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Why World PvP > Instanced | Arena PvP
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Um to be honest is actually harder to kill someone in an arena setting rather than in an open world where you can actually set things up to make it one sided. Sorry But honestly there really is no way to say which version of pvp is better. Everyone has different tastes. Also EQ pvp was horrible let us not compare it to the current pvp in our mmo's today.
The views like that(yours) are what produce dumb games like Darkfall or Mortal Online instead of games like EVE online.
EDIT: I am pointing at DF and MO being 'dumb' compared to EVE since they are often considered as similar game types despite the trendemous difference in game structure.
The views like that(yours) are what produce dumb games like Darkfall or Mortal Online instead of games like EVE online.
Lets not go bashing people preferences in games now. Darkfall as of now isn't a terrible game but it still is pretty subpar compared to what was promised. MO never happened imo.
What does "being harder to kill someone" have to do with anything?
That doesn't mean anything. How does that relate to the PvP system being fun? Oh wait it doesn't.
Is it harder to go 5v5 or 5v10 and win? Which one is harder? 5v10? World PvP is harder in all aspects, that is why PVErs don't want it. They want fake instanced PvP that is boring, just as a way to farm gear, not because they like PvP.
Ah, I am sorry. I haven't realized it may sound like that. It was not meant as such.
What I was pointing at is that Darkfall or Mortal Online are often in a way placed next to EVE Online to share some specific which in fact is very incorrect.
DF and MO are just 'dumb' compared to EVE even though they might be often seen similar in a way.
It is not about game preference, play whatever you want, all games are equal on this level.
My opinion > your opinion
at least imo.
I just condensed your arguement for you.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Let's see. I'll put my mean hat on since this seems like a good place for it, following isn't 100% serious, but what the hey:
BG's held a level of play unheard of in world pvp, arenas doubled that. I'm sure hiding in the crowd, roleplaying as a "PvP'er" holds some excitement for some; but it pales in comparison with proper fights. We've seen it before the "pro world PvP'er" entering into a proper contest getting destroyed, then he can crawl back to his little sandbox pretending that's the "real" thing.
Arenas are a balanced, laddered competition; unlike world PvP it's not a free ride. You can't hide in the crowd, if you don't preform it's you. It can take your pride and step on it, and that hurst more than any gear loss ever will.
1-4, You are wrong, I'm not going to argue with someone who just says "No" without providing any real facts to back up statements..
"Facts", don't make me laugh. You present an opinion piece, you get opinions back. Your statemets 1 through 4 were nonsense so I told you. Not much else to be said about 'em.
Level of play unheard of? Yeah, queueing up for BGs every 15 minutes, all day. What a great level of play. And you know the people participating in those systems did it because it was actually fun and not because of the gearshops, or the titles, or anything like that.. Lol
It was more fun and it required better playing. The gear was a bonus, but make no misstake, people ditched world PvP because world PvP fails. Noone in vanilla did any PvP close to on par with the level of competition in the high end of the current arenas; not even close.
In EQ PvP had meaning, and WoW just made it meaningless.
Haha! Meaning? You can try this, go ask your mum or someone else who doesn't play video games. How much meaning do you think they will attibute it?
"Hey mom! We conquered the CAVES OF DOOM!"
"Oh, that's nice hun, but shouldn't you get out and get some exercise? You're looking so pale."
They are both games, neither is inherently more "meaningful", and if you don't realise this you're just drinking the cool aid. It's amusing, but alas it's just a talking point devoid of acctual meaning.
Pro World PvPer gets destroyed in a contest? Lol. In the best of the best, in EQ, why was it that the people from the FFA PvP servers were usually the winners? Oh, because they are better than the people who played those carebear servers.
The best of the best in EQ. Ah yeah, funny. This "PvP server" bit is amusing, seen it so many times. People trying to hide behind a server tag instead of standing on their own. The arena called out all the "pro's", put up or shut up. No "servers", "guilds", "I used to play".
Arenas arent balanced. What prevents your team from going against someone who has a talent spec that has an advantage vs your own? That is balanced? Or maybe they have better classes vs your own? How do they balance that one? Or their gear might be better?
Then you play better than them and win. Yes, there are minor diffrences in balance; but you can outplay them. It's not perfect, but then nothing ever is and it's head and shoulders above world PvP. If your failing, you can try to blame class and gear and the stars; but deep down you know it's you. Then you have to face up to it.
Arenas are meaningless and boring. Can't hide in the crowd? When you lose Arena it doesn't matter. Big deal. Telling me that people who can't handle penalties are real PvPers? Lol. Those are the same people who would hide on blue servers.
It doesn't matter if you're a scrub with no pride. The kind who apparently needs a death penalty to not bend over at the least sign of adversity. If you're a gamer you play to win, what else do you need? Meaning is a roleplayer notion, death penalties a distraction. There ain't no death penalty that hurts as bad as broken pride, if you had any you'd know.
Edit: Oh and thanks for the flamewar, it's fun!
To my experience, Guild Wars has the best instanced PvP in the MMO business. Coincidentally it is also the best balanced game I've played.
QFT
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
To my experience, Guild Wars has the best instanced PvP in the MMO business. Coincidentally it is also the best balanced game I've played.
QFT
GuildWars had too many instances all over the place. I don't even consider that game an MMORPG.
Town is instanced, zones are instanced.. Reminded me of Diablo 2 more than anything.
And the problem with GW was that the PvP wasn't connected in any way with your server (which consisted of instances).
I didn't really feel immersed in Guildwars because of the instancing, and the game had too much point and click stuff instead of typical MMORPG controls like EQ. First person view, free movement, etc.
Now I will make some concessions, GuildWars WAS more challenging than games like WoW.
Edit: Oh and thanks for the flamewar, it's fun!
Hmm, you are definitely right that World PvP failed in WoW.
But it was only because they put all of their PvE content into instances, which players couldn't fight over. There wasn't ever a reason to fight each other because there was nothing in the World worth fighting for.
WoW is an MMORPG where all of the zones without anything valuable are shared. Anything with valuable things are instanced. So how are you going to make people fight over things that they don't value? Of course World PvP failed in WoW.
Now take a game without instances, EQ, and World PvP was always thriving in EQ, because they didn't instance any of their valuable content.
You might say "Guild X is near zone Y", and your guild + other guilds on your team form a raid to go stop Guild X from raiding zone Y. Can you do that, when your game is instanced? No
When NPCs give loot that make your guild significantly stronger, and NPCs are on 1 week respawn timers, it affects the whole server, permanently. When your guild can no longer put up a fight because they've fallen so far back in terms of gear, how is that not a lasting impact?
1 decision mattering per month? There is a lot of World PvP that goes on, especially if you are looking for it.
Instanced PvP is predictable, so it's not like you are figuring out new ways to PvP. You always will fight certain combinations in 2v2. You'll always be prepared. There is nothing dynamic about it. Other people can't just show up in the middle of your 2v2. It's predictable, there are less decisions than in a World PvP game where the environment is constantly changing.
I'll take the "unbalalance" and real PvP over sugarcoated, fake, and boring instanced PvP systems.
Sure you can respond to enemy presence when a game is instanced. Planetside had 200v200 population caps for their continental battles. You'd notice a base was under attack and react to it. Arathi Basin (WOW) had 15v15 fights. You'd notice a flag was contested and react to it. Same exact thing on a smaller scale.
In both examples, your decisions of whether to react and how many players to send were huge -- they could decide whether you win or lose the scenario. Meaningful decisions. In World PVP? Yeah, you either have enough players online or you don't, so victory is totally outside player control. Not a meaningful decision.
One decision a month refers to the only meaningful decision which will affect the world PVP situation I just described. What controls "do we have enough players online to win?" Guild choice. A very meaningful decision in World PVP games. How often does guild choice happen? A lot less frequently than once a month actually. But this one decision holds the majority of influence over whether you're going to win or lose. Other decisions obviously have some influence, but this one decision matters most.
Is that really an interesting game, to have the majority of your performance dictated by a single choice you might've made over a year ago? Are you really interacting with the game if you have that limited control of your own performance? Well you are, but your interaction certainly isn't particularly meaningful the majority of the time.
Instanced PVP being "predictable" is hardly a downside. Are you suggesting it's fun to have games where you randomly lose half the time for some arbitrary reason? The unpredictability should come from your opponents' group composition and from how they play their characters (and it does), not from some arbitrary game mechanic screwing you over.
Random elements are fine as long as they don't dictate victory. Although typically you want to be sure of the purpose of random elements before introducing them into a game.
(Example: In WOW, random damage helps make incremental gear upgrades meaningful. Without random damage you'd always kill an enemy in exactly x attacks. If he has 100 health and you do 34 damage, it takes 3 swings. If your gear upgrades your damage to 49, it still takes 3 swings -- you haven't seen any increase in performance, despite quite a lot of gear upgrades. Random damage averages this all out, so that each additional point of damage increases the likelihood of killing in 2 swings.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The views like that(yours) are what produce dumb games like Darkfall or Mortal Online instead of games like EVE online.
EDIT: I am pointing at DF and MO being 'dumb' compared to EVE since they are often considered as similar game types despite the trendemous difference in game structure.
Sorry if I'm being dense here, but what he's said exactly describes EVE. You can be attacked by another player at any moment at any place in space.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Same. Darkfall is the only thing that has come close.
Difference is, in DAoC it wasn't about personal loss, in terms of loot, but you lost territory, and the enemy gained benefits from killing you. It was more of a team effort. Your own death wasn't that big a deal, but your whole realm or group dying was a problem. Especially because, due to the debuffs, and travel time, a battle lost actually meant something.
Combine that with keeps, relic raids, and realm points, and many of the dynamics of the overworld FFA PvP are there.
how is DF anywhere close to DAoC when your own race(realm members) can kill you loot you and as long as they dont hit the gank button not suffer any consequence in DF?
Scale of the battles, the sieges, the politics, the pride.
By evidence of numbers of people playing a FFA PvP game, it proves otherwise that people enjoy the OPTION of PvPing when they want.
Whats the big difference between a pvp server, and a ffa game? You can try to kill someone in "their" city in one game, but guards/towers kill you. You can to into the other sides city, but they might be unattackable. Epic.
You can have plenty of world pvp in the pvp realm. Totally random.
I saw someone mentioned the whole "Lol...but in arenaz, you always face a certain lolz comboz lolz." And that's right. In a 2v2 arena, there are only a certain number of combinations. That's just math. But basically, you are saying, that in a ffa event, that just happens to be you and a friend, and me and a friend, wouldn't have the exact same chance of being the same combos? lol what?
Or are you saying the game mechanics and combat system that are completely different, and not reliant on what type of PvP system is used, is different? And even though those mechanics and combat system are not the same, you still can have the exact same sort of 2v2 with the same usual teams, with the same specs? lol.
Would you any say that WoW has a hybrid open area pvp whereby players quest across realms and into shared areas for questing?
FFA PVP with no PvE would be totally awesome. The problemis FFA PVP is always about PVE. That only fosters ganking. Show me a FFA PVP with no PvE that has little to no ganking. EVE is the only game that comes to mind, and that has protected areas.
I don't understand why all FFA PVP games have PvE. So there is someone to gank?
FFA PvP with no PvE = Call of Duty 4
Proper conflict centers around PvE and scarcity of resources. Not mindless PvP like you're suggesting.
FFA PvP does sound really good on paper.
And they way the OP described it, it does sound glamorous and sexy and fun.
The problem though is in how it is implemented.
Every FFA PvP game ends up running into the exact same issues that ends up scaring away a very large portion of players and keeps the FFA PvP game in a niche market - and as such the developers don't have the financial support nor community size to REALLY make a FFA PvP system that is awesome.
The basic idea of a RPG is at its very core opposed to a FFA PvP system -
In a RPG, their general theme is that you start small and grow bigger, more powerful, more epic. The weak become strong, the lowly boy becomes the greatest hero of the land etc. etc. we ALL know the formula. How this translates into video games is that as your character grows in power you seek out stronger and more powerful enemies. This has been the staple of the RPG genre and the foundation of the MMORPG genre for decades. You have to "get stronger" to tackle the evils which in the beginning of the game seem so insurmountable.
In such a RPG, the monsters - the real big bad guys don't seek you out and kill you when you are weak and small. They are stupid. Often times they have the chance, but they let you live or you escape to get stronger and fight them later etc. We ALL know how this goes too. In a MMORPG the really big and scary monsters hiding in the high level zones and the deepest darkest dungeons do NOT go out into the starter newbie areas of the game and start slaughtering all the players.
Do you know why not? It wouldn't be any fun for the vast majority of gamers. Just imagine your favorite MMORPG. Now imagine where you started and with what. Starter noob gear, weapons, armor, ships, whatever it is. Very few abilities, no special weapons, very low skill levels....
Now imagine every time you logged into the game, the big bad-ass monsters from the high-end zones/areas were rampaging through the newbie area you start in and slaughtering everything. A few players might have the patience and perseverance to tough it out and make it out alive, maybe eventually growing strong enough to have a shot at defeating those big bad-ass monsters, but an incredibly large percentage of players would simply say "this is stupid, I have no chance what so ever. I can understand something being difficult, and challenges to overcome, but having absolutely zero chance is just simply not fun and terrible game design."
You can probably see now how this relates to FFA PvP.
The veteran players are the big bad-ass monsters that come in and ruin everyone's day. But even the NPC monsters behave by a set of rules - they run on scripts. Players on the other hand have only the restrictions the game imposes on them, the rest is left up to their potentially cruel and maniacal imaginations.
This is why they put in things like newbie protection, secure space, and the likes. By including these things, you no longer have a true FFA PvP game, but you have a game that a lot more players are going to enjoy and be able to get into.
FFA PvP only really makes sense when all players are on equal footing. I think we all know that in RPG's things are rarely equal. If it's not levels or skill levels it's gear and stats. If it's not those things it's that one side simply has more players.
Good PvP systems like DAOC RvR or UO's faction warfare had restrictions in place. UO controlled the populations of the factions to keep things fairly even, or at least tried to. DAOC you had to be a certain level to start participating in the RvR, and you were guaranteed not only enemies but friends and allies of your own realm or faction.
Now things have gone too far towards the friendly side. Some of the biggest mistakes have been made - factional PvP games with only two factions, too great of dependence on gear and levels and stats over skill and coordination...
So I counter your statement OP-
Balanced, well designed and thought out Realm versus Realm and/or Factional PvP > FFA PvP
Throw in things like guilds/clans going to war with each other... pretty much you have to give players choice - including the choice to NOT participate because otherwise they will choose to not participate... by NOT playing the game.
Hard to make a better game and keep a good game going without players playing it.
FFA PVP is my preferred gaming style, but it is merely my preference, for many of the reasons listed by the OP.
But, that doesn't make it better.
Someone else will prefer the challenge of mastering "equal" combat, which is what instanced arena's provide. I don't care for it, but again, its not wrong to like it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FFA PvP with no PvE would be boring. What would you do other than kill each other? Why would you even fight each other without there being stuff to fight over?
PvE and PvP should be integrated once again. Not separate like in WoW with its instancing of everything.
Endgame PvE on PvP server encourages endgame PvP between large guilds/teams.
Instanced PvP is predictable and boring. In the world you might encounter class combinations that wouldnt show up in the arena, just because they happened to be in the same area. For instance, you might get into a PvP fight with 2 warriors, or 2 clerics. Would you ever encounter that in an Arena? Not usually.
Not to mention that anyone can show up at any time, changing how you play.
Once you start an arena, you know who you are fighting against, and nothing can change how you will play. Once you know their builds you know how to play. World PvP, you are always watching for others who might jump in.
As I've said, Instanced PvP is static and boring and World PvP is dynamic and interesting.
People enjoy WoW's PvP system? I know I didn't. It was just a means to farm gear, that is all they cared about. Repetitive, boring, meaningless, and totally unconnected to your own World/Server. Take out the gearshops and you will see how meaningful WoW PvP is.
Oh, another person who wants a "Balanced" MMORPG.
You sound like you are arguing against any possible situation that can be unbalanced. So, according to you, a level 1 should be just as strong as a level 60 in PvP. Why don't they implement that feature too? After all, you want it to be balanced. Maybe make everyone the same class, the same level, and give everyone the same gear too.
I don't get why people think that PvP should always occur between people who are the same levels, with the same gear. If you like that, you probably belong on a PvE server, where you can fight people in certain zones.
If PvP has restrictions then it is boring and sugarcoated.
Also, you act like people who are low level have no protection against high levels. Do you think in FFA PvP MMORPGs that high levels just hang around newbie zones to kill people all day? Some people do, but then you can always get your own factions to show up and get rid of that person. Even in an FFA PvP game, some other high level would generally dislike that player who is PKing, and would show up just to take him out.
So they do have protection, they need to communicate, you know.. Or maybe not... I guess solo play anti-social games like WoW you don't need to talk to other players.
Because I can gank j00 with 27 of my high-level guildmates all day long and there's absolutely nothing that you can do about it 'cos u r noob and i r l33t.
Yeah, I'll pass thanks. Instanced all the way.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I have played a couple games with open pvp.
First Asherons Call,
no place on that map was safe, not even towns. huge battles for hunting spots and towns. people allways complain about being ganked and what not, but in these type of games the server will police itself. guilds form to protect others, allies form to take down bigger guilds. its chaos and its so much fun, every person you meet could be your next victum or a friend to hunt with and watch each others back.
2nd one i played was AoC,
had tons of fun when it first came out. the zones were populated and it there was tons of pvp happening over hunting spots and quests areas, only bad part was there wasnt a real death penalty and no looting, plus the citys were safe zones wich made it kind of lame. population died and nothing to do at max level but stand around and duel. so that game died to me.
Most people who have tried FFA pvp and say omg leet gankers or what ever are the same people who went in there died a few times and quit without really giveing it a chance. FFA PVP servers can be the most fun you have ever had in a game if you arnt scared to put in the time it takes to meet people and level up. sure there will be times you get desroyed 10 on 1 and the big group will talk trash or what ever, but its not hard to just ignore them. they want you to respond dont give them the satisfaction. come back with friends and roll them right back.
Because I can gank j00 with 27 of my high-level guildmates all day long and there's absolutely nothing that you can do about it 'cos u r noob and i r l33t.
Yeah, I'll pass thanks. Instanced all the way.
because that is how people who play FFA PvPs spend all of their time, 27v1ing people all day. Because that is really worth their time.
The only people criticizing FFA PvP are people who've never played them. Making up unrealistic scenarios that never have occurred in FFA PvP MMORPGs.
And btw that kind of attitude, "u r noob" is more present in WoW than in games with FFA PvP. People in FFA PvP know when to not talk trash, because they don't have Mommy Blizzard protecting them from the consequences of trash talk. Talk trash in a FFA PvP MMORPG and you will have to PvP, unlike WoW where you can sit in your safe zones all day trash talking.