Take an individual, give them anonymity, and give them an audience. Watch intellectual quotients divebomb.
It's freedom of expression where attention is gained without maintaining hold on repercussion.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
So what do you think? Does hate speech ruin our online experience, or is it just part of the online world?
First, being raised free has taught me that there is only one type of speech: FREE. Hate speech doesnt exist. That is some made up nonsense so that someone could become a member in a 'protected class'. That has created an ever growing list of 'protected classes'. The 'nanny state'rs' have lined up to get their rules applied to everyone else. The only time that I see race, gender(aside from a beautiful woman), sexual preference, vegetarians, political persuasion, religious belief, or any other personal characteristic besides human is when that person feels the need to make it a point of recognition. You do not need oppressive laws to 'protect' you from speech. Stand up! Stand with me and the MAJORITY of others.
You sound like a right wing conservative. Are you talking about your own convictions or do you stand for some majority. I am not sure where your coming from. I will assume that you speak for yourself and leave it at that. To respond to some points....
NO one wants to be a protected class...they are protected because of the atrocities inflicted upon them thruout history. If you dont want protected classes, talk to the oppressors about that subject. Their oppressions has CREATED the protected classes, not the other way around. As far as oppressive laws protecting us from speech, I do not see a gaming company protecting its interest (ie: limiting the amount of subs it loses due to Hate speech running rampant) as enacting oppressive laws. Stop looking at this in terms of gaming, as some moral ground. They dont want it because they are afraid of losing business. On a personal level everyone has their own opinion on whats hate speech and how much of it they can tolerate. And no I wont be "standing with you". The Tea party is THAT way>>>>
Most of us dont care if you're gay! We dont care if you're black!. We do no care if you're religious(a prayer for me is appreciated, thank you, and bless you)! You're not any different than I am. You deserve no special privilages. We all bleed. We all breathe oxygen. I believe we're all born equal, but it ends there. Equality gets you mediocrity. Life is unfair. Together we forge ahead.
Wrong. Many people DO IN FACT CARE if your gay/Black/female/ etc. et al. Thats where you are dead wrong. Personal prejudices, racism and discrimmination is rampant in American culture. To pretend it doesnt exist is equivilent to being an ostrich and sticking your head in the sand.
Wise up! You're a human being. You matter to us for that fact, and that fact alone!! Put the special intrest BS to the side and stand together. I honestly dont think people realize how we've let these 'protections' degrade us. Anyone honestly think we'd have an Octomom if society still shunned that type of incorrigible behavior? No way.
If you were anything other than a white male saying this perhaps it would get me thinking.....
What has been destroyed by this?
Simple. Personal awareness and accountability. I want others to know me for my actions. Good or bad. I do not want people to know me as the guy who has sex with women. The white guy. The american(although very proud of it). These things do not define who I am. My kindness does. My ability to declare my own sin infront of others does. My thoughtfulness when the reality hits that I am not the only one with problems. My best foot forward does.
Assuming laws destroy personal awareness and accountibility is nonsense. They in fact remind us of it. Not everyone has the "best foot" forward. Some people are stupid, racist, ignorant and need to be kept in check. Laws do that. Punishment does that. The threat of retribution does that. Sorry, but your speaking a bunch of nonsense here. Some individuals arent fit to be around or live with, these individuals need to be kept on a leash. Such has been the case with mankind since the beginning of time.
If I make mistakes, I police myself. I constantly reach out to others if I can help them. I do not need anyone to force me to. Instead of engaging the offensive people, simply inform the innocent how to move on. Stand with the innocent. Its not necessary to accost the individual/s with whom you/others feel hurt by. This is about speech not violence, that I could elaborate on, but its not the same discussion.
Good for you. Not everyone "polices themselves".
With regards to games. Every game I have ever played online has had safegaurds in place. Unfortunately the law requires it to protect the innocent, instead of the other humans standing with the innocent, and making these issues drop significantly in occurance.
What problems are solved by handing the incident off to someone else to control? None. I submit it actually allows the problem to persist without real meaningful resolution. Sometimes inflames the situation altogether.
I dont think anyone is looking for "meaningful resolution." A racist that belives that Hitler should have "won" isnt being redeemed anytime soon. Onces a klansman always a klansman....Its about not having to be subjected to their hate. Its really as simple as that.
It is our responsibility to handle this situation, not the law. We are given the tools to seriously hinder individuals from interacting with our community. Its called an Ignore, Block, or Mute. Inform your friends and others in your community on what actions to take against the offenders. These actions reduce and likely removes the possibility of ever crossing their path again. When you retaliate or attempt to accost others it only exacerbates the proplem. I've never been verbally threatened, cursed at, or even attacked personally through speech that has ever made me think that I needed to have another human beings speech controlled by the law or other entitiy. NEVER!
So lets have a race war and anarchy on the internet.
I know thats not enough for some of you. These people who hurt your feelings with a 'bad' word should be removed from all games forever and ever and ever.
Right?
Wrong! Have you made a mistake? I bet you have. I bet you've made a few mistakes. I bet you've hurt someones feelings(accidentally or purposely). Are you doomed to isolation for the rest of your life? Are your freedoms taken? Likely not.
Stop exaggerating.
My point is again, that it is our responsibility to take action appropriately with the tools given, that hold those offenders accountable by limiting the community involvement that they have. When those people realize the impact it has had on their gaming, and moreso their lives socially, it allows them the chance to redeem themselves and return to the community and/or another community and function appropriately in society at large.
As much as it should not be needed: This is my opinion in detail on the topic, thnks for reading and I welcome any comments, in favor or opposed.
yadda yadda yadda, you get my point. Laws are there for a reason and its too keep knuckleheads in check. Without law there is chaos. Gaming companies are interested in making money not chaos. Stop taking this personally and as an affront on your ideals.
Exactly. Well put and to the point.
What many of you who support this behavior don't understand is that the time of a law enforced internet is not far away and the more of this type of abuse, which at times leads to very real violence, that occurs the closer that time comes. We have laws to control people who can't seem to be able to control themselves and can't see beyond their own noses to understand the ramifications of the things they do.
This is incredible. Psuedo intellectuals attempting to justify censorship. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU NUTCASES?
You don't like it? Don't use it. The internet is not real life. You can turn it off at any time. You can find a server that have 0 tolerance for freedom of speech. Buy a freaking computer if you want a censored internet. There are plenty of programs that take the fun out of it you damn killjoys.
I was having a conversation with a co-worker of mine about gaming. Now, under normal circumstances, this wouldn't matter, but for the sake of the topic, he happens to be gay. I got curious about how "gay" is used a a perjorative and if it offended him. He rolled his eyes, said "No, I use it all the time the same way." He then followed up with what has become my phrase of the week: "Some people just need to wipe their pussy and get over themselves."
Your co-worker is now officially my favorite person.
Edit: "Mine too, by the way." -My wife
Mine too!
This so called "Co worker" is probably full of it or a product of your imagination for the sake of this thread discussion. Living in NYC, knowing several gay persons and have two BFF that are gay ("and born that way" as they would say) I beleive they would beg to differ. When the whole "Thats Ghey!" launched on the internet several years ago (and into the rl) I did ask them about it and yes they did inform me that they found the term, when used excessively, offensive. Are they overly sensitive? Hell no. THey live in a society that stereotypes gays in media all the time (subtlely and not so subtlely) so they definitely have thick skins. But to hear it every other sentence in the way it is/was being used in online gaming? No, I dont think anyone would want to hear a derogative of their race/gender/religious belief/sexual orientation in that way. Would any of you care to hear White Trash, Trailer Park Trash or H-----y within every sentence night after night? Maybe you wouldnt mind but come tell me after you have experienced that if you feel the same. And being that alot of these games are still dominated by the demographic that is concurrent to those derogatives, you probably wont. It seems saying the derogatives of OTHER demographics is the thing we need to "wipe our P----sies" and get over.
Ah, so what you're saying is "My gay friends are more valid than your gay friends." Doesn't really matter. I've no need to prove the existence of the guy since he probably doesn't care one way or another whether you exist. What this does illustrate is that people have the ultimate power of what they allow to affect them.
As a white male, (which apparantly defaults to "racist homophobe"), I laugh at all the stereotypes. I get called "Cracka" by black friends all the time. It's funny. Redneck white trash? Hell, I make fun of them too, and I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm also overweight and hear the same old fat jokes. Doesn't phase me at all. I think the displays of ignorance are an amusing and colorful aspect of life. Sure, if it leads to violence, there are ways to deal with it, but the day I empower those who use mere words to affect me in any way is the day I become as much of a loser as the idiots talking the trash. Let them talk. Ignore, Mute, Block, etc. are ubiquitous online. As for the real world, pointing and laughing are amazingly disarming.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
First, being raised free has taught me that there is only one type of speech: FREE. Hate speech doesnt exist. That is some made up nonsense so that someone could become a member in a 'protected class'. That has created an ever growing list of 'protected classes'. The 'nanny state'rs' have lined up to get their rules applied to everyone else. The only time that I see race, gender(aside from a beautiful woman), sexual preference, vegetarians, political persuasion, religious belief, or any other personal characteristic besides human is when that person feels the need to make it a point of recognition. You do not need oppressive laws to 'protect' you from speech. Stand up! Stand with me and the MAJORITY of others.
You sound like a right wing conservative. Are you talking about your own convictions or do you stand for some majority. I am not sure where your coming from. I will assume that you speak for yourself and leave it at that. To respond to some points....
NO one wants to be a protected class...they are protected because of the atrocities inflicted upon them thruout history. If you dont want protected classes, talk to the oppressors about that subject. Their oppressions has CREATED the protected classes, not the other way around. As far as oppressive laws protecting us from speech, I do not see a gaming company protecting its interest (ie: limiting the amount of subs it loses due to Hate speech running rampant) as enacting oppressive laws. Stop looking at this in terms of gaming, as some moral ground. They dont want it because they are afraid of losing business. On a personal level everyone has their own opinion on whats hate speech and how much of it they can tolerate. And no I wont be "standing with you". The Tea party is THAT way>>>>
Thanks for placing a label on me. It helps prove my points to open minded and reasonable individuals easier. You obviously are part of the problem, not the solution. I analyze issues from a reality perspective first, not historically. I do not stand for a majority, but with THE majority. The majority of humans are not racist, sexist, homophobic, or lunatics(etc.). There are more of us than are of them. Thats where I am coming from.
I disagree. Im not saying you're wrong entirely, but I do think many people DO want to be a protected class. The benefits and politically correct cover allows those people to feel ENTITLED. Once those people are challenged in life by any adversity, they instantly pull the entitlement card. They apply no responsibility to themselves, yet blame a fictitious hurdle based on their supposed 'protected' class. Those challenges are apparent very recently in the supreme court case for the New Haven, Conn. firefighters. Discrimmination is one thing. An entirely different thing is Diversity and Recognition just for the sake of "fairness" and "eqaulity". Life is not a game of chess. Its likely from your pathetic attempt to debate and exchange ideas that im playing with more pieces than you.
Anytime a freedom is regulated by law, it is oppression. I didnt address gaming until several paragraphs later, not clear what your point is. I value your opinion on 'hate speech'. You need a crutch for lifes challenges. I wouldnt be proud of that reliance on a governing body, but its not something to be ashamed of either. I also believe that if society took an active role in combating its problems instead of leaving it up to a government or entitiy that we'd be alot farther beyond these isolated problems. The gaming companies wouldnt need to enact and enforce silly speech regulation, the community would squash and purge the problem. The only lost subscriptions would be those who are isolated from said community, until they clean up their act.
Most of us dont care if you're gay! We dont care if you're black!. We do no care if you're religious(a prayer for me is appreciated, thank you, and bless you)! You're not any different than I am. You deserve no special privilages. We all bleed. We all breathe oxygen. I believe we're all born equal, but it ends there. Equality gets you mediocrity. Life is unfair. Together we forge ahead.
Wrong. Many people DO IN FACT CARE if your gay/Black/female/ etc. et al. Thats where you are dead wrong. Personal prejudices, racism and discrimmination is rampant in American culture. To pretend it doesnt exist is equivilent to being an ostrich and sticking your head in the sand.
I do not believe I am wrong. I said most, not all. I know the truth, and I said nothing to dispute that. The facts support the viewpoint that those people are losing the discussion. They arent growing in numbers. You're gonna lay down for them? You're gonna help them get their message out by continuing the debate with them? Im not. This discussion is about SPEECH. Their words only contain power because of folks like you. Once the bully is ignored, they wilt and falter at completing their goal. Making you FEEL bad. Thats it. Make clear to me how they prevent you from moving on? I know it might be rough for some to hear, but any person who lets another person/s hurt your feelings by words is a LOSER. You lost, they won.
It is not rampant in american culture. Ive been all across this great country and it is anything but rampant. Id say isolated, if not minimal. Does it exist? Yes. Do I like that fact? No. Ive spent time in countless communities, neighborhoods, school districts, business exchanges, and family congregations. The americans I know arent interested in letting those fringe loons succeed by getting their message out and growing their influence. If this country were rampantly discrimminatory we'd not be the beacon of hope around the world. We've mended our fences and its time to stop propagating the delusion that were so hateful. Disgraceful.
Wise up! You're a human being. You matter to us for that fact, and that fact alone!! Put the special intrest BS to the side and stand together. I honestly dont think people realize how we've let these 'protections' degrade us. Anyone honestly think we'd have an Octomom if society still shunned that type of incorrigible behavior? No way.
If you were anything other than a white male saying this perhaps it would get me thinking.....
What has been destroyed by this?
Simple. Personal awareness and accountability. I want others to know me for my actions. Good or bad. I do not want people to know me as the guy who has sex with women. The white guy. The american(although very proud of it). These things do not define who I am. My kindness does. My ability to declare my own sin infront of others does. My thoughtfulness when the reality hits that I am not the only one with problems. My best foot forward does.
Assuming laws destroy personal awareness and accountibility is nonsense. They in fact remind us of it. Not everyone has the "best foot" forward. Some people are stupid, racist, ignorant and need to be kept in check. Laws do that. Punishment does that. The threat of retribution does that. Sorry, but your speaking a bunch of nonsense here. Some individuals arent fit to be around or live with, these individuals need to be kept on a leash. Such has been the case with mankind since the beginning of time.
Take off the racial glasses. That is an incredibly silly statement. Everything I said was full of respect and should do absolutely nothing but make you think. I am a white male. I will continue to be part of the solution. I treat everyone with respect, first. My actions will have an effect on reasonable people. To do the right thing is always harder than the wrong thing. That right action is contagious. Hell even in games its usually always easier to be evil. Still fun, dont get me wrong.
Sure its been around since the beginning of time. In the past and in less and less instances today it has/is being handled by society at large. I beg your pardon, but it is not nonsense. You may disagree, but nonsense is a negligent response. Again you are framing yourself as a person who is beyond reasonable debate and understanding that there could be and IS another viewpoint beyond your own. I wouldnt want to label you, but your remarks reek of elitism. Silencing the participants does nothing beneficial to the discussion.
Exactly. They do remind us of a time that many mistakes were made, but we've since made an immense impact for the better on those days. We dont need a reminder, nobody has forgotten, but the reasonable people have forgiven. It again propels individuals to stay under that cover of protection. Its alot easier to identify the problem, quite another to work on solving it. You're right, some people are ignorant. Some of those people are dangerous. That is a difference again between speech and physical violence.
Once you assault someone physically, its over. You're going down and hopefully to jail, until you get your act straight. If you're a racist idiot, than you're going down for a long time and our system handles that very well. I can agree that speech inciting violence is violence. No question. Those people do need to be kept in check and I think that our system handles that well also. Yelling fire in a theatre, specific threats of bodily harm, bomb threats and all nature of that very specific speech is and should be punishable. Me calling you a whore, slut, skank, the N word, homo, and all the words we know is pathetic. It doesnt belong, but its not hate speech. Its not pleasant, but its not inciting any violence. None.
I was having a conversation with a co-worker of mine about gaming. Now, under normal circumstances, this wouldn't matter, but for the sake of the topic, he happens to be gay. I got curious about how "gay" is used a a perjorative and if it offended him. He rolled his eyes, said "No, I use it all the time the same way." He then followed up with what has become my phrase of the week: "Some people just need to wipe their pussy and get over themselves."
Your co-worker is now officially my favorite person.
Edit: "Mine too, by the way." -My wife
Mine too!
This so called "Co worker" is probably full of it or a product of your imagination for the sake of this thread discussion. Living in NYC, knowing several gay persons and have two BFF that are gay ("and born that way" as they would say) I beleive they would beg to differ. When the whole "Thats Ghey!" launched on the internet several years ago (and into the rl) I did ask them about it and yes they did inform me that they found the term, when used excessively, offensive. Are they overly sensitive? Hell no. THey live in a society that stereotypes gays in media all the time (subtlely and not so subtlely) so they definitely have thick skins. But to hear it every other sentence in the way it is/was being used in online gaming? No, I dont think anyone would want to hear a derogative of their race/gender/religious belief/sexual orientation in that way. Would any of you care to hear White Trash, Trailer Park Trash or H-----y within every sentence night after night? Maybe you wouldnt mind but come tell me after you have experienced that if you feel the same. And being that alot of these games are still dominated by the demographic that is concurrent to those derogatives, you probably wont. It seems saying the derogatives of OTHER demographics is the thing we need to "wipe our P----sies" and get over.
Ah, so what you're saying is "My gay friends are more valid than your gay friends." Doesn't really matter. I've no need to prove the existence of the guy since he probably doesn't care one way or another whether you exist. What this does illustrate is that people have the ultimate power of what they allow to affect them.
As a white male, (which apparantly defaults to "racist homophobe"), I laugh at all the stereotypes. I get called "Cracka" by black friends all the time. It's funny. Redneck white trash? Hell, I make fun of them too, and I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm also overweight and hear the same old fat jokes. Doesn't phase me at all. I think the displays of ignorance are an amusing and colorful aspect of life. Sure, if it leads to violence, there are ways to deal with it, but the day I empower those who use mere words to affect me in any way is the day I become as much of a loser as the idiots talking the trash. Let them talk. Ignore, Mute, Block, etc. are ubiquitous online. As for the real world, pointing and laughing are amazingly disarming.
There is a difference what is being said amongst friends and what is being said to total strangers. My African friends regularly call me Whitey or Mazungo or inquire as to wheter my igloo has any sort of heating apparatus and I take no offense, and i regularly call them junglecreatures, desertdwellers and ask them to smile in dark rooms so that i can see them. However, we all know this completely unacceptable outside our clique. Though our right to free speech does not disallow us to do this, our common courtesy, manners, and upbringing has tought us better than to engage in language which may be offensive to others.
Freedom of speech is a right and a priveledge that needs to be exercised in a manner which does not needlessly offend anyone. Using racial, sexual, political, or religious slurs is not using your freedom, but rather abusing it.
If I make mistakes, I police myself. I constantly reach out to others if I can help them. I do not need anyone to force me to. Instead of engaging the offensive people, simply inform the innocent how to move on. Stand with the innocent. Its not necessary to accost the individual/s with whom you/others feel hurt by. This is about speech not violence, that I could elaborate on, but its not the same discussion.
Good for you. Not everyone "polices themselves".
With regards to games. Every game I have ever played online has had safegaurds in place. Unfortunately the law requires it to protect the innocent, instead of the other humans standing with the innocent, and making these issues drop significantly in occurance.
What problems are solved by handing the incident off to someone else to control? None. I submit it actually allows the problem to persist without real meaningful resolution. Sometimes inflames the situation altogether.
I dont think anyone is looking for "meaningful resolution." A racist that belives that Hitler should have "won" isnt being redeemed anytime soon. Onces a klansman always a klansman....Its about not having to be subjected to their hate. Its really as simple as that.
Ive laid out in very substantive terms the road we've been on that has lead us away from more people following this criteria. We can get back to it. Its personal responsibility. Call it whatever you like, its ethical self reliance. Thanks, at least you have one fair thing to say.
That is what the article brings up for discussion. A meaningful resolution. That resolution is to have less occurances of unpleasant speech. How to reach that resolution is what is up for debate. As well as why is it we find ourselves at this crossroads. It has increased enough that it is being discussed. Its a pretty clear cut debate on Silencing speech vs. Free speech. I dislike(hate?) the loons as much as you do, I think. Id like them to stop, but to display how they are winning by shutting down speech is not a victory for those against the lunatics. It only gets worse as more people are reluctant to handle the problem over slapping a silencer on it. Lets deal with our problems. What comes next? There is always a next.
I wouldnt qualify a Hitler fanatic to be a racist. A fanatic of that type is a deranged individual. I disagree vehemently with you about catagorizing someone an eternal 'klansman'. I believe in retribution, and I pray for you, that someday you do not find yourself in a situation of innocence of wrong doing, or remorseful/repentant for greivous mistakes, after having completed steps for forgiveness and acceptance only to be denied by someone with your inability to exonerate anothers character.
As far as subjection to hate, im sorry. If someone is being criminally harassed there are/were laws already on the books for that. Someone who is of a 'protected class' already has/had protection from harassment. Im well aware of the current status. If it doesnt rise to harassment, than it is a reality that mother isnt going to beat the bogeyman with a nightlight.
It is our responsibility to handle this situation, not the law. We are given the tools to seriously hinder individuals from interacting with our community. Its called an Ignore, Block, or Mute. Inform your friends and others in your community on what actions to take against the offenders. These actions reduce and likely removes the possibility of ever crossing their path again. When you retaliate or attempt to accost others it only exacerbates the proplem. I've never been verbally threatened, cursed at, or even attacked personally through speech that has ever made me think that I needed to have another human beings speech controlled by the law or other entitiy. NEVER!
So lets have a race war and anarchy on the internet.
I know thats not enough for some of you. These people who hurt your feelings with a 'bad' word should be removed from all games forever and ever and ever.
Right?
Wrong! Have you made a mistake? I bet you have. I bet you've made a few mistakes. I bet you've hurt someones feelings(accidentally or purposely). Are you doomed to isolation for the rest of your life? Are your freedoms taken? Likely not.
Stop exaggerating.
See above, ex. race war.... I got carried away, but I read some of the posts in this thread. I admit that nobody actually made that exact point, but many werent far off. I apologize. It hardly derailed my point.
My point is again, that it is our responsibility to take action appropriately with the tools given, that hold those offenders accountable by limiting the community involvement that they have. When those people realize the impact it has had on their gaming, and moreso their lives socially, it allows them the chance to redeem themselves and return to the community and/or another community and function appropriately in society at large.
As much as it should not be needed: This is my opinion in detail on the topic, thnks for reading and I welcome any comments, in favor or opposed.
yadda yadda yadda, you get my point. Laws are there for a reason and its too keep knuckleheads in check. Without law there is chaos. Gaming companies are interested in making money not chaos. Stop taking this personally and as an affront on your ideals.
This statement represents nothing even remotely close to what statement/s being made. This is another tactic to try and influence me with intimidation and utter chaos theory to shut me up and discredit my statement. Reasonable people debate with points and facts. This does neither. Nor does it frame a valid or legitimate arguement.
Thanks again for helping solve the problem, beyond just taking away someone elses freedom. Laws do keep those types in check, we agree. I think gaming companies would be far better off if society at large wielded our power to unite effectively. I did nothing to represent an affront on my ideals was achieved. Your broad opinion of slap another entitlement on it approach is not going to reach solution. You actually keep those groups down even further by taking away their ability to emerge legitimately and make it on their own like the rest of society has. Including members that could apply to those groups, but choose to rise above the faux protection(welfare). Id never hold it against someone negatively who abused those 'protections', but id be far more congratulatory towards someone who didnt.
I find it funny that this is just now garnering attention. I remember years ago playing online when the xbox first came out and people would just say the most hateful things to their teammates that they percieved as black, jewish, etc... It definately made me not want to play on xbox live ever again. I play games for fun, not to listen to people verbally attack each other over their culture, race, etc... If I want drama I will watch law and order.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
It is our responsibility to handle this situation, not the law. We are given the tools to seriously hinder individuals from interacting with our community. Its called an Ignore, Block, or Mute. Inform your friends and others in your community on what actions to take against the offenders. These actions reduce and likely removes the possibility of ever crossing their path again. When you retaliate or attempt to accost others it only exacerbates the proplem. I've never been verbally threatened, cursed at, or even attacked personally through speech that has ever made me think that I needed to have another human beings speech controlled by the law or other entitiy. NEVER!
So lets have a race war and anarchy on the internet.
I know thats not enough for some of you. These people who hurt your feelings with a 'bad' word should be removed from all games forever and ever and ever.
Right?
Wrong! Have you made a mistake? I bet you have. I bet you've made a few mistakes. I bet you've hurt someones feelings(accidentally or purposely). Are you doomed to isolation for the rest of your life? Are your freedoms taken? Likely not.
Stop exaggerating.
See above, ex. race war.... I got carried away, but I read some of the posts in this thread. I admit that nobody actually made that exact point, but many werent far off. I apologize. It hardly derailed my point.
My point is again, that it is our responsibility to take action appropriately with the tools given, that hold those offenders accountable by limiting the community involvement that they have. When those people realize the impact it has had on their gaming, and moreso their lives socially, it allows them the chance to redeem themselves and return to the community and/or another community and function appropriately in society at large.
As much as it should not be needed: This is my opinion in detail on the topic, thnks for reading and I welcome any comments, in favor or opposed.
yadda yadda yadda, you get my point. Laws are there for a reason and its too keep knuckleheads in check. Without law there is chaos. Gaming companies are interested in making money not chaos. Stop taking this personally and as an affront on your ideals.
This statement represents nothing even remotely close to what statement/s being made. This is another tactic to try and influence me with intimidation and utter chaos theory to shut me up and discredit my statement. Reasonable people debate with points and facts. This does neither. Nor does it frame a valid or legitimate arguement.
Thanks again for helping solve the problem, beyond just taking away someone elses freedom. Laws do keep those types in check, we agree. I think gaming companies would be far better off if society at large wielded our power to unite effectively. I did nothing to represent an affront on my ideals was achieved. Your broad opinion of slap another entitlement on it approach is not going to reach solution. You actually keep those groups down even further by taking away their ability to emerge legitimately and make it on their own like the rest of society has. Including members that could apply to those groups, but choose to rise above the faux protection(welfare). Id never hold it against someone negatively who abused those 'protections', but id be far more congratulatory towards someone who didnt.
Demonshank please remember that LESS is sometimes MORE. This wall of text or rather your personal theories and ideals says nothing new and your not telling us anything we havent already heard from the right wing about personal liberties being taken away. I think the whole movement is tripe and coverup for the racist ideals of racists persons. Your obviously very upset with the whole "protected class" issue and thats really too bad but coming from a white male its rather amusing. I've made my comment on that and I will leave it at that, because thats not what this thread is about. Its about Hate speech corroding the online video game experience, and obviously, whether people like you like it or not, for many it does. As a result, gaming companies are taking action. If you dont like it, dont play the games that will limit your use of racial slurs or derogatives.
If I have a spare 10 hours Ill respond to some of the other BS you posted but I dont have the time tonight. Sounds like alot of "angry white male" angst and frankly I could care less about it. Im not here to be the punching bag to your fustrations.
I fear i can't respond the way it needs to be adressed since this forum enjoys just the kind of moderation your kind wishes for.
Good, because if you cant express yourself intelligently and in such a way that doesnt warrant moderation, your best bet is to not say anything. And I'll give you kudos for recognizing that.
Xbox live ingame chat is a cesspool. Sometimes it's very depressing listening to these people. Other times I find it amusing. There are also a lot of death threats and stuff in addition to the profanity and hate speech. There's not much you can do about it that I have seen.
I was having a conversation with a co-worker of mine about gaming. Now, under normal circumstances, this wouldn't matter, but for the sake of the topic, he happens to be gay. I got curious about how "gay" is used a a perjorative and if it offended him. He rolled his eyes, said "No, I use it all the time the same way." He then followed up with what has become my phrase of the week: "Some people just need to wipe their pussy and get over themselves."
Your co-worker is now officially my favorite person.
Edit: "Mine too, by the way." -My wife
Mine too!
This so called "Co worker" is probably full of it or a product of your imagination for the sake of this thread discussion. Living in NYC, knowing several gay persons and have two BFF that are gay ("and born that way" as they would say) I beleive they would beg to differ. When the whole "Thats Ghey!" launched on the internet several years ago (and into the rl) I did ask them about it and yes they did inform me that they found the term, when used excessively, offensive. Are they overly sensitive? Hell no. THey live in a society that stereotypes gays in media all the time (subtlely and not so subtlely) so they definitely have thick skins. But to hear it every other sentence in the way it is/was being used in online gaming? No, I dont think anyone would want to hear a derogative of their race/gender/religious belief/sexual orientation in that way. Would any of you care to hear White Trash, Trailer Park Trash or H-----y within every sentence night after night? Maybe you wouldnt mind but come tell me after you have experienced that if you feel the same. And being that alot of these games are still dominated by the demographic that is concurrent to those derogatives, you probably wont. It seems saying the derogatives of OTHER demographics is the thing we need to "wipe our P----sies" and get over.
Ah, so what you're saying is "My gay friends are more valid than your gay friends." Doesn't really matter. I've no need to prove the existence of the guy since he probably doesn't care one way or another whether you exist. What this does illustrate is that people have the ultimate power of what they allow to affect them.
As a white male, (which apparantly defaults to "racist homophobe"), I laugh at all the stereotypes. I get called "Cracka" by black friends all the time. It's funny. Redneck white trash? Hell, I make fun of them too, and I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm also overweight and hear the same old fat jokes. Doesn't phase me at all. I think the displays of ignorance are an amusing and colorful aspect of life. Sure, if it leads to violence, there are ways to deal with it, but the day I empower those who use mere words to affect me in any way is the day I become as much of a loser as the idiots talking the trash. Let them talk. Ignore, Mute, Block, etc. are ubiquitous online. As for the real world, pointing and laughing are amazingly disarming.
There is a difference what is being said amongst friends and what is being said to total strangers. My African friends regularly call me Whitey or Mazungo or inquire as to wheter my igloo has any sort of heating apparatus and I take no offense, and i regularly call them junglecreatures, desertdwellers and ask them to smile in dark rooms so that i can see them. However, we all know this completely unacceptable outside our clique. Though our right to free speech does not disallow us to do this, our common courtesy, manners, and upbringing has tought us better than to engage in language which may be offensive to others.
I never said using offensive language wasn't bad. On the contrary, but the last sentence in the above paragraph makes a valid point. It's all in the individual. Things like common courtesy and manners should not be legislated in an official capacity, short of a company's freedom and right to enforce their terms of use. I'm all for that, in fact. What I'm against is those who take it to a legislative level-- those who say "There oughtta be a law against..." and mean it.
Freedom of speech is a right and a priveledge that needs to be exercised in a manner which does not needlessly offend anyone. Using racial, sexual, political, or religious slurs is not using your freedom, but rather abusing it.
I'll frame this in the context of the United States and our Constitution, since it's where I refer to when it comes to rights of the people. Apologies to those outside of the US, but I can only speak from a base I know. The Constitution prescribes many rights in the Bill of Rights, but the one thing it doesn't do is declare a right to not be offended. In fact, one could argue that Federal Hate Speech laws are unconstitutional (although State laws against same are not, per Amendment10).
I would argue that using slurs is using that freedom. Irresponsibly, perhaps, but that's not the point. If speech somehow deprives someone of their life, liberty, or property, then a separate and wholly punishable crime has been commited. So far in my life, I've never heard of a murder by words, enslavement by words, or theft by words (barring intellectual property theft, which is another topic altogether).
One could argue that slurs thrown around are slanderous and libelous, and if a person really feels it's something to pursue in court, more power to them. I doubt, without proof of damage to reputation, character, or livelihood, there would be a case when it comes to what some knucklehead said over VOIP.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Demonshank please remember that LESS is sometimes MORE. This wall of text or rather your personal theories and ideals says nothing new and your not telling us anything we havent already heard from the right wing about personal liberties being taken away. I think the whole movement is tripe and coverup for the racist ideals of racists persons. Your obviously very upset with the whole "protected class" issue and thats really too bad but coming from a white male its rather amusing. I've made my comment on that and I will leave it at that, because thats not what this thread is about. Its about Hate speech corroding the online video game experience, and obviously, whether people like you like it or not, for many it does. As a result, gaming companies are taking action. If you dont like it, dont play the games that will limit your use of racial slurs or derogatives.
If I have a spare 10 hours Ill respond to some of the other BS you posted but I dont have the time tonight. Sounds like alot of "angry white male" angst and frankly I could care less about it. Im not here to be the punching bag to your fustrations.
When a point needs to be made, than all space necessary should be consumed. I appreciate your understanding of when to concede. You've lost this debate and have nothing to add beyond more silencing speech and debasing rhetorical musings.
You're right I am angry. I am angry at folks like you who would rather keep a failed structure in place that fuels the problem, instead of coming to a table and listening to a thoughtful and respectful point of view. You would think that with all the silly laws and regulations applied to this stuff that it would all be gone. You know, everyone feeling like the punishment is too severe to lash out irrationally at someone they find different. Thats right, you cannot legislate decency.
So, I grouped with 2 guys in finish a quest in WoW. Its a tough quest but we finally finish it off. At the end of it, we are about to head back to town to drop of the quest and one of the guys needs to take a quick break a go to the loo.
So, in his absence, the other guy goes 'he is so gay, gay, gay, gay, gay' and on and on and on.
Now, I am gay, and as much as it doesn't matter what people say etc, I though to myself, do I challenge this? Does it matter? He doesn't know I'm gay should I tell him? That's not really the kind of mental discussion I want to be having while playing, but anyway...
So, I spoke up.
'Dude, I am gay, y'know?'
He apologised profusely. His mate came back and said
'Ya f*cking pansy!'
to which I replied 'Gee thanks' thinking maybe these two really were f*ckwits.
But he apologised too, and said he was saying it about the other dude (in reference to what he's called me, odd choice of insult but anyway). Both dudes seemed genuinely apologetic for the language which I thanked them for. For me that was the situation over.
Ultimately, it all ended on good terms with us continuing on.
I don't think either dude had ever even met someone who was gay before and so probably never gave it a second thought.
Now this wouldn't be the outcome of every situation like this and I did have to mentally weigh up whether to speak up about being gay or not (which no one should have to do really, certainly not while 'relaxing'), but in this case I'm glad I did. I know they weren't trying to insult me and didn't mean any malice by it but I didn't want to just stand there and passively ignore it and cop subtle abuse either. The fact that both of them apologised at least shows that they both got it could be offensive to someone who was gay. I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't lecture them afterwards. if I had ignored it though, I'm sure it would have continued ad nauseam. And quite honestly, people implying you are crap because of who you sleep with gets really f*cking boring after a while.
I think that all immature players ruin the experience. I don't think that it is necessarily just the hate speech that causes problems. I think that all insults do.
So, I grouped with 2 guys in finish a quest in WoW. Its a tough quest but we finally finish it off. At the end of it, we are about to head back to town to drop of the quest and one of the guys needs to take a quick break a go to the loo.
So, in his absence, the other guy goes 'he is so gay, gay, gay, gay, gay' and on and on and on.
Now, I am gay, and as much as it doesn't matter what people say etc, I though to myself, do I challenge this? Does it matter? He doesn't know I'm gay should I tell him? That's not really the kind of mental discussion I want to be having while playing, but anyway...
So, I spoke up.
'Dude, I am gay, y'know?'
He apologised profusely. His mate came back and said
'Ya f*cking pansy!'
to which I replied 'Gee thanks' thinking maybe these two really were f*ckwits.
But he apologised too, and said he was saying it about the other dude (in reference to what he's called me, odd choice of insult but anyway). Both dudes seemed genuinely apologetic for the language which I thanked them for. For me that was the situation over.
Ultimately, it all ended on good terms with us continuing on.
I don't think either dude had ever even met someone who was gay before and so probably never gave it a second thought.
Now this wouldn't be the outcome of every situation like this and I did have to mentally weigh up whether to speak up about being gay or not (which no one should have to do really, certainly not while 'relaxing'), but in this case I'm glad I did. I know they weren't trying to insult me and didn't mean any malice by it but I didn't want to just stand there and passively ignore it and cop subtle abuse either. The fact that both of them apologised at least shows that they both got it could be offensive to someone who was gay. I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't lecture them afterwards. if I had ignored it though, I'm sure it would have continued ad nauseam. And quite honestly, people implying you are crap because of who you sleep with gets really f*cking boring after a while.
Thanks for sharing that. I enjoyed reading it. I can imagine your thought process. If you tell them, do they then really try to be impolite towards you. In all honesty a similar mental process occurs to a straight person. Right there I had a moment on what was appropriate to declare myself as. Its too touchy on both sides. I would hope that we could just speak freely and respectful and not make someone feel irregular. Its not always that easy. That really should not be so uncomfortable.
You're an articulate person. You've got courage to give your example, and it probably has been worse before for you. That sucks. I'd play a game with you anytime. Plus, straight, who am I kidding, lol. You're straight too, really. What is more appropriate than hetero? That sounds all science-like, but who knows im just me.
You arent crap, you sound like a cool person. You're the type of person that has a real effect on the status of this subject. That isnt to patronize you, I honestly have that opinion genuinely. You have a good attitude. You found that speaking more words actually brought light to the situation. You had an effect on those people for the good, and it will be a lasting effect I would suspect. Some people mean no harm, but we do not educate and share with them the answers to ease their concerns. Also, education isnt by giving them one-sided prattle.
Silencing others wouldnt benefit you, I believe. I get the impression you dont want to impose regulation based on your sexual preference. If im mistaken, please share, I could be wrong. I just think that you placing them on ignore would have only masked the miscommunication. You really are an example for the gay community.
So, I grouped with 2 guys in finish a quest in WoW. Its a tough quest but we finally finish it off. At the end of it, we are about to head back to town to drop of the quest and one of the guys needs to take a quick break a go to the loo.
So, in his absence, the other guy goes 'he is so gay, gay, gay, gay, gay' and on and on and on.
Now, I am gay, and as much as it doesn't matter what people say etc, I though to myself, do I challenge this? Does it matter? He doesn't know I'm gay should I tell him? That's not really the kind of mental discussion I want to be having while playing, but anyway...
So, I spoke up.
'Dude, I am gay, y'know?'
He apologised profusely. His mate came back and said
'Ya f*cking pansy!'
to which I replied 'Gee thanks' thinking maybe these two really were f*ckwits.
But he apologised too, and said he was saying it about the other dude (in reference to what he's called me, odd choice of insult but anyway). Both dudes seemed genuinely apologetic for the language which I thanked them for. For me that was the situation over.
Ultimately, it all ended on good terms with us continuing on.
I don't think either dude had ever even met someone who was gay before and so probably never gave it a second thought.
Now this wouldn't be the outcome of every situation like this and I did have to mentally weigh up whether to speak up about being gay or not (which no one should have to do really, certainly not while 'relaxing'), but in this case I'm glad I did. I know they weren't trying to insult me and didn't mean any malice by it but I didn't want to just stand there and passively ignore it and cop subtle abuse either. The fact that both of them apologised at least shows that they both got it could be offensive to someone who was gay. I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't lecture them afterwards. if I had ignored it though, I'm sure it would have continued ad nauseam. And quite honestly, people implying you are crap because of who you sleep with gets really f*cking boring after a while.
This. This is pretty much how my gay friends feel about it. They dont go crazy over derogatives, but hearing it excessively get's annoying and offensive after a while. It was big of you IMO to even say anything to them. Yet at the same time its sad that we live in the day and age where people have to endure it while enjoying thier hobbies.
This. This is pretty much how my gay friends feel about it. They dont go crazy over derogatives, but hearing it excessively get's annoying and offensive after a while. It was big of you IMO to even say anything to them. Yet at the same time its sad that we live in the day and age where people have to endure it while enjoying thier hobbies.
People do not "have to endure it". afr_gc didnt have to endure it. They took a stand and made a difference, even on a small scale of 2 people. This is courage. Its the direction that needs to be magnified. afr_gc put his/her evaluation first and came to the conclusion that these two individuals were more unknowing to their language vs. expecting that everyone is well versed on respectful etiquette. His/Her solution will reach more people than regulation.
It's simple. As generations of online gaming passes by, the intellect of the online gamer has been dragged down to nothing more than ego's, immaturity etc etc.
As the yrs go by, the mentallity rate of the players drop. Doesnt matter how old they are, they stoop to the next players level or they feel out of place.
As new gamers enter the battlefields, the majority of them eventually become as degenerated and insolent as the next.
Comments
wow who cares? you guys are so pathetic you take the internet so seriously.
hahaha, grow up cry babies. It's meaningless sh*t talking.
theres nothing to fix. The internet is not a place for censorship. Either be a GOOD parent and don't let your kids use it or deal with it.
Lack of accountability.
Take an individual, give them anonymity, and give them an audience. Watch intellectual quotients divebomb.
It's freedom of expression where attention is gained without maintaining hold on repercussion.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Exactly. Well put and to the point.
What many of you who support this behavior don't understand is that the time of a law enforced internet is not far away and the more of this type of abuse, which at times leads to very real violence, that occurs the closer that time comes. We have laws to control people who can't seem to be able to control themselves and can't see beyond their own noses to understand the ramifications of the things they do.
This is incredible. Psuedo intellectuals attempting to justify censorship. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU NUTCASES?
You don't like it? Don't use it. The internet is not real life. You can turn it off at any time. You can find a server that have 0 tolerance for freedom of speech. Buy a freaking computer if you want a censored internet. There are plenty of programs that take the fun out of it you damn killjoys.
Ah, so what you're saying is "My gay friends are more valid than your gay friends." Doesn't really matter. I've no need to prove the existence of the guy since he probably doesn't care one way or another whether you exist. What this does illustrate is that people have the ultimate power of what they allow to affect them.
As a white male, (which apparantly defaults to "racist homophobe"), I laugh at all the stereotypes. I get called "Cracka" by black friends all the time. It's funny. Redneck white trash? Hell, I make fun of them too, and I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm also overweight and hear the same old fat jokes. Doesn't phase me at all. I think the displays of ignorance are an amusing and colorful aspect of life. Sure, if it leads to violence, there are ways to deal with it, but the day I empower those who use mere words to affect me in any way is the day I become as much of a loser as the idiots talking the trash. Let them talk. Ignore, Mute, Block, etc. are ubiquitous online. As for the real world, pointing and laughing are amazingly disarming.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Thanks for placing a label on me. It helps prove my points to open minded and reasonable individuals easier. You obviously are part of the problem, not the solution. I analyze issues from a reality perspective first, not historically. I do not stand for a majority, but with THE majority. The majority of humans are not racist, sexist, homophobic, or lunatics(etc.). There are more of us than are of them. Thats where I am coming from.
I disagree. Im not saying you're wrong entirely, but I do think many people DO want to be a protected class. The benefits and politically correct cover allows those people to feel ENTITLED. Once those people are challenged in life by any adversity, they instantly pull the entitlement card. They apply no responsibility to themselves, yet blame a fictitious hurdle based on their supposed 'protected' class. Those challenges are apparent very recently in the supreme court case for the New Haven, Conn. firefighters. Discrimmination is one thing. An entirely different thing is Diversity and Recognition just for the sake of "fairness" and "eqaulity". Life is not a game of chess. Its likely from your pathetic attempt to debate and exchange ideas that im playing with more pieces than you.
Anytime a freedom is regulated by law, it is oppression. I didnt address gaming until several paragraphs later, not clear what your point is. I value your opinion on 'hate speech'. You need a crutch for lifes challenges. I wouldnt be proud of that reliance on a governing body, but its not something to be ashamed of either. I also believe that if society took an active role in combating its problems instead of leaving it up to a government or entitiy that we'd be alot farther beyond these isolated problems. The gaming companies wouldnt need to enact and enforce silly speech regulation, the community would squash and purge the problem. The only lost subscriptions would be those who are isolated from said community, until they clean up their act.
I do not believe I am wrong. I said most, not all. I know the truth, and I said nothing to dispute that. The facts support the viewpoint that those people are losing the discussion. They arent growing in numbers. You're gonna lay down for them? You're gonna help them get their message out by continuing the debate with them? Im not. This discussion is about SPEECH. Their words only contain power because of folks like you. Once the bully is ignored, they wilt and falter at completing their goal. Making you FEEL bad. Thats it. Make clear to me how they prevent you from moving on? I know it might be rough for some to hear, but any person who lets another person/s hurt your feelings by words is a LOSER. You lost, they won.
It is not rampant in american culture. Ive been all across this great country and it is anything but rampant. Id say isolated, if not minimal. Does it exist? Yes. Do I like that fact? No. Ive spent time in countless communities, neighborhoods, school districts, business exchanges, and family congregations. The americans I know arent interested in letting those fringe loons succeed by getting their message out and growing their influence. If this country were rampantly discrimminatory we'd not be the beacon of hope around the world. We've mended our fences and its time to stop propagating the delusion that were so hateful. Disgraceful.
Take off the racial glasses. That is an incredibly silly statement. Everything I said was full of respect and should do absolutely nothing but make you think. I am a white male. I will continue to be part of the solution. I treat everyone with respect, first. My actions will have an effect on reasonable people. To do the right thing is always harder than the wrong thing. That right action is contagious. Hell even in games its usually always easier to be evil. Still fun, dont get me wrong.
Sure its been around since the beginning of time. In the past and in less and less instances today it has/is being handled by society at large. I beg your pardon, but it is not nonsense. You may disagree, but nonsense is a negligent response. Again you are framing yourself as a person who is beyond reasonable debate and understanding that there could be and IS another viewpoint beyond your own. I wouldnt want to label you, but your remarks reek of elitism. Silencing the participants does nothing beneficial to the discussion.
Exactly. They do remind us of a time that many mistakes were made, but we've since made an immense impact for the better on those days. We dont need a reminder, nobody has forgotten, but the reasonable people have forgiven. It again propels individuals to stay under that cover of protection. Its alot easier to identify the problem, quite another to work on solving it. You're right, some people are ignorant. Some of those people are dangerous. That is a difference again between speech and physical violence.
Once you assault someone physically, its over. You're going down and hopefully to jail, until you get your act straight. If you're a racist idiot, than you're going down for a long time and our system handles that very well. I can agree that speech inciting violence is violence. No question. Those people do need to be kept in check and I think that our system handles that well also. Yelling fire in a theatre, specific threats of bodily harm, bomb threats and all nature of that very specific speech is and should be punishable. Me calling you a whore, slut, skank, the N word, homo, and all the words we know is pathetic. It doesnt belong, but its not hate speech. Its not pleasant, but its not inciting any violence. None.
There is a difference what is being said amongst friends and what is being said to total strangers. My African friends regularly call me Whitey or Mazungo or inquire as to wheter my igloo has any sort of heating apparatus and I take no offense, and i regularly call them junglecreatures, desertdwellers and ask them to smile in dark rooms so that i can see them. However, we all know this completely unacceptable outside our clique. Though our right to free speech does not disallow us to do this, our common courtesy, manners, and upbringing has tought us better than to engage in language which may be offensive to others.
Freedom of speech is a right and a priveledge that needs to be exercised in a manner which does not needlessly offend anyone. Using racial, sexual, political, or religious slurs is not using your freedom, but rather abusing it.
Ive laid out in very substantive terms the road we've been on that has lead us away from more people following this criteria. We can get back to it. Its personal responsibility. Call it whatever you like, its ethical self reliance. Thanks, at least you have one fair thing to say.
That is what the article brings up for discussion. A meaningful resolution. That resolution is to have less occurances of unpleasant speech. How to reach that resolution is what is up for debate. As well as why is it we find ourselves at this crossroads. It has increased enough that it is being discussed. Its a pretty clear cut debate on Silencing speech vs. Free speech. I dislike(hate?) the loons as much as you do, I think. Id like them to stop, but to display how they are winning by shutting down speech is not a victory for those against the lunatics. It only gets worse as more people are reluctant to handle the problem over slapping a silencer on it. Lets deal with our problems. What comes next? There is always a next.
I wouldnt qualify a Hitler fanatic to be a racist. A fanatic of that type is a deranged individual. I disagree vehemently with you about catagorizing someone an eternal 'klansman'. I believe in retribution, and I pray for you, that someday you do not find yourself in a situation of innocence of wrong doing, or remorseful/repentant for greivous mistakes, after having completed steps for forgiveness and acceptance only to be denied by someone with your inability to exonerate anothers character.
As far as subjection to hate, im sorry. If someone is being criminally harassed there are/were laws already on the books for that. Someone who is of a 'protected class' already has/had protection from harassment. Im well aware of the current status. If it doesnt rise to harassment, than it is a reality that mother isnt going to beat the bogeyman with a nightlight.
This statement represents nothing even remotely close to what statement/s being made. This is another tactic to try and influence me with intimidation and utter chaos theory to shut me up and discredit my statement. Reasonable people debate with points and facts. This does neither. Nor does it frame a valid or legitimate arguement.
Thanks again for helping solve the problem, beyond just taking away someone elses freedom. Laws do keep those types in check, we agree. I think gaming companies would be far better off if society at large wielded our power to unite effectively. I did nothing to represent an affront on my ideals was achieved. Your broad opinion of slap another entitlement on it approach is not going to reach solution. You actually keep those groups down even further by taking away their ability to emerge legitimately and make it on their own like the rest of society has. Including members that could apply to those groups, but choose to rise above the faux protection(welfare). Id never hold it against someone negatively who abused those 'protections', but id be far more congratulatory towards someone who didnt.
Dear god, walls of bs prosa.
just posting cause thought something is very funny:
You play a game where you kill each other, and swearing is your biggest issue.
Broomy
I fear i can't respond the way it needs to be adressed since this forum enjoys just the kind of moderation your kind wishes for.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I find it funny that this is just now garnering attention. I remember years ago playing online when the xbox first came out and people would just say the most hateful things to their teammates that they percieved as black, jewish, etc... It definately made me not want to play on xbox live ever again. I play games for fun, not to listen to people verbally attack each other over their culture, race, etc... If I want drama I will watch law and order.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Demonshank please remember that LESS is sometimes MORE. This wall of text or rather your personal theories and ideals says nothing new and your not telling us anything we havent already heard from the right wing about personal liberties being taken away. I think the whole movement is tripe and coverup for the racist ideals of racists persons. Your obviously very upset with the whole "protected class" issue and thats really too bad but coming from a white male its rather amusing. I've made my comment on that and I will leave it at that, because thats not what this thread is about. Its about Hate speech corroding the online video game experience, and obviously, whether people like you like it or not, for many it does. As a result, gaming companies are taking action. If you dont like it, dont play the games that will limit your use of racial slurs or derogatives.
If I have a spare 10 hours Ill respond to some of the other BS you posted but I dont have the time tonight. Sounds like alot of "angry white male" angst and frankly I could care less about it. Im not here to be the punching bag to your fustrations.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Good, because if you cant express yourself intelligently and in such a way that doesnt warrant moderation, your best bet is to not say anything. And I'll give you kudos for recognizing that.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Xbox live ingame chat is a cesspool. Sometimes it's very depressing listening to these people. Other times I find it amusing. There are also a lot of death threats and stuff in addition to the profanity and hate speech. There's not much you can do about it that I have seen.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
When a point needs to be made, than all space necessary should be consumed. I appreciate your understanding of when to concede. You've lost this debate and have nothing to add beyond more silencing speech and debasing rhetorical musings.
You're right I am angry. I am angry at folks like you who would rather keep a failed structure in place that fuels the problem, instead of coming to a table and listening to a thoughtful and respectful point of view. You would think that with all the silly laws and regulations applied to this stuff that it would all be gone. You know, everyone feeling like the punishment is too severe to lash out irrationally at someone they find different. Thats right, you cannot legislate decency.
[Mod Edit]
My two cents on this. Actual experience.
So, I grouped with 2 guys in finish a quest in WoW. Its a tough quest but we finally finish it off. At the end of it, we are about to head back to town to drop of the quest and one of the guys needs to take a quick break a go to the loo.
So, in his absence, the other guy goes 'he is so gay, gay, gay, gay, gay' and on and on and on.
Now, I am gay, and as much as it doesn't matter what people say etc, I though to myself, do I challenge this? Does it matter? He doesn't know I'm gay should I tell him? That's not really the kind of mental discussion I want to be having while playing, but anyway...
So, I spoke up.
'Dude, I am gay, y'know?'
He apologised profusely. His mate came back and said
'Ya f*cking pansy!'
to which I replied 'Gee thanks' thinking maybe these two really were f*ckwits.
But he apologised too, and said he was saying it about the other dude (in reference to what he's called me, odd choice of insult but anyway). Both dudes seemed genuinely apologetic for the language which I thanked them for. For me that was the situation over.
Ultimately, it all ended on good terms with us continuing on.
I don't think either dude had ever even met someone who was gay before and so probably never gave it a second thought.
Now this wouldn't be the outcome of every situation like this and I did have to mentally weigh up whether to speak up about being gay or not (which no one should have to do really, certainly not while 'relaxing'), but in this case I'm glad I did. I know they weren't trying to insult me and didn't mean any malice by it but I didn't want to just stand there and passively ignore it and cop subtle abuse either. The fact that both of them apologised at least shows that they both got it could be offensive to someone who was gay. I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't lecture them afterwards. if I had ignored it though, I'm sure it would have continued ad nauseam. And quite honestly, people implying you are crap because of who you sleep with gets really f*cking boring after a while.
I think that all immature players ruin the experience. I don't think that it is necessarily just the hate speech that causes problems. I think that all insults do.
www.ryzom.com
Thanks for sharing that. I enjoyed reading it. I can imagine your thought process. If you tell them, do they then really try to be impolite towards you. In all honesty a similar mental process occurs to a straight person. Right there I had a moment on what was appropriate to declare myself as. Its too touchy on both sides. I would hope that we could just speak freely and respectful and not make someone feel irregular. Its not always that easy. That really should not be so uncomfortable.
You're an articulate person. You've got courage to give your example, and it probably has been worse before for you. That sucks. I'd play a game with you anytime. Plus, straight, who am I kidding, lol. You're straight too, really. What is more appropriate than hetero? That sounds all science-like, but who knows im just me.
You arent crap, you sound like a cool person. You're the type of person that has a real effect on the status of this subject. That isnt to patronize you, I honestly have that opinion genuinely. You have a good attitude. You found that speaking more words actually brought light to the situation. You had an effect on those people for the good, and it will be a lasting effect I would suspect. Some people mean no harm, but we do not educate and share with them the answers to ease their concerns. Also, education isnt by giving them one-sided prattle.
Silencing others wouldnt benefit you, I believe. I get the impression you dont want to impose regulation based on your sexual preference. If im mistaken, please share, I could be wrong. I just think that you placing them on ignore would have only masked the miscommunication. You really are an example for the gay community.
This. This is pretty much how my gay friends feel about it. They dont go crazy over derogatives, but hearing it excessively get's annoying and offensive after a while. It was big of you IMO to even say anything to them. Yet at the same time its sad that we live in the day and age where people have to endure it while enjoying thier hobbies.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
People do not "have to endure it". afr_gc didnt have to endure it. They took a stand and made a difference, even on a small scale of 2 people. This is courage. Its the direction that needs to be magnified. afr_gc put his/her evaluation first and came to the conclusion that these two individuals were more unknowing to their language vs. expecting that everyone is well versed on respectful etiquette. His/Her solution will reach more people than regulation.
You'd be better suited to take notice.
[Mod Edit]
It's simple. As generations of online gaming passes by, the intellect of the online gamer has been dragged down to nothing more than ego's, immaturity etc etc.
As the yrs go by, the mentallity rate of the players drop. Doesnt matter how old they are, they stoop to the next players level or they feel out of place.
As new gamers enter the battlefields, the majority of them eventually become as degenerated and insolent as the next.