I have been dealing with F2P games for a while now. It has been great so far. *Free* is always the right price. When i cannot progress unless i have to pay .. I switch games. There are enough games out there to do that.
have fun. maybe after the 15th time you switch game, you'll realize that the crystal wall of progression (where the game kindly hints you that if you dont pay more than your mortgage you will never be reaching anywhere) is always there....see a pattern?
thats what F2P gamers do, hop from game to game to game to game, most of them dont even last weeks before giving up, and try 50 games a year without finding any decent.
I wouldnt start playing a low quality, pathetic, rushed, shoestring budget generic clone, only to be forced to give up on it after 2 months. 2 wasted months better spent is a good P2P where the game becomes MORE enjoyable as you level, instead of less...
People should start considering that when they play a F2P games, the cash shop has had A LOT more though and brainpower put than the game itself.
They are not tricking anyone and getting a game for free, they are being used and abused, they gave the developers and the high spenders their time, become gatherers, crafters, activate the economy, populate the world so it doesnt feel empty and cheapens the high spenders experience, become cannon fodder to party, and finally....become the high spenders's bitches when it comes to competing.
for free.
freeloaders are being punching bags and arent getting any reward from it, when they start seeing there's something fun ahead other than grinding massively for everything, or get half close to an enjoyable endgame, the game tells them "THIS IS NOT FOR YOU. PAY OR WE WILL FRUSTRATE YOU UNTIL YOU GTFO"
Yeah I can't understand why anyone would want to pay more than $15 a month on their online game.
I read on the forum of on one of these free to play games (can't remember exactly which game) some guy had been drinking and in his intoxicated state logged on to the game and spent well over $200 on the cash shop.
And here he was on the forum desperately trying to get his money back but they just told him that it's not refundable.
haha thats kind of funny, and fully deserved.
Ex. myth of soma, legend of mir, mu online and eudemons online player.
Current game : Runescape (until pc build is complete)
The funny thing is that you actually believe all this... "Nonpayers are there to make the game seem fuller for the actual payers", "freeloaders are punching bags". Am I really supposed to feel sorry for your plight? What a joke.
newsflash: saying "no it isnt" without adding an argument or example of your own doesnt make you a great debater.
but let me guess, you'll come here and use DDO as example..I see, i see, reading the F2P kids in this board one would believe there is just one single F2P game out there, instead of hundreds...
Not quite. What I'm *trying* to say is that you are most likely to call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam you into buying it.
thats not really a valid metaphor for a F2P game.
a valid one would go as follows:
I would call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam me into buying it only if she were telling me I'd get a whole lunch of apple sausages, to then give me a bite of a small one for free and proceed on trying to charge me the rest of the meal at triple the normal price
and to be really valid , the apple sausages should be well past its sell-by date
F2P is a terrible model by which to offer a gaming service. There is a lot of merit in the idea of subscribing to a service, receiving the service for that fee and not be expected to pay any more. There is also merit in paying a one time fee for a game like in the example of Guild wars. There is no merit in the "free to play" model because at its core it intends to be deceitful. Any model that requires financial top-ops just to progress within the content is no different that online poker or other gambling. Further, any model that makes a total required financial contribution unclear is a scam. Of couse I come from a mmo era of simpler times when there werent even %10 of you playing these games and we paid or $10 for a UO account. F2P exists for the same reason dollar rama stores and cheap boxed generic jello exist......because people buy into it. I don't mean to personally offend anyone but the F2p model is clearly to the advantage of any publisher rather than the gamer and therefore does nothing constructive to a already crap-ridden and innovatively impotent creative environment.
I have to agree with all of your points.
Kinda harsh.... but I agree with most of what you say. There is no such thing as Free To Play. You will pay eventualy with either your wallet, game quality, advertisements, or rediculous load times.
The concept of an item mall is truly rediculous to me. If you can't beat em, go to the item mall and buy something to beat em with. It's the same thing as paying month to month. You still pay. And those that don't pay are making an indipendant decission to SUCK at whatever game they are playing.
I'm all for smaller cheaper games. GO INDIE!!!!!! FTP allows people who can't pay for a game to play modern MMO's. Thats the only reason that validates them at all. Those who don't have cash can play, as long as they are ok with the wealthy whippin their arse on a daily basis.
Because what really needed was this thread again...
Look, man, there are plenty of free to play games out there that you needn't buy anything to succeed at or complete anything.
I recently listed in another thread on this exact topic the model primarily used by Aeria Games, specifically for Grand Fantasia in which there is not one item in the shop that is necessary.
There are a few things that might assist you in crafting, however there are in game items that do the same thing. Everything is fluff. I admit there are a few that have game making or breaking items only in the shops, but they aren't the majority. Which to me is important anyway, variety makes the industry, companies and genre stronger. Just because you don't like one sub-group of the whole is no reason another can't.
DDO is a good example of understandable, translatable free to play with item shop.
In tabletop D&D if I want to play as a Dark Elf I have to go out and buy a sourcebook.
If I want a different environment and setting to be available to me and my group I have to buy a sourcebook.
So in DDO having to purchase the use of Dark Elves(they can also be easily earned in game) or have a couple of new modules, I have to pay a fee. Fair enough, keeps the lights on and the game from being useless on the client side. Win for the devs, they keep working. Win for me, I keep having servers to play on and only have to spend money if I want to, when I want to.
A slightly less rpg and more 3rd person shooter mmo would be PlayNC's Exteel. The only advantage to the item mall is getting the high end equipment quicker, rather than earning it over the course of gaming. So twinks get mecha they don't know how to use properly and get aced regularly by those of us fighting our way to an equivalent suit which, once earned will absolutely demolish theirs because we've got the experience of winning while outgunned.
The other advantage to that particular item shop is the better looking(personally) mecha are the ones bought. But stat wise they stack 1/1 against the equivalent non item shop mecha.
You see? Diversity, additional customization and such is more typical than top end in many of these games.
The funny thing is that you actually believe all this... "Nonpayers are there to make the game seem fuller for the actual payers", "freeloaders are punching bags". Am I really supposed to feel sorry for your plight? What a joke.
newsflash: saying "no it isnt" without adding an argument or example of your own doesnt make you a great debater.
but let me guess, you'll come here and use DDO as example..I see, i see, reading the F2P kids in this board one would believe there is just one single F2P game out there, instead of hundreds...
Not quite. What I'm *trying* to say is that you are most likely to call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam you into buying it.
thats not really a valid metaphor for a F2P game.
a valid one would go as follows:
I would call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam me into buying it only if she were telling me I'd get a whole lunch of apple sausages, to then give me a bite of a small one for free and proceed on trying to charge me the rest of the meal at triple the normal price
and to be really valid , the apple sausages should be well past its sell-by date
Poor metaphor. In the vast majority of free to play games, you get access to all gameplay content.
Face it, Free to play is not a scam. You don't have to like it, thats fine, but saying it is a scam is just silly.
I think its funny that a game that allows you to play for free as much as you want is considered a scam, but a game which first charges you 50 bucks before you can play it is considered the decent way.
Originally posted by arcdevil thats not really a valid metaphore for a F2P game. let me fix it I would call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam me into buying it only if she were telling me I'd get a whole lunch of apple sausages, to then give me a bite of a small one for free and proceed on trying to charge me the rest of the meal at triple the normal price, and then noticed they were well past its sell-by date
Wrong again. She'd show you a lunch, but the best parts are behind glass, and they charge by the ounce. I don't remember any f2p game "trying to charge me" for anything. I would just take the free sides, get what I wanted from it, and go on my way to something better.
We both agree that most f2p games are simply subpar, and make up for a backup "I'm *that* bored" MMO. That means "why should I care about being competitive?". If someone wants to spend money on it, and treat it like their main in order to get more out of it - more power to them. There has not been an f2p MMO I wouldn't dump money on because I hate the tactics behind it - it's because the games are "meh" to begin with. ~and who cares if a meh-game is free, but you'll never out-do anyone plowing money in? If it was that good I'd probably be paying something.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
F2P is a terrible model by which to offer a gaming service. There is a lot of merit in the idea of subscribing to a service, receiving the service for that fee and not be expected to pay any more. There is also merit in paying a one time fee for a game like in the example of Guild wars. There is no merit in the "free to play" model because at its core it intends to be deceitful. Any model that requires financial top-ops just to progress within the content is no different that online poker or other gambling. Further, any model that makes a total required financial contribution unclear is a scam. Of couse I come from a mmo era of simpler times when there werent even %10 of you playing these games and we paid or $10 for a UO account. F2P exists for the same reason dollar rama stores and cheap boxed generic jello exist......because people buy into it. I don't mean to personally offend anyone but the F2p model is clearly to the advantage of any publisher rather than the gamer and therefore does nothing constructive to a already crap-ridden and innovatively impotent creative environment.
I believe that this is a very closed minded opinion of the model. You are looking at this obvious as a "hardcore" player, which is not the position of every mmo player. I look at things a little differently; I to have been playing mmo's since most people on the site where in elementry school. Due to that fact, I now have a very involved job, a wife and a 3 year old child. Now that my life has changed, I no longer have the time to be a "hardcore" player. While I do see your perspective that you would rather pay the $15 per month and get all content entitled for that fee, for a guy like me, that model is a scam. I now get to play roughly an hour or so every other night, and sometimes on the weekend, so you can see how I would have an issue paying $15 a month for something I may only play for 10 hours a month. But this is what I have been doing due to the lack of good quality free to play games. Now, with the free to play, even with buying items, I end up spending roughly $6 a month to play. This is far better suited to my playstyle then the $15 a month plan.
All I'm saying here is that what you depict as a "scam" is a savior to some... who consider it a scam to pay $15 a month reguardless of how much or little they play. If you have a lot of time to play, then obviously the $15 a month plan is very good; however, please try to understand that we all can't play games for 40 hours a week.
F2P is a terrible model by which to offer a gaming service. There is a lot of merit in the idea of subscribing to a service, receiving the service for that fee and not be expected to pay any more. There is also merit in paying a one time fee for a game like in the example of Guild wars. There is no merit in the "free to play" model because at its core it intends to be deceitful. Any model that requires financial top-ops just to progress within the content is no different that online poker or other gambling. Further, any model that makes a total required financial contribution unclear is a scam. Of couse I come from a mmo era of simpler times when there werent even %10 of you playing these games and we paid or $10 for a UO account. F2P exists for the same reason dollar rama stores and cheap boxed generic jello exist......because people buy into it. I don't mean to personally offend anyone but the F2p model is clearly to the advantage of any publisher rather than the gamer and therefore does nothing constructive to a already crap-ridden and innovatively impotent creative environment.
I believe that this is a very closed minded opinion of the model. You are looking at this obvious as a "hardcore" player, which is not the position of every mmo player. I look at things a little differently; I to have been playing mmo's since most people on the site where in elementry school. Due to that fact, I now have a very involved job, a wife and a 3 year old child. Now that my life has changed, I no longer have the time to be a "hardcore" player. While I do see your perspective that you would rather pay the $15 per month and get all content entitled for that fee, for a guy like me, that model is a scam. I now get to play roughly an hour or so every other night, and sometimes on the weekend, so you can see how I would have an issue paying $15 a month for something I may only play for 10 hours a month. But this is what I have been doing due to the lack of good quality free to play games. Now, with the free to play, even with buying items, I end up spending roughly $6 a month to play. This is far better suited to my playstyle then the $15 a month plan.
All I'm saying here is that what you depict as a "scam" is a savior to some... who consider it a scam to pay $15 a month reguardless of how much or little they play. If you have a lot of time to play, then obviously the $15 a month plan is very good; however, please try to understand that we all can't play games for 40 hours a week.
Thanks,
Praetalus, I think you and I are probably same age range and likely in similar situation.
Time is a major factor for me. Married(to another gamer yay!), two children, work, school, doctors, eating, sleeping, shopping, telephones, emails, vehicle and home maintenance, it's enough to drive you mad. Then you work out your budget and try to factor in 15 bucks for a very minute percentage of your time?
I didn't start out as early as you maybe, I'm EQ2 and SWG alum(my wife was EQ1 launch and introduced me to mmo gaming, I've played CoH/CoV, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Have lifetime sub on pre-ordered LotRO, DDO, and played Pirates of the Carribean with my youngest and my wife.
I currently keep ducking back into LotRO which paid itself off a year ago, DDO, and occasionally Exteel/PotC/Perfect World.
Once in a great while I duck into Guild Wars.
Not having to pay for anything is a major boon to those of us who haven't got the time, and yes, those of us who aren't even Middle Class anymore.
Gaming is my final luxury, free to play allows me to have that.
I think F2P games with cash shops are great! If you are an epeen flexing, trash talking, power gamer that absolutely has to be #1, in a cash shop game you get to pay for that privilege. For a mostly casual gamer like myself these games really are free.
It's been said before "A fool and his money are soon parted" if you spent your rent check on a game, or lotto tickets, or in Vegas, that sounds pretty foolish to me.
DDO's Hybrid paying model is the way most F2P's should go instead they want to sell you Items that are required to enjoy the game....
ALLODS online is a good example and is Tanking faster than anything...before the cash shop it was packed now I hear it's dead in there and in GameChat all there talking about is the cash shop really sad. In the US forums they are shutting down threads just for bringing up those issues...good ole Russians.
IMO Guild Wars had the perfect model except for their instancing which will be addressed in Part 2 all these other Pay2Win companies are going to FAIL
Well, if you ask me I think Free-To-Play is commonly misunderstood by people, thus why some people think it's a scam. There is a misconception about the whole system.
Free-To-Play: Play now, pay later. No subscription fee to start, but the idea is to get you to pay for it some time down the road. It's not a scam, that's how it's always been.
Well, if you ask me I think Free-To-Play is commonly misunderstood by people, thus why some people think it's a scam. There is a misconception about the whole system. Free-To-Play: Play now, pay later. No subscription fee to start, but the idea is to get you to pay for it some time down the road. It's not a scam, that's how it's always been.
It is more like "Play now, MAY pay later". Many players never get to the "pay later" stage and enjoy their experiences for free.
Overall. I think its anti-ethical, imoral and soon be illegal. Its not different than fraud. What they do is essentially printing money. It destroy the essence of the genre: where character progress derive from time and effort spent on the game, as much as the player skill. Selling in-game advantages destroy all genres of gaming and we should not allow it. Its much worse than cassinos. The developers/publishers technological hegemony is being used to take advantage of millions of players. It doesnt seem much when they take one dollar from each player, out of thin air, and the individualism of our culture doesnt allow us to see through the massified/collective problems. Most players have no idea of the scope of the problem. We are talking about billions of dollars that were scammed from players, removed from the flow of the market. Evasion of taxes plus money laundry scheme. Lack of regulations in this yet new segment of the market. Lack of culture from the community, players dont seek their rights, they accept their fate blindly.
This was meant to be a joke right. I hope you aren't serious. Its a GAME.
DDO's Hybrid paying model is the way most F2P's should go instead they want to sell you Items that are required to enjoy the game....
ALLODS online is a good example and is Tanking faster than anything...before the cash shop it was packed now I hear it's dead in there and in GameChat all there talking about is the cash shop really sad. In the US forums they are shutting down threads just for bringing up those issues...good ole Russians. IMO Guild Wars had the perfect model except for their instancing which will be addressed in Part 2 all these other Pay2Win companies are going to FAIL
IMO Guild Wars sucked. I hated it. That's the problem, we all have opinions on what will work, but you seem to know what will fail. I would like to see your data on Allods tanking faster then "anything"; as I currently play Allods and it is still full to the brim with players. The only people leaving are the "hardcore" Warcraft crowd who somehow find time to play these games for 40 hours a week. The more normal and casual gamers are still playing Allods.
Personally I like DDO's hybrid system and we are attempting to implement something similar, albeit on a smaller scale and necessarily adapted, into DarkSpace.
Now, speaking as a developer on this issue:
I would love to be able to provide a game for free, relying totally on altruism and never charging anyone a cent for the experience. Sadly this is not possible. Server running costs have to be paid for somehow, and I am certainly not in a position to be able to finance this out of my own pocket. Instead, I work on the aforementioned project for free, knowing that all the of money we get will go back into the continued running and maintenance of the project. In fact, the entire development team work on this basis, and the entire community is well aware of this fact.
Are you still going to call those players 'dupes' because they choose to support us because they actually enjoy playing our game? Are you going to call the players who have purposefully created alternate accounts in order to give us more money 'dupes' as well? It is there free choice to do so, and we have never encouraged this.
What would be dumb is if we did not give the players the means of helping us that they are clearly demanding. As subscription based, we were very limited in our options on this front, but going as free-to-play means we have a much wider array of options at our disposal, and we will have a much better system for rewarding those people who have chosen to give us thier support.
This said, there will alsoways be people who see such a system as an opportunity to get ahead in the game, which is why any such system needs to be carefully designed and implemented to try and keep it fair for those who are not able to pay, or simply do not want to. These players do give the world you have created that extra dimension of life, and I think this is very important to those small indy development studios that do not have the finances or resources to implement a competitive 'AI' system.
I should probably stop there. I am starting to ramble.
Personally I like DDO's hybrid system and we are attempting to implement something similar, albeit on a smaller scale and necessarily adapted, into DarkSpace. Now, speaking as a developer on this issue: I would love to be able to provide a game for free, relying totally on altruism and never charging anyone a cent for the experience. Sadly this is not possible. Server running costs have to be paid for somehow, and I am certainly not in a position to be able to finance this out of my own pocket. Instead, I work on the aforementioned project for free, knowing that all the of money we get will go back into the continued running and maintenance of the project. In fact, the entire development team work on this basis, and the entire community is well aware of this fact. Are you still going to call those players 'dupes' because they choose to support us because they actually enjoy playing our game? Are you going to call the players who have purposefully created alternate accounts in order to give us more money 'dupes' as well? It is there free choice to do so, and we have never encouraged this. What would be dumb is if we did not give the players the means of helping us that they are clearly demanding. As subscription based, we were very limited in our options on this front, but going as free-to-play means we have a much wider array of options at our disposal, and we will have a much better system for rewarding those people who have chosen to give us thier support. This said, there will alsoways be people who see such a system as an opportunity to get ahead in the game, which is why any such system needs to be carefully designed and implemented to try and keep it fair for those who are not able to pay, or simply do not want to. These players do give the world you have created that extra dimension of life, and I think this is very important to those small indy development studios that do not have the finances or resources to implement a competitive 'AI' system. I should probably stop there. I am starting to ramble.
I agree DDOs system works very well, and to implement a similar system in yours and many other games would be a great decision. Though part of the reason DDOs system works as well is it does is that it also allows even the free players the chance to gain access to 100% of the items in the mall through earning favor through regular gameplay. Keep that in mind while implementing your system. You would need to have some sort of similar system where players can gain a form of currency through the free play in order to access the same advantages as the paid players, or at the very least allow for trading of most or all items in game as well (similar to RoM, it allows you to post items on the AH for either in game gold or cash shop diamonds, so people with good stuff to sell in game can earn plenty of diamonds to buy stuff in the cash shop). I greatly support the F2P models of both of those games because they give everyone the chance to access everything, its just a matter of investing the time in the game to be able to purchase things, or spending some real $. That leaves no room really for anyone to complain about the games being pay to win and people having unfair advantages. Also Rohan didn't have a bad system either, they had an exchange market on their site that allowed you to put up items for sale through the market and people could go into it and buy stuff for cash shop credits, and the items would then be sent to their account in game.
Its like we are getting into an agreement over positive/negative characteristics of F2P games that can be objectivelly evaluated. This is very very good. Soon we will be able to reach the point where we can simply brand the results of this discussion everywhere on the internet for millions to see and get brainraped by the facts.
I agree with most of your points about free to play games. I do disagree with your position on boxed jello though. I think that jello is great. However, I agree that most people are buying into a scam and that it is unfortunate that such deceptive practices are allowed to continue.
He's just mad cause he can't get the patcher to work for DDO.
No, he's mad because he installed DDO so he could spend tons of money in the item mall, get the best weapons & armor, and parade around stroking his e-peen -- only to realize there are no uber items in the shop. The F2P doomsday machine lied to him. Oh, the horror!
I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
I used to hate F2P games with a similar passion to the OP, but after actually trying a few, I came to love them. It's as if those games are a giant fly trap for pre teens, spammers, retards, racists, hitler impersonators, etc etc.
They're doing a great service for those that prefer p2p games, by keeping the above mentioned people, that might have been tempted to play a p2p game given no other alternative, tied up in the endless line of F2P clones instead.
We are dealing with a lot of youngsters here Gameloding, so yes many do not understand how to manage their finances. F2P takes advantage of this with its revenue model and so that is an element of the scam, yes.
Actualy Jinaar that had never occurred to me, I always thought my own MMO’s had their fare share of nutters. But as you say there would be a lot more in my MMO if not for F2P. So I have changed my mind, I don’t want to see an end to F2P, we need a few to soak up anyone bonkers enough to play a game with that revenue model.
We are dealing with a lot of youngsters here Gameloding, so yes many do not understand how to manage their finances. F2P takes advantage of this with its revenue model and so that is an element of the scam, yes. Actualy Jinaar that had never occurred to me, I always thought my own MMO’s had their fare share of nutters. But as you say there would be a lot more in my MMO if not for F2P. So I have changed my mind, I don’t want to see an end to F2P, we need a few to soak up anyone bonkers enough to play a game with that revenue model.
By your definition, everything in the world is a scam because some youngsters can't manage their finances.
Supermarkets? Scam. Toy stores? Scam. Restaurant? Scam.
Do you now see just how silly it is to call these games a scam? These games do not force anyone to pay.
I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
Comments
have fun. maybe after the 15th time you switch game, you'll realize that the crystal wall of progression (where the game kindly hints you that if you dont pay more than your mortgage you will never be reaching anywhere) is always there....see a pattern?
thats what F2P gamers do, hop from game to game to game to game, most of them dont even last weeks before giving up, and try 50 games a year without finding any decent.
I wouldnt start playing a low quality, pathetic, rushed, shoestring budget generic clone, only to be forced to give up on it after 2 months. 2 wasted months better spent is a good P2P where the game becomes MORE enjoyable as you level, instead of less...
People should start considering that when they play a F2P games, the cash shop has had A LOT more though and brainpower put than the game itself.
They are not tricking anyone and getting a game for free, they are being used and abused, they gave the developers and the high spenders their time, become gatherers, crafters, activate the economy, populate the world so it doesnt feel empty and cheapens the high spenders experience, become cannon fodder to party, and finally....become the high spenders's bitches when it comes to competing.
for free.
freeloaders are being punching bags and arent getting any reward from it, when they start seeing there's something fun ahead other than grinding massively for everything, or get half close to an enjoyable endgame, the game tells them "THIS IS NOT FOR YOU. PAY OR WE WILL FRUSTRATE YOU UNTIL YOU GTFO"
Yeah I can't understand why anyone would want to pay more than $15 a month on their online game.
I read on the forum of on one of these free to play games (can't remember exactly which game) some guy had been drinking and in his intoxicated state logged on to the game and spent well over $200 on the cash shop.
And here he was on the forum desperately trying to get his money back but they just told him that it's not refundable.
haha thats kind of funny, and fully deserved.
Ex. myth of soma, legend of mir, mu online and eudemons online player.
Current game : Runescape (until pc build is complete)
newsflash: saying "no it isnt" without adding an argument or example of your own doesnt make you a great debater.
but let me guess, you'll come here and use DDO as example..I see, i see, reading the F2P kids in this board one would believe there is just one single F2P game out there, instead of hundreds...
Not quite. What I'm *trying* to say is that you are most likely to call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam you into buying it.
thats not really a valid metaphor for a F2P game.
a valid one would go as follows:
I would call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam me into buying it only if she were telling me I'd get a whole lunch of apple sausages, to then give me a bite of a small one for free and proceed on trying to charge me the rest of the meal at triple the normal price
and to be really valid , the apple sausages should be well past its sell-by date
I have to agree with all of your points.
Kinda harsh.... but I agree with most of what you say. There is no such thing as Free To Play. You will pay eventualy with either your wallet, game quality, advertisements, or rediculous load times.
The concept of an item mall is truly rediculous to me. If you can't beat em, go to the item mall and buy something to beat em with. It's the same thing as paying month to month. You still pay. And those that don't pay are making an indipendant decission to SUCK at whatever game they are playing.
I'm all for smaller cheaper games. GO INDIE!!!!!! FTP allows people who can't pay for a game to play modern MMO's. Thats the only reason that validates them at all. Those who don't have cash can play, as long as they are ok with the wealthy whippin their arse on a daily basis.
BoB
Because what really needed was this thread again...
Look, man, there are plenty of free to play games out there that you needn't buy anything to succeed at or complete anything.
I recently listed in another thread on this exact topic the model primarily used by Aeria Games, specifically for Grand Fantasia in which there is not one item in the shop that is necessary.
There are a few things that might assist you in crafting, however there are in game items that do the same thing. Everything is fluff. I admit there are a few that have game making or breaking items only in the shops, but they aren't the majority. Which to me is important anyway, variety makes the industry, companies and genre stronger. Just because you don't like one sub-group of the whole is no reason another can't.
DDO is a good example of understandable, translatable free to play with item shop.
In tabletop D&D if I want to play as a Dark Elf I have to go out and buy a sourcebook.
If I want a different environment and setting to be available to me and my group I have to buy a sourcebook.
So in DDO having to purchase the use of Dark Elves(they can also be easily earned in game) or have a couple of new modules, I have to pay a fee. Fair enough, keeps the lights on and the game from being useless on the client side. Win for the devs, they keep working. Win for me, I keep having servers to play on and only have to spend money if I want to, when I want to.
A slightly less rpg and more 3rd person shooter mmo would be PlayNC's Exteel. The only advantage to the item mall is getting the high end equipment quicker, rather than earning it over the course of gaming. So twinks get mecha they don't know how to use properly and get aced regularly by those of us fighting our way to an equivalent suit which, once earned will absolutely demolish theirs because we've got the experience of winning while outgunned.
The other advantage to that particular item shop is the better looking(personally) mecha are the ones bought. But stat wise they stack 1/1 against the equivalent non item shop mecha.
You see? Diversity, additional customization and such is more typical than top end in many of these games.
Try researching a bit before ranting on.
newsflash: saying "no it isnt" without adding an argument or example of your own doesnt make you a great debater.
but let me guess, you'll come here and use DDO as example..I see, i see, reading the F2P kids in this board one would believe there is just one single F2P game out there, instead of hundreds...
Not quite. What I'm *trying* to say is that you are most likely to call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam you into buying it.
thats not really a valid metaphor for a F2P game.
a valid one would go as follows:
I would call out the lady at the grocery store, who hands out free apple sausage, on trying to scam me into buying it only if she were telling me I'd get a whole lunch of apple sausages, to then give me a bite of a small one for free and proceed on trying to charge me the rest of the meal at triple the normal price
and to be really valid , the apple sausages should be well past its sell-by date
Poor metaphor. In the vast majority of free to play games, you get access to all gameplay content.
Face it, Free to play is not a scam. You don't have to like it, thats fine, but saying it is a scam is just silly.
I think its funny that a game that allows you to play for free as much as you want is considered a scam, but a game which first charges you 50 bucks before you can play it is considered the decent way.
Wrong again. She'd show you a lunch, but the best parts are behind glass, and they charge by the ounce. I don't remember any f2p game "trying to charge me" for anything. I would just take the free sides, get what I wanted from it, and go on my way to something better.
We both agree that most f2p games are simply subpar, and make up for a backup "I'm *that* bored" MMO. That means "why should I care about being competitive?". If someone wants to spend money on it, and treat it like their main in order to get more out of it - more power to them. There has not been an f2p MMO I wouldn't dump money on because I hate the tactics behind it - it's because the games are "meh" to begin with. ~and who cares if a meh-game is free, but you'll never out-do anyone plowing money in? If it was that good I'd probably be paying something.
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I believe that this is a very closed minded opinion of the model. You are looking at this obvious as a "hardcore" player, which is not the position of every mmo player. I look at things a little differently; I to have been playing mmo's since most people on the site where in elementry school. Due to that fact, I now have a very involved job, a wife and a 3 year old child. Now that my life has changed, I no longer have the time to be a "hardcore" player. While I do see your perspective that you would rather pay the $15 per month and get all content entitled for that fee, for a guy like me, that model is a scam. I now get to play roughly an hour or so every other night, and sometimes on the weekend, so you can see how I would have an issue paying $15 a month for something I may only play for 10 hours a month. But this is what I have been doing due to the lack of good quality free to play games. Now, with the free to play, even with buying items, I end up spending roughly $6 a month to play. This is far better suited to my playstyle then the $15 a month plan.
All I'm saying here is that what you depict as a "scam" is a savior to some... who consider it a scam to pay $15 a month reguardless of how much or little they play. If you have a lot of time to play, then obviously the $15 a month plan is very good; however, please try to understand that we all can't play games for 40 hours a week.
Thanks,
I believe that this is a very closed minded opinion of the model. You are looking at this obvious as a "hardcore" player, which is not the position of every mmo player. I look at things a little differently; I to have been playing mmo's since most people on the site where in elementry school. Due to that fact, I now have a very involved job, a wife and a 3 year old child. Now that my life has changed, I no longer have the time to be a "hardcore" player. While I do see your perspective that you would rather pay the $15 per month and get all content entitled for that fee, for a guy like me, that model is a scam. I now get to play roughly an hour or so every other night, and sometimes on the weekend, so you can see how I would have an issue paying $15 a month for something I may only play for 10 hours a month. But this is what I have been doing due to the lack of good quality free to play games. Now, with the free to play, even with buying items, I end up spending roughly $6 a month to play. This is far better suited to my playstyle then the $15 a month plan.
All I'm saying here is that what you depict as a "scam" is a savior to some... who consider it a scam to pay $15 a month reguardless of how much or little they play. If you have a lot of time to play, then obviously the $15 a month plan is very good; however, please try to understand that we all can't play games for 40 hours a week.
Thanks,
Praetalus, I think you and I are probably same age range and likely in similar situation.
Time is a major factor for me. Married(to another gamer yay!), two children, work, school, doctors, eating, sleeping, shopping, telephones, emails, vehicle and home maintenance, it's enough to drive you mad. Then you work out your budget and try to factor in 15 bucks for a very minute percentage of your time?
I didn't start out as early as you maybe, I'm EQ2 and SWG alum(my wife was EQ1 launch and introduced me to mmo gaming, I've played CoH/CoV, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Have lifetime sub on pre-ordered LotRO, DDO, and played Pirates of the Carribean with my youngest and my wife.
I currently keep ducking back into LotRO which paid itself off a year ago, DDO, and occasionally Exteel/PotC/Perfect World.
Once in a great while I duck into Guild Wars.
Not having to pay for anything is a major boon to those of us who haven't got the time, and yes, those of us who aren't even Middle Class anymore.
Gaming is my final luxury, free to play allows me to have that.
I think F2P games with cash shops are great! If you are an epeen flexing, trash talking, power gamer that absolutely has to be #1, in a cash shop game you get to pay for that privilege. For a mostly casual gamer like myself these games really are free.
It's been said before "A fool and his money are soon parted" if you spent your rent check on a game, or lotto tickets, or in Vegas, that sounds pretty foolish to me.
DDO's Hybrid paying model is the way most F2P's should go instead they want to sell you Items that are required to enjoy the game....
ALLODS online is a good example and is Tanking faster than anything...before the cash shop it was packed now I hear it's dead in there and in GameChat all there talking about is the cash shop really sad. In the US forums they are shutting down threads just for bringing up those issues...good ole Russians.
IMO Guild Wars had the perfect model except for their instancing which will be addressed in Part 2 all these other Pay2Win companies are going to FAIL
Well, if you ask me I think Free-To-Play is commonly misunderstood by people, thus why some people think it's a scam. There is a misconception about the whole system.
Free-To-Play: Play now, pay later. No subscription fee to start, but the idea is to get you to pay for it some time down the road. It's not a scam, that's how it's always been.
It is more like "Play now, MAY pay later". Many players never get to the "pay later" stage and enjoy their experiences for free.
It's not a scam, but it's not free either
This was meant to be a joke right. I hope you aren't serious. Its a GAME.
IMO Guild Wars sucked. I hated it. That's the problem, we all have opinions on what will work, but you seem to know what will fail. I would like to see your data on Allods tanking faster then "anything"; as I currently play Allods and it is still full to the brim with players. The only people leaving are the "hardcore" Warcraft crowd who somehow find time to play these games for 40 hours a week. The more normal and casual gamers are still playing Allods.
Personally I like DDO's hybrid system and we are attempting to implement something similar, albeit on a smaller scale and necessarily adapted, into DarkSpace.
Now, speaking as a developer on this issue:
I would love to be able to provide a game for free, relying totally on altruism and never charging anyone a cent for the experience. Sadly this is not possible. Server running costs have to be paid for somehow, and I am certainly not in a position to be able to finance this out of my own pocket. Instead, I work on the aforementioned project for free, knowing that all the of money we get will go back into the continued running and maintenance of the project. In fact, the entire development team work on this basis, and the entire community is well aware of this fact.
Are you still going to call those players 'dupes' because they choose to support us because they actually enjoy playing our game? Are you going to call the players who have purposefully created alternate accounts in order to give us more money 'dupes' as well? It is there free choice to do so, and we have never encouraged this.
What would be dumb is if we did not give the players the means of helping us that they are clearly demanding. As subscription based, we were very limited in our options on this front, but going as free-to-play means we have a much wider array of options at our disposal, and we will have a much better system for rewarding those people who have chosen to give us thier support.
This said, there will alsoways be people who see such a system as an opportunity to get ahead in the game, which is why any such system needs to be carefully designed and implemented to try and keep it fair for those who are not able to pay, or simply do not want to. These players do give the world you have created that extra dimension of life, and I think this is very important to those small indy development studios that do not have the finances or resources to implement a competitive 'AI' system.
I should probably stop there. I am starting to ramble.
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I agree DDOs system works very well, and to implement a similar system in yours and many other games would be a great decision. Though part of the reason DDOs system works as well is it does is that it also allows even the free players the chance to gain access to 100% of the items in the mall through earning favor through regular gameplay. Keep that in mind while implementing your system. You would need to have some sort of similar system where players can gain a form of currency through the free play in order to access the same advantages as the paid players, or at the very least allow for trading of most or all items in game as well (similar to RoM, it allows you to post items on the AH for either in game gold or cash shop diamonds, so people with good stuff to sell in game can earn plenty of diamonds to buy stuff in the cash shop). I greatly support the F2P models of both of those games because they give everyone the chance to access everything, its just a matter of investing the time in the game to be able to purchase things, or spending some real $. That leaves no room really for anyone to complain about the games being pay to win and people having unfair advantages. Also Rohan didn't have a bad system either, they had an exchange market on their site that allowed you to put up items for sale through the market and people could go into it and buy stuff for cash shop credits, and the items would then be sent to their account in game.
Very good discussion. Lots of interesting points.
Its like we are getting into an agreement over positive/negative characteristics of F2P games that can be objectivelly evaluated. This is very very good. Soon we will be able to reach the point where we can simply brand the results of this discussion everywhere on the internet for millions to see and get brainraped by the facts.
I agree with most of your points about free to play games. I do disagree with your position on boxed jello though. I think that jello is great. However, I agree that most people are buying into a scam and that it is unfortunate that such deceptive practices are allowed to continue.
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No, he's mad because he installed DDO so he could spend tons of money in the item mall, get the best weapons & armor, and parade around stroking his e-peen -- only to realize there are no uber items in the shop. The F2P doomsday machine lied to him. Oh, the horror!
I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
I used to hate F2P games with a similar passion to the OP, but after actually trying a few, I came to love them. It's as if those games are a giant fly trap for pre teens, spammers, retards, racists, hitler impersonators, etc etc.
They're doing a great service for those that prefer p2p games, by keeping the above mentioned people, that might have been tempted to play a p2p game given no other alternative, tied up in the endless line of F2P clones instead.
We are dealing with a lot of youngsters here Gameloding, so yes many do not understand how to manage their finances. F2P takes advantage of this with its revenue model and so that is an element of the scam, yes.
Actualy Jinaar that had never occurred to me, I always thought my own MMO’s had their fare share of nutters. But as you say there would be a lot more in my MMO if not for F2P. So I have changed my mind, I don’t want to see an end to F2P, we need a few to soak up anyone bonkers enough to play a game with that revenue model.
By your definition, everything in the world is a scam because some youngsters can't manage their finances.
Supermarkets? Scam. Toy stores? Scam. Restaurant? Scam.
Do you now see just how silly it is to call these games a scam? These games do not force anyone to pay.
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.