So let me get this straight, you think only the MMOs you enjoy can be considered MMOs. Anything that varies from the sandbox model is instantly labeled NOT an MMO.
Oh boy...
First of all, unlike FPS, action adventure games and plat-formers, the MMO genre is an incredibly varied genre. Yet one thing unites almost all MMOs: Multiplayer. Yes multiplayer. However, unlike the multiplayer in a co-op game like L4D, the multiplayer is more than just a lobby where you go into a level and try to get the highest score. The lobby and the level are combined into one, creating a world. The only exception I can think of would be Global Agenda (It's heavily instanced, but at the same time it's player driven world makes it the only true exception). So really anything that has this model of multiplayer in some way or another can be considered a MMO. This includes WoW. And EVE. And anything else that labels itself an MMO. It doesn't have to have a player driven world or to be run on a single server
Second, let's just look at the acronym MMO, and see if WoW has it:
Massively: Any way you look at it, WoW is MASSIVE. Player base, world size, amount of content. I don't need to argue this one.
Multiplayer: If you can play with other players, it's multiplayer.
Online: You do need an internet connection do you?
I think I won the argument. But that's my opinion :P
What is the difference between a 2D and a 3D lobby? Aren't both just a place to match up ppl?
That is more or less the socalled "open world" of WoW: A 3D lobby.
And what are ppl doing in WoW if not going for a "high score" (equipment? PvP win/loss ratio?). In many standard games you can gain additional accolades, medals, ranks etc. Not unlike WoW.
Can you really feel the MMO'iness of WoW, when you go into that 40-man PvP instance (20v20, less than most FPS games nowadays), that you are magically teleported to, from wherever you were? Out of nowhere, with no explanation? WoW doesn't even TRY to keep the illusion of being more than a game.
Massively has nothing to do with playerbase (Counterstrike playerbase is enormous). World size doesn't matter if it is not used or if it is extremely fragmented and instanced. For instance, if Guild Wars was expanded and expanded, it could reach the same land mass as WoW, but it would still not be an MMO.
You have given no arguments, that convinces me, that WoW is more of a massively multiplayer than BF2 or Joint Operations.
All those things are actually optional, you never need to set a foot into a instance. It's just profitable to do so, you can gain loot/honor in the open world.
EvE is also heavily instanced yes every damn sector is a damn instance and as soon as 300+ player collide in warfare you get the "UHAHAHAH Lagg crash zomfg omfg blobbing" threads in CAOD.
DId you see that Raspoutin guy doesn't even know WOW. ...
He talks above about 40 man instances in PvP (20 vs 20) while there are 2BG's which are actually 80 man (40vs40) now and an open world zone which actually is topped off at 240 people fighting.
That's 3 x 40 man Raids on each side, more than enough to satisfy the "massive" argument.
But does that really happen frequently, or was it a one-time only, because some ppl wanted to test it?
If, because of gameplay reasons, the massive play does not happen, then it is the same as not being in.
That's true, technically WoW is a MMO, or MMORPG, whatever.
But, as i said, in it you NEVER EVER EVER do something that's "massively multiplayer". You hang out with your few buddies. That goes against the very meaning of an MMO.
That's odd: every night in the Lake Wintergrasp zone there are fights of multiple Raids going on to conquer the fortress.
In the weekends, those Raids are even filled up to maximum capacity: 240 people fighting in an organised (Raids) way.
Indeed Blizzard had to put a limit to this open world PvP zone because of its popularity and consequences of having 400+ people fighting in ONE courtyard of a Keep of Wintergrasp.
Now I am on 3 different servers and on every one of them you have these large scale fights going on in prime time.
So unless you can come up again with "240 is not enough", please "adapt" the definition again to a new "angle" of what is supposed to be a "real" mmorpg.
As the complete economy of WOW is based on mats coming from the open world, and CATA will introduce "archeology" as a mandatory profession to even advance one bit in its end game, I think we see a complete seamless open (pvp) world experience with an added 100+ dungeons, raids, battlegrounds attached to it.
It beats - content wise - every other mmorpg on the market. Any other candidates with 100 + dungeons and raids and 4 full continents to find those gatering mats, artifacts, quests and story lines?
Wait wait, you're praising WoW for something it PROHIBITED?
You praise WoW that its players STRUGGLED to make it ACTUALLY MASSIVE, failing and ultimately being BLOCKED?
And even if Blizzard allowed people to do this RVR, was there an actual reason to do it? No. See DAOC. People had reason to conquer keeps. One faction attacks a fortress, the others defend it. THIS IS MASSIVE because you interact with everyone constantly. The actions of a few people AFFECT the whole world. THAT'S MASSIVE!
They put in an upper limit of 240 people fighting over Lake Wintergrasp on prime time. 240 guys fighting over a Keep is more than enough to call it massively. Believe me.... every night it fills up on prime time.
One of the reasons is the VOA Raid you get for owning the Castle, which gives very nice (highest and even rated) PvP gear.
On EU Stormscale and Al Akir factions want to control the RvR zones just to humiliate the other side. That's why Blizzard changed the balance techniques in the last patch 3.3.3 even.
I am not saying LW is the "ultimate", far from. I am just saying massive fights with mounted combat and Siege mechanics with 240 people are more than common in WOW.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Originally posted by Rasputin Originally posted by camp11111
Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Rasputin
Originally posted by Trihflu So let me get this straight, you think only the MMOs you enjoy can be considered MMOs. Anything that varies from the sandbox model is instantly labeled NOT an MMO. Oh boy... First of all, unlike FPS, action adventure games and plat-formers, the MMO genre is an incredibly varied genre. Yet one thing unites almost all MMOs: Multiplayer. Yes multiplayer. However, unlike the multiplayer in a co-op game like L4D, the multiplayer is more than just a lobby where you go into a level and try to get the highest score. The lobby and the level are combined into one, creating a world. The only exception I can think of would be Global Agenda (It's heavily instanced, but at the same time it's player driven world makes it the only true exception). So really anything that has this model of multiplayer in some way or another can be considered a MMO. This includes WoW. And EVE. And anything else that labels itself an MMO. It doesn't have to have a player driven world or to be run on a single server Second, let's just look at the acronym MMO, and see if WoW has it: Massively: Any way you look at it, WoW is MASSIVE. Player base, world size, amount of content. I don't need to argue this one. Multiplayer: If you can play with other players, it's multiplayer. Online: You do need an internet connection do you? I think I won the argument. But that's my opinion :P
What is the difference between a 2D and a 3D lobby? Aren't both just a place to match up ppl? That is more or less the socalled "open world" of WoW: A 3D lobby. And what are ppl doing in WoW if not going for a "high score" (equipment? PvP win/loss ratio?). In many standard games you can gain additional accolades, medals, ranks etc. Not unlike WoW. Can you really feel the MMO'iness of WoW, when you go into that 40-man PvP instance (20v20, less than most FPS games nowadays), that you are magically teleported to, from wherever you were? Out of nowhere, with no explanation? WoW doesn't even TRY to keep the illusion of being more than a game. Massively has nothing to do with playerbase (Counterstrike playerbase is enormous). World size doesn't matter if it is not used or if it is extremely fragmented and instanced. For instance, if Guild Wars was expanded and expanded, it could reach the same land mass as WoW, but it would still not be an MMO. You have given no arguments, that convinces me, that WoW is more of a massively multiplayer than BF2 or Joint Operations.
All those things are actually optional, you never need to set a foot into a instance. It's just profitable to do so, you can gain loot/honor in the open world. EvE is also heavily instanced yes every damn sector is a damn instance and as soon as 300+ player collide in warfare you get the "UHAHAHAH Lagg crash zomfg omfg blobbing" threads in CAOD. DId you see that Raspoutin guy doesn't even know WOW. ... He talks above about 40 man instances in PvP (20 vs 20) while there are 2BG's which are actually 80 man (40vs40) now and an open world zone which actually is topped off at 240 people fighting. That's 3 x 40 man Raids on each side, more than enough to satisfy the "massive" argument. But does that really happen frequently, or was it a one-time only, because some ppl wanted to test it? If, because of gameplay reasons, the massive play does not happen, then it is the same as not being in.
Last i remember there was allot of action in Tavern Mills in Vanilla times, also with the introduction of Wintergrasp the battles are pretty massive.
That's true, technically WoW is a MMO, or MMORPG, whatever.
But, as i said, in it you NEVER EVER EVER do something that's "massively multiplayer". You hang out with your few buddies. That goes against the very meaning of an MMO.
That's odd: every night in the Lake Wintergrasp zone there are fights of multiple Raids going on to conquer the fortress.
In the weekends, those Raids are even filled up to maximum capacity: 240 people fighting in an organised (Raids) way.
Indeed Blizzard had to put a limit to this open world PvP zone because of its popularity and consequences of having 400+ people fighting in ONE courtyard of a Keep of Wintergrasp.
Now I am on 3 different servers and on every one of them you have these large scale fights going on in prime time.
So unless you can come up again with "240 is not enough", please "adapt" the definition again to a new "angle" of what is supposed to be a "real" mmorpg.
As the complete economy of WOW is based on mats coming from the open world, and CATA will introduce "archeology" as a mandatory profession to even advance one bit in its end game, I think we see a complete seamless open (pvp) world experience with an added 100+ dungeons, raids, battlegrounds attached to it.
It beats - content wise - every other mmorpg on the market. Any other candidates with 100 + dungeons and raids and 4 full continents to find those gatering mats, artifacts, quests and story lines?
Wait wait, you're praising WoW for something it PROHIBITED?
You praise WoW that its players STRUGGLED to make it ACTUALLY MASSIVE, failing and ultimately being BLOCKED?
And even if Blizzard allowed people to do this RVR, was there an actual reason to do it? No. See DAOC. People had reason to conquer keeps. One faction attacks a fortress, the others defend it. THIS IS MASSIVE because you interact with everyone constantly. The actions of a few people AFFECT the whole world. THAT'S MASSIVE!
They put in an upper limit of 240 people fighting over Lake Wintergrasp on prime time. 240 guys fighting over a Keep is more than enough to call it massively. Believe me.... every night it fills up on prime time.
One of the reasons is the VOA Raid you get for owning the Castle, which gives very nice (highest and even rated) PvP gear.
On EU Stormscale and Al Akir factions want to control the RvR zones just to humiliate the other side. That's why Blizzard changed the balance techniques in the last patch 3.3.3 even.
If I log in right now, am I likely to find a 240 ppl battle in WoW? Yes or no? It is saturday evening here.
I completely admit my ignorance here, what is this Lake Wintergrasp stuff?
It sounds like a struggle to ask PvP in a desperately PvE only MMO.
Still, if game doesn't provide tools to do it, it's just a spontaneous initiative of massivity(PVP) that comes from veteran people and from the benefit of being online. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual game.
You can pretend to do RvR in the lobby of Counterstrike
And it's a shame that PvP became something as fake as Roleplaying. It's almost shocking. When you roleplay you go well beyond what the game allows you to do... you strain your imagination to "pretend" stuff. Now you have to pretend you're doing RvR in a game that only allows you to farm some gear. Terrible
BUT it's a good sign! IT means that people NEEEEEEEEDD to interact with everyone and fight for conquest. They demand global interaction, even tho the game is not built for that. Amazing the spontaneous force of people.
Life always wins, even in a game as limited and narrow-minded as WoW.
Wow is a MMORPG (I can't stand it, but the Op is wrong on this one)
A MMO is a persistent world (it exists - and things happen even after player has logged out) , it doesnt need to substantiate any kind of population. I guess the "Massive" is from its potential to hold lot of players, and back when it was given the name, to be able to have more than a few players together must have seemed astonishing. Hence Massive!
And RPG. As soon as you take control of a charactor that is not yourself, you are roleplaying right? Unles you are making a virtual image of yourself and doing what you do daily. But I havnt seen an Orc doing my wages at work lately...actually.....!
Maybe we should start giving them new names, as people like to categorise things, how about LMORGP Large, or SMORGP Small , lol!!
So MMORPG it is.
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Well, this is a completely pointless debate. Can you guys do the 'which came first? The chicken or the egg?' one next.
Come on Arletta, there's been some great stuff here. I actually read through the whole thing, and I'm gobsmacked at some of the vitriol and references to evolution and pigs in shit and what have you.
Some of these posters will be inscribing these words of wisdom in a book they're making, probably from the skin of a dead hooker or something.
Originally posted by Gylfi I completely admit my ignorance here, what is this Lake Wintergrasp stuff? It sounds like a struggle to ask PvP in a desperately PvE only MMO. Still, if game doesn't provide tools to do it, it's just a spontaneous initiative of massivity(PVP) that comes from veteran people and from the benefit of being online. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual game. You can pretend to do RvR in the lobby of Counterstrike And it's a shame that PvP became something as fake as Roleplaying. It's almost shocking. When you roleplay you go well beyond what the game allows you to do... you strain your imagination to "pretend" stuff. Now you have to pretend you're doing RvR in a game that only allows you to farm some gear. Terrible BUT it's a good sign! IT means that people NEEEEEEEEDD to interact with everyone and fight for conquest. They demand global interaction, even tho the game is not built for that. Amazing the spontaneous force of people. Life always wins, even in a game as limited and narrow-minded as WoW.
The matter of fact is you make only assumptions, you only show one side. Believe it or not you can play WoW completely different then you try to make us believe.
To be anti social is a choice, it's not forced on you. Going into a raid or Instance is also a choice. Pretty much everything in WoW is a choice, i heard some people on RP server interact quit vividly with each other making their own story's and stuff.
You on the other hand want to paint everything in one color, you are the perfect example of a bigot.
Yep, it's pointless, because WoW is obviously not really a MMO, now.
When it came out, it could have been a MMO. It had PvP, people assumed it would have had it(a MMO IS PVP, that's what everyone simply gave for granted) as end-game and they assumed it would be open-world, everybody's mind was still not corrupted, not brainwashed by the puppeteers.
Then WoW turned extremely into anti-social PvE, and instances, and solo experience.
That's why it's not a MMO. It renounced the characteristics that make it one.
wintergrasp is a 300 vs 300 instance that was made for 750 vs 750 or so
way too big for the amount of player!at start it looked like ti would be fun but blizzard limited the number of player because they couldnt cope with the popularity if the map and all was 50% smaller(about the amount of player they removed )
then it might be fun but at the size it is now lol!its too big you hide in a corner and even if someone searched for you he wouldnt find you!
I completely admit my ignorance here, what is this Lake Wintergrasp stuff?
It sounds like a struggle to ask PvP in a desperately PvE only MMO.
Still, if game doesn't provide tools to do it, it's just a spontaneous initiative of massivity(PVP) that comes from veteran people and from the benefit of being online. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual game.
You can pretend to do RvR in the lobby of Counterstrike
And it's a shame that PvP became something as fake as Roleplaying. It's almost shocking. When you roleplay you go well beyond what the game allows you to do... you strain your imagination to "pretend" stuff. Now you have to pretend you're doing RvR in a game that only allows you to farm some gear. Terrible
BUT it's a good sign! IT means that people NEEEEEEEEDD to interact with everyone and fight for conquest. They demand global interaction, even tho the game is not built for that. Amazing the spontaneous force of people.
Life always wins, even in a game as limited and narrow-minded as WoW.
The matter of fact is you make only assumptions, you only show one side. Believe it or not you can play WoW completely different then you try to make us believe.
To be anti social is a choice, it's not forced on you.
Going into a raid or Instance is also a choice.
Pretty much everything in WoW is a choice, i heard some people on RP server interact quit vividly with each other making their own story's and stuff.
You on the other hand want to paint everything in one color, you are the perfect example of a bigot.
I don't picture things in one color, i give facts.
Massivity means that a player interacts with hundreds of people.
In WoW what you do is simply INVITE few random people per time. This is just like any online FPS, guys. It's not massive gaming, it's FAKE.
Yep, it's pointless, because WoW is obviously not really a MMO, now.
When it came out, it could have been a MMO. It had PvP, people assumed it would have had it(a MMO IS PVP, that's what everyone simply gave for granted) as end-game and they assumed it would be open-world, everybody's mind was still not corrupted, not brainwashed by the puppeteers.
Then WoW turned extremely into anti-social PvE, and instances, and solo experience.
That's why it's not a MMO. It renounced the characteristics that make it one.
no !you are wrong!i will give credit where credit is due!even tho i agree with you 100% TODAY !at wow lunch and even till just before bc lunch !it WAS A TRUE MMO in every sense of the word who ever is a gamer !
Wintergrasp is not an instance. it is an open world Pvp zone on every realm
it is an UNLIMITED open world pvp zone where everyone that enters the zone is put in PvP mode even on PVE servers.
The Siege battle at Lake Wintergrasp has an upper limit of 240 people though.
Now every 2.5 hours there is a SIEGE battle in that zone. To particiapte in that Siege battle, you need to be enlisted.
The game asks 15 minutes BEFORE the huge Siege battle if you want to join or not (if in the zone).
So during the massive Siege fight you can STILL enter the zone IF the maximum number of players (240) is not attained.
Upon entering the open world PvP zone during such a Siege fight you are put into a Raid (6 Raids total of 40 man can participate).
AFTER the Siege battle, the zone is just an ordinary unlimited open world PvP zone again with daily/weekly quest zones and the zone owners can go to a specfic VOA Raid where the latest boss drops the latest and highest PvP gear.
That's it.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Yep, it's pointless, because WoW is obviously not really a MMO, now.
When it came out, it could have been a MMO. It had PvP, people assumed it would have had it(a MMO IS PVP, that's what everyone simply gave for granted) as end-game and they assumed it would be open-world, everybody's mind was still not corrupted, not brainwashed by the puppeteers.
Then WoW turned extremely into anti-social PvE, and instances, and solo experience.
That's why it's not a MMO. It renounced the characteristics that make it one.
whether or not a MMO has pvp is irrelevant, LOTRO doesnt suffer for its lack, it really depends on the game, personally i think the pvp in WoW is lacklustre and boring, but, thats because i play Eve primarily, where the pvp is a fundemental part of the game, and much more tactically orientated... but, i disagree that WoW is anti social, though i do agree that it supports the solo experience far too much, like any MMO, it is the players own abilities that define how social a game is. One of the reasons why i really wonder if the Devs really are doing players a favour or not, when they allow solo play to the degree they do, of course players have a right to choose their own gamestyle, but, encouraging them to communicate and socialise should also be an important part of the game, some players do struggle to overcome these barriers, usually from shyness. SWG.. (yes that dreaded game! again..) did encourage socialisation, cantina's, medical centres, were places that players had to spend time in, at some point or other, even if it was to recover fatigue/mind wounds and not to ogle the semi naked twileks gyrating in the middle of the cantina... ... it broke the ice for some players i think.. and if nothing else you could comment on the fact that fat rodians should
Yep, it's pointless, because WoW is obviously not really a MMO, now.
When it came out, it could have been a MMO. It had PvP, people assumed it would have had it(a MMO IS PVP, that's what everyone simply gave for granted) as end-game and they assumed it would be open-world, everybody's mind was still not corrupted, not brainwashed by the puppeteers.
Then WoW turned extremely into anti-social PvE, and instances, and solo experience.
That's why it's not a MMO. It renounced the characteristics that make it one.
no !you are wrong!i will give credit where credit is due!even tho i agree with you 100% TODAY !at wow lunch and even till just before bc lunch !it WAS A TRUE MMO in every sense of the word who ever is a gamer !
but at bc they change the receipe!
I think it happened well before BC. I remember we used to fight at Hillsfar against the horde. We assumed that's what people do in a MMO(we did it in Daoc, no?). Then we just went for PvP instances, and they were boring, and they didn't affect the world in any way. that's when WoW lost its Massivity, because instances had no consequences in the open world. You wouldn't conquer anything. You didn't interact with people because your actions couldn't make a difference.
so first i realized that open-world PvP was dead, then i realized that instanced PvP was pointless, you would fight only for gear. Then i went to raid dungeons to get gear, but then i realize that people don't interact with me, they use me as DPS machine. And that's when i left.
In a total RvR game the areas of the world can be conquered. Every conquered area creates strategical consequences. And so any character's actions are affected by these consequences. That's how a game is massive, because you interact with the whole community.
Wintergrasp is not an instance. it is an open world Pvp zone on every realm
it is an UNLIMITED open world pvp zone where everyone that enters the zone is put in PvP mode even on PVE servers.
The Siege battle at Lake Wintergrasp has an upper limit of 240 people though.
Now every 2.5 hours there is a SIEGE battle in that zone. To particiapte in that Siege battle, you need to be enlisted.
The game asks 15 minutes BEFORE the huge Siege battle if you want to join or not (if in the zone).
So during the massive Siege fight you can STILL enter the zone IF the maximum number of players (240) is not attained.
Upon entering the open world PvP zone during such a Siege fight you are put into a Raid (6 Raids total of 40 man can participate).
AFTER the Siege battle, the zone is just an ordinary unlimited open world PvP zone again with daily/weekly quest zones and the zone owners can go to a specfic VOA Raid where the latest boss drops the latest and highest PvP gear.
That's it.
well i had no idea, i must admit... how do you decide who defends and who attacks? What happens when one wins?
This could well be the only faint trace of Massivity in an otherwise Online Single Player Game
so first i realized that open-world PvP was dead, then i realized that instanced PvP was pointless, you would fight only for gear. Then i went to raid dungeons to get gear, but then i realize that people don't interact with me, they use me as DPS machine. And that's when i left.
In a total RvR game the areas of the world can be conquered. Every conquered area creates strategical consequences. And so any character's actions are affected by these consequences. That's how a game is massive, because you interact with the whole community.
So you "adapt" the line of what is an mmorpg once again .... Now that I have proven that WOW's open PvP zone Lake Wintergrasp has 240 people battling over a fortress to gain access to PvP vendors and VOA Raid bosses ... you say: "not enough."
"I want the whole world to be "conquered" like that. ... in order to speak of a "real mmorpg"."
Shrug; it happens when you talk to people that didn't touch upon WOW in the last years. You have to explain everything to people who actually have very few knowledge of present day game mechanics. That's what you get when you believe forum posters who don't even play a game.
Let me tell you one thing; a complete open RvR system like that is pretty much "unplayable" these days as it leads to complete unbalanced servers and faction imbalance.
But yes WOW is an mmorpg. it even has a lot of options you apparently did not even experience...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
so first i realized that open-world PvP was dead, then i realized that instanced PvP was pointless, you would fight only for gear. Then i went to raid dungeons to get gear, but then i realize that people don't interact with me, they use me as DPS machine. And that's when i left.
In a total RvR game the areas of the world can be conquered. Every conquered area creates strategical consequences. And so any character's actions are affected by these consequences. That's how a game is massive, because you interact with the whole community.
So you "adapt" the line of what is an mmorpg once again .... Now that I have proven that WOW's open PvP zone Lake Wintergrasp has 240 people battling over a fortress to gain access to PvP vendors and VOA Raid bosses ... you say: "not enough."
"I want the whole world to be "conquered" like that. ... in order to speak of a "real mmorpg"."
Shrug; it happens when you talk to people that didn't touch upon WOW in the last years. You have to explain everything to people who actually have very few knowledge of present day game mechanics. That's what you get when you believe forum posters who don't even play a game.
Let me tell you one thing; a complete open RvR system like that is pretty much "unplayable" these days as it leads to complete unbalanced servers and faction imbalance.
But yes WOW is an mmorpg. it even has a lot of options you apparently did not even experience...
Nono i don't adapt anything. I just take MASSIVE for what it is, interacting with a community made of hundreds of people. In WoW you don't do that. It's simple as that. This interaction can happen in many ways, not only RvR. I cited crafting and economy. Economy happens in a massive way, it's a system.
What is a system? It is as i said economy, politics, war. It's a TOOL that allows massive interaction. I repeat. WoW doesn't have that.
Tell me more of this Wintergrasp thing. Because when you fight against hundreds of people, you interact with them strategically. Even tho there's only one keep to be conquered. And even if there's point to conquer it. But you must admit, if the conquest has no impact on everyone's lives, it is not very substantial.
Maybe just change the name of this thread to "WoW is not a a good mmorpg" cause it has taken everything and dumbed it down to were the window lickers can play it.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I have been playing MMOs since the day 1 of Ultima and have played many (lol maybe all), atm i am currently subbed to Wow(and it is fun) and a couple other MMos , and altho i would find it difficult to say Wow isnt an MMO (it has all the features of one) It just doesnt feel like an MMO in its current state IMO............it felt much more like an MMO at its launch to me.
Wintergrasp is not an instance. it is an open world Pvp zone on every realm
it is an UNLIMITED open world pvp zone where everyone that enters the zone is put in PvP mode even on PVE servers.
The Siege battle at Lake Wintergrasp has an upper limit of 240 people though.
Now every 2.5 hours there is a SIEGE battle in that zone. To particiapte in that Siege battle, you need to be enlisted.
The game asks 15 minutes BEFORE the huge Siege battle if you want to join or not (if in the zone).
So during the massive Siege fight you can STILL enter the zone IF the maximum number of players (240) is not attained.
Upon entering the open world PvP zone during such a Siege fight you are put into a Raid (6 Raids total of 40 man can participate).
AFTER the Siege battle, the zone is just an ordinary unlimited open world PvP zone again with daily/weekly quest zones and the zone owners can go to a specfic VOA Raid where the latest boss drops the latest and highest PvP gear.
That's it.
I admit that I have not played since BC.
Cool enough, they are bringing back some life to the world. Great. Then they have made an effort to make it more MMO again. I can only compliment them for that.
Hopefully they will give the world to the players as the next step. Allow the players to change the landscape, build houses etc. Then we are really beginning to talk MMO.
I just wish that blizz would have some balls and make a few alt servers. Some that make ffa pvp or no instances. maybe open world dungeons. No instancesd bg areas. Would like to see one server like this to see what the population of it would be. doesn't have to be all the above but just something different than the normal ones they have braine washed everyone with.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
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But does that really happen frequently, or was it a one-time only, because some ppl wanted to test it?
If, because of gameplay reasons, the massive play does not happen, then it is the same as not being in.
They put in an upper limit of 240 people fighting over Lake Wintergrasp on prime time. 240 guys fighting over a Keep is more than enough to call it massively. Believe me.... every night it fills up on prime time.
One of the reasons is the VOA Raid you get for owning the Castle, which gives very nice (highest and even rated) PvP gear.
On EU Stormscale and Al Akir factions want to control the RvR zones just to humiliate the other side. That's why Blizzard changed the balance techniques in the last patch 3.3.3 even.
I am not saying LW is the "ultimate", far from. I am just saying massive fights with mounted combat and Siege mechanics with 240 people are more than common in WOW.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
What is the difference between a 2D and a 3D lobby? Aren't both just a place to match up ppl?
That is more or less the socalled "open world" of WoW: A 3D lobby.
And what are ppl doing in WoW if not going for a "high score" (equipment? PvP win/loss ratio?). In many standard games you can gain additional accolades, medals, ranks etc. Not unlike WoW.
Can you really feel the MMO'iness of WoW, when you go into that 40-man PvP instance (20v20, less than most FPS games nowadays), that you are magically teleported to, from wherever you were? Out of nowhere, with no explanation? WoW doesn't even TRY to keep the illusion of being more than a game.
Massively has nothing to do with playerbase (Counterstrike playerbase is enormous). World size doesn't matter if it is not used or if it is extremely fragmented and instanced. For instance, if Guild Wars was expanded and expanded, it could reach the same land mass as WoW, but it would still not be an MMO.
You have given no arguments, that convinces me, that WoW is more of a massively multiplayer than BF2 or Joint Operations.
All those things are actually optional, you never need to set a foot into a instance. It's just profitable to do so, you can gain loot/honor in the open world.
EvE is also heavily instanced yes every damn sector is a damn instance and as soon as 300+ player collide in warfare you get the "UHAHAHAH Lagg crash zomfg omfg blobbing" threads in CAOD.
DId you see that Raspoutin guy doesn't even know WOW. ...
He talks above about 40 man instances in PvP (20 vs 20) while there are 2BG's which are actually 80 man (40vs40) now and an open world zone which actually is topped off at 240 people fighting.
That's 3 x 40 man Raids on each side, more than enough to satisfy the "massive" argument.
But does that really happen frequently, or was it a one-time only, because some ppl wanted to test it?
If, because of gameplay reasons, the massive play does not happen, then it is the same as not being in.
Last i remember there was allot of action in Tavern Mills in Vanilla times, also with the introduction of Wintergrasp the battles are pretty massive.
If I log in right now, am I likely to find a 240 ppl battle in WoW? Yes or no? It is saturday evening here.
I completely admit my ignorance here, what is this Lake Wintergrasp stuff?
It sounds like a struggle to ask PvP in a desperately PvE only MMO.
Still, if game doesn't provide tools to do it, it's just a spontaneous initiative of massivity(PVP) that comes from veteran people and from the benefit of being online. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual game.
You can pretend to do RvR in the lobby of Counterstrike
And it's a shame that PvP became something as fake as Roleplaying. It's almost shocking. When you roleplay you go well beyond what the game allows you to do... you strain your imagination to "pretend" stuff. Now you have to pretend you're doing RvR in a game that only allows you to farm some gear. Terrible
BUT it's a good sign! IT means that people NEEEEEEEEDD to interact with everyone and fight for conquest. They demand global interaction, even tho the game is not built for that. Amazing the spontaneous force of people.
Life always wins, even in a game as limited and narrow-minded as WoW.
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Well, this is a completely pointless debate. Can you guys do the 'which came first? The chicken or the egg?' one next.
Wow is a MMORPG (I can't stand it, but the Op is wrong on this one)
A MMO is a persistent world (it exists - and things happen even after player has logged out) , it doesnt need to substantiate any kind of population. I guess the "Massive" is from its potential to hold lot of players, and back when it was given the name, to be able to have more than a few players together must have seemed astonishing. Hence Massive!
And RPG. As soon as you take control of a charactor that is not yourself, you are roleplaying right? Unles you are making a virtual image of yourself and doing what you do daily. But I havnt seen an Orc doing my wages at work lately...actually.....!
Maybe we should start giving them new names, as people like to categorise things, how about LMORGP Large, or SMORGP Small , lol!!
So MMORPG it is.
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Come on Arletta, there's been some great stuff here. I actually read through the whole thing, and I'm gobsmacked at some of the vitriol and references to evolution and pigs in shit and what have you.
Some of these posters will be inscribing these words of wisdom in a book they're making, probably from the skin of a dead hooker or something.
The matter of fact is you make only assumptions, you only show one side. Believe it or not you can play WoW completely different then you try to make us believe.
To be anti social is a choice, it's not forced on you.
Going into a raid or Instance is also a choice.
Pretty much everything in WoW is a choice, i heard some people on RP server interact quit vividly with each other making their own story's and stuff.
You on the other hand want to paint everything in one color, you are the perfect example of a bigot.
Yep, it's pointless, because WoW is obviously not really a MMO, now.
When it came out, it could have been a MMO. It had PvP, people assumed it would have had it(a MMO IS PVP, that's what everyone simply gave for granted) as end-game and they assumed it would be open-world, everybody's mind was still not corrupted, not brainwashed by the puppeteers.
Then WoW turned extremely into anti-social PvE, and instances, and solo experience.
That's why it's not a MMO. It renounced the characteristics that make it one.
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wintergrasp is a 300 vs 300 instance that was made for 750 vs 750 or so
way too big for the amount of player!at start it looked like ti would be fun but blizzard limited the number of player because they couldnt cope with the popularity if the map and all was 50% smaller(about the amount of player they removed )
then it might be fun but at the size it is now lol!its too big you hide in a corner and even if someone searched for you he wouldnt find you!
I don't picture things in one color, i give facts.
Massivity means that a player interacts with hundreds of people.
In WoW what you do is simply INVITE few random people per time. This is just like any online FPS, guys. It's not massive gaming, it's FAKE.
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no !you are wrong!i will give credit where credit is due!even tho i agree with you 100% TODAY !at wow lunch and even till just before bc lunch !it WAS A TRUE MMO in every sense of the word who ever is a gamer !
but at bc they change the receipe!
Wintergrasp is not an instance. it is an open world Pvp zone on every realm
it is an UNLIMITED open world pvp zone where everyone that enters the zone is put in PvP mode even on PVE servers.
The Siege battle at Lake Wintergrasp has an upper limit of 240 people though.
Now every 2.5 hours there is a SIEGE battle in that zone. To particiapte in that Siege battle, you need to be enlisted.
The game asks 15 minutes BEFORE the huge Siege battle if you want to join or not (if in the zone).
So during the massive Siege fight you can STILL enter the zone IF the maximum number of players (240) is not attained.
Upon entering the open world PvP zone during such a Siege fight you are put into a Raid (6 Raids total of 40 man can participate).
AFTER the Siege battle, the zone is just an ordinary unlimited open world PvP zone again with daily/weekly quest zones and the zone owners can go to a specfic VOA Raid where the latest boss drops the latest and highest PvP gear.
That's it.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
whether or not a MMO has pvp is irrelevant, LOTRO doesnt suffer for its lack, it really depends on the game, personally i think the pvp in WoW is lacklustre and boring, but, thats because i play Eve primarily, where the pvp is a fundemental part of the game, and much more tactically orientated... but, i disagree that WoW is anti social, though i do agree that it supports the solo experience far too much, like any MMO, it is the players own abilities that define how social a game is. One of the reasons why i really wonder if the Devs really are doing players a favour or not, when they allow solo play to the degree they do, of course players have a right to choose their own gamestyle, but, encouraging them to communicate and socialise should also be an important part of the game, some players do struggle to overcome these barriers, usually from shyness. SWG.. (yes that dreaded game! again..) did encourage socialisation, cantina's, medical centres, were places that players had to spend time in, at some point or other, even if it was to recover fatigue/mind wounds and not to ogle the semi naked twileks gyrating in the middle of the cantina...
... it broke the ice for some players i think.. and if nothing else you could comment on the fact that fat rodians should
A. wear more clothing.. and
B.. never ever dance..
ok ok they call it phaze !the point wasnt that!
I think it happened well before BC. I remember we used to fight at Hillsfar against the horde. We assumed that's what people do in a MMO(we did it in Daoc, no?). Then we just went for PvP instances, and they were boring, and they didn't affect the world in any way. that's when WoW lost its Massivity, because instances had no consequences in the open world. You wouldn't conquer anything. You didn't interact with people because your actions couldn't make a difference.
so first i realized that open-world PvP was dead, then i realized that instanced PvP was pointless, you would fight only for gear. Then i went to raid dungeons to get gear, but then i realize that people don't interact with me, they use me as DPS machine. And that's when i left.
In a total RvR game the areas of the world can be conquered. Every conquered area creates strategical consequences. And so any character's actions are affected by these consequences. That's how a game is massive, because you interact with the whole community.
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well i had no idea, i must admit... how do you decide who defends and who attacks? What happens when one wins?
This could well be the only faint trace of Massivity in an otherwise Online Single Player Game
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So you "adapt" the line of what is an mmorpg once again .... Now that I have proven that WOW's open PvP zone Lake Wintergrasp has 240 people battling over a fortress to gain access to PvP vendors and VOA Raid bosses ... you say: "not enough."
"I want the whole world to be "conquered" like that. ... in order to speak of a "real mmorpg"."
Shrug; it happens when you talk to people that didn't touch upon WOW in the last years. You have to explain everything to people who actually have very few knowledge of present day game mechanics. That's what you get when you believe forum posters who don't even play a game.
Let me tell you one thing; a complete open RvR system like that is pretty much "unplayable" these days as it leads to complete unbalanced servers and faction imbalance.
But yes WOW is an mmorpg. it even has a lot of options you apparently did not even experience...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Nono i don't adapt anything. I just take MASSIVE for what it is, interacting with a community made of hundreds of people. In WoW you don't do that. It's simple as that. This interaction can happen in many ways, not only RvR. I cited crafting and economy. Economy happens in a massive way, it's a system.
What is a system? It is as i said economy, politics, war. It's a TOOL that allows massive interaction. I repeat. WoW doesn't have that.
Tell me more of this Wintergrasp thing. Because when you fight against hundreds of people, you interact with them strategically. Even tho there's only one keep to be conquered. And even if there's point to conquer it. But you must admit, if the conquest has no impact on everyone's lives, it is not very substantial.
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Not true. You would have to be a masochist to try to play the game differently than it was meant to.
I tried to play it as a PvP game when it was not meant to. It was a nightmare, and tore my guild apart.
Maybe just change the name of this thread to "WoW is not a a good mmorpg" cause it has taken everything and dumbed it down to were the window lickers can play it.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I have been playing MMOs since the day 1 of Ultima and have played many (lol maybe all), atm i am currently subbed to Wow(and it is fun) and a couple other MMos , and altho i would find it difficult to say Wow isnt an MMO (it has all the features of one) It just doesnt feel like an MMO in its current state IMO............it felt much more like an MMO at its launch to me.
I admit that I have not played since BC.
Cool enough, they are bringing back some life to the world. Great. Then they have made an effort to make it more MMO again. I can only compliment them for that.
Hopefully they will give the world to the players as the next step. Allow the players to change the landscape, build houses etc. Then we are really beginning to talk MMO.
I just wish that blizz would have some balls and make a few alt servers. Some that make ffa pvp or no instances. maybe open world dungeons. No instancesd bg areas. Would like to see one server like this to see what the population of it would be. doesn't have to be all the above but just something different than the normal ones they have braine washed everyone with.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.