You know, I am always baffled when on a simple topic as hate speech, we always have some people yelling "CENSORSHIP". Yes, some speech needs to be censored: at least by yourself. That is the fundament of civilized politeness. You censor yourself by not burping into your next face. You censor yourself that when you need to sneeze you dont do it into the next person's meal. That means, you control yourself to a degree that your demeanor is not offensive and people enjoy having you around. The alternative is, you'll be quite alone quite soon - or in the company of other rude people. Something I personally would not value.
Higher moral aside, some sorts of rudeness should not be tolerated. You call it censorship, I call it politeness and good upbringing. Something you can never have enough of.
People hide behind their internet anonymity and talk and behave in ways they would never dare in RL. It is a pity. People should always try to show their best and not promote offensive language. It's not that some police comes and censors you, it is that you are kindly asked to participate good will, kindness and politeness, and when you are unable to control you self you are to be removed from forums or guilds, so you can do you swearing free and unhindered, but you please do it elsewhere. No one cares what you do in your home, there you are free to do uncensored what you want. But in public places there are always some rules. And as such the internet IS a public place. Just because you sit at home typing doesn't mean you can do and say what you will.
As to games: everything should be there to make people better, not promote bad bahvior in a way that minors are suggested to immitate it. Art and entertainment are there to elevate people, to teach them to be better people. And that this can be just as entertaining was shown by the Ultima RPG series. If you act like a psychopath, it has consequences. That is something actually very simple to grasp.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
No, I support people growing a thicker skin and not being so whiny. Someone called you a name? Oh baww. A guy hit me with a car. The two don't equate, one is harmless the other is not.
"Words are neither good nor bad, they're just words. It's the racist asshole using them you have to worry about."-George Carlin
You know I don't agree with you at all. Not one tiny bit.
But your post made me think....
This topic is inherently ironic.
We're talking about games where players shoot, hack and bash each other literally to death. That we don't have a problem with, but name-calling bothers us.
I'm anti hate-speech and all. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I stopped playing Horizons specifically because their owners turned a blind eye to it.
1. I fully support the full expresion of human beings even if I dont like it. I would much rather a racist yell it loud and clear so that I know in no uncertian terms that he/she is one rather than wondering if someone is or not.
2. media would clearly perfer you put the video game down and watch teen idol so you can learn what is the best soap for your hair, so keep that context in mind
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
No, I support people growing a thicker skin and not being so whiny. Someone called you a name? Oh baww. A guy hit me with a car. The two don't equate, one is harmless the other is not.
"Words are neither good nor bad, they're just words. It's the racist asshole using them you have to worry about."-George Carlin
You know I don't agree with you at all. Not one tiny bit.
But your post made me think....
This topic is inherently ironic.
We're talking about games where players shoot, hack and bash each other literally to death. That we don't have a problem with, but name-calling bothers us.
I'm anti hate-speech and all. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I stopped playing Horizons specifically because their owners turned a blind eye to it.
But the irony does make me giggle.
Meh. I support what swyndle is saying and embrace it whole heartedly. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me?
Let me answer my own question: Profit & Advantage. People saw profit and advantage in being hurt by something somebody else said, and so they became hurt. The person saying something hateful may or may not be a racist or a bigot. They could be just a moron with a big mouth and little comprehension of what theyre really saying. The person getting offended enough to cry foul and make a scene however is a true racist. Theyve spotted a difference, found a weakness, and honed in for the kill. And theyve done all of this by thinking as a hate filled bigot would think.
That being said, I also agree with you for the most part. We are playing violent games and want everyone to snuggle up and be pals. This isnt Hello Kitty Online Adventures!
There's a place in the world for the words "Fuck off, moron." Dealing with racism, bigotry, and hate speech on a regular basis, Ive learned how to use those words. Crying out loud "so and so called me a bad name" to all of your friends only makes you look weak for doing so.
Well the solution is complex, yet simplistic... People should be forced (via credit card, SS#, passport ID, school transcript) to have to use their full real name... it's easy for RaEpURmomz69omfg to talk sh1t about you but when he is Robert Kawalski from Akron, Ohio IP:xxx.xx.xx.xxx they will think twice... take away the shroud of anonymity and the interweb will be a much more peaceful place...
Meh. I support what swyndle is saying and embrace it whole heartedly. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me?
Let me answer my own question: Profit & Advantage. People saw profit and advantage in being hurt by something somebody else said, and so they became hurt. The person saying something hateful may or may not be a racist or a bigot. They could be just a moron with a big mouth and little comprehension of what theyre really saying. The person getting offended enough to cry foul and make a scene however is a true racist. Theyve spotted a difference, found a weakness, and honed in for the kill. And theyve done all of this by thinking as a hate filled bigot would think.
Unfortunately there is often an element of that. These laws - like many others - are prone to abuse. I've even been on the receiving end once. I - a gay man - lost my PhD, my career etc. etc. to a convicted strangler after I refused to date her. She explicitly threatened me in an email for refusing to date her, then after I refused to date her again she made up an absurd sexual harassment complaint (something I later learned she'd done before) and I was run out of my job.
And she continued to stalk and harass me for several years - always playing the "I'm a woman with a disability" card (i.e. a pyschopath who happens to have ovaries) any time the law came anywhere near her - until eventually I moved interstate.
So I'm really, very keenly aware of how these things can be abused.
But the real issue is economic equality. Everyone, regardless of race, religion etc. etc. who pays for a service should get the same value for money from that service. That is at the core of anti-discrimination legislation. Everyone who pays to play an mmo deserves to get the same value for money. That doesn't happen if you let things like "hate-speech" slide.
And the real question you should be asking, is does anyone really need to mouth off with hate speech to enjoy these games? It seems to me that it's taking friendly competition to a fairly dark place.
But the real issue is economic equality. Everyone, regardless of race, religion etc. etc. who pays for a service should get the same value for money from that service. That is at the core of anti-discrimination legislation. Everyone who pays to play an mmo deserves to get the same value for money. That doesn't happen if you let things like "hate-speech" slide.
And the real question you should be asking, is does anyone really need to mouth off with hate speech to enjoy these games? It seems to me that it's taking friendly competition to a fairly dark place.
Nobody needs to, this is correct. Nobody needs to act like a fool in any circumstance. However its almost inevitable that someone does, and it seems like simply saying "No you cant do this" encourages some people to do it even more!
Im rather skeptical of legislation whether via a government or via a service, where it pertains to my freedom of speech and action. Not because Im going to go around burning crosses and writing crazy songs like this guy, but because I may be reprimanded for my particular mode of expression including such an example in order to further highlight the dangerousness of the topic at hand!
Was my speech hateful? Not even close. I have no hate nor personal issue with anybody here, for any reason. But some moderator could come along at any moment and slap me with a ban stick for "hate speech" because my reply included a taboo word, phrase, or in this case link to a video another poster might find offensive if viewed in the appropriate context. Edit: In fact --- I thought about this after the fact, and I dont trust another user here to not get upset over that link, so I changed it to a wiki page!
The point Im trying to make is, once you start asking someone else to police one of your activities, you ask them to police all of your activities. While hate speech is objectionable, losing the ability to accurately express yourself is more objectionable.
But the real issue is economic equality. Everyone, regardless of race, religion etc. etc. who pays for a service should get the same value for money from that service. That is at the core of anti-discrimination legislation. Everyone who pays to play an mmo deserves to get the same value for money. That doesn't happen if you let things like "hate-speech" slide.
And the real question you should be asking, is does anyone really need to mouth off with hate speech to enjoy these games? It seems to me that it's taking friendly competition to a fairly dark place.
Nobody needs to, this is correct. Nobody needs to act like a fool in any circumstance. However its almost inevitable that someone does, and it seems like simply saying "No you cant do this" encourages some people to do it even more!
Im rather skeptical of legislation whether via a government or via a service, where it pertains to my freedom of speech and action. Not because Im going to go around burning crosses and writing crazy songs like this guy, but because I may be reprimanded for my particular mode of expression including such an example in order to further highlight the dangerousness of the topic at hand!
Was my speech hateful? Not even close. I have no hate nor personal issue with anybody here, for any reason. But some moderator could come along at any moment and slap me with a ban stick for "hate speech" because my reply included a taboo word, phrase, or in this case link to a video another poster might find offensive if viewed in the appropriate context. Edit: In fact --- I thought about this after the fact, and I dont trust another user here to not get upset over that link, so I changed it to a wiki page!
The point Im trying to make is, once you start asking someone else to police one of your activities, you ask them to police all of your activities. While hate speech is objectionable, losing the ability to accurately express yourself is more objectionable.
The problem I have with censoring hate speech is that it doesnt change the hate it just makes it harder for others to find.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
But the real issue is economic equality. Everyone, regardless of race, religion etc. etc. who pays for a service should get the same value for money from that service. That is at the core of anti-discrimination legislation. Everyone who pays to play an mmo deserves to get the same value for money. That doesn't happen if you let things like "hate-speech" slide.
And the real question you should be asking, is does anyone really need to mouth off with hate speech to enjoy these games? It seems to me that it's taking friendly competition to a fairly dark place.
Nobody needs to, this is correct. Nobody needs to act like a fool in any circumstance. However its almost inevitable that someone does, and it seems like simply saying "No you cant do this" encourages some people to do it even more!
Im rather skeptical of legislation whether via a government or via a service, where it pertains to my freedom of speech and action. Not because Im going to go around burning crosses and writing crazy songs like this guy, but because I may be reprimanded for my particular mode of expression including such an example in order to further highlight the dangerousness of the topic at hand!
Was my speech hateful? Not even close. I have no hate nor personal issue with anybody here, for any reason. But some moderator could come along at any moment and slap me with a ban stick for "hate speech" because my reply included a taboo word, phrase, or in this case link to a video another poster might find offensive if viewed in the appropriate context. Edit: In fact --- I thought about this after the fact, and I dont trust another user here to not get upset over that link, so I changed it to a wiki page!
The point Im trying to make is, once you start asking someone else to police one of your activities, you ask them to police all of your activities. While hate speech is objectionable, losing the ability to accurately express yourself is more objectionable.
The problem I have with censoring hate speech is that it doesnt change the hate it just makes it harder for others to find.
Actually it makes it easier for others to find. If people cannot discuss a subject freely, then any discussion on that subject at all has its volume artificially turned up.
Players should have to wear a shock collar when playing. That way when they start with the hate the devs can give them a verbal warning then a three second shock each time. Ah, good old behavioral modification. Since their freedom loving parents are to busy not caring the now neccesary socialist state will have to step in for "a more peaceful and productive society."
1. I fully support the full expresion of human beings even if I dont like it. I would much rather a racist yell it loud and clear so that I know in no uncertian terms that he/she is one rather than wondering if someone is or not.
2. media would clearly perfer you put the video game down and watch teen idol so you can learn what is the best soap for your hair, so keep that context in mind.
Well, to be honest I can't say that I agree with you. I believe in free speech. But I also believe in those restrictions that we have on free speech. I mean, we are protected from those who would yell fire in crowded movie theaters. We should not have to be subjected to racist garbage while trying to play a game. I get that that may be enjoyable for them, but at the same time there are usually children playing. While I don't agree with children playing teen and mature rated games it happens. We should be mindful of that and we should respect that we have an impact on what those children think and feel.
1. I fully support the full expresion of human beings even if I dont like it. I would much rather a racist yell it loud and clear so that I know in no uncertian terms that he/she is one rather than wondering if someone is or not.
2. media would clearly perfer you put the video game down and watch teen idol so you can learn what is the best soap for your hair, so keep that context in mind.
Well, to be honest I can't say that I agree with you. I believe in free speech. But I also believe in those restrictions that we have on free speech. I mean, we are protected from those who would yell fire in crowded movie theaters. We should not have to be subjected to racist garbage while trying to play a game. I get that that may be enjoyable for them, but at the same time there are usually children playing. While I don't agree with children playing teen and mature rated games it happens. We should be mindful of that and we should respect that we have an impact on what those children think and feel.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is not the same as saying a racial slur. Yelling fire has the potential to cause panic and physically harm someone. If someone is delicate enough to actually be phyisically hurt by a racial slur, they have bigger problems than a handful of racists. I would highly recommend to that person getting off the internet and seeking some professional help.
The more disturbing thing is that people don't just say things like they wish hilter had succeeded, they mean them.
I don't really understand it myself. After reading enough anonymous online sources, playing mmos, etc, I've simply concluded that most people only feign decency, and deep down inside they are twisted and ignorant.
The core of the problem right here.
Now if only we could fix people, problem solved..yayyyy!
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
The more disturbing thing is that people don't just say things like they wish hilter had succeeded, they mean them.
I don't really understand it myself. After reading enough anonymous online sources, playing mmos, etc, I've simply concluded that most people only feign decency, and deep down inside they are twisted and ignorant.
The core of the problem right here.
Now if only we could fix people, problem solved..yayyyy!
Alas, these days I fear more and more this may indeed be the case. When I was younger I used to think, everyone was like me: just wanting to get along well with others, finding peace and harmony, learning about the world.
Maybe the today outdated view that some humans are just bad people by themselves, is indeed more true than we admit. We want to live in a world where all can be solved, where all is psychology and explainable. But maybe some people just are twisted and ignorant and there is nothing we can do. *sigh*
Maybe indeed it is so.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
No, I support people growing a thicker skin and not being so whiny. Someone called you a name? Oh baww. A guy hit me with a car. The two don't equate, one is harmless the other is not.
"Words are neither good nor bad, they're just words. It's the racist asshole using them you have to worry about."-George Carlin
You know I don't agree with you at all. Not one tiny bit.
But your post made me think....
This topic is inherently ironic.
We're talking about games where players shoot, hack and bash each other literally to death. That we don't have a problem with, but name-calling bothers us.
I'm anti hate-speech and all. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I stopped playing Horizons specifically because their owners turned a blind eye to it.
But the irony does make me giggle.
Irony is fun.
As to the rest, if you check a few pages back I fully clarified my stance on hate speech. I'm not for it. The flip side of that is that I'm against running to tattle every time something doesn't sit right. Handle it like a grown up.
If a dish in a resteraunt offends my palate, I don't order it anymore. I don't sue anyone because my taste buds were assaulted, I simply find something to replace the horrible taste and never order the item again. I hate raw foods, therefore as a thinking being there is an entire food service category that I ignore much to my daughter's annoyance(she's half japanese). Since I hate it, there is no logical reason for me to acknowledge that sushi resteraunts exist let alone patronize them.
I'm an artist, as such my entire motive is expression regardless who gets all butt hurt over the images I produce. As with television and radio the public are free to change the channel and look at something else. By all means ignore my artwork. It takes less than three seconds in any given online game to ignore someone dumb.
I can tell you I ignore people far more often for being illiterate, or *gasp* retarded than I do for hateful speech, simply because that is my personal pet peeve.
And before anyone jumps on it: "retarded" is not hate speech, it hasn't been applied to anyone who was physically or mentally deficient in more than two decades. Get over it.
No, I support people growing a thicker skin and not being so whiny. Someone called you a name? Oh baww. A guy hit me with a car. The two don't equate, one is harmless the other is not.
"Words are neither good nor bad, they're just words. It's the racist asshole using them you have to worry about."-George Carlin
You know I don't agree with you at all. Not one tiny bit.
But your post made me think....
This topic is inherently ironic.
We're talking about games where players shoot, hack and bash each other literally to death. That we don't have a problem with, but name-calling bothers us.
I'm anti hate-speech and all. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I stopped playing Horizons specifically because their owners turned a blind eye to it.
But the irony does make me giggle.
Meh. I support what swyndle is saying and embrace it whole heartedly. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me?
Let me answer my own question: Profit & Advantage. People saw profit and advantage in being hurt by something somebody else said, and so they became hurt. The person saying something hateful may or may not be a racist or a bigot. They could be just a moron with a big mouth and little comprehension of what theyre really saying. The person getting offended enough to cry foul and make a scene however is a true racist. Theyve spotted a difference, found a weakness, and honed in for the kill. And theyve done all of this by thinking as a hate filled bigot would think.
That being said, I also agree with you for the most part. We are playing violent games and want everyone to snuggle up and be pals. This isnt Hello Kitty Online Adventures!
There's a place in the world for the words "Fuck off, moron." Dealing with racism, bigotry, and hate speech on a regular basis, Ive learned how to use those words. Crying out loud "so and so called me a bad name" to all of your friends only makes you look weak for doing so.
And unfortunately, against all odds and Darwin's theory to the contrary, it seems more and more that the weak have inherited the earth...
Interesting debate that raises lots of cool questions and which all of us gamers have had direct experience of.
Straight to the OP title statement: Yes, I do think hate speech corrodes online video game experience.
Hate speech is the specific term used by the OP and it is in a different ballpark from from childish namecalling. Hate speech is: "speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone based on his/her race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability." Hate speech is something I have rarely experienced in real life, but when I did (racist skinheads in Britain in the 1970s) it was pretty horrible and definitely memorable. But with the mass appeal of mmorpgs and online games, hate speech is something I have experienced with alarming regularity online.
We have to be careful, though. For example, the Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle - who I love - recently got into hot water over jokes made about down syndrome kids during his recent comedy tour. While I personally feel he went too far with this joke and deserves all the subsequent bad publicity he received, I wouldn't call it "hate speech" and it hasn't - fortunately - been labelled as such by the people who complained or the media storm that followed. The keywords defining "hate speech" is that toxic combination of wilfully trying to "intimidate", "degrade" and "incite violence" and on those terms it is obvious that Frankie Boyle was just making some tasteles and lame jokes for cheap shock value and that it meant nothing more than that. So I would say that we have to reserve the word "Hate Speech" only for those circumstances where it is obvious we are in the presence of wilfully malicous hate speech.
Most of the bad behaviour I see online is just childish namecalling and retarded attention seeking (trolling) and sure the best response to this is either a cutting remark to shame them into growing up or just using ingame tools to put them on ignore. I think a lot of the posters who use macho language about growing a pair or having thick skins or not crying to mommy had this level of bad behavior in mind when they wrote their posts. I think they need to review the definition of hate speech and realise how this is different from being called carrot head or lard ass or something.
So, to conclude on the issue of hate speech in mmorpgs. I do think we have the tools to deal with it ingame and I also think the mmorpg authorities are proactive about this issue when it arises. But I have seen it with such frequency in mmorpgs that when I take an extended break from mmorpgs the existence of of hate speech in the games I play is usually another reason why I extend my "retirement" from mmorpgs for another few months.
Interesting debate that raises lots of cool questions and which all of us gamers have had direct experience of.
Straight to the OP title statement: Yes, I do think hate speech corrodes online video game experience.
Hate speech is the specific term used by the OP and it is in a different ballpark from from childish namecalling. Hate speech is: "speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone based on his/her race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability." Hate speech is something I have rarely experienced in real life, but when I did (racist skinheads in Britain in the 1970s) it was pretty horrible and definitely memorable. But with the mass appeal of mmorpgs and online games, hate speech is something I have experienced with alarming regularity online.
We have to be careful, though. For example, the Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle - who I love - recently got into hot water over jokes made about down syndrome kids during his recent comedy tour. While I personally feel he went too far with this joke and deserves all the subsequent bad publicity he received, I wouldn't call it "hate speech" and it hasn't - fortunately - been labelled as such by the people who complained or the media storm that followed. The keywords defining "hate speech" is that toxic combination of wilfully trying to "intimidate", "degrade" and "incite violence" and on those terms it is obvious that Frankie Boyle was just making some tasteles and lame jokes for cheap shock value and that it meant nothing more than that. So I would say that we have to reserve the word "Hate Speech" only for those circumstances where it is obvious we are in the presence of wilfully malicous hate speech.
Most of the bad behaviour I see online is just childish namecalling and retarded attention seeking (trolling) and sure the best response to this is either a cutting remark to shame them into growing up or just using ingame tools to put them on ignore. I think a lot of the posters who use macho language about growing a pair or having thick skins or not crying to mommy had this level of bad behavior in mind when they wrote their posts. I think they need to review the definition of hate speech and realise how this is different from being called carrot head or lard ass or something.
So, to conclude on the issue of hate speech in mmorpgs. I do think we have the tools to deal with it ingame and I also think the mmorpg authorities are proactive about this issue when it arises. But I have seen it with such frequency in mmorpgs that when I take an extended break from mmorpgs the existence of of hate speech in the games I play is usually another reason why I extend my "retirement" from mmorpgs for another few months.
I actually support the right to express hate speech, but I am not going to be one of these hypocrits that say "words are words man, they mean nothing." If that is true, then you would not care if I called your own child racist or infamitory names in front of you. Because, words are just words.
As a long time troll I understand one fact, words are everything baby. Words can drive people to kill and words can clam people. It has always been this way. Back in the hard old days, when men were men and words "meant nothing," Hitler calling various ethnic groups rodents/subhumans drove men to commit genocide. See words are the most powerful thing on this planet.
Now why do I support the expression of hate speech? Because I don't believe that people have the right to control thought., people should have the right to express themselves no matter how vile or dangerous. But if you want to punch someone in the back of the head who called you a racial slur, I would'nt tell.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
I actually support the right to express hate speech, but I am not going to be one of these hypocrits that say "words are words man, they mean nothing." If that is true, then you would not care if I called your own child racist or infamitory names in front of you. Because, words are just words.
As a long time troll I understand one fact, words are everything baby. Words can drive people to kill and words can clam people. It has always been this way. Back in the hard old days, when men were men and words "meant nothing," Hitler calling various ethnic groups rodents/subhumans drove men to commit genocide. See words are the most powerful thing on this planet.
Now why do I support the expression of hate speech? Because I don't believe that people have the right to control thought., people should have the right to express themselves no matter how vile or dangerous. But if you want to punch someone in the back of the head who called you a racial slur, I would'nt tell.
Words have no power over anyone. That someone can't control their own reaction to words("driven" to violence) is not the fault of the words, or the speaker, but the person with the mental defect that makes them violent. If you're predisposed to violence, then words aren't going to make you violent any more than a smell or picture or taste or skin rash. You'll be violent because your brain is broken, or you lack self restraint. Words are always innocent since words have no intent.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people with guns. Guns have no intent of their own.
Then again, I understand how magnets work, so I'm not sure why I'm even responding...
Hopefully they don't go so far to become as annoying as unisoft's DRM if they try to do something like this, as long as they don't go to the extreme, I support this movement. I am sick of tired of hearing shit like this in real life, and in the many online games. People are becoming more stupider and stupider, that in the future... people think sucide is cool and life is such a fucking taboo, or something worse then that. I am just tired of seeing this immaturity rises, it just remind me of those idiots in middle school who bully people and attempt to just bash their face in for no fucking reason. Just even thinking of this shit really make me sick...
Sometimes I wish there was an important test that you have to take, a test of maturity and intelligence... those who fail be unable to breed in the future, this help prevent more ignorant people from coming into this world and start wrecking havok. Some people will see this as barbaric and see it as unholy, but to me, I say it's a must need so that the idiots can just kill themselves off by violance and gang warfare and let the smart one's lives.
Comments
No offence, but I think you're being silly and unreasonable.
I can't be bothered reading back to find out why we're talking about Fox News, but it is a joke.
I have watched it briefly several times (channel flicking) and every time it's made me laugh.
But asking someone for specific examples is a bit absurd. It's been years since the last time I watched a Fox News segment so my memory draws a blank.
But google turned up a few interesting tidbits.
An article discussing Fox News and the (in)credibility of their political polls, with political advertising on the poll site.
http://www.nolanchart.com/article768.html
An article on public perception of news credibility. Fox News doesn't do well, but it does seem to please the conservatives.
http://people-press.org/report/215/news-audiences-increasingly-politicized
You know, I am always baffled when on a simple topic as hate speech, we always have some people yelling "CENSORSHIP". Yes, some speech needs to be censored: at least by yourself. That is the fundament of civilized politeness. You censor yourself by not burping into your next face. You censor yourself that when you need to sneeze you dont do it into the next person's meal. That means, you control yourself to a degree that your demeanor is not offensive and people enjoy having you around. The alternative is, you'll be quite alone quite soon - or in the company of other rude people. Something I personally would not value.
Higher moral aside, some sorts of rudeness should not be tolerated. You call it censorship, I call it politeness and good upbringing. Something you can never have enough of.
People hide behind their internet anonymity and talk and behave in ways they would never dare in RL. It is a pity. People should always try to show their best and not promote offensive language. It's not that some police comes and censors you, it is that you are kindly asked to participate good will, kindness and politeness, and when you are unable to control you self you are to be removed from forums or guilds, so you can do you swearing free and unhindered, but you please do it elsewhere. No one cares what you do in your home, there you are free to do uncensored what you want. But in public places there are always some rules. And as such the internet IS a public place. Just because you sit at home typing doesn't mean you can do and say what you will.
As to games: everything should be there to make people better, not promote bad bahvior in a way that minors are suggested to immitate it. Art and entertainment are there to elevate people, to teach them to be better people. And that this can be just as entertaining was shown by the Ultima RPG series. If you act like a psychopath, it has consequences. That is something actually very simple to grasp.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You know I don't agree with you at all. Not one tiny bit.
But your post made me think....
This topic is inherently ironic.
We're talking about games where players shoot, hack and bash each other literally to death. That we don't have a problem with, but name-calling bothers us.
I'm anti hate-speech and all. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I stopped playing Horizons specifically because their owners turned a blind eye to it.
But the irony does make me giggle.
1. I fully support the full expresion of human beings even if I dont like it. I would much rather a racist yell it loud and clear so that I know in no uncertian terms that he/she is one rather than wondering if someone is or not.
2. media would clearly perfer you put the video game down and watch teen idol so you can learn what is the best soap for your hair, so keep that context in mind
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Meh. I support what swyndle is saying and embrace it whole heartedly. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me?
Let me answer my own question: Profit & Advantage. People saw profit and advantage in being hurt by something somebody else said, and so they became hurt. The person saying something hateful may or may not be a racist or a bigot. They could be just a moron with a big mouth and little comprehension of what theyre really saying. The person getting offended enough to cry foul and make a scene however is a true racist. Theyve spotted a difference, found a weakness, and honed in for the kill. And theyve done all of this by thinking as a hate filled bigot would think.
That being said, I also agree with you for the most part. We are playing violent games and want everyone to snuggle up and be pals. This isnt Hello Kitty Online Adventures!
There's a place in the world for the words "Fuck off, moron." Dealing with racism, bigotry, and hate speech on a regular basis, Ive learned how to use those words. Crying out loud "so and so called me a bad name" to all of your friends only makes you look weak for doing so.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
Well the solution is complex, yet simplistic... People should be forced (via credit card, SS#, passport ID, school transcript) to have to use their full real name... it's easy for RaEpURmomz69omfg to talk sh1t about you but when he is Robert Kawalski from Akron, Ohio IP:xxx.xx.xx.xxx they will think twice... take away the shroud of anonymity and the interweb will be a much more peaceful place...
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Unfortunately there is often an element of that. These laws - like many others - are prone to abuse. I've even been on the receiving end once. I - a gay man - lost my PhD, my career etc. etc. to a convicted strangler after I refused to date her. She explicitly threatened me in an email for refusing to date her, then after I refused to date her again she made up an absurd sexual harassment complaint (something I later learned she'd done before) and I was run out of my job.
And she continued to stalk and harass me for several years - always playing the "I'm a woman with a disability" card (i.e. a pyschopath who happens to have ovaries) any time the law came anywhere near her - until eventually I moved interstate.
So I'm really, very keenly aware of how these things can be abused.
But the real issue is economic equality. Everyone, regardless of race, religion etc. etc. who pays for a service should get the same value for money from that service. That is at the core of anti-discrimination legislation. Everyone who pays to play an mmo deserves to get the same value for money. That doesn't happen if you let things like "hate-speech" slide.
And the real question you should be asking, is does anyone really need to mouth off with hate speech to enjoy these games? It seems to me that it's taking friendly competition to a fairly dark place.
Nobody needs to, this is correct. Nobody needs to act like a fool in any circumstance. However its almost inevitable that someone does, and it seems like simply saying "No you cant do this" encourages some people to do it even more!
Im rather skeptical of legislation whether via a government or via a service, where it pertains to my freedom of speech and action. Not because Im going to go around burning crosses and writing crazy songs like this guy, but because I may be reprimanded for my particular mode of expression including such an example in order to further highlight the dangerousness of the topic at hand!
Was my speech hateful? Not even close. I have no hate nor personal issue with anybody here, for any reason. But some moderator could come along at any moment and slap me with a ban stick for "hate speech" because my reply included a taboo word, phrase, or in this case link to a video another poster might find offensive if viewed in the appropriate context. Edit: In fact --- I thought about this after the fact, and I dont trust another user here to not get upset over that link, so I changed it to a wiki page!
The point Im trying to make is, once you start asking someone else to police one of your activities, you ask them to police all of your activities. While hate speech is objectionable, losing the ability to accurately express yourself is more objectionable.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
The problem I have with censoring hate speech is that it doesnt change the hate it just makes it harder for others to find.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Actually it makes it easier for others to find. If people cannot discuss a subject freely, then any discussion on that subject at all has its volume artificially turned up.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
Players should have to wear a shock collar when playing. That way when they start with the hate the devs can give them a verbal warning then a three second shock each time. Ah, good old behavioral modification. Since their freedom loving parents are to busy not caring the now neccesary socialist state will have to step in for "a more peaceful and productive society."
Well, to be honest I can't say that I agree with you. I believe in free speech. But I also believe in those restrictions that we have on free speech. I mean, we are protected from those who would yell fire in crowded movie theaters. We should not have to be subjected to racist garbage while trying to play a game. I get that that may be enjoyable for them, but at the same time there are usually children playing. While I don't agree with children playing teen and mature rated games it happens. We should be mindful of that and we should respect that we have an impact on what those children think and feel.
www.ryzom.com
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is not the same as saying a racial slur. Yelling fire has the potential to cause panic and physically harm someone. If someone is delicate enough to actually be phyisically hurt by a racial slur, they have bigger problems than a handful of racists. I would highly recommend to that person getting off the internet and seeking some professional help.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
The core of the problem right here.
Now if only we could fix people, problem solved..yayyyy!
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
Alas, these days I fear more and more this may indeed be the case. When I was younger I used to think, everyone was like me: just wanting to get along well with others, finding peace and harmony, learning about the world.
Maybe the today outdated view that some humans are just bad people by themselves, is indeed more true than we admit. We want to live in a world where all can be solved, where all is psychology and explainable. But maybe some people just are twisted and ignorant and there is nothing we can do. *sigh*
Maybe indeed it is so.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Irony is fun.
As to the rest, if you check a few pages back I fully clarified my stance on hate speech. I'm not for it. The flip side of that is that I'm against running to tattle every time something doesn't sit right. Handle it like a grown up.
If a dish in a resteraunt offends my palate, I don't order it anymore. I don't sue anyone because my taste buds were assaulted, I simply find something to replace the horrible taste and never order the item again. I hate raw foods, therefore as a thinking being there is an entire food service category that I ignore much to my daughter's annoyance(she's half japanese). Since I hate it, there is no logical reason for me to acknowledge that sushi resteraunts exist let alone patronize them.
I'm an artist, as such my entire motive is expression regardless who gets all butt hurt over the images I produce. As with television and radio the public are free to change the channel and look at something else. By all means ignore my artwork. It takes less than three seconds in any given online game to ignore someone dumb.
I can tell you I ignore people far more often for being illiterate, or *gasp* retarded than I do for hateful speech, simply because that is my personal pet peeve.
And before anyone jumps on it: "retarded" is not hate speech, it hasn't been applied to anyone who was physically or mentally deficient in more than two decades. Get over it.
And unfortunately, against all odds and Darwin's theory to the contrary, it seems more and more that the weak have inherited the earth...
Interesting debate that raises lots of cool questions and which all of us gamers have had direct experience of.
Straight to the OP title statement: Yes, I do think hate speech corrodes online video game experience.
Hate speech is the specific term used by the OP and it is in a different ballpark from from childish namecalling. Hate speech is: "speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone based on his/her race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability." Hate speech is something I have rarely experienced in real life, but when I did (racist skinheads in Britain in the 1970s) it was pretty horrible and definitely memorable. But with the mass appeal of mmorpgs and online games, hate speech is something I have experienced with alarming regularity online.
We have to be careful, though. For example, the Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle - who I love - recently got into hot water over jokes made about down syndrome kids during his recent comedy tour. While I personally feel he went too far with this joke and deserves all the subsequent bad publicity he received, I wouldn't call it "hate speech" and it hasn't - fortunately - been labelled as such by the people who complained or the media storm that followed. The keywords defining "hate speech" is that toxic combination of wilfully trying to "intimidate", "degrade" and "incite violence" and on those terms it is obvious that Frankie Boyle was just making some tasteles and lame jokes for cheap shock value and that it meant nothing more than that. So I would say that we have to reserve the word "Hate Speech" only for those circumstances where it is obvious we are in the presence of wilfully malicous hate speech.
Most of the bad behaviour I see online is just childish namecalling and retarded attention seeking (trolling) and sure the best response to this is either a cutting remark to shame them into growing up or just using ingame tools to put them on ignore. I think a lot of the posters who use macho language about growing a pair or having thick skins or not crying to mommy had this level of bad behavior in mind when they wrote their posts. I think they need to review the definition of hate speech and realise how this is different from being called carrot head or lard ass or something.
So, to conclude on the issue of hate speech in mmorpgs. I do think we have the tools to deal with it ingame and I also think the mmorpg authorities are proactive about this issue when it arises. But I have seen it with such frequency in mmorpgs that when I take an extended break from mmorpgs the existence of of hate speech in the games I play is usually another reason why I extend my "retirement" from mmorpgs for another few months.
Regards
melmoth
typo ed
Well said.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
I actually support the right to express hate speech, but I am not going to be one of these hypocrits that say "words are words man, they mean nothing." If that is true, then you would not care if I called your own child racist or infamitory names in front of you. Because, words are just words.
As a long time troll I understand one fact, words are everything baby. Words can drive people to kill and words can clam people. It has always been this way. Back in the hard old days, when men were men and words "meant nothing," Hitler calling various ethnic groups rodents/subhumans drove men to commit genocide. See words are the most powerful thing on this planet.
Now why do I support the expression of hate speech? Because I don't believe that people have the right to control thought., people should have the right to express themselves no matter how vile or dangerous. But if you want to punch someone in the back of the head who called you a racial slur, I would'nt tell.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Words have no power over anyone. That someone can't control their own reaction to words("driven" to violence) is not the fault of the words, or the speaker, but the person with the mental defect that makes them violent. If you're predisposed to violence, then words aren't going to make you violent any more than a smell or picture or taste or skin rash. You'll be violent because your brain is broken, or you lack self restraint. Words are always innocent since words have no intent.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people with guns. Guns have no intent of their own.
Then again, I understand how magnets work, so I'm not sure why I'm even responding...
Hopefully they don't go so far to become as annoying as unisoft's DRM if they try to do something like this, as long as they don't go to the extreme, I support this movement. I am sick of tired of hearing shit like this in real life, and in the many online games. People are becoming more stupider and stupider, that in the future... people think sucide is cool and life is such a fucking taboo, or something worse then that. I am just tired of seeing this immaturity rises, it just remind me of those idiots in middle school who bully people and attempt to just bash their face in for no fucking reason. Just even thinking of this shit really make me sick...
Sometimes I wish there was an important test that you have to take, a test of maturity and intelligence... those who fail be unable to breed in the future, this help prevent more ignorant people from coming into this world and start wrecking havok. Some people will see this as barbaric and see it as unholy, but to me, I say it's a must need so that the idiots can just kill themselves off by violance and gang warfare and let the smart one's lives.