an easy to use fun game somthing that had not been done in the MMO genre to that point some what like Dell is to PCs are they the best lol I wont even answer that one but it is easy you dont have to know the ins and outs of all the hardware and for thouse who want easy its the best option for the rest of us its a paper weight at best.
So what is the best MMO on the market at the moment, well thats no easy answer MMO is a big genre with many sub genre, i.e. Sandbox, high fantasy, casual, etc. as far as the best over all I think that still belongs to one of the clasics but is beyodn the focus of this topic.
As to the OP question why every one bashes on it, people always pash on the title they are tiered of and a lot fo people are tiered of WoW 90% or better of thouse gripign about it to include my self are former WoW players and we are simply done with it odds are you will be there some day as well, that or you will be the WoW zelot that 10 years later gripes about the current generation of MMOs and how they distroyed the genre.
Originally posted by grandpagamer So you too think Titanic is a better movie than Return of the King. Interesting.
Actually, in my opinion they're equally crappy. But let's pretend for a moment that I rate Titanic higher than RotK. How are going to prove me wrong?
You need to define criteria or it's going nowhere. (OK, it's going nowhere in any case, but we can at least try. ;-) If popular equals poor quality for you than what can you say about Louvre? You are aware that several millions of people visit it every year, I hope. Gotta be total junk, eh?
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Zorn? Which movie was the best, TItanic or Return of the King?
It is not a question of "best". It is a question which one was the most succesful in money making AND critical acclaim.
If you can't live with this simple FACT in our society..... You're ignorant.
So WOW isnt the best game even though it makes the most money. Finally you have come to it.
It is the most succesful game (in money making) AND has the BEST scores in critical acclaim for ANY mmorpg by far.
So it certainly meets these two criteria to succes and best MMORPG ever.
Again no.
It meets the criteria to be 'Most Successful' but in no way meets any criteria to be 'The Best'.
Successful is easily gauged and can be proven. To be the best would require personal preferences, which CANT be proven as fact at all.
Now is it the best selling MMO? Yes.
Is it the 'Best' MMO? No.
See where your argument fails yet? No matter how many Web Stats you throw around or Revenue reports you post, it all means squat when trying to prove that the game is the 'best' mmo. Because no matter how hard you try to prove that it is, you cant. No one can for that matter. Its all subjective.
If anything you are more deserving of this lifetime account than I am. Its good till 2030
Wrong: the critical acclaim of ALL the websites show a 92.4% average rating which is almost 10% better than those "other" rated MMORPG's.
Together with this critical acclaim average, it has - by far - the most revenu of ANY video game in 30 years history.
Ignoring this to prefer personal "IMO" is ... worthless for the general critical acclaim price of simply being ELECTED the best mmorpg ever by its monthly PAYING players AND reviewers.
You can always like another game more. But by our society standards: WOW WILL be considered the most succesful game EVER made... and so can considered to be the best by general consensus.
because people PAY (and vote) to play it.
Again you're wrong.
Just because its a 'critical success' still doesnt make it 'the best'.
Best Selling? Yes
Best MMO? Again no.
No matter how you try to make it sound like it is, it isnt. You cant say it is just because of general consensus either. Thats like saying because more people agree Lung Cancer kills more people per year than falling into a wood chipper means that Lung Cancer is the best way to die. Its has the big numbers, it makes a ton off treatments and has tons of articles on the web about it (with everyone agreeing that it kills more than a wood chipper). So by your estimations on stats and society standards it must be the best way to go.
Yeah... no thanks...
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
As bad as WoW is (in my opinion anyway) it's better than the vast majority of MMORPGs that have come out since its release. It used to be that I looked upon WoW as a poor attempt at an MMORPG but when I compare WoW as it was in November of 04 to any game launching today...the new games are the ones that seem like hollow shells of games.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Originally posted by fyerwall Thats like saying because more people agree Lung Cancer kills more people per year than falling into a wood chipper means that Lung Cancer is the best way to die.
You don't decide the way you die (unless you perform a suicide). The best way to die is to live forever. But immortality is a bit out of reach and unfortunately all other options are really inferior.
You can choose what games to play though. Do you feel the difference?
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Thats like saying because more people agree Lung Cancer kills more people per year than falling into a wood chipper means that Lung Cancer is the best way to die.
You don't decide the way you die (unless you perform a suicide). The best way to die is to live forever. But immortality is a bit out of reach and unfortunately all other options are really inferior.
You can choose what games to play though. Do you feel the difference?
Nice reach and deflection.
Analogy still fits the case at hand though, sorry
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This thread makes me sad. Really sad. Years ago Blizzard was considered hands down gold to every nerd, gamer, techy, whatever tag you wanted to put on yourself. Like, every product every gamer liked. Even WoW never got any flame for its first year....but then it got mainstream.....and people had to play it for 14 hours a day.....and people call it crap now. Jeeze. I remember the day Warcraft came out on disks, and blizzard never looked better. Diablo came along and people thought blizzard couldn't release crap. Starcraft came and entire colleges got new entertainment for years and countries developed new sports due to blizzard. But mainstream picks up on a Blizzard product and the gamers turn their back to Blizzard? Why? Because you grinded to many hours and to many days and want it to be fresh and exciting now that you've dumped over 500 hours into it? WoW isn't a bad game, its dated sure, but its not a bad game. People used mass amounts of addons and raged through its leveling content, I guess you are burnt out. I completely understand people that got caught up in the over expectations of raids nowadays, but unfortunetly that's more on the player base then anything. Don't hate the game, hate yourself for not taking a break or, better yet, for being obsessed with a g.a.m.e. .
*insert flame here*
I can agree with that for the most part, and I never said Blizzard wasnt a good group but I dont think WoW is as good a game as Diablo is but I get your point though I think Blizzard could have done better by WoW though so I understand they are workign on a new MMO so that should be intresting Im personaly hoping for somthing dark and grany im a bit done with light and shiny.
I didn't know that you're being forced to play WoW at gun's point. I'm sorry.
Who said anything about being forced to play anything?
The case in point is about something Zorn has been pushing as fact when its really subjection.
If you are gonna hop into a conversation, at least read it to know where you are and whats going on...
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I didn't know that you're being forced to play WoW at gun's point. I'm sorry.
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Again, you need to read the conversation to understand what is going on. Jumping in at the end without knowing what the conversation was about will lead to confusion.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Who said anything about being forced to play anything?
Then why do you insist on the "analogy" that implies a situation where you don't have a choice? :-)
The case in point is about something Zorn has been pushing as fact when its really subjection.
Subjective, you mean? Well, 92/100 average score from professional critics is hardly subjective. It's a fact.
Lol you are trying to hard now to change the focus of the argument.
The analogy stands firm because regardless of the whole choice of death thing, its a usage of statistics (something Zorn is using). It has nothing to do with choice, but with the fact that statistics doesnt mean something can be the 'best'. To be the best MMO is purely subjective and up to personal preference.
As for web scores and ratings, again they are not an indicator of something being the 'best' or not. Sure it can mean something like 'Best Selling' because those are hard numbers and fact. But to simply say the game is 'The Best' MMO is wholey subjective and upto personal preference. Its not a fact, no matter how you try to spin it.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I didn't know that you're being forced to play WoW at gun's point. I'm sorry.
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Some of the analogies are funny and they do manage to keep the discusion rolling though they typicaly pull away from the OP which if I recall was why does everyone hate WoW. The point though that WoW is not best just becasue of its sub numbers is valid I dont really think more people dislike wow than any other MMO though most every MMO on the market at the moment not accounting for legacy MMOs has put a bad taste in the gamers mouth, WoW whent uber easy mode, WAR was just a fail for most of us, AoC gave us half a great game, Aion I think the verdict is still out but Im sure it will tank. I say what we need is a re-skinning of one of teh truly great games no *major* mechanical changes just update the tech even some of the little known MMOs are structurly superior to any thing on the main market atm.
DAoC clasic, Horizons (or what ever they are calling it now), Vanguard, EQ, Asheron's Call I loved for years untill they when and broke the mechanics of the magic UO would awsome to but thats lookign backward looking forward I hope to see a talented MMO developer bring us a darker mature (as in dont shy away from content to save that ESRB rating) MMO, BioWare should do a Dragon Age MMO.
I didn't know that you're being forced to play WoW at gun's point. I'm sorry.
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Some of the analogies are funny and they do manage to keep the discusion rolling though they typicaly pull away from the OP which if I recall was why does everyone hate WoW. The point though that WoW is not best just becasue of its sub numbers is valid I dont really think more people dislike wow than any other MMO though most every MMO on the market at the moment not accounting for legacy MMOs has put a bad taste in the gamers mouth, WoW whent uber easy mode, WAR was just a fail for most of us, AoC gave us half a great game, Aion I think the verdict is still out but Im sure it will tank. I say what we need is a re-skinning of one of teh truly great games no *major* mechanical changes just update the tech even some of the little known MMOs are structurly superior to any thing on the main market atm.
DAoC clasic, Horizons (or what ever they are calling it now), Vanguard, EQ, Asheron's Call I loved for years untill they when and broke the mechanics of the magic UO would awsome to but thats lookign backward looking forward I hope to see a talented MMO developer bring us a darker mature (as in dont shy away from content to save that ESRB rating) MMO, BioWare should do a Dragon Age MMO.
I agree with most of your game list. I was really excited about DAoC Origins, then it kind of disappeared.
Original Everquest, with maybe Kunark expansion, updated graphics and UI but all the same mechanics of the original would be a wet dream for me. I did not like Everquest 2's spin on the original EQ areas though. Like Neriak in EQ2 and EQ1.
Dragon Age MMO could be a show stopper. Though it would be hard to translate some of what made that game so intriguing as a Single Player RPG to an MMO World. We'll see how it turns out for The Old Republic. If Bioware pulls it off well in that title, then we'll have a glimpse of what kind of potential a Dragon Age MMO would have.
Ya, the endless arguing resembles more bickering then actual discussion sometimes. Its hard to keep up with all the threads on basically the same subject. Does WoW suck or not...
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
It always boggles my mind how game developers still haven't caught on that having a 3 way RvR, like in DAoC, is the best (should be the only) way to do PvP. It's only been about 10 years....you'd think someone in one of the companies would get the picture.
Its the biggest MMORPG ever made, most popular, highest earning, and by far the most dominant. It'll be a long time before an MMORPG overpowers WoW, and with the new graphical update with Cataclysm, add a few more years onto that. The Lore of WoW also makes the limit of expansions quite high indeed. Why would Blizzard stop making a game that makes them billions? Only when WoW becomes very unpopular will that "crime" be dealt. So basically, I'm wondering why that with everyone thread posted, someone comes along and insults WoW. With 13 million active members, all paying £10 per month, it can't be that bad a game, can it? So why dis it as frequent as people do? Thanks!
People still smoke cigarettes, even though they have been known to cause lung cancer for years now. Just because tons of people do it doesnt make it right.
It always boggles my mind how game developers still haven't caught on that having a 3 way RvR, like in DAoC, is the best (should be the only) way to do PvP. It's only been about 10 years....you'd think someone in one of the companies would get the picture.
Totally agree, biggest disappointment about Mythic doing Warhammer was the 2 way warfare.
DAoC had the right concept. If Blizzard made a DAoC 2 it would end world wars. Everyone would play it even dictators.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
naw i don't hate it, bored with it? yeah very much so.i honestly don't even dislike it just can't play it anymore, played it for too long and just seemed like i was doing the same thing over and over. i can't blame them for not trying anything completely new, whats the old saying "ain't broke don't fix it" and they make a ton of money and don't want to chance anything.
It always boggles my mind how game developers still haven't caught on that having a 3 way RvR, like in DAoC, is the best (should be the only) way to do PvP. It's only been about 10 years....you'd think someone in one of the companies would get the picture.
I still can't believe people actually want 3 way RvR.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
It is not a bad game, at all. It was my first MMO. I finally got a good PC and so I jumped on board and I loved it. I am taking a break since I go back and forth between MMOs so I don't get tired. Forums are a place for Trolls to rip things apart because they usually are pathetic in life; you can easily discuss how much you hate a game in a very mature manner without coming off like a douche. I don't hate WoW. I don't hate any other MMOs. Competion is great...we need it so companies can keep bettering a product. Even if only 1 person played an MMO does not mean it is bad; that person loves it and it fits them perfectly. Some people get bored and just like to upset others. Whatever. Just block them out. WoW is great because otherwise 11+ million people would not pay for it. But for now I play Fallen Earth because I do need a break from WoW.
It always boggles my mind how game developers still haven't caught on that having a 3 way RvR, like in DAoC, is the best (should be the only) way to do PvP. It's only been about 10 years....you'd think someone in one of the companies would get the picture.
I still can't believe people actually want 3 way RvR.
You must be a developer.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
Right, so what your saying is that a game with 25,000 active players per month, can be better than something which has 13 million active players per month? There is no logic in that. If the 25,000 active players per month MMORPG was better, than surely it would be the other way around? And seeing as it isn't, it is safe to assume that World of Warcraft is the most dominant/best game the MMORPG genre has witnessed, and unless someone is prepared to spend many a million, it is likely to be the best game within the MMORPG genre for the distant future beyond with what we can comprehend wih, even if it's reign has ended. Thanks!
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Right, so what your saying is that a game with 25,000 active players per month, can be better than something which has 13 million active players per month? There is no logic in that. If the 25,000 active players per month MMORPG was better, than surely it would be the other way around? And seeing as it isn't, it is safe to assume that World of Warcraft is the most dominant/best game the MMORPG genre has witnessed, and unless someone is prepared to spend many a million, it is likely to be the best game within the MMORPG genre for the distant future beyond with what we can comprehend wih, even if it's reign has ended. Thanks!
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
-Benjamin Franklin
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
Right, so what your saying is that a game with 25,000 active players per month, can be better than something which has 13 million active players per month? There is no logic in that. If the 25,000 active players per month MMORPG was better, than surely it would be the other way around? And seeing as it isn't, it is safe to assume that World of Warcraft is the most dominant/best game the MMORPG genre has witnessed, and unless someone is prepared to spend many a million, it is likely to be the best game within the MMORPG genre for the distant future beyond with what we can comprehend wih, even if it's reign has ended. Thanks!
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Popularity does not mean lowest common denominator. In mathematics, lowest common denominator refers to numbers, a lower number is not inferior. When we talk about popularity, we talk about opinion, where there is no ranking, your view cannot be rank against mine, "lowest" does not exist. So you key argument is simply wrong everywhere.
Good marketing can bring people to place attention on a product, it does not help retention. Quality in the eyes of a customer retains them. A game that is popular is a game that delivers and satisfies more customers than others, over a reference period. This popularity can change, up or down. EQ1 is no longer popular now.
A "popular" game delivers, whether the game is good or bad depends on who is being asked. For those who sub to the game, it is a demonstrated "good" one. The only fact we can draw from such a situation is that more people in terms of numbers prefer this game to others. No valid conclusion on goodness or quality that applies to everyone, no universal goodness or badness conclusions, and definitely no way you can pretend to chalk up a phrase like "lowest common denominator" and pretend that to mean anything bad.
Writing in good clean english allows more people to understand, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator, blah blah blah, is that the kind of logic you are trying to present ... err actually there is no logic at all. Just pretentious twist of words and hideous connotations.
Comments
I am one of thouse who say WoW is to easy, dont like the graphical style, etc. etc. etc., what MMO am I playing . . . well I dont have a main MMO atm sad fact is the genre has gotten a bit well no simple way to discribe it.
WoW is not the god send that the fan boys like to say and its not the heap of crap that the anti-wow gamers like to spout; having said that both have there points. The Fan boys say the game is great they usualy only refrence the number of subscriptions WoW has which isn't a strong point in my book as another poster mentioned McDonalds sales more hambergers than any one else but they are by no means the best, Wallmart sales more of well prity much every thing but again not the best shear numbers by no means == best. What I do think WoW did well was to produce an easy to use fun game somthing that had not been done in the MMO genre to that point some what like Dell is to PCs are they the best lol I wont even answer that one but it is easy you dont have to know the ins and outs of all the hardware and for thouse who want easy its the best option for the rest of us its a paper weight at best.
So what is the best MMO on the market at the moment, well thats no easy answer MMO is a big genre with many sub genre, i.e. Sandbox, high fantasy, casual, etc. as far as the best over all I think that still belongs to one of the clasics but is beyodn the focus of this topic.
As to the OP question why every one bashes on it, people always pash on the title they are tiered of and a lot fo people are tiered of WoW 90% or better of thouse gripign about it to include my self are former WoW players and we are simply done with it odds are you will be there some day as well, that or you will be the WoW zelot that 10 years later gripes about the current generation of MMOs and how they distroyed the genre.
You need to define criteria or it's going nowhere. (OK, it's going nowhere in any case, but we can at least try. ;-) If popular equals poor quality for you than what can you say about Louvre? You are aware that several millions of people visit it every year, I hope. Gotta be total junk, eh?
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
It is not a question of "best". It is a question which one was the most succesful in money making AND critical acclaim.
If you can't live with this simple FACT in our society..... You're ignorant.
So WOW isnt the best game even though it makes the most money. Finally you have come to it.
It is the most succesful game (in money making) AND has the BEST scores in critical acclaim for ANY mmorpg by far.
So it certainly meets these two criteria to succes and best MMORPG ever.
Again no.
It meets the criteria to be 'Most Successful' but in no way meets any criteria to be 'The Best'.
Successful is easily gauged and can be proven. To be the best would require personal preferences, which CANT be proven as fact at all.
Now is it the best selling MMO? Yes.
Is it the 'Best' MMO? No.
See where your argument fails yet? No matter how many Web Stats you throw around or Revenue reports you post, it all means squat when trying to prove that the game is the 'best' mmo. Because no matter how hard you try to prove that it is, you cant. No one can for that matter. Its all subjective.
If anything you are more deserving of this lifetime account than I am. Its good till 2030
Wrong: the critical acclaim of ALL the websites show a 92.4% average rating which is almost 10% better than those "other" rated MMORPG's.
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/942519-world-of-warcraft-wrath-of-the-lich-king/index.html
Together with this critical acclaim average, it has - by far - the most revenu of ANY video game in 30 years history.
Ignoring this to prefer personal "IMO" is ... worthless for the general critical acclaim price of simply being ELECTED the best mmorpg ever by its monthly PAYING players AND reviewers.
You can always like another game more. But by our society standards: WOW WILL be considered the most succesful game EVER made... and so can considered to be the best by general consensus.
because people PAY (and vote) to play it.
Again you're wrong.
Just because its a 'critical success' still doesnt make it 'the best'.
Best Selling? Yes
Best MMO? Again no.
No matter how you try to make it sound like it is, it isnt. You cant say it is just because of general consensus either. Thats like saying because more people agree Lung Cancer kills more people per year than falling into a wood chipper means that Lung Cancer is the best way to die. Its has the big numbers, it makes a ton off treatments and has tons of articles on the web about it (with everyone agreeing that it kills more than a wood chipper). So by your estimations on stats and society standards it must be the best way to go.
Yeah... no thanks...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
As bad as WoW is (in my opinion anyway) it's better than the vast majority of MMORPGs that have come out since its release. It used to be that I looked upon WoW as a poor attempt at an MMORPG but when I compare WoW as it was in November of 04 to any game launching today...the new games are the ones that seem like hollow shells of games.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
You can choose what games to play though. Do you feel the difference?
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
You can choose what games to play though. Do you feel the difference?
Nice reach and deflection.
Analogy still fits the case at hand though, sorry
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I can agree with that for the most part, and I never said Blizzard wasnt a good group but I dont think WoW is as good a game as Diablo is but I get your point though I think Blizzard could have done better by WoW though so I understand they are workign on a new MMO so that should be intresting Im personaly hoping for somthing dark and grany im a bit done with light and shiny.
Who said anything about being forced to play anything?
The case in point is about something Zorn has been pushing as fact when its really subjection.
If you are gonna hop into a conversation, at least read it to know where you are and whats going on...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Again, you need to read the conversation to understand what is going on. Jumping in at the end without knowing what the conversation was about will lead to confusion.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Subjective, you mean? Well, 92/100 average score from professional critics is hardly subjective. It's a fact.Lol you are trying to hard now to change the focus of the argument.
The analogy stands firm because regardless of the whole choice of death thing, its a usage of statistics (something Zorn is using). It has nothing to do with choice, but with the fact that statistics doesnt mean something can be the 'best'. To be the best MMO is purely subjective and up to personal preference.
As for web scores and ratings, again they are not an indicator of something being the 'best' or not. Sure it can mean something like 'Best Selling' because those are hard numbers and fact. But to simply say the game is 'The Best' MMO is wholey subjective and upto personal preference. Its not a fact, no matter how you try to spin it.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Some of the analogies are funny and they do manage to keep the discusion rolling though they typicaly pull away from the OP which if I recall was why does everyone hate WoW. The point though that WoW is not best just becasue of its sub numbers is valid I dont really think more people dislike wow than any other MMO though most every MMO on the market at the moment not accounting for legacy MMOs has put a bad taste in the gamers mouth, WoW whent uber easy mode, WAR was just a fail for most of us, AoC gave us half a great game, Aion I think the verdict is still out but Im sure it will tank. I say what we need is a re-skinning of one of teh truly great games no *major* mechanical changes just update the tech even some of the little known MMOs are structurly superior to any thing on the main market atm.
DAoC clasic, Horizons (or what ever they are calling it now), Vanguard, EQ, Asheron's Call I loved for years untill they when and broke the mechanics of the magic UO would awsome to but thats lookign backward looking forward I hope to see a talented MMO developer bring us a darker mature (as in dont shy away from content to save that ESRB rating) MMO, BioWare should do a Dragon Age MMO.
Or any other game for that matter. You really came out of left field on that one Fyerwall even if referring to something Zorn posted.
Some like it, some don't. Why can't we agree to disagree and stop with the weird comparisons. They don't make either side look good.
Some of the analogies are funny and they do manage to keep the discusion rolling though they typicaly pull away from the OP which if I recall was why does everyone hate WoW. The point though that WoW is not best just becasue of its sub numbers is valid I dont really think more people dislike wow than any other MMO though most every MMO on the market at the moment not accounting for legacy MMOs has put a bad taste in the gamers mouth, WoW whent uber easy mode, WAR was just a fail for most of us, AoC gave us half a great game, Aion I think the verdict is still out but Im sure it will tank. I say what we need is a re-skinning of one of teh truly great games no *major* mechanical changes just update the tech even some of the little known MMOs are structurly superior to any thing on the main market atm.
DAoC clasic, Horizons (or what ever they are calling it now), Vanguard, EQ, Asheron's Call I loved for years untill they when and broke the mechanics of the magic UO would awsome to but thats lookign backward looking forward I hope to see a talented MMO developer bring us a darker mature (as in dont shy away from content to save that ESRB rating) MMO, BioWare should do a Dragon Age MMO.
I agree with most of your game list. I was really excited about DAoC Origins, then it kind of disappeared.
Original Everquest, with maybe Kunark expansion, updated graphics and UI but all the same mechanics of the original would be a wet dream for me. I did not like Everquest 2's spin on the original EQ areas though. Like Neriak in EQ2 and EQ1.
Dragon Age MMO could be a show stopper. Though it would be hard to translate some of what made that game so intriguing as a Single Player RPG to an MMO World. We'll see how it turns out for The Old Republic. If Bioware pulls it off well in that title, then we'll have a glimpse of what kind of potential a Dragon Age MMO would have.
Ya, the endless arguing resembles more bickering then actual discussion sometimes. Its hard to keep up with all the threads on basically the same subject. Does WoW suck or not...
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
It always boggles my mind how game developers still haven't caught on that having a 3 way RvR, like in DAoC, is the best (should be the only) way to do PvP. It's only been about 10 years....you'd think someone in one of the companies would get the picture.
People still smoke cigarettes, even though they have been known to cause lung cancer for years now. Just because tons of people do it doesnt make it right.
Totally agree, biggest disappointment about Mythic doing Warhammer was the 2 way warfare.
DAoC had the right concept. If Blizzard made a DAoC 2 it would end world wars. Everyone would play it even dictators.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
naw i don't hate it, bored with it? yeah very much so.i honestly don't even dislike it just can't play it anymore, played it for too long and just seemed like i was doing the same thing over and over. i can't blame them for not trying anything completely new, whats the old saying "ain't broke don't fix it" and they make a ton of money and don't want to chance anything.
I still can't believe people actually want 3 way RvR.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
It is not a bad game, at all. It was my first MMO. I finally got a good PC and so I jumped on board and I loved it. I am taking a break since I go back and forth between MMOs so I don't get tired. Forums are a place for Trolls to rip things apart because they usually are pathetic in life; you can easily discuss how much you hate a game in a very mature manner without coming off like a douche. I don't hate WoW. I don't hate any other MMOs. Competion is great...we need it so companies can keep bettering a product. Even if only 1 person played an MMO does not mean it is bad; that person loves it and it fits them perfectly. Some people get bored and just like to upset others. Whatever. Just block them out. WoW is great because otherwise 11+ million people would not pay for it. But for now I play Fallen Earth because I do need a break from WoW.
I still can't believe people actually want 3 way RvR.
You must be a developer.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
-Benjamin Franklin
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
Are you saying McDonald's is better than the Greenbrier?
Quantity != Quality
The arguments fail when you take them out of the video game industry.
The arguement holds true in all situations.
Popularity does not imply greatness, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator + good marketing.
Popularity does not mean lowest common denominator. In mathematics, lowest common denominator refers to numbers, a lower number is not inferior. When we talk about popularity, we talk about opinion, where there is no ranking, your view cannot be rank against mine, "lowest" does not exist. So you key argument is simply wrong everywhere.
Good marketing can bring people to place attention on a product, it does not help retention. Quality in the eyes of a customer retains them. A game that is popular is a game that delivers and satisfies more customers than others, over a reference period. This popularity can change, up or down. EQ1 is no longer popular now.
A "popular" game delivers, whether the game is good or bad depends on who is being asked. For those who sub to the game, it is a demonstrated "good" one. The only fact we can draw from such a situation is that more people in terms of numbers prefer this game to others. No valid conclusion on goodness or quality that applies to everyone, no universal goodness or badness conclusions, and definitely no way you can pretend to chalk up a phrase like "lowest common denominator" and pretend that to mean anything bad.
Writing in good clean english allows more people to understand, it implies appealing to the lowest common denominator, blah blah blah, is that the kind of logic you are trying to present ... err actually there is no logic at all. Just pretentious twist of words and hideous connotations.