I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I really don't understand people that have the urge to bash some kinda MMO just bcause its not fitting their standards.
I never played WOW and i'm never gonna.. but it kinda gets to my nerve that every idiot try to bash WOW just because it's out there and its the biggest.... all i can say to all those attention whores who try to sound like they know it all about MMO is to please STFU have fun and let others have fun the way they want.... BIG THANKS
I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot.
Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance.
You're still going on about this? I would say something about ppl's quality of life but a mod will appear and tell me not to so I won't.
How you define an mmorpg is purely up to you. We each have our own opinion. To the person who keeps trying to sell us on Eve, it sucks. You mine something, make something, fire on some ships and go back and do it all over again. At least with the game you're bashing you get to play a role other than a spaceship. Yes, it can take a lot of players at once because there's no graphics beyond a starry sky.
We're on an mmorpg site. If WoW wasn't an mmorpg, don't you think they'd know. There's a lot of other sites similar to this. They all say WoW is an mmorpg. They can't all be wrong.
It doesn't matter if it was better way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth or years on.
I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot.
Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
I thought Raspoutin the topic was: ... WOW is an mmorpg. The question was not WHICH kind of mmorpg ...
For someone who didn't even know 240 people were battling it out all over Lake Wintergrasp each night, it strikes me you still want to go on with this discussion (oh btw I DID do the count yesterday at 08.45 PM - the Alliance had 3 Raids, 2 full and 1 one with 3 open places left, that's just 117 on ONE faction and we lost). Not uncommon for a weekend night to have such 200+ battles btw.
But hear me out:
In EVE I can't even leave my cockpit chair and I don't even have feet or legs.
In WOW, I can craft my own motorbikes and SELL them on the Auction house while flying ALL over Northrend, Outland and soon Azeroth (CATA) with my personal crafted helicopters and or crafted flying carpets....
Question: what was that "sandbox" definition again ?
See my point ?
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Originally posted by Rasputin Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Rasputin
Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Rasputin
...
I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot. Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance. Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox. That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world. No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
The topic that we started was about WoW not being a MMORPG, it has nothing to do with the play style, sandbox or not ain't the question here. What the hell are you trying to archive here? Want to tell us only sandbox games are true "MMORPG" and everything that resembles the EQ formula ain't?
Do i have problems with sandbox games? Hell no, i just can't get attached to them that doesn't mean i despise them or don't see the value, i just find the "EQ" formula more entertaining. Stop twisting my words to your preference, this is starting to get really stupid.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
I thought Raspoutin the topic was: ... WOW is an mmorpg. The question was not WHICH kind of mmorpg ...
For someone who didn't even know 240 people were battling it out all over Lake Wintergrasp each night, it strikes me you still want to go on with this discussion (oh btw I DID do the count yesterday at 08.45 PM - the Alliance had 3 Raids, 2 full and 1 one with 3 open places left, that's just 117 on ONE faction and we lost). Not uncommon for a weekend night to have such 200+ battles btw.
But hear me out:
In EVE I can't even leave my cockpit chair and I don't even have feet or legs.
In WOW, I can craft my own motorbikes and SELL them on the Auction house while flying ALL over Northrend, Outland and soon Azeroth (CATA) with my personal crafted helicopters and or crafted flying carpets....
Question: what was that "sandbox" definition again ?
See my point ?
lets try this comparision of your with original wow now:where are the incentive wintergrasp has: in our world raid(often with pvp)
where is that in wotlk ,it isnt there the thing is the reward there are just there for show powder to the eye.i dont condone the content there today!
i just ask one thing bring the same incentive you put for icc dungeon,for wintergrasp etc but do it where we had it in vanilla wow (open world)the fact that you can get ganked isnt like by some but for crying it out loud there are a lot that love it.
when i go in say arena and it didnt go well that day,we could have done this:often we used to go for a world raid dragon fight yes we made sure to be close rto org so horde would come that is the sole reason these world raid were way more fun then duneon raid after all.(never happened lol blizzard didnt put any reward in world at endgame.
see we ask both !not one or the other !for them its easy to verify what player did and all hell most at blizzard probably worked long enough hours to solve these issue to know what i talk about .
makes instanced content with reward ok!now do the same with the world the way we used to have it in vanilla wow thats all gamer ask!
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
I thought Raspoutin the topic was: ... WOW is an mmorpg. The question was not WHICH kind of mmorpg ...
For someone who didn't even know 240 people were battling it out all over Lake Wintergrasp each night, it strikes me you still want to go on with this discussion (oh btw I DID do the count yesterday at 08.45 PM - the Alliance had 3 Raids, 2 full and 1 one with 3 open places left, that's just 117 on ONE faction and we lost). Not uncommon for a weekend night to have such 200+ battles btw.
But hear me out:
In EVE I can't even leave my cockpit chair and I don't even have feet or legs.
In WOW, I can craft my own motorbikes and SELL them on the Auction house while flying ALL over Northrend, Outland and soon Azeroth (CATA) with my personal crafted helicopters and or crafted flying carpets....
Question: what was that "sandbox" definition again ?
See my point ?
Yes, that is what the topic is.
My argument still stands for Vanilla WoW and up to at least BC.
However, with Alpha's description of Wintergrasp, I agree, that we are closing in on the MMO.
Even though, I still believe we are a bit too close to FPS'es, seeing that there is still no lasting impact on the world.
If BF2 had 256 instead of 64 players (not unreasonable, Joint Operations has 128), would it then qualify as an MMO? Where is the limit? WoW - with or without Wintergrasp - is still moving dangerously close to standard multiplayer games.
That you cannot see this, can only be ascribed your deep infatuation with EQ-clones, and your disregard for sandboxes, even though it is the latter, that really distinguishes themselves from the standard multiplayer games.
I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot.
Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
The topic that we started was about WoW not being a MMORPG, it has nothing to do with the play style, sandbox or not ain't the question here. What the hell are you trying to archive here? Want to tell us only sandbox games are true "MMORPG" and everything that resembles the EQ formula ain't?
Do i have problems with sandbox games? Hell no, i just can't get attached to them that doesn't mean i despise them or don't see the value, i just find the "EQ" formula more entertaining. Stop twisting my words to your preference, this is starting to get really stupid.
But it does. The more power you give the people over the world, the more sandboxy it becomes, and the more it moves away from standard multiplayer games. Ability to control the world is coded directly into the name: Sandbox.
You could have a leveling and questing system (ie. the EQ system) in a sandbox game. It would not be how I would do it, but it would be possible.
The Sandbox definition runs at another level than what you want it to. And IMO it is what is needed to make this genre stand apart.
one thing is sure!there is one HUGE MARKET part that was covered by blizzard before (and now isnt covered by anybody!and now i havent seen one game pick up the slack so this mean, the first awsome title to do that will probably win by default !there were promising title like mortal or others but in the end too many issue to cover that market!
i wonder witch game will pick these gamer since rtight now we are pretty mutch in stasis waiting for what we had in original wow,eq1 etc!
did i say this is a huge amount of ex wow player!(original wow)
In fact, since Sandbox is a layer of abstraction over EQ-model, the discussion should be sandbox vs. static world instead of sandbox vs. EQ-model.
What I see in your desciption(s) is a basic question of, linear vs non. Which really has nothing to do with the term MMORPG. Neither is exclusive to the genre, as either can be a part of it. WOW is as much a MMO as UO or SWG were. I find either design to be acceptable, as long as I like the game in and of itself.
Both sub-genre's also possess their own strengths as well as their own weaknesses. While you may be locked into a certain path to a degree in EQ-style MMO's, you're also given a more detailed story. Every action has some sort of motivation behind it (though the imagination in some cases is extremely lacking).
On the flip side in sandbox mmo's, you are allowed much more freedom in how you approach the game. Which while this is a great strength to possess. Opens avenues for boring, tedious and menial tasks, which don't even offer a simple story or motivation behind them. Sandbox games tend to leave the fun up to the players themselves, which for some brings the question of, what do I do for fun..hmm..? With no real answer to be found.
This isn't a question of whether they enjoy an MMO or not, it's whether they enjoy a free-form experience or a directed experience, which either is of no exclusiveness in any particular genre.
Most genres have a more open-ended option as well as a more directed one. From strategy to FPS to RPG. Each has a set of games that fall into either option.
IF you see similarities in the eq model toward the more directed single player experiences, that's no surprise. However you should also notice a few similarities in regard to sandbox games as well, as there are single player sandbox games, and plenty of them.
The massiveness comes from the technology being applied, which is where the term was derived. MMO's are called MMO's because developers have applied such technology into their designs. The rest is moot IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The fact that this debate continued for 22 pages means i over-estimated the rationality of most of the people on this site.
It isn't about how you feel.
It isn't about what you think is right.
It isn't about what you want.
World of Warcraft is an MMORPG by the definition of MMORPG.com
Therefore, it shall be classified as an MMORPG regardless of your opinion.
Changing its definition won't change that it is the most successful MMORPG,
changing its definition won't make the other second rate MMORPGs any better,
so why the hell is this even being argued?
Signed. Totallly agree.
On the other hand, from a different perspective, this subject that at first seemed ludicrous and not worth even a single page, has reached the stunning amount of 200+ posts. Clearly it's been a subject a lot of people liked to discuss. How is that for entertainment value?
Entertainment : 8/10 Desinformation: 10/10.
You can get the same number of reactions by stating WOW is the work of Satan: it destroys social lives and marriages.
Discuss...
I don't really know how my post was dis-informative. Yes it was dramatic and over the top, but it had valid points of reason
What you're comparing it to is like saying even though i'm acting like Stephen Colbert i'm less rational than Glenn Beck. (which can never be true)
Eh? You won't get any answer from me on that, I agreed with your post. I guess you need to have the other guy, but I don't think even he was commenting upon your post but more on the general vibe of the thread :-)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My argument still stands for Vanilla WoW and up to at least BC.
However, with Alpha's description of Wintergrasp, I agree, that we are closing in on the MMO.
Even though, I still believe we are a bit too close to FPS'es, seeing that there is still no lasting impact on the world.
Got to disagree with that. The way Wintergrasp works is very sand box.
Sand box does not mean the results of your side's actions are set in stone and never change again. You make a change in the world which lasts until someone else comes along and changes it themselves. Which is how WG works. Horde controls the area (and its access to a dungeon), until Alliance wins it back.
WG is far from perfect sand box, as you cannot build or even permanently destroy anything - you just gain or lose control of the territory and its facilities, but for a non-sand box game it's a good substitute. Not to mention the set in stone schedule for the area to be contested. Ideally for sand box content, the area would be vulnerable all the time.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Eh? You won't get any answer from me on that, I agreed with your post. I guess you need to have the other guy, but I don't think even he was commenting upon your post but more on the general vibe of the thread :-)
Yeah --- that was actually meant for him--- i just didn't want to dig through all the crap to find his original post. :P
I'll fix that. ~
Anyways, I am surprised i've kept my sanity through this discussion instead of just trollin'
In fact, since Sandbox is a layer of abstraction over EQ-model, the discussion should be sandbox vs. static world instead of sandbox vs. EQ-model.
What I see in your desciption(s) is a basic question of, linear vs non. Which really has nothing to do with the term MMORPG. Neither is exclusive to the genre, as either can be a part of it. WOW is as much a MMO as UO or SWG were. I find either design to be acceptable, as long as I like the game in and of itself.
Both sub-genre's also possess their own strengths as well as their own weaknesses. While you may be locked into a certain path to a degree in EQ-style MMO's, you're also given a more detailed story. Every action has some sort of motivation behind it (though the imagination in some cases is extremely lacking).
On the flip side in sandbox mmo's, you are allowed much more freedom in how you approach the game. Which while this is a great strength to possess. Opens avenues for boring, tedious and menial tasks, which don't even offer a simple story or motivation behind them. Sandbox games tend to leave the fun up to the players themselves, which for some brings the question of, what do I do for fun..hmm..? With no real answer to be found.
This isn't a question of whether they enjoy an MMO or not, it's whether they enjoy a free-form experience or a directed experience, which either is of no exclusiveness in any particular genre.
Most genres have a more open-ended option as well as a more directed one. From strategy to FPS to RPG. Each has a set of games that fall into either option.
IF you see similarities in the eq model toward the more directed single player experiences, that's no surprise. However you should also notice a few similarities in regard to sandbox games as well, as there are single player sandbox games, and plenty of them.
The massiveness comes from the technology being applied, which is where the term was derived. MMO's are called MMO's because developers have applied such technology into their designs. The rest is moot IMO.
Well argued, and I agree with you at some level.
However, IMO WoW and other clones have to distinguish themselves from standard online games before they can reach a new category. And IMO they have trouble doing this.
WoW isn't even the worst. Games like DDO, CoX and other extremely instanced games are more clearly not an MMO after my definitions.
WoW with it's open world is a bit more unclear. It has the technology to be an MMO, but so far, only the level-up part has been so. Endgame was not MMO in any way. It may have changed with the new open-world PvP (Wintergrasp), I don't know, since I didn't play it. But from how it was described, it seems that WoW is moving more towards MMO than it was.
In fact, since Sandbox is a layer of abstraction over EQ-model, the discussion should be sandbox vs. static world instead of sandbox vs. EQ-model.
What I see in your desciption(s) is a basic question of, linear vs non. Which really has nothing to do with the term MMORPG. Neither is exclusive to the genre, as either can be a part of it. WOW is as much a MMO as UO or SWG were. I find either design to be acceptable, as long as I like the game in and of itself.
Both sub-genre's also possess their own strengths as well as their own weaknesses. While you may be locked into a certain path to a degree in EQ-style MMO's, you're also given a more detailed story. Every action has some sort of motivation behind it (though the imagination in some cases is extremely lacking).
On the flip side in sandbox mmo's, you are allowed much more freedom in how you approach the game. Which while this is a great strength to possess. Opens avenues for boring, tedious and menial tasks, which don't even offer a simple story or motivation behind them. Sandbox games tend to leave the fun up to the players themselves, which for some brings the question of, what do I do for fun..hmm..? With no real answer to be found.
This isn't a question of whether they enjoy an MMO or not, it's whether they enjoy a free-form experience or a directed experience, which either is of no exclusiveness in any particular genre.
Most genres have a more open-ended option as well as a more directed one. From strategy to FPS to RPG. Each has a set of games that fall into either option.
IF you see similarities in the eq model toward the more directed single player experiences, that's no surprise. However you should also notice a few similarities in regard to sandbox games as well, as there are single player sandbox games, and plenty of them.
The massiveness comes from the technology being applied, which is where the term was derived. MMO's are called MMO's because developers have applied such technology into their designs. The rest is moot IMO.
Well argued, and I agree with you at some level.
However, IMO WoW and other clones have to distinguish themselves from standard online games before they can reach a new category. And IMO they have trouble doing this.
WoW isn't even the worst. Games like DDO, CoX and other extremely instanced games are more clearly not an MMO after my definitions.
WoW with it's open world is a bit more unclear. It has the technology to be an MMO, but so far, only the level-up part has been so. Endgame was not MMO in any way. It may have changed with the new open-world PvP (Wintergrasp), I don't know, since I didn't play it. But from how it was described, it seems that WoW is moving more towards MMO than it was.
Maybe we can simply interchange massively with massive
Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
Because it is a Massive Online Game that involves Role-Playing,
In fact, since Sandbox is a layer of abstraction over EQ-model, the discussion should be sandbox vs. static world instead of sandbox vs. EQ-model.
What I see in your desciption(s) is a basic question of, linear vs non. Which really has nothing to do with the term MMORPG. Neither is exclusive to the genre, as either can be a part of it. WOW is as much a MMO as UO or SWG were. I find either design to be acceptable, as long as I like the game in and of itself.
Both sub-genre's also possess their own strengths as well as their own weaknesses. While you may be locked into a certain path to a degree in EQ-style MMO's, you're also given a more detailed story. Every action has some sort of motivation behind it (though the imagination in some cases is extremely lacking).
On the flip side in sandbox mmo's, you are allowed much more freedom in how you approach the game. Which while this is a great strength to possess. Opens avenues for boring, tedious and menial tasks, which don't even offer a simple story or motivation behind them. Sandbox games tend to leave the fun up to the players themselves, which for some brings the question of, what do I do for fun..hmm..? With no real answer to be found.
This isn't a question of whether they enjoy an MMO or not, it's whether they enjoy a free-form experience or a directed experience, which either is of no exclusiveness in any particular genre.
Most genres have a more open-ended option as well as a more directed one. From strategy to FPS to RPG. Each has a set of games that fall into either option.
IF you see similarities in the eq model toward the more directed single player experiences, that's no surprise. However you should also notice a few similarities in regard to sandbox games as well, as there are single player sandbox games, and plenty of them.
The massiveness comes from the technology being applied, which is where the term was derived. MMO's are called MMO's because developers have applied such technology into their designs. The rest is moot IMO.
Well argued, and I agree with you at some level.
However, IMO WoW and other clones have to distinguish themselves from standard online games before they can reach a new category. And IMO they have trouble doing this.
WoW isn't even the worst. Games like DDO, CoX and other extremely instanced games are more clearly not an MMO after my definitions.
WoW with it's open world is a bit more unclear. It has the technology to be an MMO, but so far, only the level-up part has been so. Endgame was not MMO in any way. It may have changed with the new open-world PvP (Wintergrasp), I don't know, since I didn't play it. But from how it was described, it seems that WoW is moving more towards MMO than it was.
when a simple game like aika manage to outdo wow(in the aspect the op mean!it says it all
500 mb download insanelly great title if it hadnt been for the fact i cant go in the global version i would be in there
(no i wont touch the gpotato version !there is always something with them .right hand not seeing the action of left hand then saying sorry!on this time gpotato scrapped a very good chanceand worst we will be ipblocked by the global version
so that title is out for me but none the less they show the basic of what constitute a good mmorpg nothing more nothing less(ok the 5 carbon copied map could have used a little imagination(diferent color)but on average dam i had more fun in the rift and other nation then i had in wow since wotlk was lunched!
when a simple game like aika manage to outdo wow(in the aspect the op mean!it says it all
500 mb download insanelly great title if it hadnt been for the fact i cant go in the global version i would be in there
(no i wont touch the gpotato version !there is always something with them .right hand not seeing the action of left hand then saying sorry!on this time gpotato scrapped a very good chanceand worst we will be ipblocked by the global version
so that title is out for me but none the less they show the basic of what constitute a good mmorpg nothing more nothing less(ok the 5 carbon copied map could have used a little imagination(diferent color)but on average dam i had more fun in the rift and other nation then i had in wow since wotlk was lunched!
Aika is crappy--just like most other MMOs on the market.
They're all buggy and fail to immerse me in the slightest bit.
I'd rather look at bright and colorful landscapes than a screen of shit-tinted browns.
JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKED IT MORE DOESN'T REVOKE WoW's STATUS AS AN MMORPG.
when a simple game like aika manage to outdo wow(in the aspect the op mean!it says it all
500 mb download insanelly great title if it hadnt been for the fact i cant go in the global version i would be in there
(no i wont touch the gpotato version !there is always something with them .right hand not seeing the action of left hand then saying sorry!on this time gpotato scrapped a very good chanceand worst we will be ipblocked by the global version
so that title is out for me but none the less they show the basic of what constitute a good mmorpg nothing more nothing less(ok the 5 carbon copied map could have used a little imagination(diferent color)but on average dam i had more fun in the rift and other nation then i had in wow since wotlk was lunched!
Aika is crappy--just like most other MMOs on the market.
They're all buggy and fail to immerse me in the slightest bit.
I'd rather look at bright and colorful landscapes than a screen of shit-tinted browns.
JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKED IT MORE DOESN'T REVOKE WoW's STATUS AS AN MMORPG.
i played it since the lunch of open beta till the 7 of april and i never had issue with it (my only issue was with gpotato)
i use w7 64 (installed the game in the program not on the program x86 ort whatever its called!
when a simple game like aika manage to outdo wow(in the aspect the op mean!it says it all
500 mb download insanelly great title if it hadnt been for the fact i cant go in the global version i would be in there
(no i wont touch the gpotato version !there is always something with them .right hand not seeing the action of left hand then saying sorry!on this time gpotato scrapped a very good chanceand worst we will be ipblocked by the global version
so that title is out for me but none the less they show the basic of what constitute a good mmorpg nothing more nothing less(ok the 5 carbon copied map could have used a little imagination(diferent color)but on average dam i had more fun in the rift and other nation then i had in wow since wotlk was lunched!
Aika is crappy--just like most other MMOs on the market.
They're all buggy and fail to immerse me in the slightest bit.
I'd rather look at bright and colorful landscapes than a screen of shit-tinted browns.
JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKED IT MORE DOESN'T REVOKE WoW's STATUS AS AN MMORPG.
i played it since the lunch of open beta till the 7 of april and i never had issue with it (my only issue was with gpotato)
i use w7 64 (installed the game in the program not on the program x86 ort whatever its called!
Even if you don't see any glaring issues with it--It is pretty easy to tell the quality of the coding behind it by playing it for an hour or two. I don't know if I'll be able to explain it to you--but compared to WoW -- it is sub-par.
I know, I know, ridiculous claim, but hear me out. In the raw sense of the term "MMORPG", yes WoW and its ilk fall into that category.
But where the glaring difference comes in, is in the ideals of what an MMO should be. MMOs, since their inception have really been pushing the boundaries with gameplay and bridging the gap between player and developer. These worlds, embodied in these games, exist to be conquered by the playerbase. It started with adventuring together in groups, to solving puzzles together, defeating bosses together. Then comes along crafting, social scheduling, interaction with different groups (guild politics), and PvP.
Every new game, every different feature is pushing this genre forward by giving the player more power, more custimization, more individuality among different game types.
An MMORPG is a game that exists solely as a world for players to shape. Player interaction between themselves, the game world, and each other are integral to what makes an MMO an MMO.
Games like WoW and other PVE focused games are infantile MMOs, not TRUE MMOs. The sandbox games are the closest. Games like EVE, Darkfall, Wurm, Love, etc. allow the players to change the course of the game. Individuals, not developers. YES there can be story in a sandbox, WHY is there no hybrid MMO. With EVE's reintroduction to live events putting more steps into advancing stories depending on player input, we are taking mosre steps to advance the culture of MMOs and player involvement.
This is what makes an MMO an MMO, the players with the power.
Sorry but you are clusless.
WoW Is an MMO , and an RPG to those who chose to play it that way the options are all there just a lot of players do not want to take those options or are just plain lazy.
New Feature sare not moving the genre forward it has been going backwards for years. This is what is killing the genre.
Your definition of an MMO is miles out , the reality is that these games are about longevity and persistancy wolrds in which charachters can be developed and grow. This has changed drastically in a way that the original definition is mis-used, endgame in a month is not longevity and for all intents and purposed we have a lot of people wanting an End Game Arena bloodfest and thinking they are playing an MMO this is not the case at all.
Player involvement and com munity has been near removed from most MMOs these days it just does not exist a Guild is not a community....
The community and World makes the MMO , not the players with so called Power trying to exploit game mechanics and screw players over.
The Genre is all but Dead as it was known, due topeople like yourself who just do not get what playing a game in a persistant world is all about.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Comments
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I really don't understand people that have the urge to bash some kinda MMO just bcause its not fitting their standards.
I never played WOW and i'm never gonna.. but it kinda gets to my nerve that every idiot try to bash WOW just because it's out there and its the biggest.... all i can say to all those attention whores who try to sound like they know it all about MMO is to please STFU have fun and let others have fun the way they want.... BIG THANKS
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot.
Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance.
You're still going on about this? I would say something about ppl's quality of life but a mod will appear and tell me not to so I won't.
How you define an mmorpg is purely up to you. We each have our own opinion. To the person who keeps trying to sell us on Eve, it sucks. You mine something, make something, fire on some ships and go back and do it all over again. At least with the game you're bashing you get to play a role other than a spaceship. Yes, it can take a lot of players at once because there's no graphics beyond a starry sky.
We're on an mmorpg site. If WoW wasn't an mmorpg, don't you think they'd know. There's a lot of other sites similar to this. They all say WoW is an mmorpg. They can't all be wrong.
It doesn't matter if it was better way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth or years on.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
I thought Raspoutin the topic was: ... WOW is an mmorpg. The question was not WHICH kind of mmorpg ...
For someone who didn't even know 240 people were battling it out all over Lake Wintergrasp each night, it strikes me you still want to go on with this discussion (oh btw I DID do the count yesterday at 08.45 PM - the Alliance had 3 Raids, 2 full and 1 one with 3 open places left, that's just 117 on ONE faction and we lost). Not uncommon for a weekend night to have such 200+ battles btw.
But hear me out:
In EVE I can't even leave my cockpit chair and I don't even have feet or legs.
In WOW, I can craft my own motorbikes and SELL them on the Auction house while flying ALL over Northrend, Outland and soon Azeroth (CATA) with my personal crafted helicopters and or crafted flying carpets....
Question: what was that "sandbox" definition again ?
See my point ?
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I feel sorry for you, if you have not tried better than WoW. And then I will also forgive you your ignorance. If you had tried something else than the EQ model, you would know what we were talking about.
You make assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, thats ignorance. What i said is pretty basic human relationships. I don't know how you conclude anything from that but thats fine, i am member on the mmorpg.com forum since 2003 that alone should give you a little hint that i play mmo a bit longer then WoW. Please, if you make assumptions do them with a bit of logic.
I saw your date, but my conclusion stands, based on your posts. I don't believe you have played anything but EQ clones.
I did try some sandbox games like AO, EvE, UO, Fallen Earth and SWG (i played this one for a bit longer around 1 year) but they couldn't hold my attention for very long but thats my own preference. Now you can try and attack my tastes but that would just make you look like a bigot.
Just look, you made a assumption again without any hard data or proof, tell me if that doesn't make you a prime example of ignorance.
Ok, so let us just conclude that your taste is so firmly founded in the EQ-clone paradigm, that you cannot see the value in the sandbox.
That is why you don't understand (or at least value) what we talk about, when we talk about persistence in the form of giving people the power over the world.
No matter what, you cannot argue against the fact, that the EQ-clones have come dangerously close to standard games, because the world has become irrelevant to the players, because they own no part in it.
The topic that we started was about WoW not being a MMORPG, it has nothing to do with the play style, sandbox or not ain't the question here. What the hell are you trying to archive here? Want to tell us only sandbox games are true "MMORPG" and everything that resembles the EQ formula ain't?
Do i have problems with sandbox games? Hell no, i just can't get attached to them that doesn't mean i despise them or don't see the value, i just find the "EQ" formula more entertaining. Stop twisting my words to your preference, this is starting to get really stupid.
lets try this comparision of your with original wow now:where are the incentive wintergrasp has: in our world raid(often with pvp)
where is that in wotlk ,it isnt there the thing is the reward there are just there for show powder to the eye.i dont condone the content there today!
i just ask one thing bring the same incentive you put for icc dungeon,for wintergrasp etc but do it where we had it in vanilla wow (open world)the fact that you can get ganked isnt like by some but for crying it out loud there are a lot that love it.
when i go in say arena and it didnt go well that day,we could have done this:often we used to go for a world raid dragon fight yes we made sure to be close rto org so horde would come that is the sole reason these world raid were way more fun then duneon raid after all.(never happened lol blizzard didnt put any reward in world at endgame.
see we ask both !not one or the other !for them its easy to verify what player did and all hell most at blizzard probably worked long enough hours to solve these issue to know what i talk about .
makes instanced content with reward ok!now do the same with the world the way we used to have it in vanilla wow thats all gamer ask!
Then go argue with Blizzard, not with everyone else
Yes, that is what the topic is.
My argument still stands for Vanilla WoW and up to at least BC.
However, with Alpha's description of Wintergrasp, I agree, that we are closing in on the MMO.
Even though, I still believe we are a bit too close to FPS'es, seeing that there is still no lasting impact on the world.
If BF2 had 256 instead of 64 players (not unreasonable, Joint Operations has 128), would it then qualify as an MMO? Where is the limit? WoW - with or without Wintergrasp - is still moving dangerously close to standard multiplayer games.
That you cannot see this, can only be ascribed your deep infatuation with EQ-clones, and your disregard for sandboxes, even though it is the latter, that really distinguishes themselves from the standard multiplayer games.
But it does. The more power you give the people over the world, the more sandboxy it becomes, and the more it moves away from standard multiplayer games. Ability to control the world is coded directly into the name: Sandbox.
You could have a leveling and questing system (ie. the EQ system) in a sandbox game. It would not be how I would do it, but it would be possible.
The Sandbox definition runs at another level than what you want it to. And IMO it is what is needed to make this genre stand apart.
In fact, since Sandbox is a layer of abstraction over EQ-model, the discussion should be sandbox vs. static world instead of sandbox vs. EQ-model.
one thing is sure!there is one HUGE MARKET part that was covered by blizzard before (and now isnt covered by anybody!and now i havent seen one game pick up the slack so this mean, the first awsome title to do that will probably win by default !there were promising title like mortal or others but in the end too many issue to cover that market!
i wonder witch game will pick these gamer since rtight now we are pretty mutch in stasis waiting for what we had in original wow,eq1 etc!
did i say this is a huge amount of ex wow player!(original wow)
What I see in your desciption(s) is a basic question of, linear vs non. Which really has nothing to do with the term MMORPG. Neither is exclusive to the genre, as either can be a part of it. WOW is as much a MMO as UO or SWG were. I find either design to be acceptable, as long as I like the game in and of itself.
Both sub-genre's also possess their own strengths as well as their own weaknesses. While you may be locked into a certain path to a degree in EQ-style MMO's, you're also given a more detailed story. Every action has some sort of motivation behind it (though the imagination in some cases is extremely lacking).
On the flip side in sandbox mmo's, you are allowed much more freedom in how you approach the game. Which while this is a great strength to possess. Opens avenues for boring, tedious and menial tasks, which don't even offer a simple story or motivation behind them. Sandbox games tend to leave the fun up to the players themselves, which for some brings the question of, what do I do for fun..hmm..? With no real answer to be found.
This isn't a question of whether they enjoy an MMO or not, it's whether they enjoy a free-form experience or a directed experience, which either is of no exclusiveness in any particular genre.
Most genres have a more open-ended option as well as a more directed one. From strategy to FPS to RPG. Each has a set of games that fall into either option.
IF you see similarities in the eq model toward the more directed single player experiences, that's no surprise. However you should also notice a few similarities in regard to sandbox games as well, as there are single player sandbox games, and plenty of them.
The massiveness comes from the technology being applied, which is where the term was derived. MMO's are called MMO's because developers have applied such technology into their designs. The rest is moot IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Eh? You won't get any answer from me on that, I agreed with your post. I guess you need to have the other guy, but I don't think even he was commenting upon your post but more on the general vibe of the thread :-)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yeah --- that was actually meant for him--- i just didn't want to dig through all the crap to find his original post. :P
I'll fix that. ~
Anyways, I am surprised i've kept my sanity through this discussion instead of just trollin'
Well argued, and I agree with you at some level.
However, IMO WoW and other clones have to distinguish themselves from standard online games before they can reach a new category. And IMO they have trouble doing this.
WoW isn't even the worst. Games like DDO, CoX and other extremely instanced games are more clearly not an MMO after my definitions.
WoW with it's open world is a bit more unclear. It has the technology to be an MMO, but so far, only the level-up part has been so. Endgame was not MMO in any way. It may have changed with the new open-world PvP (Wintergrasp), I don't know, since I didn't play it. But from how it was described, it seems that WoW is moving more towards MMO than it was.
Maybe we can simply interchange massively with massive
Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
Because it is a Massive Online Game that involves Role-Playing,
and it is Multiplayer.
when a simple game like aika manage to outdo wow(in the aspect the op mean!it says it all
500 mb download insanelly great title if it hadnt been for the fact i cant go in the global version i would be in there
(no i wont touch the gpotato version !there is always something with them .right hand not seeing the action of left hand then saying sorry!on this time gpotato scrapped a very good chanceand worst we will be ipblocked by the global version
so that title is out for me but none the less they show the basic of what constitute a good mmorpg nothing more nothing less(ok the 5 carbon copied map could have used a little imagination(diferent color)but on average dam i had more fun in the rift and other nation then i had in wow since wotlk was lunched!
Aika is crappy--just like most other MMOs on the market.
They're all buggy and fail to immerse me in the slightest bit.
I'd rather look at bright and colorful landscapes than a screen of shit-tinted browns.
JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKED IT MORE DOESN'T REVOKE WoW's STATUS AS AN MMORPG.
i played it since the lunch of open beta till the 7 of april and i never had issue with it (my only issue was with gpotato)
i use w7 64 (installed the game in the program not on the program x86 ort whatever its called!
Even if you don't see any glaring issues with it--It is pretty easy to tell the quality of the coding behind it by playing it for an hour or two. I don't know if I'll be able to explain it to you--but compared to WoW -- it is sub-par.
Sorry but you are clusless.
WoW Is an MMO , and an RPG to those who chose to play it that way the options are all there just a lot of players do not want to take those options or are just plain lazy.
New Feature sare not moving the genre forward it has been going backwards for years. This is what is killing the genre.
Your definition of an MMO is miles out , the reality is that these games are about longevity and persistancy wolrds in which charachters can be developed and grow. This has changed drastically in a way that the original definition is mis-used, endgame in a month is not longevity and for all intents and purposed we have a lot of people wanting an End Game Arena bloodfest and thinking they are playing an MMO this is not the case at all.
Player involvement and com munity has been near removed from most MMOs these days it just does not exist a Guild is not a community....
The community and World makes the MMO , not the players with so called Power trying to exploit game mechanics and screw players over.
The Genre is all but Dead as it was known, due topeople like yourself who just do not get what playing a game in a persistant world is all about.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel