I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
but you can say that for a few pay to play games with people buying gold or power lvls and items from illegal sites..
ya you might say it's not as bad but i was around when ebay totaly destroyed my fun in eq pvp.
one day i kill a guy he gets mad attacks me over and over and i kill him few days go by he comes back twinked to the teeth and corps camps me.. so ya there is no fair game anymore with hacks and bots gold farmers ... i would rather play free games now them most pay to play
It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop.
The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence.
One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game.
And all of that with a plus: the targets more offen than not are just intelectually unaware/defenseless kids/young people.
No, dude, YOU ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY. It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop. The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence. One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game. And all of that with a plus: the targets more offen than not are just intelectually unaware/defenseless kids/young people. Interesting [Mod Edit]
I've played maybe 10-20 F2P games of the last few years. Only one has got my money: the one game with purely lateral purchases (League of Legends).
The remaining 9-19? Yeah, they got nothing.
I wasn't forced to pay. Period.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
but you can say that for a few pay to play games with people buying gold or power lvls and items from illegal sites..
ya you might say it's not as bad but i was around when ebay totaly destroyed my fun in eq pvp.
one day i kill a guy he gets mad attacks me over and over and i kill him few days go by he comes back twinked to the teeth and corps camps me.. so ya there is no fair game anymore with hacks and bots gold farmers ... i would rather play free games now them most pay to play
Ok, dude, your argument is also old and invalid.
Two wrongs doesnt make a right.
The exception and existance of people buying ingame stuff outside the game, breaking the game rules, risking getting banned, doesnt make it ok to directly sell stuff in the cash shop to unbalance people that have money and those who dont.
Originally posted by Interesting No, dude, YOU ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY.
It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop. The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence. One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game.
Interesting [Mod Edit]
Youre absolutely right, why couldnt we all see it before. You couldnt possibly choose not to play the game.... or possibly realize youre not going to be the best in pvp without spending as much money as others (even though you probably suck at fair PvP in a P2P game anyway....) and just deal with it and have as much fun as you can for FREE.... or play one of the 836458962346 PVE focused F2P games on the internet that dont require you to worry about getting owned by other players in pvp.
Thank you for showing us all the light and showing us that it isnt everyones lack of simple things like common sense, self control, rationalization, and not knowing how to keep your debit card in your wallet instead of whipping it out every time you see an advertisement for some new flashy item on the screen... but it is instead these evil game companies fault.
F2P is a terrible model by which to offer a gaming service. There is a lot of merit in the idea of subscribing to a service, receiving the service for that fee and not be expected to pay any more. There is also merit in paying a one time fee for a game like in the example of Guild wars. There is no merit in the "free to play" model because at its core it intends to be deceitful. Any model that requires financial top-ops just to progress within the content is no different that online poker or other gambling. Further, any model that makes a total required financial contribution unclear is a scam. Of couse I come from a mmo era of simpler times when there werent even %10 of you playing these games and we paid or $10 for a UO account. F2P exists for the same reason dollar rama stores and cheap boxed generic jello exist......because people buy into it. I don't mean to personally offend anyone but the F2p model is clearly to the advantage of any publisher rather than the gamer and therefore does nothing constructive to a already crap-ridden and innovatively impotent creative environment.
It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop. The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence. One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game. And all of that with a plus: the targets more offen than not are just intelectually unaware/defenseless kids/young people.
Interesting [Mod Edit]
You need to look up what the term forced means because it doesn't mean what you think it means. These games do not in any way force anybody to buy items.
This thread made me laugh. Nexon must have scammed me, I knew it!
Seriously, been playing Mabinogi for....a year now. In that whole year, I spend 30$. I wanted to gain access to more character customization (fluff) and buy a pet. Also bought several other items with cash shop money, but I could've bought those items from other players using in-game currency. Most of the items can be re-sold in-game so even if those items may give you a certain advantage, even non-payers can gain access to it through other players.
There's also Dungeon Fighter Online, played that game for a few months but never paid any money. The "Avatars" from the Cash Shop offers rather important boosts of stats to the player, but these Avatars can be traded with other players through the in-game currency, so again, non-payers also have access this content.
MapleStory also offers fluff items. Costumes, customizations, XP pots.
MapleStory has 92 million players across the world (according to 2008 stats I believe). Mabinogi has 2 millions players worldwide, and I don't know about Dungeon Fighter though.
I've been scammed big time, how did I not see this coming? I must be dumb.
It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop. The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence. One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game. And all of that with a plus: the targets more offen than not are just intelectually unaware/defenseless kids/young people.
Interesting [Mod Edit]
This is stupid beyond belief. Hmm . i have been playing a few F2P games on and off for a while and i haven't paid a cent. Now where is that "i am forced to pay" again?
I feel like I'm the one scamming all the companies that make the F2P games. I download and play their creations for free an never have any intention of ever spending any money on them.
And if I have to pay money to have fun in their F2P game? Well then screw it. I quit the game and find another free game. Sounds like I'm the winner here.
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
DDO is fun. I have a blast running quests in that game. And what balance? I am not doing PvP in the game anyway.
ALLOD is ok, better than RoM but very much a WOW clone at the low levels (a free WOW clone with nice graphics is not a bad distraction though).
So two examples for you. I am sure the millions of players of DDO, Maple Story, RoM are finding fun too .. otherwise they won't be still playing.
Scams don’t force anyone to pay, I think the people going on about being forced are using the wrong words. You are enticed to pay and youngsters are more prone to falling for such enticement.
DDO was built on a triple AAA budget and still has an all in subscription revenue model. Apart from those two tiny details it’s a wonderful example of F2P.
Allod’s is the MMO that priced a cash shop item at 30k $’s if I remember right? Another example of the gold standard that F2P offers the gaming community.
80 million people have played Farmville, we don’t know if they are still playing, but it must be a wonderful game because at some stage 80 million people did register for the game. By your definition we should all be playing Farmville, I am sure that is 'fun' too.
As an aside I notice my spell checker automatically corrected ‘farmville’ to ‘Farmville’ for me, now that’s the power of 80 million registrations for you.
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Since the publisher controls both the content difficutly and a toggle (which cost's real money) my ablity to make money becomes a function of exactly how much people are willing to pay to make the game easier.
You people will be wondering why this genre sucks in a few years to come. If it goes all f2p like it appears to be going the resason will be because difficulty is a function of profit in the f2p model.
ps. if you're not a paying customer in the f2p model do not overstate your role in such a community. You are filler and fodder for the paying folks......do you go to a resturant to eat the free salad?
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls. That's all you'll see in MapleStory's cash shop. No "+stats items", nothing that imbalances for the non-payers.
A Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item IS succesfull and Nexon Games Cash Shops are proof of this fact.
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
The counter-argument to this is that one way games appeal to players is the effort vs. reward structure. You accomplished something which is known for being difficult, and you get rewarded. Often with both a gameplay reward, and a less talked about social reward of being able to show off to nearby observers. This effort vs. reward structure breaks if money can replace effort ("effort" meaning Skill & Time) so one aspect of fun in games is "ruined".
The counter-counter-argument being that the same "show off" vanity factor still exists when people spend real-world money to achieve something. An identical mental process is going to occur in both the viewer and the show-offs' minds.
The argument culminates with the questions, "What do we want to teach players? What do we want the game to be about?" Games are invariably interesting for the lessons they teach.
With performance items, the lesson being taught is "money gets you ahead."
While it's fine for some games to teach that lesson, it's not something I personally feel I need to learn. So I'll avoid F2P games where it's a predominant theme of gameplay, preferring to find games which teach me things like min/maxing decisions, social skills, and other things which have real-world utility.
Even if I already "know" those lessons, they're still valuable. I've played hundreds of games with min/maxing decision-making, yet it's a skill which is never 100% mastered (which is why it's so common in games.) This is also why love stories are so common, and why people (often women) will go see that 50th new movie about love, even though they've already seen 49 previous ones. The books which I've learned the most from were the ones which stated things I already basically "knew" but they described it in a particularly enlightening way, resulting in a superior organization of thoughts in my muddled mind.
Half of why I make these forum posts is to repeat the lessons I've learned to myself, to view what I've wrote, and to rewrite it until I have a clearer picture of what makes for good game design. And arriving at this point, I find myself realizing that it's the fundamental reason of why we learn so well by teaching. The "teaching" isn't really what matters (I certainly don't make it a focus of my forum posts) but rather it's constant thought exerted upon an idea (which is what you're automatically going to do when you teach something.)
Anyways I've veered sharply offtopic in the last 2 paragraphs. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
“MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls.”
He then describes that as a “Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item”
They have scrolls that give you XP and he thinks that is not unbalancing? The cash shop has Teleport scrolls too, in case just sitting in the cash shop and feeding yourself XP does not level you fast enough.
It is a truly worrying when players think something like this is fine, sitting in a Skinner box and paying to press the more XP button is not fine.
To be honest I had never considered the social ramifications, but subs do teach youngsters to play fair. F2P engenders the idea life is free until you realise that to be the best you need to spend loads of money, a mixed message.
This cracked me up: “MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls.” He then describes that as a “Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item” They have scrolls that give you XP and he thinks that is not unbalancing? The cash shop has Teleport scrolls too, in case just sitting in the cash shop and feeding yourself XP does not level you fast enough. It is a truly worrying when players think something like this is fine, sitting in a Skinner box and paying to press the more XP button is not fine. To be honest I had never considered the social ramifications, but subs do teach youngsters to play fair. F2P engenders the idea life is free until you realise that to be the best you need to spend loads of money, a mixed message.
i dont play maplestory but i play combat arms quite often and even tho there are some minor nexon cash shop items that give an advantage not much that I see to be a hinderance or keeping me from being competetive
This cracked me up: “MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls.” He then describes that as a “Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item” They have scrolls that give you XP and he thinks that is not unbalancing? The cash shop has Teleport scrolls too, in case just sitting in the cash shop and feeding yourself XP does not level you fast enough. It is a truly worrying when players think something like this is fine, sitting in a Skinner box and paying to press the more XP button is not fine. To be honest I had never considered the social ramifications, but subs do teach youngsters to play fair. F2P engenders the idea life is free until you realise that to be the best you need to spend loads of money, a mixed message.
None of these items are necessary to be 'competitive'. Teleport Scroll mainly helps the lazy who don't want to walk for an additionnal 5-10 minutes (It's very easy to go from point A to point B by walking.
And there's no reason why XP potions are not fine. If it really isn't fine, then I fear that DDO might be an even bigger scam!
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
The counter-argument to this is that one way games appeal to players is the effort vs. reward structure. You accomplished something which is known for being difficult, and you get rewarded. Often with both a gameplay reward, and a less talked about social reward of being able to show off to nearby observers. This effort vs. reward structure breaks if money can replace effort ("effort" meaning Skill & Time) so one aspect of fun in games is "ruined".
The counter-counter-argument being that the same "show off" vanity factor still exists when people spend real-world money to achieve something. An identical mental process is going to occur in both the viewer and the show-offs' minds.
The argument culminates with the questions, "What do we want to teach players? What do we want the game to be about?" Games are invariably interesting for the lessons they teach.
With performance items, the lesson being taught is "money gets you ahead."
While it's fine for some games to teach that lesson, it's not something I personally feel I need to learn. So I'll avoid F2P games where it's a predominant theme of gameplay, preferring to find games which teach me things like min/maxing decisions, social skills, and other things which have real-world utility.
Even if I already "know" those lessons, they're still valuable. I've played hundreds of games with min/maxing decision-making, yet it's a skill which is never 100% mastered (which is why it's so common in games.) This is also why love stories are so common, and why people (often women) will go see that 50th new movie about love, even though they've already seen 49 previous ones. The books which I've learned the most from were the ones which stated things I already basically "knew" but they described it in a particularly enlightening way, resulting in a superior organization of thoughts in my muddled mind.
Half of why I make these forum posts is to repeat the lessons I've learned to myself, to view what I've wrote, and to rewrite it until I have a clearer picture of what makes for good game design. And arriving at this point, I find myself realizing that it's the fundamental reason of why we learn so well by teaching. The "teaching" isn't really what matters (I certainly don't make it a focus of my forum posts) but rather it's constant thought exerted upon an idea (which is what you're automatically going to do when you teach something.)
Anyways I've veered sharply offtopic in the last 2 paragraphs. :P
If a money-reward-structure ruin the fun, why would millions of players still play F2P games? The answer is obvious .. it does not and while a money-reward-structure may ruin the fun for some (like u), it does not for millions.
I think the view that MMO will teach us something with utility in the real life is just flawed. We are talking about GAMES here. People go in to waste some time, and may be with the satisfaction of killing some mobs with nice spells effects. I highly doubt most players are looking for life lessons here.
THAT is the reason why F2P have millions of free riders. They do NOT care most of the stuff you talk about if there is some free entertainment to be had.
If you want a litmus test on the F2P and P2P issue you only have to look at how gaming companies handle the revenue model problem as opposed to others in MMO’s. Most players don’t want perma death, so that idea is thankfully going nowhere. Most players don’t want F2P but that idea is not dying out. F2P is not being brought in because of player demand; it is being foisted on us to make MMO’s a cash cow. What players want is irrelevant.
I didnt read through all the thread but my opinion is that F2P with item mall is a great setup.
It allows for players that might have it tight on cash (Younger players etc.) to be able to enjoy games them to.
And for players that might have a bit more cash to blow they do so if they like the game. Thus making up for all the free players you have. So its basically a payment model that is based on your income.
It also allows you to try the game before you decide to buy anything whatsoever. Wich eliminates the need for "trails".
If done right in my opinion this is a great model for games.
Comments
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
but you can say that for a few pay to play games with people buying gold or power lvls and items from illegal sites..
ya you might say it's not as bad but i was around when ebay totaly destroyed my fun in eq pvp.
one day i kill a guy he gets mad attacks me over and over and i kill him few days go by he comes back twinked to the teeth and corps camps me.. so ya there is no fair game anymore with hacks and bots gold farmers ... i would rather play free games now them most pay to play
No, dude, YOU ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY.
It doesnt matter if there isnt someone pointing a gun at you and telling you to buy stuff on the cash shop.
The players free will is viced, by error, by undue influence, by fraud, by lesion, by mistake, by ignorance, by being hyposufficient (weak against the developers arbitrariety). Not just by "physical" violence.
One could even argue about moral violence: you have to spend money to compete, to prevent getting raped/owned in the game.
And all of that with a plus: the targets more offen than not are just intelectually unaware/defenseless kids/young people.
Interesting
[Mod Edit]
I've played maybe 10-20 F2P games of the last few years. Only one has got my money: the one game with purely lateral purchases (League of Legends).
The remaining 9-19? Yeah, they got nothing.
I wasn't forced to pay. Period.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
but you can say that for a few pay to play games with people buying gold or power lvls and items from illegal sites..
ya you might say it's not as bad but i was around when ebay totaly destroyed my fun in eq pvp.
one day i kill a guy he gets mad attacks me over and over and i kill him few days go by he comes back twinked to the teeth and corps camps me.. so ya there is no fair game anymore with hacks and bots gold farmers ... i would rather play free games now them most pay to play
Ok, dude, your argument is also old and invalid.
Two wrongs doesnt make a right.
The exception and existance of people buying ingame stuff outside the game, breaking the game rules, risking getting banned, doesnt make it ok to directly sell stuff in the cash shop to unbalance people that have money and those who dont.
[Mod Edit]
Youre absolutely right, why couldnt we all see it before. You couldnt possibly choose not to play the game.... or possibly realize youre not going to be the best in pvp without spending as much money as others (even though you probably suck at fair PvP in a P2P game anyway....) and just deal with it and have as much fun as you can for FREE.... or play one of the 836458962346 PVE focused F2P games on the internet that dont require you to worry about getting owned by other players in pvp.
Thank you for showing us all the light and showing us that it isnt everyones lack of simple things like common sense, self control, rationalization, and not knowing how to keep your debit card in your wallet instead of whipping it out every time you see an advertisement for some new flashy item on the screen... but it is instead these evil game companies fault.
Well stated - 100% agree!
You need to look up what the term forced means because it doesn't mean what you think it means. These games do not in any way force anybody to buy items.
This thread made me laugh. Nexon must have scammed me, I knew it!
Seriously, been playing Mabinogi for....a year now. In that whole year, I spend 30$. I wanted to gain access to more character customization (fluff) and buy a pet. Also bought several other items with cash shop money, but I could've bought those items from other players using in-game currency. Most of the items can be re-sold in-game so even if those items may give you a certain advantage, even non-payers can gain access to it through other players.
There's also Dungeon Fighter Online, played that game for a few months but never paid any money. The "Avatars" from the Cash Shop offers rather important boosts of stats to the player, but these Avatars can be traded with other players through the in-game currency, so again, non-payers also have access this content.
MapleStory also offers fluff items. Costumes, customizations, XP pots.
MapleStory has 92 million players across the world (according to 2008 stats I believe). Mabinogi has 2 millions players worldwide, and I don't know about Dungeon Fighter though.
I've been scammed big time, how did I not see this coming? I must be dumb.
/facepalm
This is stupid beyond belief. Hmm . i have been playing a few F2P games on and off for a while and i haven't paid a cent. Now where is that "i am forced to pay" again?
Except that you cant name a single game that is fun, whose F2P cash shop doesnt ruin the balance between free players and whose without deep pockets.
DDO is fun. I have a blast running quests in that game. And what balance? I am not doing PvP in the game anyway.
ALLOD is ok, better than RoM but very much a WOW clone at the low levels (a free WOW clone with nice graphics is not a bad distraction though).
So two examples for you. I am sure the millions of players of DDO, Maple Story, RoM are finding fun too .. otherwise they won't be still playing.
Scams don’t force anyone to pay, I think the people going on about being forced are using the wrong words. You are enticed to pay and youngsters are more prone to falling for such enticement.
DDO was built on a triple AAA budget and still has an all in subscription revenue model. Apart from those two tiny details it’s a wonderful example of F2P.
Allod’s is the MMO that priced a cash shop item at 30k $’s if I remember right? Another example of the gold standard that F2P offers the gaming community.
80 million people have played Farmville, we don’t know if they are still playing, but it must be a wonderful game because at some stage 80 million people did register for the game. By your definition we should all be playing Farmville, I am sure that is 'fun' too.
As an aside I notice my spell checker automatically corrected ‘farmville’ to ‘Farmville’ for me, now that’s the power of 80 million registrations for you.
Its an ingenius concept really.
Make a game with a certain difficulty factor.
Offer it for free.
Offer players the ability to make the game easier if they buy stuff.
Since the publisher controls both the content difficutly and a toggle (which cost's real money) my ablity to make money becomes a function of exactly how much people are willing to pay to make the game easier.
You people will be wondering why this genre sucks in a few years to come. If it goes all f2p like it appears to be going the resason will be because difficulty is a function of profit in the f2p model.
ps. if you're not a paying customer in the f2p model do not overstate your role in such a community. You are filler and fodder for the paying folks......do you go to a resturant to eat the free salad?
I play F2P games and I have not been duped nor scammed. I have not spent a cent of money..
Dustin
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls. That's all you'll see in MapleStory's cash shop. No "+stats items", nothing that imbalances for the non-payers.
A Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item IS succesfull and Nexon Games Cash Shops are proof of this fact.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
The counter-argument to this is that one way games appeal to players is the effort vs. reward structure. You accomplished something which is known for being difficult, and you get rewarded. Often with both a gameplay reward, and a less talked about social reward of being able to show off to nearby observers. This effort vs. reward structure breaks if money can replace effort ("effort" meaning Skill & Time) so one aspect of fun in games is "ruined".
The counter-counter-argument being that the same "show off" vanity factor still exists when people spend real-world money to achieve something. An identical mental process is going to occur in both the viewer and the show-offs' minds.
The argument culminates with the questions, "What do we want to teach players? What do we want the game to be about?" Games are invariably interesting for the lessons they teach.
With performance items, the lesson being taught is "money gets you ahead."
While it's fine for some games to teach that lesson, it's not something I personally feel I need to learn. So I'll avoid F2P games where it's a predominant theme of gameplay, preferring to find games which teach me things like min/maxing decisions, social skills, and other things which have real-world utility.
Even if I already "know" those lessons, they're still valuable. I've played hundreds of games with min/maxing decision-making, yet it's a skill which is never 100% mastered (which is why it's so common in games.) This is also why love stories are so common, and why people (often women) will go see that 50th new movie about love, even though they've already seen 49 previous ones. The books which I've learned the most from were the ones which stated things I already basically "knew" but they described it in a particularly enlightening way, resulting in a superior organization of thoughts in my muddled mind.
Half of why I make these forum posts is to repeat the lessons I've learned to myself, to view what I've wrote, and to rewrite it until I have a clearer picture of what makes for good game design. And arriving at this point, I find myself realizing that it's the fundamental reason of why we learn so well by teaching. The "teaching" isn't really what matters (I certainly don't make it a focus of my forum posts) but rather it's constant thought exerted upon an idea (which is what you're automatically going to do when you teach something.)
Anyways I've veered sharply offtopic in the last 2 paragraphs. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This cracked me up:
“MapleStory's Cash Shop is composed of Fluff items (cosmetic), Pets that will loot items for you, XP Scrolls, Stats Reset, Skill Reset and Teleport Scrolls.”
He then describes that as a “Cash Shop based on Fluff/Cosmetic/Vanity item”
They have scrolls that give you XP and he thinks that is not unbalancing? The cash shop has Teleport scrolls too, in case just sitting in the cash shop and feeding yourself XP does not level you fast enough.
It is a truly worrying when players think something like this is fine, sitting in a Skinner box and paying to press the more XP button is not fine.
To be honest I had never considered the social ramifications, but subs do teach youngsters to play fair. F2P engenders the idea life is free until you realise that to be the best you need to spend loads of money, a mixed message.
i dont play maplestory but i play combat arms quite often and even tho there are some minor nexon cash shop items that give an advantage not much that I see to be a hinderance or keeping me from being competetive
None of these items are necessary to be 'competitive'. Teleport Scroll mainly helps the lazy who don't want to walk for an additionnal 5-10 minutes (It's very easy to go from point A to point B by walking.
And there's no reason why XP potions are not fine. If it really isn't fine, then I fear that DDO might be an even bigger scam!
If it aids players indirectly, its abusive.
The price of the items doesnt matter, if its available, people can buy it.
If people can spend more than $15 bucks per month, its abusive, by default, doesnt matter if it sells only cosmethics.
Well what about F2P games where the things you buy are mainly about cosmetic stuff like mounts, special hair sets, dyes and so on? I think these cash-models are ok and can be played without stress when you do not pay.
"Mainly" does not mean "only", it takes one item mall item to turn the game "pay-to-win friendly".
And why must you pay for cosmetic stuff, is it just because you don't care about what doesn't enhance your stats and experience?
So F2P games are pay-to-win friendly. So what? millions of people don't care about that and can still have fun. Oh, most pve games don't have "winning" .. it only have progression.
The counter-argument to this is that one way games appeal to players is the effort vs. reward structure. You accomplished something which is known for being difficult, and you get rewarded. Often with both a gameplay reward, and a less talked about social reward of being able to show off to nearby observers. This effort vs. reward structure breaks if money can replace effort ("effort" meaning Skill & Time) so one aspect of fun in games is "ruined".
The counter-counter-argument being that the same "show off" vanity factor still exists when people spend real-world money to achieve something. An identical mental process is going to occur in both the viewer and the show-offs' minds.
The argument culminates with the questions, "What do we want to teach players? What do we want the game to be about?" Games are invariably interesting for the lessons they teach.
With performance items, the lesson being taught is "money gets you ahead."
While it's fine for some games to teach that lesson, it's not something I personally feel I need to learn. So I'll avoid F2P games where it's a predominant theme of gameplay, preferring to find games which teach me things like min/maxing decisions, social skills, and other things which have real-world utility.
Even if I already "know" those lessons, they're still valuable. I've played hundreds of games with min/maxing decision-making, yet it's a skill which is never 100% mastered (which is why it's so common in games.) This is also why love stories are so common, and why people (often women) will go see that 50th new movie about love, even though they've already seen 49 previous ones. The books which I've learned the most from were the ones which stated things I already basically "knew" but they described it in a particularly enlightening way, resulting in a superior organization of thoughts in my muddled mind.
Half of why I make these forum posts is to repeat the lessons I've learned to myself, to view what I've wrote, and to rewrite it until I have a clearer picture of what makes for good game design. And arriving at this point, I find myself realizing that it's the fundamental reason of why we learn so well by teaching. The "teaching" isn't really what matters (I certainly don't make it a focus of my forum posts) but rather it's constant thought exerted upon an idea (which is what you're automatically going to do when you teach something.)
Anyways I've veered sharply offtopic in the last 2 paragraphs. :P
If a money-reward-structure ruin the fun, why would millions of players still play F2P games? The answer is obvious .. it does not and while a money-reward-structure may ruin the fun for some (like u), it does not for millions.
I think the view that MMO will teach us something with utility in the real life is just flawed. We are talking about GAMES here. People go in to waste some time, and may be with the satisfaction of killing some mobs with nice spells effects. I highly doubt most players are looking for life lessons here.
THAT is the reason why F2P have millions of free riders. They do NOT care most of the stuff you talk about if there is some free entertainment to be had.
If you want a litmus test on the F2P and P2P issue you only have to look at how gaming companies handle the revenue model problem as opposed to others in MMO’s. Most players don’t want perma death, so that idea is thankfully going nowhere. Most players don’t want F2P but that idea is not dying out. F2P is not being brought in because of player demand; it is being foisted on us to make MMO’s a cash cow. What players want is irrelevant.
I didnt read through all the thread but my opinion is that F2P with item mall is a great setup.
It allows for players that might have it tight on cash (Younger players etc.) to be able to enjoy games them to.
And for players that might have a bit more cash to blow they do so if they like the game. Thus making up for all the free players you have. So its basically a payment model that is based on your income.
It also allows you to try the game before you decide to buy anything whatsoever. Wich eliminates the need for "trails".
If done right in my opinion this is a great model for games.
When curiosity outweighs reason