Yea. A ton of the same stuff to do repeatitively over and over again but with a different toon. Should really appeal to the linear and rinse/repeat crowd.
Yeah i wanted to adress the typical "but u can lvl 50 different classes" would u play God of war 50 times in a row?
Again... You don't understand the way FFXI's job system was set up and are assuming it to be like the typical MMO.
That's not how it works in FFXI and, it seems, won't be the case in FFXIV either.
You want to change to a different job (class) in FFXI, you switch to that job and level it. You never need more than one character to play different jobs. If you don't have it yet, you do the quest to unlock it.
Because of that, all achievements are attached to the character - not the job (class). Once you complete a quest line, you never have to do it again... Unless you start a new character which, again, you don't have to do.
So, yeah... you and Krux are both agreeing on something neither of you seem to actually understand.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
by your definition, name 1 good PVP MMO, one where gear and level do not matter, just teamplay, cooperation, tactics, and player skill are the only deciding factors in the outcome.
Gear and level matter, but only to a certain extent - about 10-30%, not 50-80%.
It is possible to beat anyone with skill having pretty standard items in Age of Conan. I did take down lvl 80s with 55lvl character many times, as well as seeing other people do it all the time. Tactics matter in minigames vs items.
Tactics and only tactics, be it 1vs1 or group vs group work in EVE online.
i creamed my pants in excitement and then i come on here reading that 14 will be another carebare, we-are-all-good-guys game. u realize from million accounts to just a few thousand... 70% if not more of the population quit FF cuz it had no pvp. so i know im not in the wrong here.
Way to close a post...
Knock the game for being precisely what it's supposed to be... along with that old, tired and canned insult "carebear" to "make yourself seem more hardcore by using it".... 'cause nothing says "I'm right!" more than calling anything without PvP "carebear".
Then you end it with a completely factually incorrect statement...
FFXI settled off at ~500k players and didn't dip below that 'til a few months back.
Going with your figure of 1 million, 500,000 is half of that, not 30%.
Even so, 30% would still be around 300,000 which isn't "a few thousand". It is, in fact, still more than many newer "AAA" MMOs manage to hold on to even months after their launch, never mind 7+ years after.
As for them all leaving because of no PvP... So you've spoken to all those people and verified they all left because of no PvP...
Question... You weren't expecting anyone to take you seriously with the sheer volume of BS you spewed out in your post, did you?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yes leave it for the hardcore ffxi people, who get the huge gratifictation of going on a journey for 5 hours for 1 quest. Yes leave it to the hardcore ffxi who get that sense of accomplishment for camping a NM for hours on end. Yes leave it the hardcore ffxi people to wait in Jeanuo for a party for somthing slowly realizing that the most populated realm only has a max of 2000 people on a good day. Guess people got bored of all the b/s.
And from that video I want to quote this part most:
---
""I am an adventurer of Vana'Diel", She said.
Of course. I am one too, I thought.
However, her idea of an "adventurer" and mine were very different.
[Valkurm was fun. We didn't know our left from our right, thinking together we found the
way.]
[But then we went to Jeuno, doing the same thing everyday. We didn't have any spare
time.]
[Because I got teleports, I thought we could all travel the world. But everyone was
caught up with leveling...]
[I wanted to see more of the world. There has to be places we have yet to discover. I
thought it would be good if we could share that together]
[I still remember when we saw that rainbow in La Theine, I wanted to expierence that
again, with everyone...]
When I heard this I was shocked.
I was touched when we first got to Jeuno.
But after that, did finding a new place matter to me?
When I first came to a place, I just thought of it as a new hunting ground.
The stone monuments, which detail the history of each area, was just a means to finish
the quest for the Crawler's Nest map.
When did I forget what being an adventurer meant?"
---
Exploiring the world together, seeing it as an adventure.
A lot of players of today don't want an mmoRPG, they just want a MMOG, with quick combat, quick rewards. Story they don't read, the just want the reward.
Well for me the reward is the fun I have with the people while doing it, and enjoying the story SE has written for us.
This is something not everyone will like, and there is nothing wrong with that fact, but please, let people who do enjoy it have their fun and look for a game were you can have the things you like. Then everyone is happy.
Why must all the MMORPG's have the same concept?
Man, that video....
Got me all misty-eyed over here... It reminds me of what I loved about FFXI, and also why I left it. I have yet to find that sense of adventure in any other game. Kinda wish I had had an in-game friend like that WHM...
Here's to hoping FFXIV can capture some of that magic.
Cheers to those that "get it". This game doesn't need PvP
to the person that posted that ffxi vid. /end thread
So let's see what that video conveys...
1. Pro PvP types (like Haseo) feel it's ridiculous to enjoy the environments and other content in a MMO because it's all just "textures on polygons" and "don't mean anything". Yet... when it's about fighting and defeating other players through PvP, those same "textures on polygons" are suddenly more meaningful.... Sounds like a double-standard to me.
2. He acknowledges that the only thing that's real in the game are the players... and then proceeds to act on that by lashing into and insulting the girl... asking her if she's an idiot, among other things, and then telling her to leave. Only thing missing was him calling her a "carebear" and telling her to "go back to WoW" and he'd have been a perfect analog of any number of people on these forums.
The video's a wonderful example of how not to act toward other players. It's a wonderful example of how many of the more vocal pro-PvP'ers (certainly not all) will immediately resort to flaming others who disagree when PvP's in question. I certainly wouldn't call the video a convincing argument in favor of PvP. I doubt it's going to convince anyone who doesn't already think so that FFXIV would be better with world PvP.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thats a real shame, because even for all the players that dont like pvp. What exactly do you do once u hit max lvl?
I mean, there is no point in getting legendary gear from epic bosses cuz ur not competing with anyone right?... right???
But just to be fair, some will say "but i like raiding and collecting itemz".
....
so lets say you do get all the gears, u can 1 shot monsters now,
GOOD JOB ...
you know what happens to my ps3 games after i hit max lvl or beat it?... i trade it in.
im afraid with all the games coming out FFXIV will fail.
but if one doesn't care for pvp then they dont' care about competing against another in combat. It's a moot point.
More often than not, people who aren['t into pvp concentrate on other aspects of the game. Whether it's raiding, role playing, crafting, socializing, making alts, maybe a bit of controlled pvp here and there, etc.
You are trying to make an argument for something that is not recognized as worthwhile for a segment of the mmo population.
Just as fans of more hardcore pvp games bristle at anyone asking for pve servers or safe zones I think there is an equal reaction from people who want to experience a world for the story and environments while doing so in a social manner.
I don't understand why people on both sides of the equation can't understand that people are different.
Maybe this is why humanity never learns from its mistakes.
There's nothing wrong with having different tastes, the problem being, there are already games that have amazing stories, and controlled environments, they're called single player games. Why you would want a massively online world, yet interact with other players by doing nothing other than talking to them, and running dungeon with them is a real waste. I will probably enjoy FF14 for a few weeks, but I have to force myself to think of it as a single player game, with cooperative online modes.
To sum up your post:
"There's nothing wrong with having different tastes, unless they're different than mine".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
What good is MMORPG, which is multi-player game without PVP? You can do all your PVE stuff in offline game.
Anyway - if no-PVP is confirmed, according to developers statement, then i guess FF is not on my watch list
It's not on a lot of people's watch lists for that reason.
It's not on a lot of people's watch lists for other reasons.
Likewise...
It is on a lot of people's watch lists because of no PvP.
It is on a lot of people's watch lists because of other reasons...
And in both cases... that's perfectly fine.
Not every PvE MMO "needs" a strong PvP element (see FFXI). Not every PvP MMO "needs" a strong PvE element (see Lineage 2).
What some people need to realize is that their preferred playstyle isn't always going to be addressed in every game they check out... and that doesn't mean there's "something wrong with the game or the people who play it"... it simply means it's not something they'd enjoy. Luckily ther are plenty other options out there that are better suited to them. That's the wonderful part of variety.
What gets me is how, after all this time, there are still people who are bewildered to learn FFXIV won't focus a lot on PvP.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'm not sure I understand why people who are happy with a pvp-free FFXIV have a discussion with people who announce their pure boredom with a pvp-free game like FFXIV. I won't miss those guys
I'm looking forward to FF 14. Finally no more threads in forums like "But class B has skill b and it's OP and it kills us all way too fast, we're getting NUUUUKED, developers HAVE TO fix this RIGHT NOW with the next patch or I'LL QUIT" followed by threads "Developers don't caaaaaaaare what we want, *wail*, class B is still OP and what is this, you can't do this to your customers, this is IMBAAAAA, and I swear, if they don't fix this SOON I'll say goodbye to this sh***fu**** game, this is a FAAAAIIIILLLLL" and blablabla
Yeah, I can see the pvp spirit there
I enjoy pvp games or rather I enjoy fighting with players in a game online, but too many times the pvp is just thrown in there with no real concept or balance, too many times it ends up as a ganking or one zerg against 10 people who just logged in wondering if "there is any action?" getting stomped just as they leave their camp lol. That's not pvp.
So I'm having no problems at all if square leaves pvp out of Final Fantasy. They're sparing themselves the drama with players who just want the game mechanics either like WoW or DAoC "in this game it was like that, and in this other game players could do this, and back in <insert random pvp game here> you lost <insert random attribute here> when killed by another player, they really should bring <insert random pvp feature here>, it worked out just fine in <insert random pvp game here>, yes it would make everything SO MUCH better."
I'm not sure I understand why people who are happy with a pvp-free FFXIV have a discussion with people who announce their pure boredom with a pvp-free game like FFXIV. I won't miss those guys
I'm looking forward to FF 14. Finally no more threads in forums like "But class B has skill b and it's OP and it kills us all way too fast, we're getting NUUUUKED, developers HAVE TO fix this RIGHT NOW with the next patch or I'LL QUIT" followed by threads "Developers don't caaaaaaaare what we want, *wail*, class B is still OP and what is this, you can't do this to your customers, this is IMBAAAAA, and I swear, if they don't fix this SOON I'll say goodbye to this sh***fu**** game, this is a FAAAAIIIILLLLL" and blablabla
Yeah, I can see the pvp spirit there
I enjoy pvp games or rather I enjoy fighting with players in a game online, but too many times the pvp is just thrown in there with no real concept or balance, too many times it ends up as a ganking or one zerg against 10 people who just logged in wondering if "there is any action?" getting stomped just as they leave their camp lol. That's not pvp.
So I'm having no problems at all if square leaves pvp out of Final Fantasy. They're sparing themselves the drama with players who just want the game mechanics either like WoW or DAoC "in this game it was like that, and in this other game players could do this, and back in you lost when killed by another player, they really should bring , it worked out just fine in , yes it would make everything SO MUCH better."
Care Bear 1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths.
I'd rather be a carebear than deal with the shitty PvP systems in MMO's tbh.
Fighting games, FPS's and RTS's are much better for that purpose. Of course both MMO's and these games can not be played together, but somehow I've managed!
I'm not looking for PvP in MMO simply because other games at least try to make it balanced on the player. The original Guild Wars was the only tolerable PvP experience for me (was damn fun indeed), the rest is just filled with shitty "PvP".
So you either play shitty PvP or are a carebear. Fine with me.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths.
rofl...
Thus your originally calling me a carebear does not apply afterall, since I'm of the "players who merely prefer PVE to PVP" cause I really don't care about the functions of PvP.
I am definitely one whom is "heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests" and a very good storyline in which to delve into. I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
I am definitely one whom is "heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests" and a very good storyline in which to delve into. I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
XI is not "AI done right", lol.
XIV is showing promise however.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I am definitely one whom is "heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests" and a very good storyline in which to delve into. I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
XI is not "AI done right", lol.
XIV is showing promise however.
Maybe not to you, but I find it far better than in any MMO I've played...and really, how can ya tell the AI is any better in XIV...you can't...it looks similar to XI already; which is just fine!
Maybe not to you, but I find it far better than in any MMO I've played...and really, how can ya tell the AI is any better in XIV...you can't...it looks similar to XI already; which is just fine!
There's lot of things I find better than other MMO's like the aggro system, but there's nothing good about the normal mob AI and even bosses have maybe one or two scripted events to them at best that they rotate... Even if other MMO's do worse than that, it's still too simple for a PvE game.
I've seen how mobs react in XIV and there's some really cool yet simple concepts that can really spice things up. I hope they'll be used more. Tanaka was speculating on some of the ideas he has planned for the encounters so I expect them to get only better in the long run.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
If AI would be "done right" you wouldn't worry about PVP in the first place. Ever played FPS with good bots? When AI in MMOs will reach the level of some of those i'll agree 100%, but seeing what is there i cannot help but laugh at such argument.
The main reason people avoid PVP is reduced challenge/danger/risk. If AI would be as good as other players...but until it is not - many people don't like to loose and just enjoy their controllable scripted envirouments where they will always have and advantage over poor stupid NPCs
Why people afraid to fight in games where you loose virtually nothing is beyond me...
I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
If AI would be "done right" you wouldn't worry about PVP in the first place. Ever played FPS with good bots? When AI in MMOs will reach the level of some of those i'll agree 100%, but seeing what is there i cannot help but laugh at such argument.
The main reason people avoid PVP is reduced challenge/danger/risk. If AI would be as good as other players...but until it is not - many people don't like to loose and just enjoy their controllable scripted envirouments where they will always have and advantage over poor stupid NPCs
So, you have it all figured out why people avoid PvP? No need for those individuals to think or decide for themself... You, AlexanderTD, have done the thinking for them. You know the answer, whereas they merely *think* they do.
It's not that they may actually like PvP in an appropriate setting, but don't feel it's suitable or even necessary in some MMOs. Nope, they're "just afraid of it".
It's not that they prefer to avoid the kind of ass-hattery that invariably results with PvP (as in world PvP) where some who call themselves "PvPers" are only interested in ganking and griefing those far weaker than themselves, harassing and disrupting them any way they can. Nope... they're "just afraid of it".
It's not that some people - believe it or not - simply don't find that playstyle at all appealing - just as some don't find PvE appealing. Nope... they're "just afraid of it".
It's not that some people prefer to stay away from PvP MMOs because they rather not deal with the constant "I'm a badass" e-peen waving many self-described "hardcore PvPers" love to engage in, in-game and on forums. Nope, they're "just afraid of it".
It's not that they'd rather not play in an environment where people are constantly crying for "nerfs" and complaining that "class-x is OP!" everytime they lose a fight because it never occurs to them that maybe the other player was simply better... Nope... they're just "afraid of it".
It's not for any of the other myriad reasons - directly and indirectly related to PvP gameplay - that people may prefer to avoid a PvP environment... Nope... they're "just afraid of it".
Well.. what can I say, Alexander? I don't know where this forum would be if it weren't for people like you to come along and school us all on why we *really* don't want PvP in FFXIV (given that this is the FFXIV forum and all). I mean, here I thought I really enjoyed PvP, in a MMO focused around it (Lineage 2, Eve, etc), but prefer to keep a more story-centric PvE experience free of it... But, nope... According to you, I'm simply "afraid of it".
Thank you *so* much for bringing such clarity and "Truth" to the forums. You're a light in the darkness, you truly are.
... and in case it wasn't detected by anyone... /sarcasm off
Why people afraid to fight in games where you loose virtually nothing is beyond me...
Why people like yourself insist on dishonestly characterizing it as "people being afraid of it", when people discuss their reasons, all the time, all over these forums, is beyond me.
You may not agree with their reasons. However, ignoring them, and then inserting your own self-serving reasons (e.g. "they're afraid of it") and assuming it to be "fact" is rather arrogant.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
If AI would be "done right" you wouldn't worry about PVP in the first place. Ever played FPS with good bots? When AI in MMOs will reach the level of some of those i'll agree 100%, but seeing what is there i cannot help but laugh at such argument.
The main reason people avoid PVP is reduced challenge/danger/risk. If AI would be as good as other players...but until it is not - many people don't like to loose and just enjoy their controllable scripted envirouments where they will always have and advantage over poor stupid NPCs
Why people afraid to fight in games where you loose virtually nothing is beyond me...
That its beyond you is.. kind of understandable given your reasoning, but not all games are about PVP, play any of the FF games and you will see why PVP isnt in there, its not what the games are about nor is it even needed, there are plenty of games around that have PVP after all. and, if you hadnt noticed, their not that popular.. the most 'desired' form of gameplay in MMO's apparently is PVE, the FF series of games just happen to 'scratch that itch' so if its not your 'thing' then.. check out games like APB. they have PVP to the max.. but as for adding PVP.. if it had PVP in it.. then it wouldnt be a FF game.
I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
If AI would be "done right" you wouldn't worry about PVP in the first place. Ever played FPS with good bots? When AI in MMOs will reach the level of some of those i'll agree 100%, but seeing what is there i cannot help but laugh at such argument.
The main reason people avoid PVP is reduced challenge/danger/risk. If AI would be as good as other players...but until it is not - many people don't like to loose and just enjoy their controllable scripted envirouments where they will always have and advantage over poor stupid NPCs
Why people afraid to fight in games where you loose virtually nothing is beyond me...
It's not people are afraid to fight in games. It's what comes AFTER the fight. Most people can't be a gracious "loser". They cry and whin after getting beaten by another player then start complaining about the other person(class) is over powered and the developers should do something about it and spamming the chat window about that. Also with pvp, most people do get verbally abusive. So yes, it's true that you don't really lose anything but why put up with the verbal abuse in the chat window? Most people also camp out some where and try to kill low level players then here we go, first we have the un-gracious losers complaining in the chat and we also have the lowe level players spaming the chat window, crying and cursing because someone just one shot them. Just more headache when you have pvp in the game...
So, you have it all figured out why people avoid PvP? No need for those individuals to think or decide for themself... You, AlexanderTD, have done the thinking for them. You know the answer, whereas they merely *think* they do. It's not that they may actually like PvP in an appropriate setting, but don't feel it's suitable or even necessary in some MMOs. Nope, they're "just afraid of it".
Individuals may think whatever they want. I say what i think and call things what they are - based on revelations of people who don't like PVP i've heard for years, seeing those becoming PVPers and changing their opinions and so on. So in my eyes - it's true for majority. All what said is my IMHO.
It's not that they prefer to avoid the kind of ass-hattery that invariably results with PvP (as in world PvP) where some who call themselves "PvPers" are only interested in ganking and griefing those far weaker than themselves, harassing and disrupting them any way they can. Nope... they're "just afraid of it".
Not true. It's exatly how "carebears" view it simply because it's them who feel hatered when being ganked or PVPing themselves. Hatered is sign of immaturity. Experienced PVPer always having fun. Most if not all the trash talking in chats comes from noobs and it stops as soon as they get some skill and realize PVP is not about winning or loosing, it's about fighting itself, constant self-improvement, exploring new variations and strategies. NPCs don't really need that, not the ones we have today.
Well.. what can I say, Alexander? I don't know where this forum would be if it weren't for people like you to come along and school us all on why we *really* don't want PvP in FFXIV (given that this is the FFXIV forum and all). I mean, here I thought I really enjoyed PvP, in a MMO focused around it (Lineage 2, Eve, etc), but prefer to keep a more story-centric PvE experience free of it... But, nope... According to you, I'm simply "afraid of it".
Yep. Most people feel uncomfortable by loosing to other players. I remember some polls about it - most said it's the reason.
I made perfectly clear argument up there - what is the difference between player and Bot that play just as good? 2 factors : 1. Either loosing to player makes many people feel "uncomfortable" along with "too much" thrill and adrenaline of fighting the real man 2. Or it is desire to always have an advantage and feel like you're special while PVP takes away that feeling untill you earn it back with your own skill and not your fancy items.
i'm not against PVE, i just think MMOS are all about PVE+PVP. Without PVP there's no real competition, no space for improvement versus worthy opponnets and NPCs are simply not up to task yet. When we'll get some real AI in there that will be hanging our a*** to us - il might agree with you.
When we'll get some real PvP balance - then I might agree with you.
This and also alot of ppl like me for example get our competition shots from playing rts, fps or even a second mmo game (like starcraft, eve, lineage2, wow och mw2 for me.)
A mmo doesnt have to include "direct confrontation pvp" do stand alone and strong. And having pvp in a game is not all flowers and bees. There are drawbacks to including it. The time alone you would have to put devtime on to balance an open classsystem skills to work for both pvp and pve is huuge.
There you get another drawback with pvp also; skills can never be "op" if they are to work for pvp. I could go on but really, they have said no to pvp on release and im thankful for it and believe the rest of the game will be so much better in the pve area becouse of it.
P.S - Typing this shit on iphone with swedish spelling was not really working, had to edit atleast some shit on this post from my PC to make it atleast resemble a decent post, sry for the eyes i hurt before the edit and i know its still not perfect >_>
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
If you have PvP in a game, you have to constantly balance around it because the playerbase is able to find a cookie cutter build that is deemed "op" in the eyes of the community.
Do you want the devs to spend a vast majority of their time constantly balancing around classes instead of creating more content?
PvP also goes against what FF is and has always been. FF, in any form has been working as a team/group to overcome immeasurable odds and "save" the world, etc etc.
There are plenty of games on the market that offer PvP and PvE.... NONE have gotten BOTH right. At the expense of ruining both by trying to balance around the complications that arise, I'd rather a company focus on one, than the other.
The PvP model of having pvp servers, or pve servers, rp servers may work well in other games, but by no means does that mean that ALL MMO'S have to follow the model. Unlike most other MMO'S, FFXIV is cross platform for each server, and EVERYONE in the world play on the SAME servers.
This means you have different cultures, languages, and personalities all playing at once. I'd rather a game nurture the attitude of working together to get something done rather than an emphasis on killing/griefing someone half way around the world.
FFXIV is about working together, not against each other. 99% of other MMO'S offer that if that's what you like. Please stop comming into a game forums and trying to change what a game fundamentally is. It's been in development for 5 years and if there's no PvP at launch, then it was NEVER intended to have PvP. To include PvP in a meaningful way at this point in development is to fundamentally change FFXIV. Long story short, you will never see meaningful pvp in this game as in WoW/Aion/AoC etc. By meaningful, I mean somethign that is fundamentally part of the game, and not as an afterthought.
So......
Why not accept the game for what it is? Try it out, if you enjoy it, then by all means please stay. If it's not your cup of tea, move on. Like most things in life.
If you have PvP in a game, you have to constantly balance around it because the playerbase is able to find a cookie cutter build that is deemed "op" in the eyes of the community.
Do you want the devs to spend a vast majority of their time constantly balancing around classes instead of creating more content?
PvP also goes against what FF is and has always been. FF, in any form has been working as a team/group to overcome immeasurable odds and "save" the world, etc etc.
There are plenty of games on the market that offer PvP and PvE.... NONE have gotten BOTH right. At the expense of ruining both by trying to balance around the complications that arise, I'd rather a company focus on one, than the other.
The PvP model of having pvp servers, or pve servers, rp servers may work well in other games, but by no means does that mean that ALL MMO'S have to follow the model. Unlike most other MMO'S, FFXIV is cross platform for each server, and EVERYONE in the world play on the SAME servers.
This means you have different cultures, languages, and personalities all playing at once. I'd rather a game nurture the attitude of working together to get something done rather than an emphasis on killing/griefing someone half way around the world.
FFXIV is about working together, not against each other. 99% of other MMO'S offer that if that's what you like. Please stop comming into a game forums and trying to change what a game fundamentally is. It's been in development for 5 years and if there's no PvP at launch, then it was NEVER intended to have PvP. To include PvP in a meaningful way at this point in development is to fundamentally change FFXIV. Long story short, you will never see meaningful pvp in this game as in WoW/Aion/AoC etc. By meaningful, I mean somethign that is fundamentally part of the game, and not as an afterthought.
So......
Why not accept the game for what it is? Try it out, if you enjoy it, then by all means please stay. If it's not your cup of tea, move on. Like most things in life.
but but but but... if it has no pvp its not really a game! it cannot be fun without pvp.... no games ever survive without pvp its tru mon!
Amirite?
In other news:
Well said.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
i'm not against PVE, i just think MMOS are all about PVE+PVP. Without PVP there's no real competition, no space for improvement versus worthy opponnets and NPCs are simply not up to task yet. When we'll get some real AI in there that will be hanging our a*** to us - il might agree with you.
"Sense of improvement" through PvP isn't the only form of entertainment out there. Some prefer improvement through PvE content, some prefer it through PvP content.
1, Some games try to deliver on both ( very very few do so well, IMHO).
2. Some cater specifically to PvP.
3. Some cater specifically to PvE.
SE stuck strictly to #3 with FFXI and it did quite well for them. That's the model that worked for the type of experience they were making FFXI to be, and it worked very well. PvP had no purpose nor use in the world, and for them to add it simply because "some people would enjoy it and it might bring in more players" would have been pointless.
Likewise, they're sticking to specifically the PvE model with FFXIV because, again, that's the type of playstyle that will be best suited to the game they'r designing FFXIV to be.
As for players in PvP being unpredictable and "not boring like PvE mobs"? In my experience, that's often not true. In PvP MMOs, people will gravitate toward whatever is considered the "most efficient build", using the "most ideal gear", and the "most effective strategies". It's to the point that you know if someone's playing, say, a mage... You can assume with a high amount of accuracy, that they're spec'd out a certain way, are using certain gear and are likely to use a certain set of skills against you, based on your class or role. Thus, you know what to expect, what to counter with, if you can take them on as your given class or not, and how to approach the situation...
PvP against live players is not all that "unpredictable" as many make it out to be. It still mostly boils down to FoTM guides and cookie-cutter builds and strategies.
To demonstrate this, a rl friend of mine would regularly take out players on classes that - according to "common knowledge" - he shouldn't have been able to. Why? Because he didn't follow the templates, he didn't use the same builds, he didn't use the same tactics or skills... thus, he threw people off-guard just enough to get the upper hand on them. When he wasn't being flamed, or accused of hacking (many so-called "hardcore PvPers are also terrible sore losers), people would often ask him what his build was... so they could turn around and copy it. He wouldn't tell them because he knew that most players were so programmed to play a specific way in specific situations that he could get the upper-hand on them more times than not *because* he wasn't what they were expecting. He used the almost scripted predictability of cookie-cutter players to his advantage.
I was laughing one day on Ventrilo, as he was out looking for PvP. Every player he came across, he predicted almost move for move... "Oh... it's a nuker... Okay, first he's gonna do "x"... Now he's gonna do "y"... Yep... Now he's gonna either do "a" or "b"..." It was actually sad. The people - despite loving the "undpredictability" of PvP, made themself completely predictable.
I've seen this in every PvP MMO I've played....
Shadowbane - people provided and strongly suggested specific builds, including race, runes, etc. in order to "play your class right". People built their characters the same, they played them the same. They were predictable to anyone who spent any time fighting others of the same class.
Eve - In my time playing, I was regularly referenced to "standard" skill and ship build-outs to use for a given setup, that just happened to be the build-out/setup commonly recommended to everyone taking on a similar role. Thus, I would have been predictable to anyone who fought against others playing the same role as me, because they would have had a good idea, before even engaging me, what my setup was.
Lineage 2 - In my time playing that, I was regularly told that if I was playing "class x", then I needed to have a specific build, keep specific skills up to date, have specific weapons on me, specific tattoo setups, etc... So that I was setup just like every other person at my level playing that class... Thus, I would become predictable to anyone fighting me who had fought others of the same class and same setup.
Darkfall - In my time playing that game and reading its forums, people were recommended to take specific skills, in a specific order... Thus, they became mostly cookie-cutter clones of many other players they'd run into. No unpredictability beyond how good or poor the opponent was at using that build.
... and so on.
So, while players certainly have the potential to be unpredictable, it's wasted by most in favor of cookie-cutter templates and FoTM builds. I'm a fan of a good PvP MMO myself, but I do not buy into this conceit that somehow - by and large - PvP players are any less predictable or "scripted" than any PvE mob. Difference is, mobs are scripted by design; players are scripted by choice.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For the players that like pvp like me, yes we wouldnt bother spending time here posting and reading because by this point we all know FF14 will have no pvp.
I think the reason everyone has something to say is because most of us DID play 11. and as someone replied to my post saying it was aorund 50% of the population that died out after people began reaching max lvl. thats alot! and that 50% only wished this game was exactly the same with pvp.
why make the same game with better content and graphics? guild wars 2 wont be anything like guild wars 1 so why make them the same. u already have ur none pvp game its called FinalFantasy XI.
Comments
Again... You don't understand the way FFXI's job system was set up and are assuming it to be like the typical MMO.
That's not how it works in FFXI and, it seems, won't be the case in FFXIV either.
You want to change to a different job (class) in FFXI, you switch to that job and level it. You never need more than one character to play different jobs. If you don't have it yet, you do the quest to unlock it.
Because of that, all achievements are attached to the character - not the job (class). Once you complete a quest line, you never have to do it again... Unless you start a new character which, again, you don't have to do.
So, yeah... you and Krux are both agreeing on something neither of you seem to actually understand.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Gear and level matter, but only to a certain extent - about 10-30%, not 50-80%.
It is possible to beat anyone with skill having pretty standard items in Age of Conan. I did take down lvl 80s with 55lvl character many times, as well as seeing other people do it all the time. Tactics matter in minigames vs items.
Tactics and only tactics, be it 1vs1 or group vs group work in EVE online.
Way to close a post...
Knock the game for being precisely what it's supposed to be... along with that old, tired and canned insult "carebear" to "make yourself seem more hardcore by using it".... 'cause nothing says "I'm right!" more than calling anything without PvP "carebear".
Then you end it with a completely factually incorrect statement...
FFXI settled off at ~500k players and didn't dip below that 'til a few months back.
Going with your figure of 1 million, 500,000 is half of that, not 30%.
Even so, 30% would still be around 300,000 which isn't "a few thousand". It is, in fact, still more than many newer "AAA" MMOs manage to hold on to even months after their launch, never mind 7+ years after.
As for them all leaving because of no PvP... So you've spoken to all those people and verified they all left because of no PvP...
Question... You weren't expecting anyone to take you seriously with the sheer volume of BS you spewed out in your post, did you?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Man, that video....
Got me all misty-eyed over here... It reminds me of what I loved about FFXI, and also why I left it. I have yet to find that sense of adventure in any other game. Kinda wish I had had an in-game friend like that WHM...
Here's to hoping FFXIV can capture some of that magic.
So let's see what that video conveys...
1. Pro PvP types (like Haseo) feel it's ridiculous to enjoy the environments and other content in a MMO because it's all just "textures on polygons" and "don't mean anything". Yet... when it's about fighting and defeating other players through PvP, those same "textures on polygons" are suddenly more meaningful.... Sounds like a double-standard to me.
2. He acknowledges that the only thing that's real in the game are the players... and then proceeds to act on that by lashing into and insulting the girl... asking her if she's an idiot, among other things, and then telling her to leave. Only thing missing was him calling her a "carebear" and telling her to "go back to WoW" and he'd have been a perfect analog of any number of people on these forums.
The video's a wonderful example of how not to act toward other players. It's a wonderful example of how many of the more vocal pro-PvP'ers (certainly not all) will immediately resort to flaming others who disagree when PvP's in question. I certainly wouldn't call the video a convincing argument in favor of PvP. I doubt it's going to convince anyone who doesn't already think so that FFXIV would be better with world PvP.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To sum up your post:
"There's nothing wrong with having different tastes, unless they're different than mine".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's not on a lot of people's watch lists for that reason.
It's not on a lot of people's watch lists for other reasons.
Likewise...
It is on a lot of people's watch lists because of no PvP.
It is on a lot of people's watch lists because of other reasons...
And in both cases... that's perfectly fine.
Not every PvE MMO "needs" a strong PvP element (see FFXI). Not every PvP MMO "needs" a strong PvE element (see Lineage 2).
What some people need to realize is that their preferred playstyle isn't always going to be addressed in every game they check out... and that doesn't mean there's "something wrong with the game or the people who play it"... it simply means it's not something they'd enjoy. Luckily ther are plenty other options out there that are better suited to them. That's the wonderful part of variety.
What gets me is how, after all this time, there are still people who are bewildered to learn FFXIV won't focus a lot on PvP.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'm not sure I understand why people who are happy with a pvp-free FFXIV have a discussion with people who announce their pure boredom with a pvp-free game like FFXIV. I won't miss those guys
I'm looking forward to FF 14. Finally no more threads in forums like "But class B has skill b and it's OP and it kills us all way too fast, we're getting NUUUUKED, developers HAVE TO fix this RIGHT NOW with the next patch or I'LL QUIT" followed by threads "Developers don't caaaaaaaare what we want, *wail*, class B is still OP and what is this, you can't do this to your customers, this is IMBAAAAA, and I swear, if they don't fix this SOON I'll say goodbye to this sh***fu**** game, this is a FAAAAIIIILLLLL" and blablabla
Yeah, I can see the pvp spirit there
I enjoy pvp games or rather I enjoy fighting with players in a game online, but too many times the pvp is just thrown in there with no real concept or balance, too many times it ends up as a ganking or one zerg against 10 people who just logged in wondering if "there is any action?" getting stomped just as they leave their camp lol. That's not pvp.
So I'm having no problems at all if square leaves pvp out of Final Fantasy. They're sparing themselves the drama with players who just want the game mechanics either like WoW or DAoC "in this game it was like that, and in this other game players could do this, and back in <insert random pvp game here> you lost <insert random attribute here> when killed by another player, they really should bring <insert random pvp feature here>, it worked out just fine in <insert random pvp game here>, yes it would make everything SO MUCH better."
Care Bear 1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths.
Cast In The Name Of God, Ye Not Guilty
I'd rather be a carebear than deal with the shitty PvP systems in MMO's tbh.
Fighting games, FPS's and RTS's are much better for that purpose. Of course both MMO's and these games can not be played together, but somehow I've managed!
I'm not looking for PvP in MMO simply because other games at least try to make it balanced on the player. The original Guild Wars was the only tolerable PvP experience for me (was damn fun indeed), the rest is just filled with shitty "PvP".
So you either play shitty PvP or are a carebear. Fine with me.
rofl...
Thus your originally calling me a carebear does not apply afterall, since I'm of the "players who merely prefer PVE to PVP" cause I really don't care about the functions of PvP.
I am definitely one whom is "heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests" and a very good storyline in which to delve into. I find that the AI when done right {FFXI} is quite the challenge and its far more entertaining with very intelligent combat and strategies requires to survive.
XI is not "AI done right", lol.
XIV is showing promise however.
Maybe not to you, but I find it far better than in any MMO I've played...and really, how can ya tell the AI is any better in XIV...you can't...it looks similar to XI already; which is just fine!
There's lot of things I find better than other MMO's like the aggro system, but there's nothing good about the normal mob AI and even bosses have maybe one or two scripted events to them at best that they rotate... Even if other MMO's do worse than that, it's still too simple for a PvE game.
I've seen how mobs react in XIV and there's some really cool yet simple concepts that can really spice things up. I hope they'll be used more. Tanaka was speculating on some of the ideas he has planned for the encounters so I expect them to get only better in the long run.
If AI would be "done right" you wouldn't worry about PVP in the first place. Ever played FPS with good bots? When AI in MMOs will reach the level of some of those i'll agree 100%, but seeing what is there i cannot help but laugh at such argument.
The main reason people avoid PVP is reduced challenge/danger/risk. If AI would be as good as other players...but until it is not - many people don't like to loose and just enjoy their controllable scripted envirouments where they will always have and advantage over poor stupid NPCs
Why people afraid to fight in games where you loose virtually nothing is beyond me...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That its beyond you is.. kind of understandable given your reasoning, but not all games are about PVP, play any of the FF games and you will see why PVP isnt in there, its not what the games are about nor is it even needed, there are plenty of games around that have PVP after all. and, if you hadnt noticed, their not that popular.. the most 'desired' form of gameplay in MMO's apparently is PVE, the FF series of games just happen to 'scratch that itch' so if its not your 'thing' then.. check out games like APB. they have PVP to the max.. but as for adding PVP.. if it had PVP in it.. then it wouldnt be a FF game.
It's not people are afraid to fight in games. It's what comes AFTER the fight. Most people can't be a gracious "loser". They cry and whin after getting beaten by another player then start complaining about the other person(class) is over powered and the developers should do something about it and spamming the chat window about that. Also with pvp, most people do get verbally abusive. So yes, it's true that you don't really lose anything but why put up with the verbal abuse in the chat window? Most people also camp out some where and try to kill low level players then here we go, first we have the un-gracious losers complaining in the chat and we also have the lowe level players spaming the chat window, crying and cursing because someone just one shot them. Just more headache when you have pvp in the game...
And with PvP there's no fair competition.
When we'll get some real PvP balance - then I might agree with you.
This and also alot of ppl like me for example get our competition shots from playing rts, fps or even a second mmo game (like starcraft, eve, lineage2, wow och mw2 for me.)
A mmo doesnt have to include "direct confrontation pvp" do stand alone and strong. And having pvp in a game is not all flowers and bees. There are drawbacks to including it. The time alone you would have to put devtime on to balance an open classsystem skills to work for both pvp and pve is huuge.
There you get another drawback with pvp also; skills can never be "op" if they are to work for pvp. I could go on but really, they have said no to pvp on release and im thankful for it and believe the rest of the game will be so much better in the pve area becouse of it.
P.S - Typing this shit on iphone with swedish spelling was not really working, had to edit atleast some shit on this post from my PC to make it atleast resemble a decent post, sry for the eyes i hurt before the edit and i know its still not perfect >_>
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
If you have PvP in a game, you have to constantly balance around it because the playerbase is able to find a cookie cutter build that is deemed "op" in the eyes of the community.
Do you want the devs to spend a vast majority of their time constantly balancing around classes instead of creating more content?
PvP also goes against what FF is and has always been. FF, in any form has been working as a team/group to overcome immeasurable odds and "save" the world, etc etc.
There are plenty of games on the market that offer PvP and PvE.... NONE have gotten BOTH right. At the expense of ruining both by trying to balance around the complications that arise, I'd rather a company focus on one, than the other.
The PvP model of having pvp servers, or pve servers, rp servers may work well in other games, but by no means does that mean that ALL MMO'S have to follow the model. Unlike most other MMO'S, FFXIV is cross platform for each server, and EVERYONE in the world play on the SAME servers.
This means you have different cultures, languages, and personalities all playing at once. I'd rather a game nurture the attitude of working together to get something done rather than an emphasis on killing/griefing someone half way around the world.
FFXIV is about working together, not against each other. 99% of other MMO'S offer that if that's what you like. Please stop comming into a game forums and trying to change what a game fundamentally is. It's been in development for 5 years and if there's no PvP at launch, then it was NEVER intended to have PvP. To include PvP in a meaningful way at this point in development is to fundamentally change FFXIV. Long story short, you will never see meaningful pvp in this game as in WoW/Aion/AoC etc. By meaningful, I mean somethign that is fundamentally part of the game, and not as an afterthought.
So......
Why not accept the game for what it is? Try it out, if you enjoy it, then by all means please stay. If it's not your cup of tea, move on. Like most things in life.
but but but but... if it has no pvp its not really a game! it cannot be fun without pvp.... no games ever survive without pvp its tru mon!
Amirite?
In other news:
Well said.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
"Sense of improvement" through PvP isn't the only form of entertainment out there. Some prefer improvement through PvE content, some prefer it through PvP content.
1, Some games try to deliver on both ( very very few do so well, IMHO).
2. Some cater specifically to PvP.
3. Some cater specifically to PvE.
SE stuck strictly to #3 with FFXI and it did quite well for them. That's the model that worked for the type of experience they were making FFXI to be, and it worked very well. PvP had no purpose nor use in the world, and for them to add it simply because "some people would enjoy it and it might bring in more players" would have been pointless.
Likewise, they're sticking to specifically the PvE model with FFXIV because, again, that's the type of playstyle that will be best suited to the game they'r designing FFXIV to be.
As for players in PvP being unpredictable and "not boring like PvE mobs"? In my experience, that's often not true. In PvP MMOs, people will gravitate toward whatever is considered the "most efficient build", using the "most ideal gear", and the "most effective strategies". It's to the point that you know if someone's playing, say, a mage... You can assume with a high amount of accuracy, that they're spec'd out a certain way, are using certain gear and are likely to use a certain set of skills against you, based on your class or role. Thus, you know what to expect, what to counter with, if you can take them on as your given class or not, and how to approach the situation...
PvP against live players is not all that "unpredictable" as many make it out to be. It still mostly boils down to FoTM guides and cookie-cutter builds and strategies.
To demonstrate this, a rl friend of mine would regularly take out players on classes that - according to "common knowledge" - he shouldn't have been able to. Why? Because he didn't follow the templates, he didn't use the same builds, he didn't use the same tactics or skills... thus, he threw people off-guard just enough to get the upper hand on them. When he wasn't being flamed, or accused of hacking (many so-called "hardcore PvPers are also terrible sore losers), people would often ask him what his build was... so they could turn around and copy it. He wouldn't tell them because he knew that most players were so programmed to play a specific way in specific situations that he could get the upper-hand on them more times than not *because* he wasn't what they were expecting. He used the almost scripted predictability of cookie-cutter players to his advantage.
I was laughing one day on Ventrilo, as he was out looking for PvP. Every player he came across, he predicted almost move for move... "Oh... it's a nuker... Okay, first he's gonna do "x"... Now he's gonna do "y"... Yep... Now he's gonna either do "a" or "b"..." It was actually sad. The people - despite loving the "undpredictability" of PvP, made themself completely predictable.
I've seen this in every PvP MMO I've played....
Shadowbane - people provided and strongly suggested specific builds, including race, runes, etc. in order to "play your class right". People built their characters the same, they played them the same. They were predictable to anyone who spent any time fighting others of the same class.
Eve - In my time playing, I was regularly referenced to "standard" skill and ship build-outs to use for a given setup, that just happened to be the build-out/setup commonly recommended to everyone taking on a similar role. Thus, I would have been predictable to anyone who fought against others playing the same role as me, because they would have had a good idea, before even engaging me, what my setup was.
Lineage 2 - In my time playing that, I was regularly told that if I was playing "class x", then I needed to have a specific build, keep specific skills up to date, have specific weapons on me, specific tattoo setups, etc... So that I was setup just like every other person at my level playing that class... Thus, I would become predictable to anyone fighting me who had fought others of the same class and same setup.
Darkfall - In my time playing that game and reading its forums, people were recommended to take specific skills, in a specific order... Thus, they became mostly cookie-cutter clones of many other players they'd run into. No unpredictability beyond how good or poor the opponent was at using that build.
... and so on.
So, while players certainly have the potential to be unpredictable, it's wasted by most in favor of cookie-cutter templates and FoTM builds. I'm a fan of a good PvP MMO myself, but I do not buy into this conceit that somehow - by and large - PvP players are any less predictable or "scripted" than any PvE mob. Difference is, mobs are scripted by design; players are scripted by choice.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For the players that like pvp like me, yes we wouldnt bother spending time here posting and reading because by this point we all know FF14 will have no pvp.
I think the reason everyone has something to say is because most of us DID play 11. and as someone replied to my post saying it was aorund 50% of the population that died out after people began reaching max lvl. thats alot! and that 50% only wished this game was exactly the same with pvp.
why make the same game with better content and graphics? guild wars 2 wont be anything like guild wars 1 so why make them the same. u already have ur none pvp game its called FinalFantasy XI.
if u asked me i think they should come up with
Final Fantasy 7 Online
2 factions
Soldier vs Resistance
= Scent to bed =