1. They're never really free (if you want to have a good character)
2. They're always poorly developed compared to P2P games
3. Having to maintain subs is a terrific incentive for Devs in P2P to keep creating new content and improving existing content
4. Not having to maintain subs is terrific incentive for Devs for F2P games to primarily focus on creating new micro-transactions and reasons to buy micro-transactions instead of content
5. Usually less of a Dev staff meaning cheating and duping goes unpunished in F2P
5. I've never played a F2P that I actually found fun.
In a subscription based game, you pay for $15 and you know that you have access to the same exact content as every one else. The only thing that separates you and the guy decked out in all best gear is the fact that he dedicated time to attain that gear and you didn't. Obviously, in the real world, not everyone has the ability to dedicate enough time to get the same gear but the option is always there, if you choose. We're all on equal footing, if you will. In a F2P game, you just know that the guy wearing the best gear spent a few hundred dollars to get it.
Bingo. Hit the nail on the head and I've made that same argument many times myself.
In a P2P MMO, I know that if I want to put in enough time I can get anything in the game anyone else has and pay no more or less than they have to do so.
The common argument against that is that "players are punished because they don't have as much time to play". I mean, seriously.. punished? Yes... people have seriously played the victim card about how "unfair it is that others have more time to play than they do". That's not unfair. That's called life. Unfortunately, we live in a time where instead of rising to meet a challenge, or put forth the effort to achieve a goal, people would prefer the bar be lowered so it's easier to reach, or the goal be made easier so it takes less effort to achieve. This is where the whole "dumbing down" concept stems from... it's not only in video games.
Here's a way of looking at it...
Say a goal takes 40 hours of play time to achieve. Bill has 30 hours per week to play. Jim has 20 hours a week to play. Tom has 10 hours a week.
It'll take Bill a little over 1 week to achieve the goal.
It'll take Jim 2 weeks.
It'll take Tom 4 weeks.
They each pay the same monthly sub fee to play the game.
It took them all the same 40 hours of play time, it was simply distributed differently based on how much time each has to play. Is Tom being "punished" for not having as much time as Jim or Bill? Is Jim being "favored" over Tom for having more time? The answer is no in all cases. Each pays the same sub, each puts in the same number of hours to achieve the goal... each simply does it across more time due to their real-life circumstances. That's not "unfair". It's called "reality".
If Tom finds it impossible to enjoy the game because they can't progress at the rate that Bill or Jim do, then Tom should perhaps either change his expectations, or consider trying a game where he can progress at the rate he wants, within the time he has to play.
But that's seldom the way it works out, it seems.
The way it seems to work out typically is Tom goes onto game forums crying "foul!" because the game company is punishing him and favoring Bill and declaring that the game needs to allow him to progress faster because, for some reason, he feels he's entitled to keep pace with Bill and Jim, despite the fact he has up to 1/4 the time to play.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike Bingo. Hit the nail on the head and I've made that same argument many times myself. In a P2P MMO, I know that if I want to put in enough time I can get anything in the game anyone else has and pay no more or less than they have to do so.
The common argument against that is that "players are punished because they don't have as much time to play". I mean, seriously.. punished? Yes... people have seriously played the victim card about how "unfair it is that others have more time to play than they do". That's not unfair. That's called life. Unfortunately, we live in a time where instead of rising to meet a challenge, or put forth the effort to achieve a goal, people would prefer the bar be lowered so it's easier to reach, or the goal be made easier so it takes less effort to achieve. This is where the whole "dumbing down" concept stems from... it's not only in video games.
Here's a way of looking at it...
Say a goal takes 40 hours of play time to achieve. Bill has 30 hours per week to play. Jim has 20 hours a week to play. Tom has 10 hours a week.
It'll take Bill a little over 1 week to achieve the goal.
It'll take Jim 2 weeks.
It'll take Tom 4 weeks. They each pay the same monthly sub fee to play the game.
It took them all the same 40 hours of play time, it was simply distributed differently based on how much time each has to play. Is Tom being "punished" for not having as much time as Jim or Bill? Is Jim being "favored" over Tom for having more time? The answer is no in all cases. Each pays the same sub, each puts in the same number of hours to achieve the goal... each simply does it across more time due to their real-life circumstances. That's not "unfair". It's called "reality".
If Tom finds it impossible to enjoy the game because they can't progress at the rate that Bill or Jim do, then Tom should perhaps either change his expectations, or consider trying a game where he can progress at the rate he wants, within the time he has to play.
But that's seldom the way it works out, it seems.
The way it seems to work out typically is Tom goes onto game forums crying "foul!" because the game company is punishing him and favoring Bill and declaring that the game needs to allow him to progress faster because, for some reason, he feels he's entitled to keep pace with Bill and Jim, despite the fact he has up to 1/4 the time to play.
I disagree.
Thats why I favour twitch based games, where I dont need to press the "1" "2" "3" "4" keys for 3 hours a day 5 days a week, only to find out that apparently someone in the game is "better" than me because he can press that keys for 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
while i can admit time being a minor deciding factor, imho games = skill, games =/= repetition ad infinitum of a trivial task that even a down syndrome mastered within the first 5 minutes
Also I strongly diagree with the concept of "task that takes 40 hours of play time to achieve".
If Im good at it, I should be able to do it in 19. And if someone is a freaking moron, it better takes him 60.
Thats why I favour twitch based games, where I dont need to press the "1" "2" "3" "4" keys for 3 hours a day 5 days a week, only to find out that apparently someone in the game is "better" than me because he can press that keys for 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
I was also using the 40 hours thing to illustrate a point of how some people have this entitled mentality that because they have less time to play, they should get a faster/easier ride... It was not used as a literal example.
Also I strongly diagree with the concept of "task that takes 40 hours of play time to achieve".
If Im good at it, I should be able to do it in 19. And if someone is a freaking moron, it better takes him 60.
Again... has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't play them because they are not free. They are almost always designed to deprive you of something you need to enjoy the game. Then when you do pay, they really sock it to you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho progress should never be directly proportional to time. it should be to skill.
I usually follow a simple rule of thumb: if there exists a leveling bot for the game, Im out. I fail to see the reason to play in a game where an automated, brainless program can progress.
I know I went offtopic. To be ontopic, If i consider time a bad substitute for talent, guess you can imagine what I think about money being a substitute for both time and talent
Originally posted by arcdevil Originally posted by WSIMike
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
actually you are wrong, in real life naturally talented people arent forced into dumping excruciatingly long hours doing a totally skippable (for them) training, and they usually get the most rewards.
and those without talent are the ones who have to spend more hours to catch up.
in nowaday's games it happens the inverse, naturally talented people are forced to go thru the same traning wheel stages as the rest, and those with no talent but more time will go ahead of them,instead of struggling to catch them, as if the talent gap didnt even exist.
I enjoyed Runes of Magic enough. Hell, only reason I am not STILL playing it is because after one particular patch, it just wouldn't run right and I gave up. May try it again soon.
Originally posted by elocke . . I find FTPs non immersive, grindy, boring, pretty looking but overall shallow in every aspect. Give me a PTP(most) any day and I'll point out why I like it better than any named FTP. And it usually comes down to immersion and the depth of the gameplay available.
This is generally how I feel. I've always found it very hard to immerse myself in F2P mmos, save for maybe one where I was playing with a large group of friends tearing up the battlefield regardless of grind or whatever.
I must say, though, I'm really enjoying Allods at the moment. It's really one of a kind among F2Ps.
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
Lot of hatred towards F2P mmorpgs sprung from the mmorpg community. But I believe this hatred is really linked to fear. Why do you fear F2P mmorpg games? Why,,,,,,
Pretty simple ,i fear crap.If you see doggie doo doo on the sidewalk do you step in it?or walk around it?
Myself and i would say MANY others do not like to be lied to,there is no such thing as F2P game,if they give us 2gb,i want access to all 2gb of that game ,if not ,then it is not F2P.I have also yet to see any F2P/cash shop game,that does not try and rippoff the customers but trying to get 100+ dollars a month ,from those that might actually want access to the entire game.
90% of these F2P games look like freeware game engines and 30 man staff that spent barely 1 year on them,that is why they can put out 6 games in 3 -5 years.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
actually you are wrong, in real life naturally talented people arent forced into dumping excruciatingly long hours doing a totally skippable (for them) training, and they usually get the most rewards.
and those without talent are the ones that have to spend more hours to catch the former. not viceversa like in nowaday's games
Pretty much true. I have a very high IQ and pick things up very quickly, and so back in school i would sleep through half my classes, not study or anything, and just wake up, take test, go back to napping and get an A every time. Meanwhile other people didnt pick it up as quickly, would have to spend hours and hours studying and doing work for a chance to get an A or B.
Taking that example and putting it into gaming... if everyone had a similar IQ & larning speed, and you studied your ass off for 20 hours to prep for a big test, and someone else studied 5 hours and failed, but then cried that they dont have as much time as you so they should get an automatic bump to their grade to be the same as you, doesnt seem right does it? You'd be like wtf did i work so hard for just to have this jackass come and get it for free. This is pretty much how average P2P games tend to go. Sure people pay the same sub, and have access to all the same things, but people who dont have the time to invest complain that it should be dumbed down and made more casual friendly so that they can play 10 hours a week and still compete with people playing 40 hours a week.
The above is why i pretty much agree that games need to be designed more around skill, rather than how much of a time sink you can turn it into (like so many WoW clones out there). Its also one reason why i love FPS games and Twitch MMORPGs. Playing a FPS (in most cases) isnt about levels and gear and time invested, its all about being faster, smarter, more acurate, playing tactically, etc, not tab targeting and button spamming.
Anyway as far as the F2P vs P2P goes, i dont have a problem with F2Ps and have played many of them over the years. You have 2 options, just like with my example above of school. In school you either have a natural ability to pick things up faster and not invest the time, or you need to invest the time and study to be better. In F2P games you can either spend some money to advance more quickly without having to invest all the time, or if you cant/wont spend the money you instead have to invest the time. The thing that annoys me about the arguments is those who complain about people having an advantage for spending money, and expect to be just as strong for free & without investing any time. Many people dont understand that in most F2Ps, the people spending lots of cash and staying the strongest in the game are also some of the most active players, so theyre not JUST paying to win, theyre investing more time than most other players as well as spending money. Ive done it myself in a few games. And how did i get that money? I WORKED for it, in real life, not sitting around playing a game. If i chose to spend it in a cash shop to make up for time that i dont have to play, thats my decision, and is in no way unfair. I might not have worked IN the game for some of my stuff, but i did WORK for it.
Lot of hatred towards F2P mmorpgs sprung from the mmorpg community. But I believe this hatred is really linked to fear. Why do you fear F2P mmorpg games? Why,,,,,,
Pretty simple ,i fear crap.If you see doggie doo doo on the sidewalk do you step in it?or walk around it?
Myself and i would say MANY others do not like to be lied to,there is no such thing as F2P game,if they give us 2gb,i want access to all 2gb of that game ,if not ,then it is not F2P.I have also yet to see any F2P/cash shop game,that does not try and rippoff the customers but trying to get 100+ dollars a month ,from those that might actually want access to the entire game.
90% of these F2P games look like freeware game engines and 30 man staff that spent barely 1 year on them,that is why they can put out 6 games in 3 -5 years.
Im so sick of seeing this bullshit argument too. What games have you been playing? do you like do a google search for worst possible F2P to play, and then try it? Seriously, list them out, all these hundreds of F2P games that require you to actually purchase ANY content at all. I cant even remember the last time i played one that actually requires content to be bought. (like 95% of the time its cosmetic items, weapon/armor/skill enhancements, xp boosts, loot boosts, stat boosts, etc.... almost never content involved. Closest to that is DDO, and you can get it all, including the content 100% FREE if you actually put a little time into the game, so that doesnt even count as having to pay for content. it is simply one of a couple options.
Sure companies used to require content to be purchased, and how succesful were most of those games? How many people did it scare away? That business model pretty much failed in most cases, which is why most companies dont do it anymore. Theyve found it to be much more profitable to give us all of the content, and ask us to opay for items that make us stronger, level faster, look cooler, etc. Just look at RoM as an example. I know theres lots of people on this site who have played it. Any of you spend anything to unlock actual game content, such as zones, dungeons, etc?
Originally posted by maji Afraid? I don't think people are afraid of Pay2Win games. Many people play them. I personally try one of these every now and then. There are some games with that business model I like, but they ain't MMORPGs. I dislike about Pay2Win MMORPGs that, as the name says, those who pay more beat those who don't. It's like when you play cards with buddies, you win a round, and then someone slaps 100 on the table and suddenly wins instead of you. They're fun, for people who either can't (or don't want to) spend a single cent on a game, or people who are willing to buy their way to the top.
Quoted for truth. I couldn't have said it better. Who wants to play a game where the victor is decided by the size of their wallet? The fundamental basis of competitive games is that they must be fair. It's a simple concept many F2P proponents fail to grasp. If you played a game of basketball and the other team could bribe the ref to put 20 points on their side at the start, no one would play in that league. It's the same thing here, but the F2P whiners either accept and like feeling mighty due to their cash despite their lack of skill, or are simply too ignorant to understand the basics underlying fair competitive play.
All of these are free to play . And all of these ive maxed out toons that the cash shoppers can not touch in PVP ive paid not 1 dime into any of these
the Pay2Win chant is only ever spew buy those that dont have the time to just gun hoe the game and beat the living crap out of it .
you see a few cash shoppers zoom past you and its the pay2win junk all over .
learn the game learn the built system , built a toon that has no need to use cash shop to win . the cash shop may help some get to the top but if its a cash shop ride that took them there , there not gunna stay .
log in to WoW right now and see how many WTB>PL its the same freakin thing players want to bypass the lower lvl content and jump right into the mid/high lvl content . thats the way it is game devas seen this long ago and put in place options to let them do so . skipping 1/2 the games content in no way makes for a win they just have to spend 2 or 3 x longer in the mid /high lvl areas to learn what they missed .
theres 5 mmo's i listed above all 5 games have toons with my screen name want to meet them up close pm me time and game and ill log in to pk you .
if ya cant keep you the only option is to fall behind
Last chaos , cabal , fiesta , jade dynasty ,archlord "befor reboot" All of these are free to play . And all of these ive maxed out toons that the cash shoppers can not touch in PVP ive paid not 1 dime into any of these the Pay2Win chant is only ever spew buy those that dont have the time to just gun hoe the game and beat the living crap out of it . you see a few cash shoppers zoom past you and its the pay2win junk all over . learn the game learn the built system , built a toon that has no need to use cash shop to win . the cash shop may help some get to the top but if its a cash shop ride that took them there , there not gunna stay . log in to WoW right now and see how many WTB>PL its the same freakin thing players want to bypass the lower lvl content and jump right into the mid/high lvl content . thats the way it is game devas seen this long ago and put in place options to let them do so . skipping 1/2 the games content in no way makes for a win they just have to spend 2 or 3 x longer in the mid /high lvl areas to learn what they missed . theres 5 mmo's i listed above all 5 games have toons with my screen name want to meet them up close pm me time and game and ill log in to pk you . if ya cant keep you the only option is to fall behind
Most people don't have the time, nor the will to grind in those games. They are designed as grinds specifically so that people purchase items from their cash shops. As such, the normal progression in those games is with cash shop items in mind.
If you have the dedication to grind through the levels of 5 F2P games, I applaud your tenacity. I personally don't want to grind in a game that isn't that good anyway.
I am not afraid of free to play MMOs. I have just not been happy with anything that I have tried from the free to play games. I prefer Ryzom because I get what I am looking for in these games. I have a nice community, I don't have to pay for items in order to progress through the game, and I find that the graphics and storyline are better than what I have seen from the free to play games.
I quite like and even prefer some f2p mmos over P2p ones . I totally agree with the comment made in this thread that mmos like WOW really are about getting as fast to the endgame content as possible now . Its like anything some are good and some are bad .
I quite like and even prefer some f2p mmos over P2p ones . I totally agree with the comment made in this thread that mmos like WOW really are about getting as fast to the endgame content as possible now . Its like anything some are good and some are bad .
Not totally true about WoW. Yeah you can rush through to the endgame but theres a ton of storyline from the moment you hit create and the time you hit 80.
its all a mind set . befor you even log into a game you should " at least i do" know how much xp is needed to grind out 5 lvls . as soon as your logged in you should know what mob will give you the exp needed for a lvl in under a hour of all out no hold bar grind . if you cant hit atleast lvl 100 with in 100 hours of game play your doing something wrong , this holds true with every mmo i have ever played .
Yes it involves using mountain dew bottles for urinals . and eating refried bean out the can for super while doing you best to keep up the grind 1 handed ,"knowing 1/2 hour off to eats 1/2 a lvl lost times short now adays to get that 5 hours of grind in a day ya gotta wank somethings off your list .
there are no F2P that you HAVE to have the cash shop to boss , there isnt . If you go gun hoe and grind that mmo down . you will have a far better end game built than the cash shop users that follow to the T the forums built for {x} class toon . becouse your toon will be built to lvl with out outside help .
I do not begrudge or belittle the cash shop user there doing what they can to get to the top maybe that dude hasnt the time to grind and learn his toon maybe he has 25 kids and a wife FT job yard that wont stop growing and a mower with a bad wheel . i dont know , you dont know . in a mmo everyone wants to get to the top , if they didnt want to no one would play . there is no one way to the top not in games and not in life
if you have 2 boxers 1 with state of the art gym and 1 trains in his back yard does Mr. state of the art gym have a unfair advantage ? hell no if Mr. back yard has his mind right , he may have to work a bit longer each day but he can do the same thing .
in mmo's and life theres always someone that is gunna have more than you dont hate and spew trash for it , fight untill you have more
Mod can i get a typo fix here again please that last one was soo nice
Lot of hatred towards F2P mmorpgs sprung from the mmorpg community. But I believe this hatred is really linked to fear. Why do you fear F2P mmorpg games? Why,,,,,,
Simple. I don't like shopping. I like to pay, and then forget about money while I play a game.
P2win is all about shopping.
I LOVE shopping, and I still don't like free to play games.
My experience is:
They're too grindy for my taste.
I'm not generally fond (understatement) of the anime art style that the majority of them seem to cling to. (This is actually a big deal to me.)
They're never really FREE if you want to really have a good time. XP pots make the grind a LITTLE more tolerable and, Allods...I'm looking at you....you can't even keep playing without pots to get rid of death debuffs in this game, and it's a lot more than a 10 minute sit down and chat type debuff.
Bag space in most of these games is ignorantly limited, and I'm sorry...I'm not paying 10 to 20 real world dollars for an imaginary bag that I can only use for a month or some stupid limitation like that. THAT, to me, is moronic, and would render the game FAR more costly, when you figure in all of these stupid little things, than 15 bucks a month. So....NOT FREE.
I could go on and on. There just simply is nothing much that I personally find to be a redeeming quality to MOST free to play games. Nada. Zilch. Zip.
one main issue i have with f2p is the lack of gold spammer control.cant they put the chat text on a 60 second cooldown to lower spam of gold .athene has been doing this for years in stream and it doesnt amper game at all since group and raid are the same its just the other chat that get the 60 s cooldown per person texting
aside from that i like game like allods,pirate galaxy,aika,and hopefully forsken world might have a 60 second cooldown on regular chat that would be nice!
But look at Guild Wars. they are balanced. So your arguement is flawed here buddy
Guild Wars is not an MMO. The devs have stated this themselves, and players still continue to bring the game into discussions.
GW has all the qualities of an mmo why isn't it an MMO? Explain that.
We dont have to, because they, the people who made it, have stated it isnt a MMO, so who is better qualified to know what genre their product sits in, however the same arguement barely applies to Cryptic so on second thoughts your question may stand.
theres NOTHING wrong with f2p mmorpgs, item mall pay to win?
You can buy gold in any mmorpg and gain an unfair advantage over paying customers ,what is the difference? Theres a reason theres gold shops opening up like cheap mom and pop diner shops everywhere. PEOPLE BUY GOLD. People are lazy, if being max level and having uber gear is percieved as value PEOPLE WILL PAY REAL MONEY FOR IT.
If everyone thought spending real money on virtual goods was stupid and pointless, mmorpgs wouldnt be plauged with farmers nowadays.
I wont lie, iv done alot of RMT in my time, in many different games. Thing is, most mmorpg game companies dont go after the people who buy the gold, they go after the farmers. The farmers just provide a service to a DEMAND. Out of all the games i have done RMT stuff in, only game I EVER got in trouble for was pirates of the burning sea, and they suspended my alt account for 3 days, when all the gold was on my main. LAWL.
Then theres games like Eve online, which actively ban users who BUY MONEY (CCP is smart, they arent retards like most american game companies), but they provide an alternative, in eve, you can buy game time codes for real life money, and sell to players for ingame money. Not only does it give people who are into RMT a legal avenue, but CCP gets a chuck of the RMT revenue stream as well! And if you grind alot of money in eve you can play for free .
So are item mall games bad? NO, if their prices are reasonable HELL NO.
Comments
1. They're never really free (if you want to have a good character)
2. They're always poorly developed compared to P2P games
3. Having to maintain subs is a terrific incentive for Devs in P2P to keep creating new content and improving existing content
4. Not having to maintain subs is terrific incentive for Devs for F2P games to primarily focus on creating new micro-transactions and reasons to buy micro-transactions instead of content
5. Usually less of a Dev staff meaning cheating and duping goes unpunished in F2P
5. I've never played a F2P that I actually found fun.
But yeah, besides those points F2P's are great!
Bingo. Hit the nail on the head and I've made that same argument many times myself.
In a P2P MMO, I know that if I want to put in enough time I can get anything in the game anyone else has and pay no more or less than they have to do so.
The common argument against that is that "players are punished because they don't have as much time to play". I mean, seriously.. punished? Yes... people have seriously played the victim card about how "unfair it is that others have more time to play than they do". That's not unfair. That's called life. Unfortunately, we live in a time where instead of rising to meet a challenge, or put forth the effort to achieve a goal, people would prefer the bar be lowered so it's easier to reach, or the goal be made easier so it takes less effort to achieve. This is where the whole "dumbing down" concept stems from... it's not only in video games.
Here's a way of looking at it...
Say a goal takes 40 hours of play time to achieve. Bill has 30 hours per week to play. Jim has 20 hours a week to play. Tom has 10 hours a week.
It'll take Bill a little over 1 week to achieve the goal.
It'll take Jim 2 weeks.
It'll take Tom 4 weeks.
They each pay the same monthly sub fee to play the game.
It took them all the same 40 hours of play time, it was simply distributed differently based on how much time each has to play. Is Tom being "punished" for not having as much time as Jim or Bill? Is Jim being "favored" over Tom for having more time? The answer is no in all cases. Each pays the same sub, each puts in the same number of hours to achieve the goal... each simply does it across more time due to their real-life circumstances. That's not "unfair". It's called "reality".
If Tom finds it impossible to enjoy the game because they can't progress at the rate that Bill or Jim do, then Tom should perhaps either change his expectations, or consider trying a game where he can progress at the rate he wants, within the time he has to play.
But that's seldom the way it works out, it seems.
The way it seems to work out typically is Tom goes onto game forums crying "foul!" because the game company is punishing him and favoring Bill and declaring that the game needs to allow him to progress faster because, for some reason, he feels he's entitled to keep pace with Bill and Jim, despite the fact he has up to 1/4 the time to play.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I disagree.
Thats why I favour twitch based games, where I dont need to press the "1" "2" "3" "4" keys for 3 hours a day 5 days a week, only to find out that apparently someone in the game is "better" than me because he can press that keys for 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
while i can admit time being a minor deciding factor, imho games = skill, games =/= repetition ad infinitum of a trivial task that even a down syndrome mastered within the first 5 minutes
Also I strongly diagree with the concept of "task that takes 40 hours of play time to achieve".
If Im good at it, I should be able to do it in 19. And if someone is a freaking moron, it better takes him 60.
I disagree.
Thats why I favour twitch based games, where I dont need to press the "1" "2" "3" "4" keys for 3 hours a day 5 days a week, only to find out that apparently someone in the game is "better" than me because he can press that keys for 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I'm not discussing twitch versus button pushing. I'm discussing the concept some people have that it's "unfair" that someone else has more time than them to play a game and will make more progress.
I was also using the 40 hours thing to illustrate a point of how some people have this entitled mentality that because they have less time to play, they should get a faster/easier ride... It was not used as a literal example.
Also I strongly diagree with the concept of "task that takes 40 hours of play time to achieve".
If Im good at it, I should be able to do it in 19. And if someone is a freaking moron, it better takes him 60.
Again... has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't play them because they are not free. They are almost always designed to deprive you of something you need to enjoy the game. Then when you do pay, they really sock it to you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho progress should never be directly proportional to time. it should be to skill.
I usually follow a simple rule of thumb: if there exists a leveling bot for the game, Im out. I fail to see the reason to play in a game where an automated, brainless program can progress.
I know I went offtopic. To be ontopic, If i consider time a bad substitute for talent, guess you can imagine what I think about money being a substitute for both time and talent
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
actually you are wrong, in real life naturally talented people arent forced into dumping excruciatingly long hours doing a totally skippable (for them) training, and they usually get the most rewards.
and those without talent are the ones who have to spend more hours to catch up.
in nowaday's games it happens the inverse, naturally talented people are forced to go thru the same traning wheel stages as the rest, and those with no talent but more time will go ahead of them,instead of struggling to catch them, as if the talent gap didnt even exist.
I enjoyed Runes of Magic enough. Hell, only reason I am not STILL playing it is because after one particular patch, it just wouldn't run right and I gave up. May try it again soon.
This is generally how I feel. I've always found it very hard to immerse myself in F2P mmos, save for maybe one where I was playing with a large group of friends tearing up the battlefield regardless of grind or whatever.
I must say, though, I'm really enjoying Allods at the moment. It's really one of a kind among F2Ps.
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
Pretty simple ,i fear crap.If you see doggie doo doo on the sidewalk do you step in it?or walk around it?
Myself and i would say MANY others do not like to be lied to,there is no such thing as F2P game,if they give us 2gb,i want access to all 2gb of that game ,if not ,then it is not F2P.I have also yet to see any F2P/cash shop game,that does not try and rippoff the customers but trying to get 100+ dollars a month ,from those that might actually want access to the entire game.
90% of these F2P games look like freeware game engines and 30 man staff that spent barely 1 year on them,that is why they can put out 6 games in 3 -5 years.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And Im afraid I didnt make myself clear, that is exactly what Im disagreeing with, it IS unfair that someone who has more time to play a game will make more progress. imho time should never be directly proportional to progress. skill should.
How is that unfair? That is how life is.. the more time you put in something, the better chances you will get more rewards from it
Games that try to please everyone in that way generally tend to end up crappy.
actually you are wrong, in real life naturally talented people arent forced into dumping excruciatingly long hours doing a totally skippable (for them) training, and they usually get the most rewards.
and those without talent are the ones that have to spend more hours to catch the former. not viceversa like in nowaday's games
Pretty much true. I have a very high IQ and pick things up very quickly, and so back in school i would sleep through half my classes, not study or anything, and just wake up, take test, go back to napping and get an A every time. Meanwhile other people didnt pick it up as quickly, would have to spend hours and hours studying and doing work for a chance to get an A or B.
Taking that example and putting it into gaming... if everyone had a similar IQ & larning speed, and you studied your ass off for 20 hours to prep for a big test, and someone else studied 5 hours and failed, but then cried that they dont have as much time as you so they should get an automatic bump to their grade to be the same as you, doesnt seem right does it? You'd be like wtf did i work so hard for just to have this jackass come and get it for free. This is pretty much how average P2P games tend to go. Sure people pay the same sub, and have access to all the same things, but people who dont have the time to invest complain that it should be dumbed down and made more casual friendly so that they can play 10 hours a week and still compete with people playing 40 hours a week.
The above is why i pretty much agree that games need to be designed more around skill, rather than how much of a time sink you can turn it into (like so many WoW clones out there). Its also one reason why i love FPS games and Twitch MMORPGs. Playing a FPS (in most cases) isnt about levels and gear and time invested, its all about being faster, smarter, more acurate, playing tactically, etc, not tab targeting and button spamming.
Anyway as far as the F2P vs P2P goes, i dont have a problem with F2Ps and have played many of them over the years. You have 2 options, just like with my example above of school. In school you either have a natural ability to pick things up faster and not invest the time, or you need to invest the time and study to be better. In F2P games you can either spend some money to advance more quickly without having to invest all the time, or if you cant/wont spend the money you instead have to invest the time. The thing that annoys me about the arguments is those who complain about people having an advantage for spending money, and expect to be just as strong for free & without investing any time. Many people dont understand that in most F2Ps, the people spending lots of cash and staying the strongest in the game are also some of the most active players, so theyre not JUST paying to win, theyre investing more time than most other players as well as spending money. Ive done it myself in a few games. And how did i get that money? I WORKED for it, in real life, not sitting around playing a game. If i chose to spend it in a cash shop to make up for time that i dont have to play, thats my decision, and is in no way unfair. I might not have worked IN the game for some of my stuff, but i did WORK for it.
Pretty simple ,i fear crap.If you see doggie doo doo on the sidewalk do you step in it?or walk around it?
Myself and i would say MANY others do not like to be lied to,there is no such thing as F2P game,if they give us 2gb,i want access to all 2gb of that game ,if not ,then it is not F2P.I have also yet to see any F2P/cash shop game,that does not try and rippoff the customers but trying to get 100+ dollars a month ,from those that might actually want access to the entire game.
90% of these F2P games look like freeware game engines and 30 man staff that spent barely 1 year on them,that is why they can put out 6 games in 3 -5 years.
Im so sick of seeing this bullshit argument too. What games have you been playing? do you like do a google search for worst possible F2P to play, and then try it? Seriously, list them out, all these hundreds of F2P games that require you to actually purchase ANY content at all. I cant even remember the last time i played one that actually requires content to be bought. (like 95% of the time its cosmetic items, weapon/armor/skill enhancements, xp boosts, loot boosts, stat boosts, etc.... almost never content involved. Closest to that is DDO, and you can get it all, including the content 100% FREE if you actually put a little time into the game, so that doesnt even count as having to pay for content. it is simply one of a couple options.
Sure companies used to require content to be purchased, and how succesful were most of those games? How many people did it scare away? That business model pretty much failed in most cases, which is why most companies dont do it anymore. Theyve found it to be much more profitable to give us all of the content, and ask us to opay for items that make us stronger, level faster, look cooler, etc. Just look at RoM as an example. I know theres lots of people on this site who have played it. Any of you spend anything to unlock actual game content, such as zones, dungeons, etc?
Quoted for truth. I couldn't have said it better. Who wants to play a game where the victor is decided by the size of their wallet? The fundamental basis of competitive games is that they must be fair. It's a simple concept many F2P proponents fail to grasp. If you played a game of basketball and the other team could bribe the ref to put 20 points on their side at the start, no one would play in that league. It's the same thing here, but the F2P whiners either accept and like feeling mighty due to their cash despite their lack of skill, or are simply too ignorant to understand the basics underlying fair competitive play.
Last chaos , cabal , fiesta , jade dynasty ,archlord "befor reboot"
All of these are free to play . And all of these ive maxed out toons that the cash shoppers can not touch in PVP ive paid not 1 dime into any of these
the Pay2Win chant is only ever spew buy those that dont have the time to just gun hoe the game and beat the living crap out of it .
you see a few cash shoppers zoom past you and its the pay2win junk all over .
learn the game learn the built system , built a toon that has no need to use cash shop to win . the cash shop may help some get to the top but if its a cash shop ride that took them there , there not gunna stay .
log in to WoW right now and see how many WTB>PL its the same freakin thing players want to bypass the lower lvl content and jump right into the mid/high lvl content . thats the way it is game devas seen this long ago and put in place options to let them do so . skipping 1/2 the games content in no way makes for a win they just have to spend 2 or 3 x longer in the mid /high lvl areas to learn what they missed .
theres 5 mmo's i listed above all 5 games have toons with my screen name want to meet them up close pm me time and game and ill log in to pk you .
if ya cant keep you the only option is to fall behind
Most people don't have the time, nor the will to grind in those games. They are designed as grinds specifically so that people purchase items from their cash shops. As such, the normal progression in those games is with cash shop items in mind.
If you have the dedication to grind through the levels of 5 F2P games, I applaud your tenacity. I personally don't want to grind in a game that isn't that good anyway.
I am not afraid of free to play MMOs. I have just not been happy with anything that I have tried from the free to play games. I prefer Ryzom because I get what I am looking for in these games. I have a nice community, I don't have to pay for items in order to progress through the game, and I find that the graphics and storyline are better than what I have seen from the free to play games.
www.ryzom.com
I quite like and even prefer some f2p mmos over P2p ones . I totally agree with the comment made in this thread that mmos like WOW really are about getting as fast to the endgame content as possible now . Its like anything some are good and some are bad .
Not totally true about WoW. Yeah you can rush through to the endgame but theres a ton of storyline from the moment you hit create and the time you hit 80.
its all a mind set . befor you even log into a game you should " at least i do" know how much xp is needed to grind out 5 lvls . as soon as your logged in you should know what mob will give you the exp needed for a lvl in under a hour of all out no hold bar grind . if you cant hit atleast lvl 100 with in 100 hours of game play your doing something wrong , this holds true with every mmo i have ever played .
Yes it involves using mountain dew bottles for urinals . and eating refried bean out the can for super while doing you best to keep up the grind 1 handed ,"knowing 1/2 hour off to eats 1/2 a lvl lost times short now adays to get that 5 hours of grind in a day ya gotta wank somethings off your list .
there are no F2P that you HAVE to have the cash shop to boss , there isnt . If you go gun hoe and grind that mmo down . you will have a far better end game built than the cash shop users that follow to the T the forums built for {x} class toon . becouse your toon will be built to lvl with out outside help .
I do not begrudge or belittle the cash shop user there doing what they can to get to the top maybe that dude hasnt the time to grind and learn his toon maybe he has 25 kids and a wife FT job yard that wont stop growing and a mower with a bad wheel . i dont know , you dont know . in a mmo everyone wants to get to the top , if they didnt want to no one would play . there is no one way to the top not in games and not in life
if you have 2 boxers 1 with state of the art gym and 1 trains in his back yard does Mr. state of the art gym have a unfair advantage ? hell no if Mr. back yard has his mind right , he may have to work a bit longer each day but he can do the same thing .
in mmo's and life theres always someone that is gunna have more than you dont hate and spew trash for it , fight untill you have more
Mod can i get a typo fix here again please that last one was soo nice
thanks
Simple. I don't like shopping. I like to pay, and then forget about money while I play a game.
P2win is all about shopping.
I LOVE shopping, and I still don't like free to play games.
My experience is:
They're too grindy for my taste.
I'm not generally fond (understatement) of the anime art style that the majority of them seem to cling to. (This is actually a big deal to me.)
They're never really FREE if you want to really have a good time. XP pots make the grind a LITTLE more tolerable and, Allods...I'm looking at you....you can't even keep playing without pots to get rid of death debuffs in this game, and it's a lot more than a 10 minute sit down and chat type debuff.
Bag space in most of these games is ignorantly limited, and I'm sorry...I'm not paying 10 to 20 real world dollars for an imaginary bag that I can only use for a month or some stupid limitation like that. THAT, to me, is moronic, and would render the game FAR more costly, when you figure in all of these stupid little things, than 15 bucks a month. So....NOT FREE.
I could go on and on. There just simply is nothing much that I personally find to be a redeeming quality to MOST free to play games. Nada. Zilch. Zip.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
one main issue i have with f2p is the lack of gold spammer control.cant they put the chat text on a 60 second cooldown to lower spam of gold .athene has been doing this for years in stream and it doesnt amper game at all since group and raid are the same its just the other chat that get the 60 s cooldown per person texting
aside from that i like game like allods,pirate galaxy,aika,and hopefully forsken world might have a 60 second cooldown on regular chat that would be nice!
Guild Wars is not an MMO. The devs have stated this themselves, and players still continue to bring the game into discussions.
GW has all the qualities of an mmo why isn't it an MMO? Explain that.
Guild Wars is not an MMO. The devs have stated this themselves, and players still continue to bring the game into discussions.
GW has all the qualities of an mmo why isn't it an MMO? Explain that.
We dont have to, because they, the people who made it, have stated it isnt a MMO, so who is better qualified to know what genre their product sits in, however the same arguement barely applies to Cryptic so on second thoughts your question may stand.
theres NOTHING wrong with f2p mmorpgs, item mall pay to win?
You can buy gold in any mmorpg and gain an unfair advantage over paying customers ,what is the difference? Theres a reason theres gold shops opening up like cheap mom and pop diner shops everywhere. PEOPLE BUY GOLD. People are lazy, if being max level and having uber gear is percieved as value PEOPLE WILL PAY REAL MONEY FOR IT.
If everyone thought spending real money on virtual goods was stupid and pointless, mmorpgs wouldnt be plauged with farmers nowadays.
I wont lie, iv done alot of RMT in my time, in many different games. Thing is, most mmorpg game companies dont go after the people who buy the gold, they go after the farmers. The farmers just provide a service to a DEMAND. Out of all the games i have done RMT stuff in, only game I EVER got in trouble for was pirates of the burning sea, and they suspended my alt account for 3 days, when all the gold was on my main. LAWL.
Then theres games like Eve online, which actively ban users who BUY MONEY (CCP is smart, they arent retards like most american game companies), but they provide an alternative, in eve, you can buy game time codes for real life money, and sell to players for ingame money. Not only does it give people who are into RMT a legal avenue, but CCP gets a chuck of the RMT revenue stream as well! And if you grind alot of money in eve you can play for free .
So are item mall games bad? NO, if their prices are reasonable HELL NO.