Originally posted by Atak Wurm and Xsyon are pure sandbox. They have stuff like terraforming wich second life doesnt have. .
. Mmmm, you can terroform in Second Life. People do it all the time. . In Second Life, you can make a six foot long penis for yourself and walk around town. Can you do that in Xsyon?
Originally posted by uquipu Originally posted by AtakWurm and Xsyon are pure sandbox. They have stuff like terraforming wich second life doesnt have. .
. Mmmm, you can terroform in Second Life. People do it all the time. . In Second Life, you can make a six foot long penis for yourself and walk around town. Can you do that in Xsyon?
Once again, for the very very slow:
Second life is NOT a game. It is a VR framework in which some people have made games, among other things.
Calling SL a game is like calling "the internet" a game.
Originally posted by Atak You solo oriented players already have a whole catalog of single player , multiplayer and massively multiplayer games and your still crying about us people that are able to actually socialise with people trough teamwork and fun.
Right, and don't forget to include every single crafter out there, because crafting is an inherently solo activity.
MMO's are not about cooperative play, they are about persistent virtual worlds in which players can encounter other players, work with them, work against them, or just go off on an adventure, and come back to the population centers to interact with other players through the markets and such.
So a 'solo player' in an mmo is exactly like a crafter.. does his own thing, then interacts with others to share the result or to pickup more supplies.
Where's the choice for "Trying to appeal even to groupers" or "Catering to the hardcore crowd".
Gotta love a poll with an obvious agenda.
Bingo.
Just what the forums needed: another solo vs group play thread.
Also it needed another option: "The name of the thread may as well be 'why people don't like ice cream, anymore', cuz MMO's AREN'T dying. Far from it."
Quality MMO's are dying, you are stuck with casual f2p wow clones mostly now.
You solo oriented players already have a whole catalog of single player , multiplayer and massively multiplayer games and your still crying about us people that are able to actually socialise with people trough teamwork and fun. This is why i like Xsyon, it's really focused on teamwork and little soloers like you are totally worthless in the world, i love that kind of game .
Quality MMO's are not dying. I love posts like this. They assume the genre was something it never has been, and then pop an uninformed opinion on top of that assumption and label it as fact.
Fact: MMO's have been out since around 1996.
Fact: In 1997 there was one decent MMO. It was called Ultima Online. Meridian 59 was also around, but nobody had heard of it.
Fact: In 1998 there were three total MMO's on the market. Ultima Online, EverQuest, and Meridian 59. UO was a sandbox. EQ was a theme park. Meridian 59 was getting a little more popular because people wanted to prove how oldskool they were by having M59 accounts.
Fact: In 1999 there were Four MMO's on the market worth mentioning. Ultima Online had been patched to death. Trammel was on the horizon. Meridian 59 was still full of wankers trying to prove how awesome and oldskool they were. EQ was hugely popular, called EverCrack, but honestly the theme park nature of the game got boring after 3 months, Anarchy Online was released and needed a year to actually be playable, and Asheron's Call was out. Darktide was where it was at.
More things happened later. Mostly a bunch of free games and botched releases. DAoC, Shadowbane, AC2, Lineage, whatever. Theres a reason most of these games are forgotten. They sucked.
2003: World of Warcraft dethrones Everquest. Asheron's Call gets the Viamontian patch and sucks more than ever. Decent MMO's are essentially dead. DAoC is enthroned as an MMO king because people dont have anything left, not because it was super great. At its best it was a mediocre product.
Fast forward to today. Same situation as post 1999. Lots of games coming out. Most of them forgettable. People want to enthrone a game, but theres really nothing out besides mediocrity and sub mediocrity. But this is really the way its always been. The genre isnt dying. Its growing. It just isnt a very good genre, so we dont get very good games!
[ X ] Publishers care more about money than about the game.
Publishers realize that there are only so many players in the market, and the large majority of them are either happily playing the game they will be playing for the next 5 years, or simply hop from game to game and maybe play for a month or two at most. So, these publishers are going to make the same amount of money whether they spend 1 million or 90 million on production. Why not just spend 1 million and rake in the box sales to cover the costs and make a small profit?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You solo oriented players already have a whole catalog of single player , multiplayer and massively multiplayer games and your still crying about us people that are able to actually socialise with people trough teamwork and fun.
Right, and don't forget to include every single crafter out there, because crafting is an inherently solo activity.
MMO's are not about cooperative play, they are about persistent virtual worlds in which players can encounter other players, work with them, work against them, or just go off on an adventure, and come back to the population centers to interact with other players through the markets and such.
So a 'solo player' in an mmo is exactly like a crafter.. does his own thing, then interacts with others to share the result or to pickup more supplies.
You are stuck with the old traditionnal crafter dedicated toon mentality my friend. Get with the times.
[ X ] Publishers care more about money than about the game.
Publishers realize that there are only so many players in the market, and the large majority of them are either happily playing the game they will be playing for the next 5 years, or simply hop from game to game and maybe play for a month or two at most. So, these publishers are going to make the same amount of money whether they spend 1 million or 90 million on production. Why not just spend 1 million and rake in the box sales to cover the costs and make a small profit?
OP do have a point even if I believe that MMOs are far from dying.
MMO genres are fantasy and Sci-fi. There are so many more genres that would be really fun. Here is a few (some of them have a game in development or even a released one but the genre is still almost non existing):
1. Historical. No magic, monster or other junk, history is fun enough on it's own for a MMO.
2. Cyberpunk. A mix between man and machine in the near future, there have been several popular P&P games in this setting.
3. Western. Historical or with some fantasy elements in.
4. Horror. I want a Lovecraft based MMO.
5. Crime. Detective, mafia or law enforcement based game set anywhere from the 30s to the near future.
6, Mythological. A game set in Greece, Irish or Norse mythology. Differs somewhat from fantasy where anything goes.
7. Action. Something like A-Team the MMO or similar.
[ X ] Publishers care more about money than about the game.
Publishers realize that there are only so many players in the market, and the large majority of them are either happily playing the game they will be playing for the next 5 years, or simply hop from game to game and maybe play for a month or two at most. So, these publishers are going to make the same amount of money whether they spend 1 million or 90 million on production. Why not just spend 1 million and rake in the box sales to cover the costs and make a small profit?
Pick capitalism then
I don't blame capitalism. That's like blaming communism for the Vietname war. It wasn't communism that caused the Vietname war and it's not the fault of capitalism that MMORPGs are failing, it's a few thousand greedy mother f*(ckers.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
[ X ] Publishers care more about money than about the game.
Publishers realize that there are only so many players in the market, and the large majority of them are either happily playing the game they will be playing for the next 5 years, or simply hop from game to game and maybe play for a month or two at most. So, these publishers are going to make the same amount of money whether they spend 1 million or 90 million on production. Why not just spend 1 million and rake in the box sales to cover the costs and make a small profit?
Pick capitalism then
I don't blame capitalism. That's like blaming communism for the Vietname war. It wasn't communism that caused the Vietname war and it's not the fault of capitalism that MMORPGs are failing, it's a few thousand greedy mother f*(ckers.
Agreed, should have replaced capitalism with greedy bastards.
Wurm and Xsyon are pure sandbox. They have stuff like terraforming wich second life doesnt have. .
. Mmmm, you can terroform in Second Life. People do it all the time. . In Second Life, you can make a six foot long penis for yourself and walk around town. Can you do that in Xsyon?
Once again, for the very very slow:
Second life is NOT a game. It is a VR framework in which some people have made games, among other things.
Calling SL a game is like calling "the internet" a game.
. Is SL massive? Mmmmm... I'm going with yes since 60k on at one time is not unheard of. . Is SL multi-player? See above. . Is SL online? Yep . Does SL have role-playing? Tons. . Is it a game? It has a combat system. People play SL to past the time. So I'm going with yes. . If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
My personal opinion is that MMOs recently have had no depth. They are challengeless, and lack any sort of creativity.
Another big problem is that they are essentially solo games now. A players is expected to solo quest grind until max level, then it becomes about grouping and raiding just to get gear. No thanks, I'll play a singleplayer game.
A lot of MMOs lack any sort of economy, and most of the gear is no drop(aka BOP). This doesn't foster interaction amongst gamers. Again, I'd rather just play a singleplayer game, becaue I know I will never be a pve raider.
The complete lack of challenge and social interaction has driven me from MMOs, and made me pick up singleplayer games again.
My personal opinion is that MMOs recently have had no depth. They are challengeless, and lack any sort of creativity.
Another big problem is that they are essentially solo games now. A players is expected to solo quest grind until max level, then it becomes about grouping and raiding just to get gear. No thanks, I'll play a singleplayer game.
A lot of MMOs lack any sort of economy, and most of the gear is no drop(aka BOP). This doesn't foster interaction amongst gamers. Again, I'd rather just play a singleplayer game, becaue I know I will never be a pve raider.
The complete lack of challenge and social interaction has driven me from MMOs, and made me pick up singleplayer games again.
best post in the whole thread by far. I can totally relate and agree.
I like the fact that you point out stuff like nodrop and soulbinds etc that destroy interaction even further.
I would like to point out that the poll totally exceeds my expectations already in very little time. I would like to thank everyone who voted already.
1: Originality 35.2%
2: Immersion 12.3%
3: Capitalism AKA GREEDY BASTARDS 9.8%
after more than 120 votes.
That seriously tells a lot to me , altough i voted myself that it's because they want to appeal too much to solo gamers, those reasons are all valid.
I have not gotten any feedback thats negative except from solo players trying to find a poll that makes their solo oriented visions into statistics but why would i consider a solo player's opinion if he is selfish ? Isnt it true that group oriented players are more social thus making their opinions more valuable than someone who just wants to be selfish ? correct me if im wrong.
I think that immersion is lacking due to many factors. One of the most immersive games i have played is Neocron from 2001-2006. It had a top notch soundtrack by expert soundcrafters like Steve Roach and Max Corbacho and Ian Boddy. Those ambient artist can account to a high immersion feeling and the neocron original soundtrack made me discover the ambient genre as well as the game.
MMO's need to hire crew's of dj's 24/7 ingame mmo radios are the future. Instead of wasting time developping cash shop gimmicks they should implement new original features.
Only thing I would vote for that is not on the list is quality. They push half assed games with bugs, lack of content, incomplete concepts. I will never buy a new game pre-order. What is the point. You get something that could be a good game but because they did not take the time to work it out you get something that people bitch and complain to death. Half the population leaves. Game works at minimal profit. They put the stuff suppose to be in at lauch months later. Only half the people give it another try because they are on to other stuff. Development team gets cut and moves to new projects. Game withers on the vine till it dies.
The reason any MMO doesn't do as well at launch as it was hyped is that developers try and juggle too many new features while still trying to please as large an audience as possible. Someone said, "Making an MMO isn't about making worlds, it's about making a fun game."
Wrong! It is about making worlds! What the hell is an MMO if it isn't MASSIVE? And I'm sorry to anyone who thinks instancing is great but anywhere outside of a "dungeon" environment is game breaking.
MMO's die because developers can't handle the 6 pillars of any MMO game. Those are:
Player versus environment encounters throughout, including the end game.
Player versus player encounters throughout, including the end game.
Crafting.
Some sort of economy.
Vast interconnected environments.
and Conflict through a compelling story.
If the distance is vast, sure a "portal" makes sense otherwise, there had better be amazing and diverse content every time you make the journey. Going from one zone to another that is its geographical neighbor does NOT even slightly need a load screen.
I think what needs to happen within these giant publishers such as EA and Activision - Blizzard is that resources need to be split up among development houses. Similar to what EA is doing with the Medal of Honor franchise havign EA - Dice handle the multiplayer side of things. The game industry already does this with the technical side of things, server operating systems, game engines, etc. Point is the larger you become or your product becomes the more difficult it is to manage. There's a reason manufacturing has adopted a multifaceted approach to building anything, it works, and software companies should follow suit.
Only thing I would vote for that is not on the list is quality. They push half assed games with bugs, lack of content, incomplete concepts. I will never buy a new game pre-order. What is the point. You get something that could be a good game but because they did not take the time to work it out you get something that people bitch and complain to death. Half the population leaves. Game works at minimal profit. They put the stuff suppose to be in at lauch months later. Only half the people give it another try because they are on to other stuff. Development team gets cut and moves to new projects. Game withers on the vine till it dies.
The only thing i ever preordered in my life is Xsyon. 39 bucks and i have 60 days, the game, a unique weapon. I really do not have much to lose except faith in the game if it fails. I guess its a good investment but i did not fall for Mortal Online. I hope Xsyon will not get the same fate as MO.
This also is another very good reason , cheaters(hacking,duping,exploiting) are everywhere.
Well ... I think "lack of originality" gets closest.
Thought I would have rather said "lack of vision". Originality itself isnt the problem, its lack of having a real vision of a game.
Aside from "I want to make lots of money", "I want great graphics", "I want to have as much success as WoW, so I copy that game in every respect", "I want even kiddies to be able to play this game" and "I want to do the same all over again, only with new names and better graphics".
Comments
Mmmm, you can terroform in Second Life. People do it all the time.
.
In Second Life, you can make a six foot long penis for yourself and walk around town. Can you do that in Xsyon?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Mmmm, you can terroform in Second Life. People do it all the time.
.
In Second Life, you can make a six foot long penis for yourself and walk around town. Can you do that in Xsyon?
Once again, for the very very slow:
Second life is NOT a game. It is a VR framework in which some people have made games, among other things.
Calling SL a game is like calling "the internet" a game.
thats the point, you dont terraform, you change everything instantly, no work required in second life.
Right, and don't forget to include every single crafter out there, because crafting is an inherently solo activity.
MMO's are not about cooperative play, they are about persistent virtual worlds in which players can encounter other players, work with them, work against them, or just go off on an adventure, and come back to the population centers to interact with other players through the markets and such.
So a 'solo player' in an mmo is exactly like a crafter.. does his own thing, then interacts with others to share the result or to pickup more supplies.
Quality MMO's are not dying. I love posts like this. They assume the genre was something it never has been, and then pop an uninformed opinion on top of that assumption and label it as fact.
Fact: MMO's have been out since around 1996.
Fact: In 1997 there was one decent MMO. It was called Ultima Online. Meridian 59 was also around, but nobody had heard of it.
Fact: In 1998 there were three total MMO's on the market. Ultima Online, EverQuest, and Meridian 59. UO was a sandbox. EQ was a theme park. Meridian 59 was getting a little more popular because people wanted to prove how oldskool they were by having M59 accounts.
Fact: In 1999 there were Four MMO's on the market worth mentioning. Ultima Online had been patched to death. Trammel was on the horizon. Meridian 59 was still full of wankers trying to prove how awesome and oldskool they were. EQ was hugely popular, called EverCrack, but honestly the theme park nature of the game got boring after 3 months, Anarchy Online was released and needed a year to actually be playable, and Asheron's Call was out. Darktide was where it was at.
More things happened later. Mostly a bunch of free games and botched releases. DAoC, Shadowbane, AC2, Lineage, whatever. Theres a reason most of these games are forgotten. They sucked.
2003: World of Warcraft dethrones Everquest. Asheron's Call gets the Viamontian patch and sucks more than ever. Decent MMO's are essentially dead. DAoC is enthroned as an MMO king because people dont have anything left, not because it was super great. At its best it was a mediocre product.
Fast forward to today. Same situation as post 1999. Lots of games coming out. Most of them forgettable. People want to enthrone a game, but theres really nothing out besides mediocrity and sub mediocrity. But this is really the way its always been. The genre isnt dying. Its growing. It just isnt a very good genre, so we dont get very good games!
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
This.
END OF LINE_
~V
[ X ] Publishers care more about money than about the game.
Publishers realize that there are only so many players in the market, and the large majority of them are either happily playing the game they will be playing for the next 5 years, or simply hop from game to game and maybe play for a month or two at most. So, these publishers are going to make the same amount of money whether they spend 1 million or 90 million on production. Why not just spend 1 million and rake in the box sales to cover the costs and make a small profit?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You are stuck with the old traditionnal crafter dedicated toon mentality my friend. Get with the times.
for ex : in Xsyon everyone crafts.
Pick capitalism then
OP do have a point even if I believe that MMOs are far from dying.
MMO genres are fantasy and Sci-fi. There are so many more genres that would be really fun. Here is a few (some of them have a game in development or even a released one but the genre is still almost non existing):
1. Historical. No magic, monster or other junk, history is fun enough on it's own for a MMO.
2. Cyberpunk. A mix between man and machine in the near future, there have been several popular P&P games in this setting.
3. Western. Historical or with some fantasy elements in.
4. Horror. I want a Lovecraft based MMO.
5. Crime. Detective, mafia or law enforcement based game set anywhere from the 30s to the near future.
6, Mythological. A game set in Greece, Irish or Norse mythology. Differs somewhat from fantasy where anything goes.
7. Action. Something like A-Team the MMO or similar.
And there are more possibilities than that...
I don't blame capitalism. That's like blaming communism for the Vietname war. It wasn't communism that caused the Vietname war and it's not the fault of capitalism that MMORPGs are failing, it's a few thousand greedy mother f*(ckers.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
This is by far the posts that makes me really wonder the most. I want to analyse this further.
These people think that MMO's fail because they try to appeal to groupers and to the hardcore crowd.
Its really scary if you think about it.
Any mmo that has forced grouping from start to finnish ?
Any mmo forcing you to play 80 hours a week ?
Most mmo's force you to solo right off when you start.
Actually truth is I think the MMO genre is dead if you think it is, but its only dead to you.
Agreed, should have replaced capitalism with greedy bastards.
Is SL massive? Mmmmm... I'm going with yes since 60k on at one time is not unheard of.
.
Is SL multi-player? See above.
.
Is SL online? Yep
.
Does SL have role-playing? Tons.
.
Is it a game? It has a combat system. People play SL to past the time. So I'm going with yes.
.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
My personal opinion is that MMOs recently have had no depth. They are challengeless, and lack any sort of creativity.
Another big problem is that they are essentially solo games now. A players is expected to solo quest grind until max level, then it becomes about grouping and raiding just to get gear. No thanks, I'll play a singleplayer game.
A lot of MMOs lack any sort of economy, and most of the gear is no drop(aka BOP). This doesn't foster interaction amongst gamers. Again, I'd rather just play a singleplayer game, becaue I know I will never be a pve raider.
The complete lack of challenge and social interaction has driven me from MMOs, and made me pick up singleplayer games again.
best post in the whole thread by far. I can totally relate and agree.
I like the fact that you point out stuff like nodrop and soulbinds etc that destroy interaction even further.
I would like to point out that the poll totally exceeds my expectations already in very little time. I would like to thank everyone who voted already.
1: Originality 35.2%
2: Immersion 12.3%
3: Capitalism AKA GREEDY BASTARDS 9.8%
after more than 120 votes.
That seriously tells a lot to me , altough i voted myself that it's because they want to appeal too much to solo gamers, those reasons are all valid.
I have not gotten any feedback thats negative except from solo players trying to find a poll that makes their solo oriented visions into statistics but why would i consider a solo player's opinion if he is selfish ? Isnt it true that group oriented players are more social thus making their opinions more valuable than someone who just wants to be selfish ? correct me if im wrong.
I think that immersion is lacking due to many factors. One of the most immersive games i have played is Neocron from 2001-2006. It had a top notch soundtrack by expert soundcrafters like Steve Roach and Max Corbacho and Ian Boddy. Those ambient artist can account to a high immersion feeling and the neocron original soundtrack made me discover the ambient genre as well as the game.
MMO's need to hire crew's of dj's 24/7 ingame mmo radios are the future. Instead of wasting time developping cash shop gimmicks they should implement new original features.
Only thing I would vote for that is not on the list is quality. They push half assed games with bugs, lack of content, incomplete concepts. I will never buy a new game pre-order. What is the point. You get something that could be a good game but because they did not take the time to work it out you get something that people bitch and complain to death. Half the population leaves. Game works at minimal profit. They put the stuff suppose to be in at lauch months later. Only half the people give it another try because they are on to other stuff. Development team gets cut and moves to new projects. Game withers on the vine till it dies.
The reason any MMO doesn't do as well at launch as it was hyped is that developers try and juggle too many new features while still trying to please as large an audience as possible. Someone said, "Making an MMO isn't about making worlds, it's about making a fun game."
Wrong! It is about making worlds! What the hell is an MMO if it isn't MASSIVE? And I'm sorry to anyone who thinks instancing is great but anywhere outside of a "dungeon" environment is game breaking.
MMO's die because developers can't handle the 6 pillars of any MMO game. Those are:
Player versus environment encounters throughout, including the end game.
Player versus player encounters throughout, including the end game.
Crafting.
Some sort of economy.
Vast interconnected environments.
and Conflict through a compelling story.
If the distance is vast, sure a "portal" makes sense otherwise, there had better be amazing and diverse content every time you make the journey. Going from one zone to another that is its geographical neighbor does NOT even slightly need a load screen.
I think what needs to happen within these giant publishers such as EA and Activision - Blizzard is that resources need to be split up among development houses. Similar to what EA is doing with the Medal of Honor franchise havign EA - Dice handle the multiplayer side of things. The game industry already does this with the technical side of things, server operating systems, game engines, etc. Point is the larger you become or your product becomes the more difficult it is to manage. There's a reason manufacturing has adopted a multifaceted approach to building anything, it works, and software companies should follow suit.
http://www.livestream.com/jasdemiatmo/video?clipId=pla_bfd55dcd-ff57-4823-a2c7-eedfa7712a2d&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb
The only thing i ever preordered in my life is Xsyon. 39 bucks and i have 60 days, the game, a unique weapon. I really do not have much to lose except faith in the game if it fails. I guess its a good investment but i did not fall for Mortal Online. I hope Xsyon will not get the same fate as MO.
This also is another very good reason , cheaters(hacking,duping,exploiting) are everywhere.
Well ... I think "lack of originality" gets closest.
Thought I would have rather said "lack of vision". Originality itself isnt the problem, its lack of having a real vision of a game.
Aside from "I want to make lots of money", "I want great graphics", "I want to have as much success as WoW, so I copy that game in every respect", "I want even kiddies to be able to play this game" and "I want to do the same all over again, only with new names and better graphics".
To be fair, the "capitalism" and "cash shop whoring" are pretty similar, at least they are to me. I'd count them together.
Wheres the 'Not enough appealing to soloers' choice in this poll??
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
MMOs are failing because developers keep releasing the same game over and over.
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