Players in general don't respond to originality, they respond to popularity. Hype a game up enough and everyone loves it. Hate on a game and everyone is hating on it to fit in. Most gamers are predictable and the industry is as predictable as the players. The industry won't change until we do.
The only indie games that will do well are the ones following the clone format. It's strange to consider that from a business stand point perhaps the cloners are the smart ones. We act like clones, so the industry follows the format we respond to.
I would like to say one day "I to fought in the Clone Wars." It seems like everyone is working for the Empire now adays...
As a soloer, I picked "originality". I like to play MMO's for the economic aspect, like crafting and playing the AH. So, to me, a game that forced me to group to get anywhere would not see a sub from me.
To give you an understanding - let's take Fantasy MMO's.
WoW - Perfect World - Allods - Cabal - Silkroad
I can list more but we'll leave it there for now. Each one of those games involve exactly the same things. Literally everything is the same, only thing thats different is the graphics style is different, different mob/avatar designs and different maps. They all still consist of just the main aspect of the game, which is grind your way up levels by killing endless amounts of mobs that aren't really difficult to kill. After you've reached cap keep yourself in denial that there is still a reason to play the game.
Ideas they could use to vary the gameplay between these different mmo's: Well i'm not dev but i'd give random on-the-spot suggestions of maybe not making the game not too level orientated. i.e Sure there's still level's but the game isnt based completely around that, maybe it could be more based around controlling ingame land for your guild.
I'll give you an example with EVE online. That's not so much level based. When it comes to pvp a 3 month year old player could kil a 3 year old player - but it all depends on how he fits his ship. That's where actual skill comes in (not just mindless go in to pvp arena and bash 3 keys). With EVE pvp theres probably about millions of combinations you can fit a ship, so the fight actually begins even before you lay the first blow. I mean thats just one example of EVE i've given that shows some sort of variance compared to other mmo's.
To be honest though, regardless of what i've discussed so far. I don't think mmo genres are dying. Online gaming is just growing so fast these days. But my point is still valid.
I think the developers need to drop the whole WOW clone game . There are some that say WOW was a great game but i think this was true mabyee the year it came out but not now . Now anyone can pick up a wow account for almost nothing the gold spammers have sucked most of the enjoyment out of the game .
Its graphics are outdated and there are games more fun to play and prettier then WOW. Maybee if they stoped trying to copy a game that is as old as the hat and started putting new idea's on the table instead of cloning a old style game there might be more success.
From WOW i will not deny alot of good idea's were grasped and Blizzard Entertainment is one of the best Marketer's on the plannet . WOW is popular for 2 reasons.
1. It Came in the first wave of mmo's in the new age
2.Its Marketing still to this day is Brilliant.
My Opinon is there are far more interesting game out there then WOW now this isnt to say WOW didnt have its place it opened the door to most MMO's out there today with a few exceptions. I think its time to move on and forward and stop looking back at a game that had its time and look to the future.
So i think it is time to look at things fresh and stop Referencing every mmo and compairing it to World of Warcraft. There are other games out there now and there are quite a few games better then the aging ones. Sure alot of the idea's stemed from games like WOW but i am sure the developers stole idea's for wow off other games aswell.
If more Developers would take the example of EVE Online ot even games like Fallen Earth and Wonderking. Or on the extreme Darkfall and think outside the box moving away from the WOW stero type. I think Games would be far more Enjoyable to play .Many of us forget the most important thing about Gamming .
Games are played to have FUN.
For the developer that brings the single player encaptavating world and encompasses that into a Multiplayer Game the $ will come in Droves.
** All spelling mistakes and grammar is for the enjoyment of readers.**
Current games; Star treck online Rift Eve online Firefall
Hey OP: Why not a selection for "All Of The Above"?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The real thing that is killing MMOs these days is too much theme park and not enough sand box. There has not been a high quality sandbox game made in nearly a decade. The last quality sandbox MMO was SWG released back in 2003 and they changed that game into a theme park with the infamous NGE. Now every game is the same with way too much hand holding. The early MMOs promised a virtual world to explore and they delivered. Then it was like some suit said no more sandboxes. Everyone must play theme parks. It is not WoW that is being endlessly copied it theme parks.
The real thing that is killing MMOs these days is too much theme park and not enough sand box. There has not been a high quality sandbox game made in nearly a decade. The last quality sandbox MMO was SWG released back in 2003 and they changed that game into a theme park with the infamous NGE. Now every game is the same with way too much hand holding. The early MMOs promised a virtual world to explore and they delivered. Then it was like some suit said no more sandboxes. Everyone must play theme parks. It is not WoW that is being endlessly copied it theme parks.
Yes I would Agree with this statement we were promised huge worlds to explore but we are given worlds that constantly put restraints on us and set how we are to play like a themepark .
What happend to the MMO's that offered richness and divercity. There are only a few that i can see out there now days that even come close.
Current games; Star treck online Rift Eve online Firefall
The real thing that is killing MMOs these days is too much theme park and not enough sand box. There has not been a high quality sandbox game made in nearly a decade. The last quality sandbox MMO was SWG released back in 2003 and they changed that game into a theme park with the infamous NGE. Now every game is the same with way too much hand holding. The early MMOs promised a virtual world to explore and they delivered. Then it was like some suit said no more sandboxes. Everyone must play theme parks. It is not WoW that is being endlessly copied it theme parks.
Yes I would Agree with this statement we were promised huge worlds to explore but we are given worlds that constantly put restraints on us and set how we are to play like a themepark .
What happend to the MMO's that offered richness and divercity. There are only a few that i can see out there now days that even come close.
Yeah, I have to agree with that too, even though I usually argue against any 'genre is dying' threads. Darkfall or Vanguard might be my favorite MMO right now because of this fact, if only I could get them to run on my computer without crashing every couple minutes (more Nvidia driver issues that I don't want to spend half my subscription time troubleshooting).
I'd be happier If there were more sandbox competitors, but I'm fine with theme park style mmos too. It's just a different style, and would be good if the market just split these MMOs in to two different sub-genres kinda like RTS and TBS.
Just stick with calling them all F2P SBMMO, F2P TPMMO, P2P TPMMO, and P2P SBMMO. WTB more of the latter! And keep MMOFPS as MP-FPS, & MMORTS as MP-RTS, FFS lol!
My personal opinion is that MMOs recently have had no depth. They are challengeless, and lack any sort of creativity.
Another big problem is that they are essentially solo games now. A players is expected to solo quest grind until max level, then it becomes about grouping and raiding just to get gear. No thanks, I'll play a singleplayer game.
A lot of MMOs lack any sort of economy, and most of the gear is no drop(aka BOP). This doesn't foster interaction amongst gamers. Again, I'd rather just play a singleplayer game, becaue I know I will never be a pve raider.
The complete lack of challenge and social interaction has driven me from MMOs, and made me pick up singleplayer games again.
best post in the whole thread by far. I can totally relate and agree.
I like the fact that you point out stuff like nodrop and soulbinds etc that destroy interaction even further.
I disagree.
My perception is that the above does not apply to the number one MMO being played (and a lot of others too).
It is no longer essentially a solo game to level (choice of level through PvP, group dungeons, quests or mob kills).
It can be a hell of a challenge according to what you set out as your own limit (PvP or PVE hardcore challenge and titles).
The guild play is the only real long term basic social interaction in any MMo.
So what we see here is a poster who says he is ... anti social ("I will never be a pve raider", is clearly NOT functioning in a guild and is seeking the traditional gameplay value of a single player game ... and is complaining about it ... ?!?!?).
He's no MMO player at all.
So he has the worst post of the whole thread as he ignores core grouping mechanics.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
To give you an understanding - let's take Fantasy MMO's.
WoW - Perfect World - Allods - Cabal - Silkroad
I can list more but we'll leave it there for now. Each one of those games involve exactly the same things. Literally everything is the same, only thing thats different is the graphics style is different, different mob/avatar designs and different maps. They all still consist of just the main aspect of the game, which is grind your way up levels by killing endless amounts of mobs that aren't really difficult to kill. After you've reached cap keep yourself in denial that there is still a reason to play the game.
Ideas they could use to vary the gameplay between these different mmo's: Well i'm not dev but i'd give random on-the-spot suggestions of maybe not making the game not too level orientated. i.e Sure there's still level's but the game isnt based completely around that, maybe it could be more based around controlling ingame land for your guild.
Oh Dear God....
Ok Let's take on the challenge here and still react from a Blizzard standpoint and not even talk about "polish and quality" and just take you on "mechanics" you talk about....
How many games you cited can put OFF experience gains at will? Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited can go to maximum level by doing PvP only ? Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited have an out of the game economy and Auction House on another platform. Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited have a complete - out of the game - e-sport status attached to it? Surely a ladder based sports competition is endless (around 3 billion people would agree).
When I read such disdain posts about WOW (citing it with about the lowest free to play MMo trash you can get) always makes me wonder who are these posters anyway.
No wonder you can't find "anything" decent, except the usual boring forum reference
You can't distinguish between trash and simple gaming options.
.
This is a games industry: it is about making high standard GAME products and you compare the industry leader with cheaply produced surrogates.
You lost the road to game design completely: this is all about gameplay, not about "a setting" nor "fantasy", nor "Lore".
Gameplay first. That's all that counts. If you don't even see the basic difference in mechanics, you can't analyse anything.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Ok Let's take on the challenge here and still react from a Blizzard standpoint and not even talk about "polish and quality" and just take you on "mechanics" you talk about....
****How many games you cited can put OFF experience gains at will? Surely a new way to play it.
****How many games you cited can go to maximum level by doing PvP only ? Surely a new way to play it.
****How many games you cited have an out of the game economy and Auction House on another platform. Surely a new way to play it.
****How many games you cited have a complete - out of the game - e-sport status attached to it? Surely a ladder based sports competition is endless (around 3 billion people would agree).
Tbh, i would put you in the denial department of gamers: those who are playing a game that they spent alot of time on, but they don't want to stop as subconciously they will realise that all that time spent was wasted. I'm speaking from experience here.
First thing though, See all those points you mention - they are just small aspects to the game. It's not like they break or make the actual gameplay of the game. "Oh wow has this one added feature where you can level by pvp which = best game in world ". I mean if anything you're the one that's being ignorant - not meaning it as an insult... But most wow players are. They're so into the game that they will deny anything that goes against it and completely block it off.
I have played WoW for a decent period of time (4 months or so), but i wouldnt say i got addicted to it as some people do. But to explain to you what i meant by "players in denial", which i mentioned earlier: i did play a game called Last Chaos, which i used to play something like 7 hours a day, going late into most nights. They had an item shop too, which in the space of 8 months of intense play i spent about $1,3k on. That's how into the game i was. Used to sleep like 4 am at night after 8 (sometimes 10) hour plays. Near the end of the 8 Months, mentally i could feel myself fighting (a little down to the fact that i had maxed cap) against myself. I would think,
"maybe i should stop, its not like its that enjoyable now. Sure i made great friends, but i'm not going to continue playing this game just on that basis - but if the whole reason why i'm staying here is friends, it doesnt say much about the game..." After about a week of hesitation i quit (i actually came back 2 weeks later, but then left again after a week for good)... Near the end of the last few months of me playing Last Chaos, i realised i was just keeping myself in denial to continue playing the game i just couldnt admit it. That's exactly what i think most of these 'addicted' wow players are feeling.
If you want to talk about features though,
WoW doesnt enable players to control ingame Land which you can use to earn ingame money with. In PW there are huge pvp tournaments held with land as prize.
WoW doesnt have an indepth item upgrading system, where there are multiple tiers and options you can choose from depending on the purpose of the item like LC.
Like i said before, these are just small features, they dont make or break the game. Also like i said before, im not going to go naming every mmo so i just took a selection. But point 3 in your list of "How's", Entropia Universe has, also EvE. Also to highlight something in point 2 "How many games you cited can go to maximum level by doing PvP only ?"
This is the problem with most mmo's. The whole gameplay is concentrated around levels "oh you need to be the highest level possible, go out and grind"... This is one of the reasons why most mmo's are the same. Sure its an mmorpg and it has to have level (i'm not saying it shouldnt have levels), but not base the whole game on just leveling. EvE for example, leveling skills comes secondary to actually doing stuff for the fun of it, in some cases doing stuff so you can actually own parts of space.
I.E taking down POS's (Player owned sort of buildings - if you dont know), Exploring wormholes (in which case there's a big chance of you actually getting lost, and the only way to find your way back to main space is kill yourself if you dont have the right tools). I mean with EvE it puts all the exciting stuff first and skilling up levels is a discreet aspect to the game.
Once again i just took EVE as an example for this particular case.
Where's the choice for "Trying to appeal even to groupers" or "Catering to the hardcore crowd".
Gotta love a poll with an obvious agenda.
I agree that that should have been a choice so that YOU could click it. But tell me.....what game TRIES to appeal to groupers and caters to the "hardcore crowd?" If you say WoW...I'm going to laugh. Are you just talking simply about having RAIDING in the game? If the OPTION (and indeed that's all it is) to GROUP (or raid or whatever) is so awful to you.....why don't you just play single player games? I mean....soloing is pretty much an option in all MMOs any more. So why should there not also be the option to group?? O.o
i'd add aging genre/playerbase. i started playing MMORPGs with UO in '97. i do not have a decade-long attention span and have no interest in repeating the same generic leveling and grinding mechanics i participated in EQ, AO, AOC, COH, etc.
i have moved on to EVE and will not look back. when i need an RPG fix i fire up the xbox 360 and play dragon age, mass effect, fable, etc.
Originally posted by Atak 17.4% out of 4642 people want a new fantasy game. That's 800+ people I bet there's more than 800 fantasy based mmo's. Hard to believe seriously... absolutely no originality Discuss
None of the above. Most MMOs die because they are *bad games*--bug ridden with poorly thought out gameplay. This is most often because they were rushed out the door before they were finished.
My personal opinion is that MMOs recently have had no depth. They are challengeless, and lack any sort of creativity.
Another big problem is that they are essentially solo games now. A players is expected to solo quest grind until max level, then it becomes about grouping and raiding just to get gear. No thanks, I'll play a singleplayer game.
A lot of MMOs lack any sort of economy, and most of the gear is no drop(aka BOP). This doesn't foster interaction amongst gamers. Again, I'd rather just play a singleplayer game, becaue I know I will never be a pve raider.
The complete lack of challenge and social interaction has driven me from MMOs, and made me pick up singleplayer games again.
best post in the whole thread by far. I can totally relate and agree.
I like the fact that you point out stuff like nodrop and soulbinds etc that destroy interaction even further.
I disagree.
My perception is that the above does not apply to the number one MMO being played (and a lot of others too).
It is no longer essentially a solo game to level (choice of level through PvP, group dungeons, quests or mob kills).
It can be a hell of a challenge according to what you set out as your own limit (PvP or PVE hardcore challenge and titles).
The guild play is the only real long term basic social interaction in any MMo.
So what we see here is a poster who says he is ... anti social ("I will never be a pve raider", is clearly NOT functioning in a guild and is seeking the traditional gameplay value of a single player game ... and is complaining about it ... ?!?!?).
He's no MMO player at all.
So he has the worst post of the whole thread as he ignores core grouping mechanics.
Yes because using the old guild mechanic like most games out there is better. He points out that since you can solo the whole game the challenge is gone because the social aspect of mmo's should be the key to gaining power you cannot obtain alone.
Clearly i fully agree with him and i have a huge pve background and i love pve it's a core element like pvp to me for a game to feel complete. I think people the R in MMORPG, and clearly people need to read the definition of role again.
A socially expected behavior pattern usually determined by an individual's status in a particular society, thats what a role is to me.
Hard to believe seriously... absolutely no originality
Discuss
I have to agree that the title of the thread could have fostered better discussion about an implausible likelihood that MMOs would could be smitten at the very same economic system that make it possible for everyone in the world to play F2P and P2P games. What I find even more at odds is the possible answer to why MMOs would die is somehow link to capitalism, which puts the whole title of this conversation into a conundrum, instead of an enigma (and not the German-built enciphering machine).
If only and only if (for anyone that has taken a class in logic)capitalism is the cause, then why do we not play more F2P or P2P games developed in other countries, that do not use free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership (IPs) of means of productions. So, it makes capitalism an unrealistic choice for an answer, only because F2P and P2P games make profit based on capitalism and free market.
Hard to believe seriously... absolutely no originality
Discuss
I have to agree that the title of the thread could have fostered better discussion about an implausible likelihood that MMOs would could be smitten at the very same economic system that make it possible for everyone in the world to play F2P and P2P games. What I find even more at odds is the possible answer to why MMOs would die is somehow link to capitalism, which puts the whole title of this conversation into a conundrum, instead of an enigma (and not the German-built enciphering machine).
If only and only if (for anyone that has taken a class in logic)capitalism is the cause, then why do we not play more F2P or P2P games developed in other countries, that do not use free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership (IPs) of means of productions. So, it makes capitalism an unrealistic choice for an answer, only because F2P and P2P games make profit based on capitalism and free market.
in my opinion the only concern for capitolism is that some developers would settle for quick and easy rather than depth.
For instance, why no voiceovers? Aoc had them for like 1/8 of the game...then silence. If I pay 15 a month thats 180 a year plus the initial 40-60 so that could be 240.00 for the first year. I cant get voice overs?
How about endless repetition of the same quests over and over? 240.00 I cant get variety?
Its funny that you brought up other countries, but one way or another someone is in it to make money, right?
So should we blame capitolism or the effect GREED
I have to believe that most of these designers care just as much about mmorpg's as me.
I have to believe that, just like me not being able to create a game, that its not easy for them.
I have to believe that in all these designers hearts, they want what we want, but somewhere between that and the demands from the publishers we get WOW clones and f2p uninovative, hope we spend more in the CS than we would on the subscription, sorry for the instance, type games.
I love the concept..Open worlds, Exploration, Adventure, Treasure, Epic battles, socializing. It just has to reward me worthy of my investment
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
I played wow in 2003 ... closed beta... that was the last time.
Not everyone likes to play orcs and elves in a colorfull casual themepark world.
Wow killed originality if that's what you mean.
That's why a discussion on these board is useless.
How many of these posters know that WOW has an RvR zone now (Lake Wintergrasp). It is an open world zone which awards the holders" of that zone for ALL highest level dungeons and opens up to vendors and a great Raid in the last 3 Tiers.
It is "only" being fought by mx cap of 240 people fighting over a real animated SIege system( fallen walls, riding artillery, manned canons, mounted combat) and between those Sieges it is a complete open PvP zone for skrimishers and rare mats that ... drop from killed players and mobs. I guess that wasn't "IN" it in closed Beta. As were .... 3.286 other things.
--
How many know "it" can be played with experience turned OFF these days (at free will). Giving acccess to a complete different - NON level game. Weird : you should try it.
--
How many know it has dual talented possibilites (with auto switching between talents and gear in 3 seconds out of combat and PvP).
--
How many know the reforging and customisation of that Gear? (through gem stones, enchanting, reforging) ?
Oh BTW this remark applies to ALL existing MMo's !!!! People talk and talk and talk without ANY serious knowledge.
They talk about talk they read on forums: and they even think they "know" by reading it all on a forum ...
So before commenting and making statements as "dying": you don't even KNOW your own games ....inside out.
Why ? 99.9% of the posters actually KNOW 1 or 2 games thoroughly so you get BS all over the place.
As was this thread.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Comments
Um... how do you define game?
If I showed you World of Warcraft in 1975 would they call it a game? Yes, you kill 15 bunnies to raise your level. They would ask, "so, how do I win?"
-------------------------
Can't believe you threw capitalism in there. Wouldn't even be a gaming industry without capitalism.
Players in general don't respond to originality, they respond to popularity. Hype a game up enough and everyone loves it. Hate on a game and everyone is hating on it to fit in. Most gamers are predictable and the industry is as predictable as the players. The industry won't change until we do.
The only indie games that will do well are the ones following the clone format. It's strange to consider that from a business stand point perhaps the cloners are the smart ones. We act like clones, so the industry follows the format we respond to.
I would like to say one day "I to fought in the Clone Wars." It seems like everyone is working for the Empire now adays...
I have the right to like what I want!
As a soloer, I picked "originality". I like to play MMO's for the economic aspect, like crafting and playing the AH. So, to me, a game that forced me to group to get anywhere would not see a sub from me.
Lack of originality is what i voted.
To give you an understanding - let's take Fantasy MMO's.
WoW - Perfect World - Allods - Cabal - Silkroad
I can list more but we'll leave it there for now. Each one of those games involve exactly the same things. Literally everything is the same, only thing thats different is the graphics style is different, different mob/avatar designs and different maps. They all still consist of just the main aspect of the game, which is grind your way up levels by killing endless amounts of mobs that aren't really difficult to kill. After you've reached cap keep yourself in denial that there is still a reason to play the game.
Ideas they could use to vary the gameplay between these different mmo's: Well i'm not dev but i'd give random on-the-spot suggestions of maybe not making the game not too level orientated. i.e Sure there's still level's but the game isnt based completely around that, maybe it could be more based around controlling ingame land for your guild.
I'll give you an example with EVE online. That's not so much level based. When it comes to pvp a 3 month year old player could kil a 3 year old player - but it all depends on how he fits his ship. That's where actual skill comes in (not just mindless go in to pvp arena and bash 3 keys). With EVE pvp theres probably about millions of combinations you can fit a ship, so the fight actually begins even before you lay the first blow. I mean thats just one example of EVE i've given that shows some sort of variance compared to other mmo's.
To be honest though, regardless of what i've discussed so far. I don't think mmo genres are dying. Online gaming is just growing so fast these days. But my point is still valid.
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I think the developers need to drop the whole WOW clone game . There are some that say WOW was a great game but i think this was true mabyee the year it came out but not now . Now anyone can pick up a wow account for almost nothing the gold spammers have sucked most of the enjoyment out of the game .
Its graphics are outdated and there are games more fun to play and prettier then WOW. Maybee if they stoped trying to copy a game that is as old as the hat and started putting new idea's on the table instead of cloning a old style game there might be more success.
From WOW i will not deny alot of good idea's were grasped and Blizzard Entertainment is one of the best Marketer's on the plannet . WOW is popular for 2 reasons.
1. It Came in the first wave of mmo's in the new age
2.Its Marketing still to this day is Brilliant.
My Opinon is there are far more interesting game out there then WOW now this isnt to say WOW didnt have its place it opened the door to most MMO's out there today with a few exceptions. I think its time to move on and forward and stop looking back at a game that had its time and look to the future.
So i think it is time to look at things fresh and stop Referencing every mmo and compairing it to World of Warcraft. There are other games out there now and there are quite a few games better then the aging ones. Sure alot of the idea's stemed from games like WOW but i am sure the developers stole idea's for wow off other games aswell.
If more Developers would take the example of EVE Online ot even games like Fallen Earth and Wonderking. Or on the extreme Darkfall and think outside the box moving away from the WOW stero type. I think Games would be far more Enjoyable to play .Many of us forget the most important thing about Gamming .
Games are played to have FUN.
For the developer that brings the single player encaptavating world and encompasses that into a Multiplayer Game the $ will come in Droves.
** All spelling mistakes and grammar is for the enjoyment of readers.**
Current games;
Star treck online
Rift
Eve online
Firefall
Hey OP: Why not a selection for "All Of The Above"?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Man I would love a video game based on Paranoia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(game)
Edit: Offtopic I know but I just don't get threads like this. Isn't the mmo genre the most populous right now than it has ever been?
The real thing that is killing MMOs these days is too much theme park and not enough sand box. There has not been a high quality sandbox game made in nearly a decade. The last quality sandbox MMO was SWG released back in 2003 and they changed that game into a theme park with the infamous NGE. Now every game is the same with way too much hand holding. The early MMOs promised a virtual world to explore and they delivered. Then it was like some suit said no more sandboxes. Everyone must play theme parks. It is not WoW that is being endlessly copied it theme parks.
Yes I would Agree with this statement we were promised huge worlds to explore but we are given worlds that constantly put restraints on us and set how we are to play like a themepark .
What happend to the MMO's that offered richness and divercity. There are only a few that i can see out there now days that even come close.
Current games;
Star treck online
Rift
Eve online
Firefall
Yeah, I have to agree with that too, even though I usually argue against any 'genre is dying' threads. Darkfall or Vanguard might be my favorite MMO right now because of this fact, if only I could get them to run on my computer without crashing every couple minutes (more Nvidia driver issues that I don't want to spend half my subscription time troubleshooting).
I'd be happier If there were more sandbox competitors, but I'm fine with theme park style mmos too. It's just a different style, and would be good if the market just split these MMOs in to two different sub-genres kinda like RTS and TBS.
Just stick with calling them all F2P SBMMO, F2P TPMMO, P2P TPMMO, and P2P SBMMO. WTB more of the latter! And keep MMOFPS as MP-FPS, & MMORTS as MP-RTS, FFS lol!
I disagree.
My perception is that the above does not apply to the number one MMO being played (and a lot of others too).
It is no longer essentially a solo game to level (choice of level through PvP, group dungeons, quests or mob kills).
It can be a hell of a challenge according to what you set out as your own limit (PvP or PVE hardcore challenge and titles).
The guild play is the only real long term basic social interaction in any MMo.
So what we see here is a poster who says he is ... anti social ("I will never be a pve raider", is clearly NOT functioning in a guild and is seeking the traditional gameplay value of a single player game ... and is complaining about it ... ?!?!?).
He's no MMO player at all.
So he has the worst post of the whole thread as he ignores core grouping mechanics.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Oh Dear God....
Ok Let's take on the challenge here and still react from a Blizzard standpoint and not even talk about "polish and quality" and just take you on "mechanics" you talk about....
How many games you cited can put OFF experience gains at will? Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited can go to maximum level by doing PvP only ? Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited have an out of the game economy and Auction House on another platform. Surely a new way to play it.
How many games you cited have a complete - out of the game - e-sport status attached to it? Surely a ladder based sports competition is endless (around 3 billion people would agree).
When I read such disdain posts about WOW (citing it with about the lowest free to play MMo trash you can get) always makes me wonder who are these posters anyway.
No wonder you can't find "anything" decent, except the usual boring forum reference
You can't distinguish between trash and simple gaming options.
.
This is a games industry: it is about making high standard GAME products and you compare the industry leader with cheaply produced surrogates.
You lost the road to game design completely: this is all about gameplay, not about "a setting" nor "fantasy", nor "Lore".
Gameplay first. That's all that counts. If you don't even see the basic difference in mechanics, you can't analyse anything.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Tbh, i would put you in the denial department of gamers: those who are playing a game that they spent alot of time on, but they don't want to stop as subconciously they will realise that all that time spent was wasted. I'm speaking from experience here.
First thing though, See all those points you mention - they are just small aspects to the game. It's not like they break or make the actual gameplay of the game. "Oh wow has this one added feature where you can level by pvp which = best game in world
". I mean if anything you're the one that's being ignorant - not meaning it as an insult... But most wow players are. They're so into the game that they will deny anything that goes against it and completely block it off.
I have played WoW for a decent period of time (4 months or so), but i wouldnt say i got addicted to it as some people do. But to explain to you what i meant by "players in denial", which i mentioned earlier: i did play a game called Last Chaos, which i used to play something like 7 hours a day, going late into most nights. They had an item shop too, which in the space of 8 months of intense play i spent about $1,3k on. That's how into the game i was. Used to sleep like 4 am at night after 8 (sometimes 10) hour plays. Near the end of the 8 Months, mentally i could feel myself fighting (a little down to the fact that i had maxed cap) against myself. I would think,
"maybe i should stop, its not like its that enjoyable now. Sure i made great friends, but i'm not going to continue playing this game just on that basis - but if the whole reason why i'm staying here is friends, it doesnt say much about the game..." After about a week of hesitation i quit (i actually came back 2 weeks later, but then left again after a week for good)... Near the end of the last few months of me playing Last Chaos, i realised i was just keeping myself in denial to continue playing the game i just couldnt admit it. That's exactly what i think most of these 'addicted' wow players are feeling.
If you want to talk about features though,
WoW doesnt enable players to control ingame Land which you can use to earn ingame money with. In PW there are huge pvp tournaments held with land as prize.
WoW doesnt have an indepth item upgrading system, where there are multiple tiers and options you can choose from depending on the purpose of the item like LC.
Like i said before, these are just small features, they dont make or break the game. Also like i said before, im not going to go naming every mmo so i just took a selection. But point 3 in your list of "How's", Entropia Universe has, also EvE. Also to highlight something in point 2 "How many games you cited can go to maximum level by doing PvP only ?"
This is the problem with most mmo's. The whole gameplay is concentrated around levels "oh you need to be the highest level possible, go out and grind"... This is one of the reasons why most mmo's are the same. Sure its an mmorpg and it has to have level (i'm not saying it shouldnt have levels), but not base the whole game on just leveling. EvE for example, leveling skills comes secondary to actually doing stuff for the fun of it, in some cases doing stuff so you can actually own parts of space.
I.E taking down POS's (Player owned sort of buildings - if you dont know), Exploring wormholes (in which case there's a big chance of you actually getting lost, and the only way to find your way back to main space is kill yourself if you dont have the right tools). I mean with EvE it puts all the exciting stuff first and skilling up levels is a discreet aspect to the game.
Once again i just took EVE as an example for this particular case.
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I agree that that should have been a choice so that YOU could click it. But tell me.....what game TRIES to appeal to groupers and caters to the "hardcore crowd?" If you say WoW...I'm going to laugh. Are you just talking simply about having RAIDING in the game? If the OPTION (and indeed that's all it is) to GROUP (or raid or whatever) is so awful to you.....why don't you just play single player games? I mean....soloing is pretty much an option in all MMOs any more. So why should there not also be the option to group?? O.o
I don't know...your statement confuses me.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Options 1, 4 and 8 mainly.
i'd add aging genre/playerbase. i started playing MMORPGs with UO in '97. i do not have a decade-long attention span and have no interest in repeating the same generic leveling and grinding mechanics i participated in EQ, AO, AOC, COH, etc.
i have moved on to EVE and will not look back. when i need an RPG fix i fire up the xbox 360 and play dragon age, mass effect, fable, etc.
None of the above. Most MMOs die because they are *bad games*--bug ridden with poorly thought out gameplay. This is most often because they were rushed out the door before they were finished.
somehow 20 people out of 200 think thats the reason. They somehow understood that its an inflated sinonym of greed.
Yes because using the old guild mechanic like most games out there is better. He points out that since you can solo the whole game the challenge is gone because the social aspect of mmo's should be the key to gaining power you cannot obtain alone.
Clearly i fully agree with him and i have a huge pve background and i love pve it's a core element like pvp to me for a game to feel complete. I think people the R in MMORPG, and clearly people need to read the definition of role again.
A socially expected behavior pattern usually determined by an individual's status in a particular society, thats what a role is to me.
MMO market grows rapidly each year and yet it is dying...shocking news...
The dying thing is You, not the MMO, those are evolving.
211 people are saying otherwise obviously. It might be because they can read and understand more than a thread title sentence.
I have to agree that the title of the thread could have fostered better discussion about an implausible likelihood that MMOs would could be smitten at the very same economic system that make it possible for everyone in the world to play F2P and P2P games. What I find even more at odds is the possible answer to why MMOs would die is somehow link to capitalism, which puts the whole title of this conversation into a conundrum, instead of an enigma (and not the German-built enciphering machine).
If only and only if (for anyone that has taken a class in logic)capitalism is the cause, then why do we not play more F2P or P2P games developed in other countries, that do not use free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership (IPs) of means of productions. So, it makes capitalism an unrealistic choice for an answer, only because F2P and P2P games make profit based on capitalism and free market.
in my opinion the only concern for capitolism is that some developers would settle for quick and easy rather than depth.
For instance, why no voiceovers? Aoc had them for like 1/8 of the game...then silence. If I pay 15 a month thats 180 a year plus the initial 40-60 so that could be 240.00 for the first year. I cant get voice overs?
How about endless repetition of the same quests over and over? 240.00 I cant get variety?
Its funny that you brought up other countries, but one way or another someone is in it to make money, right?
So should we blame capitolism or the effect GREED
I have to believe that most of these designers care just as much about mmorpg's as me.
I have to believe that, just like me not being able to create a game, that its not easy for them.
I have to believe that in all these designers hearts, they want what we want, but somewhere between that and the demands from the publishers we get WOW clones and f2p uninovative, hope we spend more in the CS than we would on the subscription, sorry for the instance, type games.
I love the concept..Open worlds, Exploration, Adventure, Treasure, Epic battles, socializing. It just has to reward me worthy of my investment
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
That's why a discussion on these board is useless.
How many of these posters know that WOW has an RvR zone now (Lake Wintergrasp). It is an open world zone which awards the holders" of that zone for ALL highest level dungeons and opens up to vendors and a great Raid in the last 3 Tiers.
It is "only" being fought by mx cap of 240 people fighting over a real animated SIege system( fallen walls, riding artillery, manned canons, mounted combat) and between those Sieges it is a complete open PvP zone for skrimishers and rare mats that ... drop from killed players and mobs. I guess that wasn't "IN" it in closed Beta. As were .... 3.286 other things.
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How many know "it" can be played with experience turned OFF these days (at free will). Giving acccess to a complete different - NON level game. Weird : you should try it.
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How many know it has dual talented possibilites (with auto switching between talents and gear in 3 seconds out of combat and PvP).
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How many know the reforging and customisation of that Gear? (through gem stones, enchanting, reforging) ?
Oh BTW this remark applies to ALL existing MMo's !!!! People talk and talk and talk without ANY serious knowledge.
They talk about talk they read on forums: and they even think they "know" by reading it all on a forum ...
So before commenting and making statements as "dying": you don't even KNOW your own games ....inside out.
Why ? 99.9% of the posters actually KNOW 1 or 2 games thoroughly so you get BS all over the place.
As was this thread.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk