Umm. The email I recieved from Turbine states that LOTRO is going F2P. So what is it then? F2P or not? Is Turbine lieing aobut what the game actually is or do a few people refuse to admit what it is to keep people paying a sub so they can play for free? I enjoyed the ostrich reference someone here made, its very fitting.
Dude, you start off on these forums with demolishing even a hint of your credibility, by first announcing that you have "already quit", and THEN actually start asking about what the new F2P model introduction means.
Seriously, was this really worth it?
DB
No Dude, I have not said I already quit. I said I was leaving the game after my three month sub runs out. The blinders you use to read about all the good things Turbine is doing for its players should perhaps be removed while reading posts on other web sites.
Semantics. A prepaid sub of course only runs out after a certain amount of time. The decision you made has already been done, therefore you already know you quit.
This is not the point anyway. The point is, that you have made this decision based on utter ignorance about how things will (NOT) change for active subscribers.
DB
My post that you seem so upset about was in response to people saying that LOTRO was not going to be F2P but a hybrid model. I find it odd that Tubine would send emails to the subscribers saying its going F2P when this isnt the case accordin to the experts I see posting here. And yes nothing changes for the subsriber, they get to keep everything they have earned or payed for and their sub money will be just like preordering 500 Cash Shop tokens each month so they can spend them to alleviate the inevetible grind or the items that take the place of items that could have been made craftable. Yes, in my ignorance I just cant see how this is a good thing for the game. Sure its great for the people that wouldnt pay to play the game but now they can suck up bandwidth, drive the role players out of Bree with their ignorance and make it very undesireable for any vet to role an alt. Those in my Kin with the "wait and see" attitude are rolling and rushing to get their new toons far away from the F2P areas which in itself should tell them what they already know. But enjoy your F2P game that really isnt a F2P and I will remain blissful in my ignorance.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
MMORPG's change. If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming. And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version. The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.
So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change. At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change false).
Which is it?
Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop? Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO. Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content. That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so.
Oh the irony. First you claim that you don't care enough to keep up with LoTRO, then you give your opinion (which is based on conjecture and falsehoods rather than facts) about the change in the game's payment model.
You are assuming a lot. As has already been provided, the subscription model will include everything in game. Nothing will have to be bought except a one-time purchase of xpacks (which is the same as every P2P MMORPG). Also, the subscriber gets 500 Turbine Points free, per month, to use on the Tubine Store. So... subscribers don't have to pay for anything other than the $15/mo (unless they are lifetimers) unless they want even more from the Turbine Store.
The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could. It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes. I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot. It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was.
I never contradicted myself. My statements were correct. You were wrong on your second statement, which is understandable considering you are basing all your information on falsehoods and what-if's rather than facts since you have stated that you don't care enough about LoTRO to keep up with the game.
Change, progress, and naivete though, woo! Onward!
Sheep following the grouping of misinformation. Yay sheep.
Vato, see my earlier post for more, but I must ask. Do you believe everything that is spoon-fed to you? Open your mind and think for yourself.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
So if someone doesnt like what they are doing, they have to put neatly into a group so you can spin things and discredit them easly.
Well if we are going that route:
You fanboys really pull out all the stops. "The game isnt dying, it gaining subs" . "Going F2P doesnt mean the game was in trouble". "Everything will be the SAME when it goes F2P"
Just take a look around DDO for how they will inch along and push the "Cash Shop" aspect of the game. You want to say wait and see, I say look at another product by the SAME company how things looked great in the beginning then down the road the implications of the move to F2P have become very clear. The cadh shop will be the focus of development. Your subscription will not hold the same value the min cash shop content gets pushed out that would of been included prior with a sub. Im not guessing, it has happened in DDO. You can vilify people who see the writing on the wall (super rewards, anyone??) of how this will play out. Some people will like the F2P model with all the changes it entails, but dont think that because others have a very good working knowledge on how this will go down based on a similar product that made the same move by the same company has panned out.
MMORPG's change. If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming. And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version. The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.
So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change. At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change false).
Which is it?
Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop? Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO. Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content. That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so.
Oh the irony. First you claim that you don't care enough to keep up with LoTRO, then you give your opinion (which is based on conjecture and falsehoods rather than facts) about the change in the game's payment model.
You are assuming a lot. As has already been provided, the subscription model will include everything in game. Nothing will have to be bought except a one-time purchase of xpacks (which is the same as every P2P MMORPG). Also, the subscriber gets 500 Turbine Points free, per month, to use on the Tubine Store. So... subscribers don't have to pay for anything other than the $15/mo (unless they are lifetimers) unless they want even more from the Turbine Store.
The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could. It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes. I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot. It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was.
I never contradicted myself. My statements were correct. You were wrong on your second statement, which is understandable considering you are basing all your information on falsehoods and what-if's rather than facts since you have stated that you don't care enough about LoTRO to keep up with the game.
Change, progress, and naivete though, woo! Onward!
Sheep following the grouping of misinformation. Yay sheep.
Vato, see my earlier post for more, but I must ask. Do you believe everything that is spoon-fed to you? Open your mind and think for yourself.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
Vato the funny thing is, you keep stating how calm you are, I guess in an attempt to perpetrate your zen-like Spock self-image or whatever it is that keeps telling you your "logic" is right and everyone else is wrong. The reality is that no one is hysterical here, we're stating opinions, and yes, engaging in a little bit of conjecture.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly.
MMORPG's change. If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming. And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version. The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.
So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change. At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change false).
Which is it?
Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop? Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO. Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content. That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so.
Oh the irony. First you claim that you don't care enough to keep up with LoTRO, then you give your opinion (which is based on conjecture and falsehoods rather than facts) about the change in the game's payment model.
You are assuming a lot. As has already been provided, the subscription model will include everything in game. Nothing will have to be bought except a one-time purchase of xpacks (which is the same as every P2P MMORPG). Also, the subscriber gets 500 Turbine Points free, per month, to use on the Tubine Store. So... subscribers don't have to pay for anything other than the $15/mo (unless they are lifetimers) unless they want even more from the Turbine Store.
The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could. It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes. I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot. It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was.
I never contradicted myself. My statements were correct. You were wrong on your second statement, which is understandable considering you are basing all your information on falsehoods and what-if's rather than facts since you have stated that you don't care enough about LoTRO to keep up with the game.
Change, progress, and naivete though, woo! Onward!
Sheep following the grouping of misinformation. Yay sheep.
Vato, see my earlier post for more, but I must ask. Do you believe everything that is spoon-fed to you? Open your mind and think for yourself.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
Vato the funny thing is, you keep stating how calm you are, I guess in an attempt to perpetrate your zen-like Spock self-image or whatever it is that keeps telling you your "logic" is right and everyone else is wrong. The reality is that no one is hysterical here, we're stating opinions, and yes, engaging in a little bit of conjecture.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly.
Oh and calm/logical, I can't forget that, lol.
Great points here man.
Thats the thing people are not even attempting to think about. Yes, right after relaunch with F2P things will look very similar. These companies are not stupid, they are not going to huck up the cash shop right away. They will over the next year gradually add things into the cash shop that would of been shouted down by the masses at the beggining. Then contet development's number one priority will be "What sells in the shop" everthing else will be tertiary to that one design aspect. Subscriptions will never again hold the same value they do now, it goes against the whole priciple of the revenue model. The new update for DDO has made some changes to some classes, in order to respec one must purchase it through the Store. Latest example from Turbine run F2P game. There are many other changes that are pretty bad as well, go read the forums for DDO people, Turbine WILL change the focus of the game. If people like it, fine, but coming out and calling people out for hysteria when there is a case to study by the same company already out is silly.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Well that and DDO's F2P model where VIP's get exactly what they did before the game went F2P. Following that example those "marketing bullet points" that Turbine are acceptable as proof that they intend to keep thier promises in LOTRO as well.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
Again DDO can be used to show that your assumptions are baseless. Turbine is moving to the Hybrid model because it works better than a straight P2P model for bringing in revenue. When DDO switched revenue went up over 500% just by adding convenience items into the store. They have no need to add items in that the VIP's are required to buy as they are already getting more from paying subs than they will ever get from the average F2P Premium player. It should also be obvious to most people that their best case scenario is to convert F2P players into VIP's as that gets them the most income over time. The store is designed specifically to entice those players to purchase their way towards VIP or to at least pay enought to come close. It's an ideal way to grab those "on-the-fencer's" that want to play but don't know if it's worth it to pay a monthly sub. Making it F2P just means they get the most access to that pool of players. It removes the barrier of entry.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p.
Again the example of DDO's conversion is ample proof that it will be exactly the case.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
Troll threads getting locked and deleted? That almost never happens in any game ever.
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly.
If Turbine is looking to make as much money as possible driving away your regular paying customers needlessly is not the way to go. Ripping off monthly subs just does not make any sense business wise.
Well that and DDO's F2P model where VIP's get exactly what they did before the game went F2P. Following that example those "marketing bullet points" that Turbine are acceptable as proof that they intend to keep thier promises in LOTRO as well.
Thats the thing people are not even attempting to think about. Yes, right after relaunch with F2P things will look very similar. These companies are not stupid, they are not going to huck up the cash shop right away. They will over the next year gradually add things into the cash shop that would of been shouted down by the masses at the beggining.
Whether they add them now or down the road if they directly affect your primary income source (VIP's) and piss them off they will leave, meaning you lose a big chunk of your revenue. You seem to be trying to apply the same Asian straight F2P/cash shop business model to Turbine's Hybrid model which is incorrect as Turbine's model still relies heavily on monthly sub income. In Turbine's model the VIP's are the upper bar they measure income by as $15 a month is pretty much the max most will pay per month to play an mmo. Ideally they want as many to be paying the monthly sub as possible.
Then contet development's number one priority will be "What sells in the shop" everthing else will be tertiary to that one design aspect. Subscriptions will never again hold the same value they do now, it goes against the whole priciple of the revenue model.
They already know what sells best in the shop, consumables and adventure packs. There's no mystery here all they need to do is keep releasing content which keeps VIP's happy and continuing to sub, and creates more items for the Premiums to buy in the LOTRO Store. Adding equipment doesn't make sense as it would undermine the ingame economy or it would have to be so expensive almost no-one would buy it. In the Hybrid model Subscribers actually gain value as they have unlimited access to all content (not including paid xpacs of course) and they get a monthly allotment of points to spend how they see fit on convenience items that Premiums have to pay for. Lifetime subs make out the best of all.
The new update for DDO has made some changes to some classes, in order to respec one must purchase it through the Store. Latest example from Turbine run F2P game. There are many other changes that are pretty bad as well, go read the forums for DDO people, Turbine WILL change the focus of the game. If people like it, fine, but coming out and calling people out for hysteria when there is a case to study by the same company already out is silly.
This is patently false. In order to respec you need siberys shards and time if you are just doing a few feats, or if you want to completely redo your character you need the True Heart of Wood which is available either in the store or by collecting epic dungeon tokens. None of the posts about characters using the Heart of Wood that I've read mentioned that they had to buy the item from the DDO store at all so obviously you don't NEED to purchase them from the DDO Store.
Well that and DDO's F2P model where VIP's get exactly what they did before the game went F2P. Following that example those "marketing bullet points" that Turbine are acceptable as proof that they intend to keep thier promises in LOTRO as well.
And what exactly am I supposed to be looking for on the DDO main forums page? If you're going to refute the word of someone who is currently subscribed to the game you could at least provide a proper link.
Umm. The email I recieved from Turbine states that LOTRO is going F2P. So what is it then? F2P or not?
Not. Currently there only seems to be two acceptable terms for MMO's; P2p and F2p. Mention either of those and it put's the correct general idea in mind as opposed to 'Pay as you go' (which would be seen as a negative phrase) or Hybrid (which everyone is going to scratch their heads over and say 'What?').
From a marketing standpoint saying F2p will bring in more customers to look around, try it out and possible stay. Downside is F2p has a negative connection to any gamer since they think Asian F2p model, which isn't what DDO has or we think LotRO will have.
Got to call it something, P2p has had it's chance at attracting customers, might as well give F2p a whirl and see how it fits.
Umm. The email I recieved from Turbine states that LOTRO is going F2P. So what is it then? F2P or not?
Not. Currently there only seems to be two acceptable terms for MMO's; P2p and F2p. Mention either of those and it put's the correct general idea in mind as opposed to 'Pay as you go' (which would be seen as a negative phrase) or Hybrid (which everyone is going to scratch their heads over and say 'What?').
From a marketing standpoint saying F2p will bring in more customers to look around, try it out and possible stay. Downside is F2p has a negative connection to any gamer since they think Asian F2p model, which isn't what DDO has or we think LotRO will have.
Got to call it something, P2p has had it's chance at attracting customers, might as well give F2p a whirl and see how it fits.
LOTRO isn't going F2P -- it's gaining a F2P option. Coupled with two different tiers of P2P, the game gives players the freedom to choose how much of the game they want available and then are charged accordingly.
Personally, I like to think of it as a TPM (tiered payment model) game.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
So if someone doesnt like what they are doing, they have to put neatly into a group so you can spin things and discredit them easly.
Sorry, it's easier to group posters with the... oh, I don't know... same belief structure and same arguments. I'm sorry that basic logic escapes you.
Well if we are going that route:
You fanboys (ahh yes... at least I had more respect and tact than to use a derogatory remark to describe a group, unlike you) really pull out all the stops. "1. The game isnt dying, it gaining subs" . "2. Going F2P doesnt mean the game was in trouble". "3. Everything will be the SAME when it goes F2P"
Who said that? There is no proof to say that LoTRO is dying, nor that it is gaining subs.
Is there actual proof that LoTRO was in trouble, and that is why they are going to the Hybrid payment system?
What is being provided shows that the subscription plan will offer exactly the same, except giving the subscriber 500 turbine points per month. If that changes, no one knows. I don't deal in what-if's though.
Just take a look around DDO for how they will inch along and push the "Cash Shop" aspect of the game. You want to say wait and see, I say look at another product by the SAME company how things looked great in the beginning then down the road the implications of the move to F2P have become very clear. The cadh shop will be the focus of development. Your subscription will not hold the same value the min cash shop content gets pushed out that would of been included prior with a sub. Im not guessing, it has happened in DDO. You can vilify people who see the writing on the wall (super rewards, anyone??) of how this will play out. Some people will like the F2P model with all the changes it entails, but dont think that because others have a very good working knowledge on how this will go down based on a similar product that made the same move by the same company has panned out.
Lots of unfounded paranoia in this paragraph. DDO =/= LoTRO. The games are set up very differently. Therefore, what has happened in DDO does not mean it will happen in LoTRO.
Now, I am not saying that things won't change... because, they could. However, I am not using what-if's, assumptions, based on limited information when describing possible future events. I, as are many others, are playing the wait-and-see game as these changes do not seem as vile as the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups make them out to be.
MMORPG's change. If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming. And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version. The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.
So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change. At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change false).
Which is it?
Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop? Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO. Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content. That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so.
Oh the irony. First you claim that you don't care enough to keep up with LoTRO, then you give your opinion (which is based on conjecture and falsehoods rather than facts) about the change in the game's payment model.
You are assuming a lot. As has already been provided, the subscription model will include everything in game. Nothing will have to be bought except a one-time purchase of xpacks (which is the same as every P2P MMORPG). Also, the subscriber gets 500 Turbine Points free, per month, to use on the Tubine Store. So... subscribers don't have to pay for anything other than the $15/mo (unless they are lifetimers) unless they want even more from the Turbine Store.
The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could. It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes. I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot. It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was.
I never contradicted myself. My statements were correct. You were wrong on your second statement, which is understandable considering you are basing all your information on falsehoods and what-if's rather than facts since you have stated that you don't care enough about LoTRO to keep up with the game.
Change, progress, and naivete though, woo! Onward!
Sheep following the grouping of misinformation. Yay sheep.
Vato, see my earlier post for more, but I must ask. Do you believe everything that is spoon-fed to you? Open your mind and think for yourself.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
Vato the funny thing is, you keep stating how calm you are, I guess in an attempt to perpetrate your zen-like Spock self-image or whatever it is that keeps telling you your "logic" is right and everyone else is wrong. The reality is that no one is hysterical here, we're stating opinions, and yes, engaging in a little bit of conjecture.
Personal attacks based on assumptions do not suit you. And, you must not be doing much reading on these forums if you claim "no one is hysterical here" as there have been quite a few posts that do indicate hysteria.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. (assumption) The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. (assumption) It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p. And, they are still right. This is not a F2P model. It is a Hybrid model with an essential extended free trial.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots (derogatory comment) flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly. And, based on the catchy rhyme about "assume", we all know your usage of assumptions make you look like.
Oh and calm/logical, I can't forget that, lol. To base arguments on assumptions is not logical.
Sub members will get everything unlocked. Nothing will change for them.
The cash shop contains items for Outfitting and potions and stuff. Nothing required. Plus VIP members (subbed) get 1000 turbine points a month to spend on whatever on top of having everything.
Nothing will be different, population will just go up which is a good thing. The game seems really empty at times.
MMORPG's change. If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming. And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version. The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.
So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change. At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change false).
Which is it?
Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop? Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO. Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content. That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so.
Oh the irony. First you claim that you don't care enough to keep up with LoTRO, then you give your opinion (which is based on conjecture and falsehoods rather than facts) about the change in the game's payment model.
You are assuming a lot. As has already been provided, the subscription model will include everything in game. Nothing will have to be bought except a one-time purchase of xpacks (which is the same as every P2P MMORPG). Also, the subscriber gets 500 Turbine Points free, per month, to use on the Tubine Store. So... subscribers don't have to pay for anything other than the $15/mo (unless they are lifetimers) unless they want even more from the Turbine Store.
The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could. It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes. I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot. It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was.
I never contradicted myself. My statements were correct. You were wrong on your second statement, which is understandable considering you are basing all your information on falsehoods and what-if's rather than facts since you have stated that you don't care enough about LoTRO to keep up with the game.
Change, progress, and naivete though, woo! Onward!
Sheep following the grouping of misinformation. Yay sheep.
Vato, see my earlier post for more, but I must ask. Do you believe everything that is spoon-fed to you? Open your mind and think for yourself.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
Vato the funny thing is, you keep stating how calm you are, I guess in an attempt to perpetrate your zen-like Spock self-image or whatever it is that keeps telling you your "logic" is right and everyone else is wrong. The reality is that no one is hysterical here, we're stating opinions, and yes, engaging in a little bit of conjecture.
Personal attacks based on assumptions do not suit you. And, you must not be doing much reading on these forums if you claim "no one is hysterical here" as there have been quite a few posts that do indicate hysteria.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins.
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. (assumption) The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. (assumption) It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p. And, they are still right. This is not a F2P model. It is a Hybrid model with an essential extended free trial.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots (derogatory comment) flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly. And, based on the catchy rhyme about "assume", we all know your usage of assumptions make you look like.
Oh and calm/logical, I can't forget that, lol. To base arguments on assumptions is not logical.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.
And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth. I never claimed that it is concrete. However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing. If it does change, then my assessment will change. Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.
And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth. I never claimed that it is concrete. However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing. If it does change, then my assessment will change. Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.
The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.
We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...
- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.
- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of management direction is pretty much academic. The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.
- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward. It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:
. What items will be in the cash shop?
.To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?
. How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?
. What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?
. What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?
. In the past, content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?
. What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?
. To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?
. How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?
. How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?
. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?
. To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?
The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it. Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.
And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth. I never claimed that it is concrete. However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing. If it does change, then my assessment will change. Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.
The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.
We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...
- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.
- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of management direction is pretty much academic. The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.
- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward. It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:
. What items will be in the cash shop?
.To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?
. How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?
. What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?
. What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?
. In the past, content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?
. What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?
. To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?
. How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?
. How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?
. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?
. To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?
The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it. Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)
The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld. Therefore, it is a fact. And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.
And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.
And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth. I never claimed that it is concrete. However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing. If it does change, then my assessment will change. Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.
The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.
We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...
- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.
- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of management direction is pretty much academic. The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.
- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward. It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:
. What items will be in the cash shop?
.To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?
. How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?
. What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?
. What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?
. In the past, content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?
. What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?
. To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?
. How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?
. How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?
. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?
. To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?
The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it. Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.
That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.
At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.
In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.
That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.
At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.
In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.
Hmm. Might be getting somewhere here. Are you saying things should only be judged when they are actually DONE?
So what's up with all the doomcriers in this thread then?
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.
At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.
In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.
Hmm. Might be getting somewhere here. Are you saying things should only be judged when they are actually DONE?
So what's up with all the doomcriers in this thread then?
DB
Maybe if you had high lighted the part of Grumpys post about 'no plans for overt magic' and' no plans for F2P' you would understand better what is up with the "doomcriers".
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I guess you missed the whole part about their not all bad................. You have a guilty concious?
Guilty conscience? For quitting a game? Really? Or am I supposed to feel guilty about not paying a sub fee so the F2P crowd can play for nothing? I really think that is the whole problem this new found LOTRO fan base is having. If the vets dont pay how are they going to play for nothing?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.
At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.
In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.
Hmm. Might be getting somewhere here. Are you saying things should only be judged when they are actually DONE?
So what's up with all the doomcriers in this thread then?
DB
Maybe if you had high lighted the part of Grumpys post about 'no plans for overt magic' and' no plans for F2P' you would understand better what is up with the "doomcriers".
No difference. I did not care when they said "no plans for F2P", and I do not care now, since it is still not implemented. I will wait and see how it turns out, and if they ruin the game, I will yell. Until then, it's only paranoia, nothing else.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Comments
My post that you seem so upset about was in response to people saying that LOTRO was not going to be F2P but a hybrid model. I find it odd that Tubine would send emails to the subscribers saying its going F2P when this isnt the case accordin to the experts I see posting here. And yes nothing changes for the subsriber, they get to keep everything they have earned or payed for and their sub money will be just like preordering 500 Cash Shop tokens each month so they can spend them to alleviate the inevetible grind or the items that take the place of items that could have been made craftable. Yes, in my ignorance I just cant see how this is a good thing for the game. Sure its great for the people that wouldnt pay to play the game but now they can suck up bandwidth, drive the role players out of Bree with their ignorance and make it very undesireable for any vet to role an alt. Those in my Kin with the "wait and see" attitude are rolling and rushing to get their new toons far away from the F2P areas which in itself should tell them what they already know. But enjoy your F2P game that really isnt a F2P and I will remain blissful in my ignorance.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
So, to you "open your mind and think for yourself" means jumping to conclusions and hysteria based on conjecture and false information. Based on your definition of "open mind and thinking for yourself" I wouldn't qualify as doing such. I base my ideals on facts and try to remain as calm while interpreting the facts. Which is an exact opposite of what these anti-F2P and anti-Turbine groups are doing.
Anti Turbine groups? Anti F2P groups? LOL
So if someone doesnt like what they are doing, they have to put neatly into a group so you can spin things and discredit them easly.
Well if we are going that route:
You fanboys really pull out all the stops. "The game isnt dying, it gaining subs" . "Going F2P doesnt mean the game was in trouble". "Everything will be the SAME when it goes F2P"
Just take a look around DDO for how they will inch along and push the "Cash Shop" aspect of the game. You want to say wait and see, I say look at another product by the SAME company how things looked great in the beginning then down the road the implications of the move to F2P have become very clear. The cadh shop will be the focus of development. Your subscription will not hold the same value the min cash shop content gets pushed out that would of been included prior with a sub. Im not guessing, it has happened in DDO. You can vilify people who see the writing on the wall (super rewards, anyone??) of how this will play out. Some people will like the F2P model with all the changes it entails, but dont think that because others have a very good working knowledge on how this will go down based on a similar product that made the same move by the same company has panned out.
Vato the funny thing is, you keep stating how calm you are, I guess in an attempt to perpetrate your zen-like Spock self-image or whatever it is that keeps telling you your "logic" is right and everyone else is wrong. The reality is that no one is hysterical here, we're stating opinions, and yes, engaging in a little bit of conjecture.
You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them. If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee. The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually. It's how they will generate extra revenue. It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.
If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it. I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in. This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p.
I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p. I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit. The Turbine fanbots flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).
The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw). Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly.
Oh and calm/logical, I can't forget that, lol.
Great points here man.
Thats the thing people are not even attempting to think about. Yes, right after relaunch with F2P things will look very similar. These companies are not stupid, they are not going to huck up the cash shop right away. They will over the next year gradually add things into the cash shop that would of been shouted down by the masses at the beggining. Then contet development's number one priority will be "What sells in the shop" everthing else will be tertiary to that one design aspect. Subscriptions will never again hold the same value they do now, it goes against the whole priciple of the revenue model. The new update for DDO has made some changes to some classes, in order to respec one must purchase it through the Store. Latest example from Turbine run F2P game. There are many other changes that are pretty bad as well, go read the forums for DDO people, Turbine WILL change the focus of the game. If people like it, fine, but coming out and calling people out for hysteria when there is a case to study by the same company already out is silly.
Wrong, that is not a true statement. Go look for yourself. http://forums.ddo.com/
And what exactly am I supposed to be looking for on the DDO main forums page? If you're going to refute the word of someone who is currently subscribed to the game you could at least provide a proper link.
Originally posted by Philby
Umm. The email I recieved from Turbine states that LOTRO is going F2P. So what is it then? F2P or not?
Not. Currently there only seems to be two acceptable terms for MMO's; P2p and F2p. Mention either of those and it put's the correct general idea in mind as opposed to 'Pay as you go' (which would be seen as a negative phrase) or Hybrid (which everyone is going to scratch their heads over and say 'What?').
From a marketing standpoint saying F2p will bring in more customers to look around, try it out and possible stay. Downside is F2p has a negative connection to any gamer since they think Asian F2p model, which isn't what DDO has or we think LotRO will have.
Got to call it something, P2p has had it's chance at attracting customers, might as well give F2p a whirl and see how it fits.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
LOTRO isn't going F2P -- it's gaining a F2P option. Coupled with two different tiers of P2P, the game gives players the freedom to choose how much of the game they want available and then are charged accordingly.
Personally, I like to think of it as a TPM (tiered payment model) game.
Sub members will get everything unlocked. Nothing will change for them.
The cash shop contains items for Outfitting and potions and stuff. Nothing required. Plus VIP members (subbed) get 1000 turbine points a month to spend on whatever on top of having everything.
Nothing will be different, population will just go up which is a good thing. The game seems really empty at times.
Your fail comment, failed.
I'm not rly sure how it will affect the game. But I might go back to now that its F2P!
The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.
We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...
- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.
- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of management direction is pretty much academic. The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.
- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward. It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:
. What items will be in the cash shop?
.To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?
. How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?
. What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?
. What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?
. In the past, content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?
. What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?
. To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?
. How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?
. How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?
. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?
. To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?
The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it. Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.
Uhhh...actually turbine HAS answered many of the questions you posted. Want info just go to the Free-To-Play discussion forum and read http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=335135
That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.
At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.
In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.
Hmm. Might be getting somewhere here. Are you saying things should only be judged when they are actually DONE?
So what's up with all the doomcriers in this thread then?
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Maybe if you had high lighted the part of Grumpys post about 'no plans for overt magic' and' no plans for F2P' you would understand better what is up with the "doomcriers".
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I guess you missed the whole part about their not all bad................. You have a guilty concious?
Guilty conscience? For quitting a game? Really? Or am I supposed to feel guilty about not paying a sub fee so the F2P crowd can play for nothing? I really think that is the whole problem this new found LOTRO fan base is having. If the vets dont pay how are they going to play for nothing?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
No difference. I did not care when they said "no plans for F2P", and I do not care now, since it is still not implemented. I will wait and see how it turns out, and if they ruin the game, I will yell. Until then, it's only paranoia, nothing else.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.