Dude, I've already written PAGES of shit in this thread. If you want responses, go back and read some of my earlier posts here....I've already covered your points several times over.
I'm sick and tired of repeating myself. It's getting nowhere, and the whining isn't going to stop, this much is obvious.
Now...I have a siege to prepare for....a far better use of my time than trying to reason with the unreasonable.
Yeah, I've read most of your replies in this thread. They still don't address all the issues I brought up. Remember, I responded to YOUR own post, and made a response to EACH of your claims and points.
So again, all I'm asking is to reply to my points that I, not other people, made in response to YOUR post. That's all I'm asking for, because if you have valid counter-arguments to what I'm saying, I want to hear them. That's not too much to ask, because trust me, if you prove me wrong and show me how my arguments are flawed, I'll shut up and stop talking.
Until then, I'll be waiting for your well thought out replies.
Dude, I've already written PAGES of shit in this thread. If you want responses, go back and read some of my earlier posts here....I've already covered your points several times over.
I'm sick and tired of repeating myself. It's getting nowhere, and the whining isn't going to stop, this much is obvious.
Now...I have a siege to prepare for....a far better use of my time than trying to reason with the unreasonable.
Yeah, I've read most of your replies in this thread. They still don't address all the issues I brought up. Remember, I responded to YOUR own post, and made a response to EACH of your claims and points.
So again, all I'm asking is to reply to my points that I, not other people, made in response to YOUR post. That's all I'm asking for, because if you have valid counter-arguments to what I'm saying, I want to hear them. That's not too much to ask, because trust me, if you prove me wrong and show me how my arguments are flawed, I'll shut up and stop talking.
Until then, I'll be waiting for your well thought out replies.
Still waiting.............
Eh, you might wanna grab a seat if you're still waiting. It could be awhile as things have been explained to you and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness. People are only willing to repeat themselves so much. And besides, don't you guys have a crap ton of "grinding" to do. I'd think you'd have more important matters to attend to than to crawl around on the floor in neverending circles Come on, you're never going to be able to play competitively at this rate.
Truly amazing this thread is still kicking. The OP is either an elaborate troll or is in need of loads of attention. I originally was responding here in a genuine manner, but after seeing another thread created by the OP, I realized I was wasting my time. Don't quit your day job.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Eh, you might wanna grab a seat if you're still waiting. It could be awhile as things have been explained to you and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness. People are only willing to repeat themselves so much. And besides, don't you guys have a crap ton of "grinding" to do. I'd think you'd have more important matters to attend to than to crawl around on the floor in neverending circles Come on, you're never going to be able to play competitively at this rate.
No, they weren't explained to the point of ridiculousness. I made very valid points, points that others in this exact thread have not made, and are points being made by a veteran from EU-1 launch, and all I am asking for is a rebuttal to MY points. They were well thought out, and I made sure to articulate my points clearly so that my arguments were clear and precise. The fact that I have received private messages with people saying they fully agree with me on that post in particular, should be warrant enough for him to reply to me. If he is so confident in his opinions, it should be easy for him to put my claims and arguments to rest.
And trust me, saying that those of us that want to reduce the grind want things "NOW NOW NOW", an exact quote from his post I responded to, is not a valid argument and isn't what I would call something "explained to me and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness". That's not a valid argument at all, especially since my counter-argument to that claim has much more merit.
As for "don't you have a lot of grinding to do", I do have some grinding to do, but considering I'm at my full time job and after work have plans on going downtown with some friends, that will have to wait until I have free time that isn't dedicated to real life friends or responsibilities.
Truly amazing this thread is still kicking. The OP is either an elaborate troll or is in need of loads of attention. I originally was responding here in a genuine manner, but after seeing another thread created by the OP, I realized I was wasting my time. Don't quit your day job.
I won't, don't worry, seeing as I have $2500 a month in bills to pay. As for the OP, I could care less if he is a troll or not. I responded to a post that I found to be completely ridiculous, and made valid points and arguments. If the person I quoted is so confident in what he is saying, it should be easy for him to write a simple counter-post to my arguments.
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
So you're saying that the post I responded by Wharg0ul is enough to warrant an end to this discussion?
Let's see here, first he states this:
"I would have loved to see these whiners at release, before the accellerated XP gains were added.
Give them an inch, they want a mile."
And I respond as someone who WAS there during release, and instead of making a blanket statement like what is quoted, I actually make an argument and support my arguments.
Then, we get this gem:
"All I hear out of them is "I want it NOW!!! NOW!!!" like spoiled kids. I can almost see the foot stomping little tantrum that goes with it."
With which I again respond with an ACTUAL argument. If saying the people who want to reduce the grind or decrease the gap between veterans and new players want everything "NOW NOW" and are like spoiled kids is considered a valid and strong argument on MMORPG.com, then I officially have lost all faith in this forum.
Following the previously quoted, we get this:
"And besides, like I said....you don't NEED to rush the process. Enjoy it. Take your time, and enjoy the progress you are making. That's the point of an MMORPG anyway."
This is the first actual argument that is made in this post by Wharg0ul, with which I respond with another valid counter-argument.
Then:
"If you want to do something that you can't handle on your own....bring friends / guildies. That's how you do it in an MMORPG."
Here is another argument, which again I provide a counter-argument based around the fact that Darkfall is SUPPOSED to be a sandbox MMO.
Finally, we have this:
"What you're all in essence asking for is a FPS game. If that's what you want, go PLAY ONE."
Again, this is a blanket statement towards anyone that wants to change the grind/reduce the gap between veterans and new players, when in fact it is NO WHERE CLOSE to the kind of argument those of us who want to change this aspect of the game are asking for. Of course, I explain why this is the case, but again, if a statement like this is enough to "put the discussion to rest" , then it's a sad day in the world of intelligent debate and discussion.
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
So you're saying that the post I responded by Wharg0ul is enough to warrant an end to this discussion?
Let's see here, first he states this:
"I would have loved to see these whiners at release, before the accellerated XP gains were added.
Give them an inch, they want a mile."
And I respond as someone who WAS there during release, and instead of making a blanket statement like what is quoted, I actually make an argument and support my arguments.
Then, we get this gem:
"All I hear out of them is "I want it NOW!!! NOW!!!" like spoiled kids. I can almost see the foot stomping little tantrum that goes with it."
With which I again respond with an ACTUAL argument. If saying the people who want to reduce the grind or decrease the gap between veterans and new players want everything "NOW NOW" and are like spoiled kids is considered a valid and strong argument on MMORPG.com, then I officially have lost all faith in this forum.
Following the previously quoted, we get this:
"And besides, like I said....you don't NEED to rush the process. Enjoy it. Take your time, and enjoy the progress you are making. That's the point of an MMORPG anyway."
This is the first actual argument that is made in this post by Wharg0ul, with which I respond with another valid counter-argument.
Then:
"If you want to do something that you can't handle on your own....bring friends / guildies. That's how you do it in an MMORPG."
Here is another argument, which again I provide a counter-argument based around the fact that Darkfall is SUPPOSED to be a sandbox MMO.
Finally, we have this:
"What you're all in essence asking for is a FPS game. If that's what you want, go PLAY ONE."
Again, this is a blanket statement towards anyone that wants to change the grind/reduce the gap between veterans and new players, when in fact it is NO WHERE CLOSE to the kind of argument those of us who want to change this aspect of the game are asking for. Of course, I explain why this is the case, but again, if a statement like this is enough to "put the discussion to rest" , then it's a sad day in the world of intelligent debate and discussion.
Wow man, you really pwned him. Not only that, i also noticed that all the DF vets that are posting here bring the same argument again and again. To me, i see them as bots and i started ignoring some of them like xpiher for example.
We say we need faster progression to close the gap with vets faster, they ask us to go back to FPS games.
We ask for a skill cap, decay or hard cap, they ask us to go back to class base game that use rock paper scissors counter system.
We ask for more hardcore feature like stats loss or something like, they all start to get mad saying that they dont want to lose their progressions since release.
I could go on, but il stop here.
For the girl above me, yes, you just wasted your 50$
Wow man, you really pwned him. Not only that, i also noticed that all the DF vets that are posting here bring the same argument again and again. To me, i see them as bots and i started ignoring some of them like xpiher for example.
We say we need faster progression to close the gap with vets faster, they ask us to go back to FPS games. We ask for a skill cap, decay or hard cap, they ask us to go back to class base game that use rock paper scissors counter system. We ask for more hardcore feature like stats loss or something like, they all start to get mad saying that they dont want to lose their progressions since release. I could go on, but il stop here. For the girl above me, yes, you just wasted your 50$
Nobody owns me, I am my own master thanks.
Look, I missed out on the early days of this game so I'm in the same boat as you guys. I refuse to macro (in any game) as well, so I have had to play the underdog for a time too. The grind has already been reduced significantly since launch. At what point does character development get where it's slow enough to satisfy you? When that point is reached and you're happy, what do you then say to those that want to make character progression even faster?
Many of us are suggesting other games and even other genres, because some of you are going to keep trying to change this game to the point where it will not even be the same game.
LOL about you giving props to wh0astar for that little troll fart.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Look, I missed out on the early days of this game so I'm in the same boat as you guys. I refuse to macro (in any game) as well, so I have had to play the underdog for a time too. The grind has already been reduced significantly since launch. At what point does developping your character get where it's slow enogh to satisfy you? When that point is reached and you're happy, what do you then say to those that want to make character progression even faster?
Many of us are suggesting other games and even other genres, because some of you are going to keep trying to change this game to the point where it will not even be the same game.
LOL about you giving props to wh0astar for that little troll fart.
I think he was talking about me "pwning" wharg0ul, not you.
Anyway, I would be fine with keeping the grind exactly the same as it is now, if they changed how stats and skill levels affect your character. People aren't trying to change the game to make it ANYWHERE near an FPS, but having someone like Paragus, who just released a new article, have all stats less than 50 (not a single one past 50) after TWO AND A HALF MONTHS OF PLAYING, is pretty god damn ridiculous in my opinion.
You want to know how I think they can resolve this issue without decreasing the grind a single iota? Take a look at this idea, and tell me what you think about it. Not the EXACT numbers of course, but the concept. The top graph is how stats/skills affect your character today, the bottom graph is a representation of, in my opinion, how they should actually affect your character. The grind is EXACTLY THE SAME, but new players are able to close the gap in a much more reasonable time frame, while still providing great combat advantages to veterans.
Numbers have to be adjusted kasmos a person with 50/50 vit shouldn't get 400 hp, maybe 350. As I've said in that thread, having 300 hp is plenty in most situations execpt the odd time that you go up against a person with say 425 because 100 more hp is only an advantage of say 2-4 hits.
Numbers have to be adjusted kasmos a person with 50/50 vit shouldn't get 400 hp, maybe 350. As I've said in that thread, having 300 hp is plenty in most situations execpt the odd time that you go up against a person with say 425 because 100 more hp is only an advantage of say 2-4 hits.
Yes, I do agree that numbers have to be adjusted. I think 400 HP at 50/50 strength/vitality is too high, but I also think that this kind of "scaling", if you want to call it that, could and should apply to all stats, and even skills. The only way this would work with skills, however, is if they changed how they currently scale (i.e. every 25 levels or so) to something where every single time you level up, there is some sort of change. Thus, like with stats, you "gain" more towards your character during lower skill levels, and less during higher skill levels, so that the skill gains towards your character would follow a similar pattern like the bottom graph shows.
Numbers have to be adjusted kasmos a person with 50/50 vit shouldn't get 400 hp, maybe 350. As I've said in that thread, having 300 hp is plenty in most situations execpt the odd time that you go up against a person with say 425 because 100 more hp is only an advantage of say 2-4 hits.
Yes, I do agree that numbers have to be adjusted. I think 400 HP at 50/50 strength/vitality is too high, but I also think that this kind of "scaling", if you want to call it that, could and should apply to all stats, and even skills. The only way this would work with skills, however, is if they changed how they currently scale (i.e. every 25 levels or so) to something where every single time you level up, there is some sort of change. Thus, like with stats, you "gain" more towards your character during lower skill levels, and less during higher skill levels, so that the skill gains towards your character would follow a similar pattern like the bottom graph shows.
Damage tends to scale every 5-10 levels. The difference is just very very slight due to the fact that max damage is low.
I think he was talking about me "pwning" wharg0ul, not you. Anyway, I would be fine with keeping the grind exactly the same as it is now, if they changed how stats and skill levels affect your character. People aren't trying to change the game to make it ANYWHERE near an FPS, but having someone like Paragus, who just released a new article, have all stats less than 50 (not a single one past 50) after TWO AND A HALF MONTHS OF PLAYING, is pretty god damn ridiculous in my opinion. You want to know how I think they can resolve this issue without decreasing the grind a single iota? Take a look at this idea, and tell me what you think about it. Not the EXACT numbers of course, but the concept. The top graph is how stats/skills affect your character today, the bottom graph is a representation of, in my opinion, how they should actually affect your character. The grind is EXACTLY THE SAME, but new players are able to close the gap in a much more reasonable time frame, while still providing great combat advantages to veterans. The graphs can be found here: img189.imageshack.us/img189/6446/statgraph.png The thread that goes in more detail on this suggestion can be found here: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php I eagerly await your response.
There was a link in that thread to another thread that had a post that summed things up nicely.
" Now, I'm fairly experienced at ending things prematurely so..
A handful of people who support a stat gain change will post here (Eg. Kraznor, MrDDT).
A different handful of people who oppose the stat gain change will post here (Eg. xipher, SoullessAvenger, Banka Plix).
People are going to complain that there are already threads on this topic, and there's no need for a million threads.
It's going to look similar to other threads like it, but one thing is certain. And that, is that nothing will be gained from this thread - No new information or ideas will be formed, it will simply be a repetition of the last thread on this topic."
I understand what you're asking for, I just have to respectably disagree.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm still against doing this as things stand now. AV needs to add in more content: ways to particapate in large scale battles without being in a clan, non-pvp options, more crafting options, more specs, etc before lowering the over all grind in any fashion. Once that is done, then AV should look at this idea.
I think he was talking about me "pwning" wharg0ul, not you. Anyway, I would be fine with keeping the grind exactly the same as it is now, if they changed how stats and skill levels affect your character. People aren't trying to change the game to make it ANYWHERE near an FPS, but having someone like Paragus, who just released a new article, have all stats less than 50 (not a single one past 50) after TWO AND A HALF MONTHS OF PLAYING, is pretty god damn ridiculous in my opinion. You want to know how I think they can resolve this issue without decreasing the grind a single iota? Take a look at this idea, and tell me what you think about it. Not the EXACT numbers of course, but the concept. The top graph is how stats/skills affect your character today, the bottom graph is a representation of, in my opinion, how they should actually affect your character. The grind is EXACTLY THE SAME, but new players are able to close the gap in a much more reasonable time frame, while still providing great combat advantages to veterans. The graphs can be found here: img189.imageshack.us/img189/6446/statgraph.png The thread that goes in more detail on this suggestion can be found here: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php I eagerly await your response.
Paragus has also Necro at 100, in just 2 months.
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
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As you can see, I'm a BIT busy playing the game....you wanna sit here and cry and miss out on the fun, be my guest, but IMO you're "pwning" YOURSELVES by doing so.
Ya here's a tidbit from that link...."The speed at which skills raise above 50 slows down a fair amount, and even more so at 75."
I'm not sure how much more they want things changed.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I understand what you're asking for, I just have to respectably disagree.
*sigh*....... Fine, you respectably disagree, but that isn't how you have a discussion on a forum. If you respectably disagree, why? All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why the concept that I linked and quoted is a bad one. If you respectably disagree, then you can at least respectably defend your opinion, can't you?
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
My god, seriously people, STOP saying the second graph shows exactly how it is right now. IT DOESN'T. If it did, I wouldn't be advocating implementing it, would I?
The second graph would show how STAT LEVELS RAISE if the Y-AXIS represented TIME. Guess what? IT DOESN'T REPRESENT TIME. It represents HIT POINTS.
Thus, the second graph DOES NOT REPRESENT HOW IT IS IN GAME NOW, not in the SLIGHTEST bit.
The suggestion (which originated from forum user melipone) suggests leaving the amount of TIME it takes to level up stats the EXACT SAME, but instead changing how EACH STAT LEVEL affects your character. Thus, even though from stat levels 20-50 you can gain them the quickest, you'd also get a larger amount of hit points (or whatever the stat affects) towards your character, meaning you can close the gap reasonably in a much quicker time, but you still have a lot to work towards (i.e. character progression) from 51-110.
........ do you understand now? Or is it STILL going over your head?
I'm not sure what to say. The game's PVE is underrated, but on many days I couldn't avoid the PVP if I tried. Frankly I'm amazed anyone would find this particular problem with Darkfall. Perhaps this is another case of someone hanging out too close to the starter towns for way too long. Big mistake in this game. Also not joining a clan and understanding why there are few players in those areas could also be the culprit.
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
My god, seriously people, STOP saying the second graph shows exactly how it is right now. IT DOESN'T. If it did, I wouldn't be advocating implementing it, would I?
The second graph would show how STAT LEVELS RAISE if the Y-AXIS represented TIME. Guess what? IT DOESN'T REPRESENT TIME. It represents HIT POINTS.
Thus, the second graph DOES NOT REPRESENT HOW IT IS IN GAME NOW, not in the SLIGHTEST bit.
The suggestion (which originated from forum user melipone) suggests leaving the amount of TIME it takes to level up stats the EXACT SAME, but instead changing how EACH STAT LEVEL affects your character. Thus, even though from stat levels 20-50 you can gain them the quickest, you'd also get a larger amount of hit points (or whatever the stat affects) towards your character, meaning you can close the gap reasonably in a much quicker time, but you still have a lot to work towards (i.e. character progression) from 51-110.
........ do you understand now? Or is it STILL going over your head?
What you don't undertstand is that time is correlated to levels and that is the X-AXIS (see i have pointed you to levels and the X-AXIS in my post). If you would take that into account the resulting graph of how it IS in game RIGHT now is what you suggest with the difference of a MUCH steeper graph.
Scale the x -axis right and you see how wrong you are with your "linear" skill progression claim in picture A and how the graph will start to look like picture B.
(don't say again its not about time see all you want is FASTER stat progression on early level btw)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
What you don't undertstand is that time is correlated to levels and that is the X-AXIS (see i have pointed you to levels and the X-AXIS in my post). If you would take that into account the resulting graph of how it IS in game RIGHT now is what you suggest with the difference of a MUCH steeper graph.
Scale the x -axis right and you see how wrong you are with your "linear" skill progression claim in picture A and how the graph will start to look like picture B.
(don't say again its not about time see all you want is FASTER stat progression on early level btw)
Dude, I'm not trying to be offensive, but you really have no idea what you're talking about, and if we're going to have an actual discussion on this topic, you need to understand what you're arguing against. So, I altered that graph made by MELIPONE and made one of my own. If you need me to also make you another graph that shows TIME VS. STAT LEVELS, I can do that for you as well.
And I don't want FASTER stat progression (i.e. faster leveling of stat levels), I want stat levels to have MORE EFFECT on your character earlier on, and have LESSEFFECT later on.
Do you understand now? Can we now have a discussion?
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (it has happened once or twice), but it seems like a lot of the people complaining about the "grind" want to level their skills in a minimal amount of time to get into the "hardcore pvp" in this MMORPG.
Don't forget it is an RPG, not an MMOFPS. I'm sure there are a fair few players like me who are just enjoying building their characters up at their own pace, rather than worrying about how many skill gains the other players have. Isn't every MMO the same? Unless you start on day one you'll always be behind someone.
Maybe it's just me (my GF says if I were any more relaxed I'd fall over) but I'm quite happy slowly exploring DF and enjoying the game. Skilling up my character is something that happens while I do this, it's not the reason I'm playing.
I think some people complain just for the sake of complaining. I agree Darkfall can improve the security of the new players but complaining about having to actually play the game to skill up is ridiculous. Why not just go E-bay your new character if it's such a hassle playing the game?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
Dude, I've already written PAGES of shit in this thread. If you want responses, go back and read some of my earlier posts here....I've already covered your points several times over.
I'm sick and tired of repeating myself. It's getting nowhere, and the whining isn't going to stop, this much is obvious.
Now...I have a siege to prepare for....a far better use of my time than trying to reason with the unreasonable.
Yeah, I've read most of your replies in this thread. They still don't address all the issues I brought up. Remember, I responded to YOUR own post, and made a response to EACH of your claims and points.
So again, all I'm asking is to reply to my points that I, not other people, made in response to YOUR post. That's all I'm asking for, because if you have valid counter-arguments to what I'm saying, I want to hear them. That's not too much to ask, because trust me, if you prove me wrong and show me how my arguments are flawed, I'll shut up and stop talking.
Until then, I'll be waiting for your well thought out replies.
Still waiting.............
Dude, I've already written PAGES of shit in this thread. If you want responses, go back and read some of my earlier posts here....I've already covered your points several times over.
I'm sick and tired of repeating myself. It's getting nowhere, and the whining isn't going to stop, this much is obvious.
Now...I have a siege to prepare for....a far better use of my time than trying to reason with the unreasonable.
Yeah, I've read most of your replies in this thread. They still don't address all the issues I brought up. Remember, I responded to YOUR own post, and made a response to EACH of your claims and points.
So again, all I'm asking is to reply to my points that I, not other people, made in response to YOUR post. That's all I'm asking for, because if you have valid counter-arguments to what I'm saying, I want to hear them. That's not too much to ask, because trust me, if you prove me wrong and show me how my arguments are flawed, I'll shut up and stop talking.
Until then, I'll be waiting for your well thought out replies.
Still waiting.............
Eh, you might wanna grab a seat if you're still waiting. It could be awhile as things have been explained to you and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness. People are only willing to repeat themselves so much. And besides, don't you guys have a crap ton of "grinding" to do. I'd think you'd have more important matters to attend to than to crawl around on the floor in neverending circles
Come on, you're never going to be able to play competitively at this rate.
Truly amazing this thread is still kicking. The OP is either an elaborate troll or is in need of loads of attention. I originally was responding here in a genuine manner, but after seeing another thread created by the OP, I realized I was wasting my time. Don't quit your day job.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Eh, you might wanna grab a seat if you're still waiting. It could be awhile as things have been explained to you and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness. People are only willing to repeat themselves so much. And besides, don't you guys have a crap ton of "grinding" to do. I'd think you'd have more important matters to attend to than to crawl around on the floor in neverending circles
Come on, you're never going to be able to play competitively at this rate.
No, they weren't explained to the point of ridiculousness. I made very valid points, points that others in this exact thread have not made, and are points being made by a veteran from EU-1 launch, and all I am asking for is a rebuttal to MY points. They were well thought out, and I made sure to articulate my points clearly so that my arguments were clear and precise. The fact that I have received private messages with people saying they fully agree with me on that post in particular, should be warrant enough for him to reply to me. If he is so confident in his opinions, it should be easy for him to put my claims and arguments to rest.
And trust me, saying that those of us that want to reduce the grind want things "NOW NOW NOW", an exact quote from his post I responded to, is not a valid argument and isn't what I would call something "explained to me and a couple of others to the point of ridiculousness". That's not a valid argument at all, especially since my counter-argument to that claim has much more merit.
As for "don't you have a lot of grinding to do", I do have some grinding to do, but considering I'm at my full time job and after work have plans on going downtown with some friends, that will have to wait until I have free time that isn't dedicated to real life friends or responsibilities.
Truly amazing this thread is still kicking. The OP is either an elaborate troll or is in need of loads of attention. I originally was responding here in a genuine manner, but after seeing another thread created by the OP, I realized I was wasting my time. Don't quit your day job.
I won't, don't worry, seeing as I have $2500 a month in bills to pay. As for the OP, I could care less if he is a troll or not. I responded to a post that I found to be completely ridiculous, and made valid points and arguments. If the person I quoted is so confident in what he is saying, it should be easy for him to write a simple counter-post to my arguments.
So, without further ado, I'm still waiting.
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
So you're saying that the post I responded by Wharg0ul is enough to warrant an end to this discussion?
Let's see here, first he states this:
"I would have loved to see these whiners at release, before the accellerated XP gains were added.
Give them an inch, they want a mile."
And I respond as someone who WAS there during release, and instead of making a blanket statement like what is quoted, I actually make an argument and support my arguments.
Then, we get this gem:
"All I hear out of them is "I want it NOW!!! NOW!!!" like spoiled kids. I can almost see the foot stomping little tantrum that goes with it."
With which I again respond with an ACTUAL argument. If saying the people who want to reduce the grind or decrease the gap between veterans and new players want everything "NOW NOW" and are like spoiled kids is considered a valid and strong argument on MMORPG.com, then I officially have lost all faith in this forum.
Following the previously quoted, we get this:
"And besides, like I said....you don't NEED to rush the process. Enjoy it. Take your time, and enjoy the progress you are making. That's the point of an MMORPG anyway."
This is the first actual argument that is made in this post by Wharg0ul, with which I respond with another valid counter-argument.
Then:
"If you want to do something that you can't handle on your own....bring friends / guildies. That's how you do it in an MMORPG."
Here is another argument, which again I provide a counter-argument based around the fact that Darkfall is SUPPOSED to be a sandbox MMO.
Finally, we have this:
"What you're all in essence asking for is a FPS game. If that's what you want, go PLAY ONE."
Again, this is a blanket statement towards anyone that wants to change the grind/reduce the gap between veterans and new players, when in fact it is NO WHERE CLOSE to the kind of argument those of us who want to change this aspect of the game are asking for. Of course, I explain why this is the case, but again, if a statement like this is enough to "put the discussion to rest" , then it's a sad day in the world of intelligent debate and discussion.
Oh well (*passes Kasmos a chair to aid in his inevitable wait*), I'm off to go improve my character and have some early afternoon fun. Enjoy yourself.
So you're saying that the post I responded by Wharg0ul is enough to warrant an end to this discussion?
Let's see here, first he states this:
"I would have loved to see these whiners at release, before the accellerated XP gains were added.
Give them an inch, they want a mile."
And I respond as someone who WAS there during release, and instead of making a blanket statement like what is quoted, I actually make an argument and support my arguments.
Then, we get this gem:
"All I hear out of them is "I want it NOW!!! NOW!!!" like spoiled kids. I can almost see the foot stomping little tantrum that goes with it."
With which I again respond with an ACTUAL argument. If saying the people who want to reduce the grind or decrease the gap between veterans and new players want everything "NOW NOW" and are like spoiled kids is considered a valid and strong argument on MMORPG.com, then I officially have lost all faith in this forum.
Following the previously quoted, we get this:
"And besides, like I said....you don't NEED to rush the process. Enjoy it. Take your time, and enjoy the progress you are making. That's the point of an MMORPG anyway."
This is the first actual argument that is made in this post by Wharg0ul, with which I respond with another valid counter-argument.
Then:
"If you want to do something that you can't handle on your own....bring friends / guildies. That's how you do it in an MMORPG."
Here is another argument, which again I provide a counter-argument based around the fact that Darkfall is SUPPOSED to be a sandbox MMO.
Finally, we have this:
"What you're all in essence asking for is a FPS game. If that's what you want, go PLAY ONE."
Again, this is a blanket statement towards anyone that wants to change the grind/reduce the gap between veterans and new players, when in fact it is NO WHERE CLOSE to the kind of argument those of us who want to change this aspect of the game are asking for. Of course, I explain why this is the case, but again, if a statement like this is enough to "put the discussion to rest" , then it's a sad day in the world of intelligent debate and discussion.
Wow man, you really pwned him. Not only that, i also noticed that all the DF vets that are posting here bring the same argument again and again. To me, i see them as bots and i started ignoring some of them like xpiher for example.
We say we need faster progression to close the gap with vets faster, they ask us to go back to FPS games.
We ask for a skill cap, decay or hard cap, they ask us to go back to class base game that use rock paper scissors counter system.
We ask for more hardcore feature like stats loss or something like, they all start to get mad saying that they dont want to lose their progressions since release.
I could go on, but il stop here.
For the girl above me, yes, you just wasted your 50$
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
Nobody owns me, I am my own master thanks.
Look, I missed out on the early days of this game so I'm in the same boat as you guys. I refuse to macro (in any game) as well, so I have had to play the underdog for a time too. The grind has already been reduced significantly since launch. At what point does character development get where it's slow enough to satisfy you? When that point is reached and you're happy, what do you then say to those that want to make character progression even faster?
Many of us are suggesting other games and even other genres, because some of you are going to keep trying to change this game to the point where it will not even be the same game.
LOL about you giving props to wh0astar for that little troll fart.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Nobody owns me, I am my own master thanks.
Look, I missed out on the early days of this game so I'm in the same boat as you guys. I refuse to macro (in any game) as well, so I have had to play the underdog for a time too. The grind has already been reduced significantly since launch. At what point does developping your character get where it's slow enogh to satisfy you? When that point is reached and you're happy, what do you then say to those that want to make character progression even faster?
Many of us are suggesting other games and even other genres, because some of you are going to keep trying to change this game to the point where it will not even be the same game.
LOL about you giving props to wh0astar for that little troll fart.
I think he was talking about me "pwning" wharg0ul, not you.
Anyway, I would be fine with keeping the grind exactly the same as it is now, if they changed how stats and skill levels affect your character. People aren't trying to change the game to make it ANYWHERE near an FPS, but having someone like Paragus, who just released a new article, have all stats less than 50 (not a single one past 50) after TWO AND A HALF MONTHS OF PLAYING, is pretty god damn ridiculous in my opinion.
You want to know how I think they can resolve this issue without decreasing the grind a single iota? Take a look at this idea, and tell me what you think about it. Not the EXACT numbers of course, but the concept. The top graph is how stats/skills affect your character today, the bottom graph is a representation of, in my opinion, how they should actually affect your character. The grind is EXACTLY THE SAME, but new players are able to close the gap in a much more reasonable time frame, while still providing great combat advantages to veterans.
The graphs can be found here: img189.imageshack.us/img189/6446/statgraph.png
The thread that goes in more detail on this suggestion can be found here: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
I eagerly await your response.
Numbers have to be adjusted kasmos a person with 50/50 vit shouldn't get 400 hp, maybe 350. As I've said in that thread, having 300 hp is plenty in most situations execpt the odd time that you go up against a person with say 425 because 100 more hp is only an advantage of say 2-4 hits.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Yes, I do agree that numbers have to be adjusted. I think 400 HP at 50/50 strength/vitality is too high, but I also think that this kind of "scaling", if you want to call it that, could and should apply to all stats, and even skills. The only way this would work with skills, however, is if they changed how they currently scale (i.e. every 25 levels or so) to something where every single time you level up, there is some sort of change. Thus, like with stats, you "gain" more towards your character during lower skill levels, and less during higher skill levels, so that the skill gains towards your character would follow a similar pattern like the bottom graph shows.
Yes, I do agree that numbers have to be adjusted. I think 400 HP at 50/50 strength/vitality is too high, but I also think that this kind of "scaling", if you want to call it that, could and should apply to all stats, and even skills. The only way this would work with skills, however, is if they changed how they currently scale (i.e. every 25 levels or so) to something where every single time you level up, there is some sort of change. Thus, like with stats, you "gain" more towards your character during lower skill levels, and less during higher skill levels, so that the skill gains towards your character would follow a similar pattern like the bottom graph shows.
Damage tends to scale every 5-10 levels. The difference is just very very slight due to the fact that max damage is low.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
There was a link in that thread to another thread that had a post that summed things up nicely.
---------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Jayaris
" Now, I'm fairly experienced at ending things prematurely so..
A handful of people who support a stat gain change will post here (Eg. Kraznor, MrDDT).
A different handful of people who oppose the stat gain change will post here (Eg. xipher, SoullessAvenger, Banka Plix).
People are going to complain that there are already threads on this topic, and there's no need for a million threads.
It's going to look similar to other threads like it, but one thing is certain. And that, is that nothing will be gained from this thread - No new information or ideas will be formed, it will simply be a repetition of the last thread on this topic."
----------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you're asking for, I just have to respectably disagree.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm still against doing this as things stand now. AV needs to add in more content: ways to particapate in large scale battles without being in a clan, non-pvp options, more crafting options, more specs, etc before lowering the over all grind in any fashion. Once that is done, then AV should look at this idea.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Paragus has also Necro at 100, in just 2 months.
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
No....sorry, no one "pwned" me....
"[23:51:16] The UnDeAd Army was challenged by Shadow Syndicate for control over Ul'Hamra. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours.
[23:53:16] Imperil was challenged by Cycles Nukes IRL for control over Ghanalaj. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours.
[23:58:04] Lords of the Dead was challenged by Death To TardCon for control over Spear Waters. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours.
[00:13:06] The Tenth was challenged by CRABS for control over Silmiyat. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours.
[00:14:15] Lords of Death was challenged by Homeland Security for control over Erinthel. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours.
[00:27:26] Section Eight was challenged by Macabre for control over Ul'Sulak. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours. (sale)
[00:56:11] Covenant of the Phoenix was challenged by my little pony for control over Alberworth. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours. (likely self-siege)
[01:35:52] Evil Bastages was challenged by GumDrops for control over Oethrain. The challenge will active in 22.0 hours."
As you can see, I'm a BIT busy playing the game....you wanna sit here and cry and miss out on the fun, be my guest, but IMO you're "pwning" YOURSELVES by doing so.
By the way....might wanna take a look at this.... http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Paragus1/022010/5732_Darkfall-Progression-and-Sieging.html
Ya here's a tidbit from that link...."The speed at which skills raise above 50 slows down a fair amount, and even more so at 75."
I'm not sure how much more they want things changed.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I understand what you're asking for, I just have to respectably disagree.
*sigh*....... Fine, you respectably disagree, but that isn't how you have a discussion on a forum. If you respectably disagree, why? All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why the concept that I linked and quoted is a bad one. If you respectably disagree, then you can at least respectably defend your opinion, can't you?
Paragus has also Necro at 100, in just 2 months.
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
My god, seriously people, STOP saying the second graph shows exactly how it is right now. IT DOESN'T. If it did, I wouldn't be advocating implementing it, would I?
The second graph would show how STAT LEVELS RAISE if the Y-AXIS represented TIME. Guess what? IT DOESN'T REPRESENT TIME. It represents HIT POINTS.
Thus, the second graph DOES NOT REPRESENT HOW IT IS IN GAME NOW, not in the SLIGHTEST bit.
The suggestion (which originated from forum user melipone) suggests leaving the amount of TIME it takes to level up stats the EXACT SAME, but instead changing how EACH STAT LEVEL affects your character. Thus, even though from stat levels 20-50 you can gain them the quickest, you'd also get a larger amount of hit points (or whatever the stat affects) towards your character, meaning you can close the gap reasonably in a much quicker time, but you still have a lot to work towards (i.e. character progression) from 51-110.
........ do you understand now? Or is it STILL going over your head?
this
Paragus has also Necro at 100, in just 2 months.
The second graph shows exactly how it IS right now. The first graph in which you try to present the current state misses the fact that gaining 1level in stat needs more investment in higher level then in lower.
Yes 1 vit will always give 2 health but the 1 vit from 40 to 41 for example needs less work then the 1 vit from 83 to 84. Your suggestion is already in game.
My god, seriously people, STOP saying the second graph shows exactly how it is right now. IT DOESN'T. If it did, I wouldn't be advocating implementing it, would I?
The second graph would show how STAT LEVELS RAISE if the Y-AXIS represented TIME. Guess what? IT DOESN'T REPRESENT TIME. It represents HIT POINTS.
Thus, the second graph DOES NOT REPRESENT HOW IT IS IN GAME NOW, not in the SLIGHTEST bit.
The suggestion (which originated from forum user melipone) suggests leaving the amount of TIME it takes to level up stats the EXACT SAME, but instead changing how EACH STAT LEVEL affects your character. Thus, even though from stat levels 20-50 you can gain them the quickest, you'd also get a larger amount of hit points (or whatever the stat affects) towards your character, meaning you can close the gap reasonably in a much quicker time, but you still have a lot to work towards (i.e. character progression) from 51-110.
........ do you understand now? Or is it STILL going over your head?
What you don't undertstand is that time is correlated to levels and that is the X-AXIS (see i have pointed you to levels and the X-AXIS in my post). If you would take that into account the resulting graph of how it IS in game RIGHT now is what you suggest with the difference of a MUCH steeper graph.
Scale the x -axis right and you see how wrong you are with your "linear" skill progression claim in picture A and how the graph will start to look like picture B.
(don't say again its not about time see all you want is FASTER stat progression on early level btw)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
What you don't undertstand is that time is correlated to levels and that is the X-AXIS (see i have pointed you to levels and the X-AXIS in my post). If you would take that into account the resulting graph of how it IS in game RIGHT now is what you suggest with the difference of a MUCH steeper graph.
Scale the x -axis right and you see how wrong you are with your "linear" skill progression claim in picture A and how the graph will start to look like picture B.
(don't say again its not about time see all you want is FASTER stat progression on early level btw)
Dude, I'm not trying to be offensive, but you really have no idea what you're talking about, and if we're going to have an actual discussion on this topic, you need to understand what you're arguing against. So, I altered that graph made by MELIPONE and made one of my own. If you need me to also make you another graph that shows TIME VS. STAT LEVELS, I can do that for you as well.
img7.imageshack.us/img7/513/graph1le.png
And I don't want FASTER stat progression (i.e. faster leveling of stat levels), I want stat levels to have MORE EFFECT on your character earlier on, and have LESS EFFECT later on.
Do you understand now? Can we now have a discussion?
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (it has happened once or twice), but it seems like a lot of the people complaining about the "grind" want to level their skills in a minimal amount of time to get into the "hardcore pvp" in this MMORPG.
Don't forget it is an RPG, not an MMOFPS. I'm sure there are a fair few players like me who are just enjoying building their characters up at their own pace, rather than worrying about how many skill gains the other players have. Isn't every MMO the same? Unless you start on day one you'll always be behind someone.
Maybe it's just me (my GF says if I were any more relaxed I'd fall over) but I'm quite happy slowly exploring DF and enjoying the game. Skilling up my character is something that happens while I do this, it's not the reason I'm playing.
I think some people complain just for the sake of complaining. I agree Darkfall can improve the security of the new players but complaining about having to actually play the game to skill up is ridiculous. Why not just go E-bay your new character if it's such a hassle playing the game?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Seriously?
Seriously?
Yes apparently. It's the same in every post.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb