For the players that like pvp like me, yes we wouldnt bother spending time here posting and reading because by this point we all know FF14 will have no pvp.
I think the reason everyone has something to say is because most of us DID play 11. and as someone replied to my post saying it was aorund 50% of the population that died out after people began reaching max lvl. thats alot! and that 50% only wished this game was exactly the same with pvp.
why make the same game with better content and graphics? guild wars 2 wont be anything like guild wars 1 so why make them the same. u already have ur none pvp game its called FinalFantasy XI.
if u asked me i think they should come up with
Final Fantasy 7 Online
2 factions
Soldier vs Resistance
If you're referring to me with the 50% reference...
Then wow... Way to completely spin what I said out of context to further your own flawed argument.
I was responding to your flawed math that out of 1 million players (your number), 70% (your figure) of the people left the game, "because of no PvP" (your claim), leaving only "thousands" (your figure).
I challenged your "logic" by pointing out that...
1. Going with your numbers (again, not official... just *your* numbers), the population settled off at 500,000 for up to 7 years after its launch. That's 50% remaining of 1 million... not 30%, per your claim. And it's not "thousands", it's *hundreds of thousands*.
2. You used inflated, unsupported numbers to try and make a point that is, itself, flawed.
3. You claimed, and are still claiming, they all left because of no PvP. Now, I know many PvPers, like yourself apparently, seem to think that everyone does, or should share your opinion on the importance of PvP... Well, all I'll say to that is you're free to tell yourself whatever you want.
However, I will ask you again to provide the objective data (as in, not your own speculation) to support your claim. Produce the data that bears out your claims of "70% left" and "thousands remained", citing "the game had no PvP" as their reasoning. Go ahead.. I'll wait.
You also conveniently ignored the fact that despite not having PvP (beyond Ballista, etc), FFXI has maintained as much as twice the server and player population of a number of newer MMOs that *do* have PvP. MMOs like Warhammer, LoTRO and so forth leveled off at around ~200k only months after their launch, despite having some form of PvP. Some MMOs like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault were pulled because they weren't doing well enough, despite having PvP.
Meanwhile, FFXI maintained ~500,000 across 34 servers up to 7 *years* after its launch, despite not having PvP, despite being a very "niche" game, and despite having aging graphics and obtuse controls and interface to learn.
In short: The facts do not support your arguments, lovehina21. PvP is *not* as important to as many people as you (and others) insist it is. There is no precedent to show that FFXIV would somehow be better off if they tacked on a PvP system.
FFXI has proven to be perfectly viable as a AAA MMO. It continues to run strong long after most of its similarly aged contemporaries (DAoC, EQ1, etc) have largely fizzled out. It still sits in the top 10 P2P MMOs population-wise. It hasn't needed PvP to accomplish any of that.
Likewise, if they play their cards right, FFXIV will do just as well.
Now... if you're not referring to me with the 50% reference... then nevermind :-p
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
thats a huge post about population and there is no need to defend FF11 since im not saying the game is dead. in fact i never said that. yes i did say many subscribers left because of the lack of pvp. im gonna go ahead and guess the majority of those quiters were probably dissapointed just like i was at the fact FF11 had no pvp.
so what i do want to point out is that why make a sequel to a great game by making it practically the same game. All those 7 years of work down the drain if u ask me, cuz ull be doing it all over again in "IMAX 3D"
what about taking into consideration how can we keep all our players and bring back all the ones we lost?
thats the question they should be asking . but how do they expect to bring thousands of players that got bored cuz of the lack of pvp back to a game that wont have pvp. and ballista was thier failed attempt at trying to keep us.
You also conveniently ignored the fact that despite not having PvP (beyond Ballista, etc), FFXI has maintained as much as twice the server and player population of a number of newer MMOs that *do* have PvP. MMOs like Warhammer, LoTRO and so forth leveled off at around ~200k only months after their launch, despite having some form of PvP. Some MMOs like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault were pulled because they weren't doing well enough, despite having PvP.
Meanwhile, FFXI maintained ~500,000 across 34 servers up to 7 *years* after its launch, despite not having PvP, despite being a very "niche" game, and despite having aging graphics and obtuse controls and interface to learn.
In short: The facts do not support your arguments, lovehina21. PvP is *not* as important to as many people as you (and others) insist it is. There is no precedent to show that FFXIV would somehow be better off if they tacked on a PvP system.
A few things to pointout about this post:
-LOTRO "pvp" is a joke, it is not real PvP with your actual characters and progression, so most do not bother with it for that aand several other reasons. They could completely remove it from the game and it would bother very few people currently playing.
-Youre trying to compare games with PvP in them as if all games are equal in all aspects EXCEPT for the having PvP part, as if they are all FF + PvP or something. Many of the PvP focused games have dozens of other major issues unrelated to PvP (such as horrible support, lack of promised content, game breaking bugs, etc) which caused their downfall / dwindling numbers. It is not BECAUSE they have PvP that they failed.
-Simply inserting PvP into a game does not make it a good/great game, it has to be done well. PvP does not = good, good pvp = good
Considering the above 2 points, PvP is very important to many more peoplethan you would like to admit, it is just a matter of so few games actually doing an even decent job with it, let alone doing it excellently. If the proper game had everything to offer, including well executed PvP rather than it being almost an afte rthought or simply horribly designed, you would not see it fail like many of the games released the past few years. Some people are willing to suffer through any horrible gameplay and design in order to get their pvp fix, and those few still play those games, but everyone else has left due to many other issues, not due to the fact that it has PvP.
the majority of those quiters were probably dissapointed just like i was at the fact FF11 had no pvp.
what about taking into consideration how can we keep all our players and bring back all the ones we lost?
thats the question they should be asking . but how do they expect to bring thousands of players that got bored cuz of the lack of pvp back to a game that wont have pvp.
Heh, still on the trip that the only reason players left FFXI was because it had no PvP...if anything it was never about not having PvP, do you not understand a single thing WSIMike recently said or anyone else for that matter? PVP is not the be-all-end-all feature...and in this case its not wanted or needed due to the nature of how the lore and gameplay of FFXIV is designed.
The #1 reason why many have left FFXI is because of the extreme amount of time required and dedication to get things done and progress; as most of the content required 6-18man PTs. Much of it still does to a point, but with of the updates over the past few years SE have been slowly adding more options for solo/duo/trio and quad PTs. Some of us gamers have lives and families to worry about too, and playing an MMO that requires you spend a good 3-5 hours a day to make substantial progress is wearing.
By alleviating the massive time dedication and making it more solo-friendly, which SE are doing just that with the Guildleve system... Seriously doubt you ever played FFXI, nor do you read anything about FFXIV...
You also conveniently ignored the fact that despite not having PvP (beyond Ballista, etc), FFXI has maintained as much as twice the server and player population of a number of newer MMOs that *do* have PvP. MMOs like Warhammer, LoTRO and so forth leveled off at around ~200k only months after their launch, despite having some form of PvP. Some MMOs like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault were pulled because they weren't doing well enough, despite having PvP.
Meanwhile, FFXI maintained ~500,000 across 34 servers up to 7 *years* after its launch, despite not having PvP, despite being a very "niche" game, and despite having aging graphics and obtuse controls and interface to learn.
In short: The facts do not support your arguments, lovehina21. PvP is *not* as important to as many people as you (and others) insist it is. There is no precedent to show that FFXIV would somehow be better off if they tacked on a PvP system.
A few things to pointout about this post:
-LOTRO "pvp" is a joke, it is not real PvP with your actual characters and progression, so most do not bother with it for that aand several other reasons. They could completely remove it from the game and it would bother very few people currently playing.
-Youre trying to compare games with PvP in them as if all games are equal in all aspects EXCEPT for the having PvP part, as if they are all FF + PvP or something. Many of the PvP focused games have dozens of other major issues unrelated to PvP (such as horrible support, lack of promised content, game breaking bugs, etc) which caused their downfall / dwindling numbers. It is not BECAUSE they have PvP that they failed.
-Simply inserting PvP into a game does not make it a good/great game, it has to be done well. PvP does not = good, good pvp = good
Considering the above 2 points, PvP is very important to many more peoplethan you would like to admit, it is just a matter of so few games actually doing an even decent job with it, let alone doing it excellently. If the proper game had everything to offer, including well executed PvP rather than it being almost an afte rthought or simply horribly designed, you would not see it fail like many of the games released the past few years. Some people are willing to suffer through any horrible gameplay and design in order to get their pvp fix, and those few still play those games, but everyone else has left due to many other issues, not due to the fact that it has PvP.
And probably a big part of the reason those games had alot of flaws is due to the fact that they had to merge in pvp with it all. Mergin in a meaningful pvp system is an _extreem_ resource hog wich will dramatacly cut down on the time you could have spent on other stuff. Just the simple thing of balancing the classes..
I believe Square realizes this, says lets not try to force pvp and recieve a huuuge amount of time to do an awesom pve game, and i bet you in the end theyll have more customers that way in the end.
Most ppl didnt leave FFXI becouse it lacked PvP, they left for the same reasons most left Lineage2. It was a korean group grinder with (i cant really speak for ffxi hear, but from what my classbuddies told me at the time its true that ffxi suffered from high RMT damage at that time) alot of BOTS and RMT.
Lineage2 had PVP as a major concept and was actually one of the best PvP systems ive seen yet to date for open pvp (if you could handle the RMT wich they didnt), yet still they went down in flames in US/EU for the same reasons FFXI did, Groupheavy, Grindy, alot of DUALBOXING etcetc.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
We do accept you are differnt, its just our belifes are, when it gets to a certain extent in the game. Fighting scripted content over, over, over,over, and over gets really old fast. People in the PvP community want a challenge, something unpredictable that put your skills to the test. Theres just more of an adrenaline rush out of PvP then there is killing a dragon or saving some princess. But I will respect that some of you enjoy it and thats good.
We do accept you are differnt, its just our belifes are, when it gets to a certain extent in the game. Fighting scripted content over, over, over,over, and over gets really old fast. People in the PvP community want a challenge, something unpredictable that put your skills to the test. Theres just more of an adrenaline rush out of PvP then there is killing a dragon or saving some princess. But I will respect that some of you enjoy it and thats good.
To Quote: You dont always want to have fun by pumping adrenaline and fistpumping your way to victory in a PvP game. Theres lots of ways more to enjoy your gametime! But many PvP players in this thread seems to imply that if it has no PvP it will fail, since PvP is the only TRUE enjoyment.
Wich is shortsighted, unrespectful bullshit. Glad you can atleast see whats outside your Box Shokero. And I totally respect the ppl who wants there gametime to be an all out adrenaline pump also!
OT: To be fair, fighting the same pvp battle ground over and over and over again also gets old, unless you add in new skills, new levels, new battle grounds, new stuff to fight over etc.
Just as with PvE where there needs to be more content added if they want ppl to keep playing. EvE is a prime example of how they have to keep adding stuff to pvp with or for.
Also i agree PvP is awesome! i love it to the extreem since im comming from Starcraft, Lineage2, EvE, WoW Vanilla (always made new characters on new realms that where added to get fresh start and pvp like MAD when leveling) etc.
But just becouse i enjoy pvp alot, doesnt mean i want every game i play to be Adrenaline fist pumping madness gaming! (althou i want it alot )
Sometimes i just want a good singelplayer game with a nice story (FF, Zelda etc) or a fun Co-Op (Phantasy Star Online, Perfect Dark, Borderlands or what have you).
Sometimes i just want a Racing game or fighting game.
Sometimes i want Co-Op on big scale, with RPG and adventure! - FFXIV is pretty alone in this regards, with competition from games like Lotro and FFXI mostely. Sadly i never enjoyed Lotros Classystem that much (not my type of classes basicly) and i missed the FFXI era, wich makes me droolin over FFXIV atm. Especially since i plan on getting all my PvP i can ever need from Starcraft2!
PvP mmos require jsut as much content to it as a PvE game, you get tired of the same PvE dungeons, you get tired of the same class and battleground PvP. (and i mean the same, even balancing means work and added stuff)
Mixing them togheter makes it a jack of all trades, or more often a complete failure ^^ (Lineage2 and WoW are 2 games i think did both good (not perfect))
TLDR note: Adrenaline is alot of fun and PvP brings that alot. But being hyper is not the only enjoyment. Engaging your brain in puzzles, exploring, socializing or Achiving a goal (no matter the size) are all forms of entertainment.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Thats a real shame, because even for all the players that dont like pvp. What exactly do you do once u hit max lvl? I mean, there is no point in getting legendary gear from epic bosses cuz ur not competing with anyone right?... right??? But just to be fair, some will say "but i like raiding and collecting itemz". .... so lets say you do get all the gears, u can 1 shot monsters now,
GOOD JOB ...
you know what happens to my ps3 games after i hit max lvl or beat it?... i trade it in. im afraid with all the games coming out FFXIV will fail.
believe it or not it is possible to play a game because it offers an immersive world and a great PvE challenge. This just isn't a game for PvP nuts, there won't ever be FFA griefing with full looting and death penalties. If you want to be an online psychopath FF won't be for you.
thats a huge post about population and there is no need to defend FF11 since im not saying the game is dead. in fact i never said that. yes i did say many subscribers left because of the lack of pvp. im gonna go ahead and guess the majority of those quiters were probably dissapointed just like i was at the fact FF11 had no pvp.
so what i do want to point out is that why make a sequel to a great game by making it practically the same game. All those 7 years of work down the drain if u ask me, cuz ull be doing it all over again in "IMAX 3D"
what about taking into consideration how can we keep all our players and bring back all the ones we lost?
thats the question they should be asking . but how do they expect to bring thousands of players that got bored cuz of the lack of pvp back to a game that wont have pvp. and ballista was thier failed attempt at trying to keep us.
I and most of my entire LS didn't quit XI because of the lack of PvP. We all just moved onto something more time convenient, so that we could continue to play together without having to rearrange out real life schedule.
Do you even realize how many MMOs released in the last few years with PvP in mind have gone quietly into the done and dinner pile? CoH, CoV, Champions, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Vanguard.... Your argument that a MMO needs full on PvP like those games to succeed is completely flawed.
thats a huge post about population and there is no need to defend FF11 since im not saying the game is dead. in fact i never said that. yes i did say many subscribers left because of the lack of pvp. im gonna go ahead and guess the majority of those quiters were probably dissapointed just like i was at the fact FF11 had no pvp.
so what i do want to point out is that why make a sequel to a great game by making it practically the same game. All those 7 years of work down the drain if u ask me, cuz ull be doing it all over again in "IMAX 3D"
what about taking into consideration how can we keep all our players and bring back all the ones we lost?
thats the question they should be asking . but how do they expect to bring thousands of players that got bored cuz of the lack of pvp back to a game that wont have pvp. and ballista was thier failed attempt at trying to keep us.
I and most of my entire LS didn't quit XI because of the lack of PvP. We all just moved onto something more time convenient, so that we could continue to play together without having to rearrange out real life schedule.
Do you even realize how many MMOs released in the last few years with PvP in mind have gone quietly into the done and dinner pile? CoH, CoV, Champions, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Vanguard.... Your argument that a MMO needs full on PvP like those games to succeed is completely flawed.
I love how people keep pointing out games that had pvp in them and failed as if PvP was the cause of their suckage. First off, COH/COV actually did pretty well in its time, and has been out for what 4-5 years? Cant really compare that with the failures in the past year or 2. I dont pay much attention to CO, so cant say anything there, but WAR and AOC both died out because of things like terribly buggy and craptastic launches, performance issues, long delays in fixing said issues, lack of features which we were promised, and changes to the games after launch that many did not like. None of those things = PvP. Even if they had been PvE games they would have still done terribkle becaus eof all of their major issues and being developed largely by incompetent people or being rushed out the doors by the suits.
@ Illyssia - PvP does not = FFA full loot..... that would actually be called FFA Full loot PvP, not simply PvP. There are, and always have been several varying forms of PvP, many of which are not FFA or have any form of looting. Dont try to throw all PvP togethe rinto one group with game slike Darkfall, that is not the only PvP in existence.
Just because the PVP players ask for PVP doesn't mean they want to camp spawn points and steal loots from new players. Please get over this silly stereotype... it's almost insulting, and you're making the PVE players look even more ignorant.
It reminds me of when you play any other MMO that isn't WoW and the general chat is filled with people spewing out crap from their mouths about how WoW is filled with 15 year old Counter-Strike teenieboppers who just ninja loot raids and bunnyhop around Ironforge calling people any manner of racial slur in between BG queues. It's just so wrong.
The OP certainly didn't do a good job of bringing up the subject and has made some pretty bold and silly statements, but calling PVPers 'numnuts' and getting so butt hurt whenever anyone brings up the topic isn't much better.
I mean, is it so hard just to answer the question and move on to the next thread?
Anyways, on the subject, I would love to see some sort of PVP system in FFXIV, but they've clearly made their point that this is a game that is going to appeal to the PVE mmo players. I'll probably still play it, I'll just have to look elsewhere for my MMOPVP needs.
Just because the PVP players ask for PVP doesn't mean they want to camp spawn points and steal loots from new players. Please get over this silly stereotype...
Then you better not forget to re-send out the memo to the PvPers who camp spawn points and steal loot from new players. They must have missed the first one.
Problem with PvP is that you CAN'T make a good PvE game, and balance it around PvP. There will be classes that are at a disadvantage 1v1, and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to go around the world in a full group all the time.
Either have a PvP centric game with some PvE, or a PvE game without PvP, or have other types of competitions that do not rely on the adventuring skills. This game is the latter and I am happy it is. I have done PvP, and I have seen how good PvE games get nerfed and consequently damaged because a "balance" is attempted among all the adventuring classes.
If they want to add PvP to FFXIV, they should just have pre-made toons that you can select to go into the world, with NO interaction with any PvE toons or NPCs, and which you can only fight others that are also using those pre-made toons. No balance issues, just Player vs Player combat out in the real world among those that want to. Now, if you cringe at this and are saying: no, I should be able to go and kill anyone I want, then you have issues which would take to long to explain on this entire thread.
we are at 111 votes and the biggest slice of the pie wants some sort of PVP (mini game style pvp) or at least its what most people think ff14 will have.
so the majority still wants or wishes for some pvp here. wasnt there a post somewhere with someone mentioning clues from the logo implying FF14 would have some sort of pvp?
Im still hoping this game will have decent pvp and with its good PVE the game will be a great hit.
we are at 111 votes and the biggest slice of the pie wants some sort of PVP (mini game style pvp) or at least its what most people think ff14 will have.
so the majority still wants or wishes for some pvp here. wasnt there a post somewhere with someone mentioning clues from the logo implying FF14 would have some sort of pvp?
Im still hoping this game will have decent pvp and with its good PVE the game will be a great hit.
I dont think anyone said that there wouldnt be any pvp. There will something like Ballista which, you go to a certain region to fight. But I didnt participate much in that. As far as the type of PVP you are looking for. Well, I dont believe there will be anything like WoW, AoC, or any other big PVP games. Ballista, was a very small portion of the game and some people liked it. But again, it was not a focus point for the Developers. If you were curious as to what Ballista was about...
http://zoome.jp/kusotaru/diary/66 you gotta wait till 3:30 in this video. Thats when they atcually start fighting. But if you were wondering what it was, this is a great example. Otherwise, this is THE PVP in FFXI. I assume based on some developers comments it is going to be the same in FFXIV. I do hope that helps a little...
I played a lot of Ballista, so I'm sure that 1% niche community will be involved in the pvp mini games SE implements later. I'll give it an honest whirl.
Problem with PvP is that you CAN'T make a good PvE game, and balance it around PvP. There will be classes that are at a disadvantage 1v1, and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to go around the world in a full group all the time. Either have a PvP centric game with some PvE, or a PvE game without PvP, or have other types of competitions that do not rely on the adventuring skills. This game is the latter and I am happy it is. I have done PvP, and I have seen how good PvE games get nerfed and consequently damaged because a "balance" is attempted among all the adventuring classes. If they want to add PvP to FFXIV, they should just have pre-made toons that you can select to go into the world, with NO interaction with any PvE toons or NPCs, and which you can only fight others that are also using those pre-made toons. No balance issues, just Player vs Player combat out in the real world among those that want to. Now, if you cringe at this and are saying: no, I should be able to go and kill anyone I want, then you have issues which would take to long to explain on this entire thread.
You will have some form of mini game for PvP in FF XIV, it's just not clear exactly what SE have in mind and whether it will be present in the game at launch or will make it into some content patch post launch. The thing with SE is they want there mmorpg to be PvE game so you might get quite a lite sort of PvP, maybe going to a small zone to joust other players on special Chocobos. I'd have thought they could implement some form of PvP mini game kinda thing through a variant of their coming Guildleves system, that way it all fits into 30 minute bites, but doesn't get in the way of the actual main game.
Not that I expect anything like this but just as an imagining - I would think a good pvp/pve design would be to design a world specifically for pve then add a mirror world ala UO where you step through the portal with a warning "Design not balanced for pvp. Proceed at your own risk. NO CRYING, NO WHINING, NO COMPLAINING. Bitching about pvp balance on forums will result in suspension".
It looks like FFXIV is a good quality game, but I was thinking I am gonna sacrify the PVP fun part. Such hesitation may not placed FFXIV as first expecting game to play.
And I think PVP in today just like remote controller of TV.
I think FFIV will be fine if it replicates in some fashion FFXI's "Balista" style game or like Guild Wars with regulated/controlled settings and matches as an outlet for PvP. World PvP or Realm PvP simply didn't fit in FFXI and wouldn't fit probably in FFXIV.
Comments
If you're referring to me with the 50% reference...
Then wow... Way to completely spin what I said out of context to further your own flawed argument.
I was responding to your flawed math that out of 1 million players (your number), 70% (your figure) of the people left the game, "because of no PvP" (your claim), leaving only "thousands" (your figure).
I challenged your "logic" by pointing out that...
1. Going with your numbers (again, not official... just *your* numbers), the population settled off at 500,000 for up to 7 years after its launch. That's 50% remaining of 1 million... not 30%, per your claim. And it's not "thousands", it's *hundreds of thousands*.
2. You used inflated, unsupported numbers to try and make a point that is, itself, flawed.
3. You claimed, and are still claiming, they all left because of no PvP. Now, I know many PvPers, like yourself apparently, seem to think that everyone does, or should share your opinion on the importance of PvP... Well, all I'll say to that is you're free to tell yourself whatever you want.
However, I will ask you again to provide the objective data (as in, not your own speculation) to support your claim. Produce the data that bears out your claims of "70% left" and "thousands remained", citing "the game had no PvP" as their reasoning. Go ahead.. I'll wait.
You also conveniently ignored the fact that despite not having PvP (beyond Ballista, etc), FFXI has maintained as much as twice the server and player population of a number of newer MMOs that *do* have PvP. MMOs like Warhammer, LoTRO and so forth leveled off at around ~200k only months after their launch, despite having some form of PvP. Some MMOs like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault were pulled because they weren't doing well enough, despite having PvP.
Meanwhile, FFXI maintained ~500,000 across 34 servers up to 7 *years* after its launch, despite not having PvP, despite being a very "niche" game, and despite having aging graphics and obtuse controls and interface to learn.
In short: The facts do not support your arguments, lovehina21. PvP is *not* as important to as many people as you (and others) insist it is. There is no precedent to show that FFXIV would somehow be better off if they tacked on a PvP system.
FFXI has proven to be perfectly viable as a AAA MMO. It continues to run strong long after most of its similarly aged contemporaries (DAoC, EQ1, etc) have largely fizzled out. It still sits in the top 10 P2P MMOs population-wise. It hasn't needed PvP to accomplish any of that.
Likewise, if they play their cards right, FFXIV will do just as well.
Now... if you're not referring to me with the 50% reference... then nevermind :-p
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
thats a huge post about population and there is no need to defend FF11 since im not saying the game is dead. in fact i never said that. yes i did say many subscribers left because of the lack of pvp. im gonna go ahead and guess the majority of those quiters were probably dissapointed just like i was at the fact FF11 had no pvp.
so what i do want to point out is that why make a sequel to a great game by making it practically the same game. All those 7 years of work down the drain if u ask me, cuz ull be doing it all over again in "IMAX 3D"
what about taking into consideration how can we keep all our players and bring back all the ones we lost?
thats the question they should be asking . but how do they expect to bring thousands of players that got bored cuz of the lack of pvp back to a game that wont have pvp. and ballista was thier failed attempt at trying to keep us.
= Scent to bed =
A few things to pointout about this post:
-LOTRO "pvp" is a joke, it is not real PvP with your actual characters and progression, so most do not bother with it for that aand several other reasons. They could completely remove it from the game and it would bother very few people currently playing.
-Youre trying to compare games with PvP in them as if all games are equal in all aspects EXCEPT for the having PvP part, as if they are all FF + PvP or something. Many of the PvP focused games have dozens of other major issues unrelated to PvP (such as horrible support, lack of promised content, game breaking bugs, etc) which caused their downfall / dwindling numbers. It is not BECAUSE they have PvP that they failed.
-Simply inserting PvP into a game does not make it a good/great game, it has to be done well. PvP does not = good, good pvp = good
Considering the above 2 points, PvP is very important to many more peoplethan you would like to admit, it is just a matter of so few games actually doing an even decent job with it, let alone doing it excellently. If the proper game had everything to offer, including well executed PvP rather than it being almost an afte rthought or simply horribly designed, you would not see it fail like many of the games released the past few years. Some people are willing to suffer through any horrible gameplay and design in order to get their pvp fix, and those few still play those games, but everyone else has left due to many other issues, not due to the fact that it has PvP.
Heh, still on the trip that the only reason players left FFXI was because it had no PvP...if anything it was never about not having PvP, do you not understand a single thing WSIMike recently said or anyone else for that matter? PVP is not the be-all-end-all feature...and in this case its not wanted or needed due to the nature of how the lore and gameplay of FFXIV is designed.
The #1 reason why many have left FFXI is because of the extreme amount of time required and dedication to get things done and progress; as most of the content required 6-18man PTs. Much of it still does to a point, but with of the updates over the past few years SE have been slowly adding more options for solo/duo/trio and quad PTs. Some of us gamers have lives and families to worry about too, and playing an MMO that requires you spend a good 3-5 hours a day to make substantial progress is wearing.
By alleviating the massive time dedication and making it more solo-friendly, which SE are doing just that with the Guildleve system... Seriously doubt you ever played FFXI, nor do you read anything about FFXIV...
And probably a big part of the reason those games had alot of flaws is due to the fact that they had to merge in pvp with it all. Mergin in a meaningful pvp system is an _extreem_ resource hog wich will dramatacly cut down on the time you could have spent on other stuff. Just the simple thing of balancing the classes..
I believe Square realizes this, says lets not try to force pvp and recieve a huuuge amount of time to do an awesom pve game, and i bet you in the end theyll have more customers that way in the end.
Most ppl didnt leave FFXI becouse it lacked PvP, they left for the same reasons most left Lineage2. It was a korean group grinder with (i cant really speak for ffxi hear, but from what my classbuddies told me at the time its true that ffxi suffered from high RMT damage at that time) alot of BOTS and RMT.
Lineage2 had PVP as a major concept and was actually one of the best PvP systems ive seen yet to date for open pvp (if you could handle the RMT wich they didnt), yet still they went down in flames in US/EU for the same reasons FFXI did, Groupheavy, Grindy, alot of DUALBOXING etcetc.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
To me this shows exactly that PvP fans and PvE fans will never understand eachother.
We have different taste in what enjoys us. Why force our opinion on the other?
Why can't we just accept that we are different?
We do accept you are differnt, its just our belifes are, when it gets to a certain extent in the game. Fighting scripted content over, over, over,over, and over gets really old fast. People in the PvP community want a challenge, something unpredictable that put your skills to the test. Theres just more of an adrenaline rush out of PvP then there is killing a dragon or saving some princess. But I will respect that some of you enjoy it and thats good.
Cast In The Name Of God, Ye Not Guilty
To Quote: You dont always want to have fun by pumping adrenaline and fistpumping your way to victory in a PvP game. Theres lots of ways more to enjoy your gametime! But many PvP players in this thread seems to imply that if it has no PvP it will fail, since PvP is the only TRUE enjoyment.
Wich is shortsighted, unrespectful bullshit. Glad you can atleast see whats outside your Box Shokero. And I totally respect the ppl who wants there gametime to be an all out adrenaline pump also!
OT: To be fair, fighting the same pvp battle ground over and over and over again also gets old, unless you add in new skills, new levels, new battle grounds, new stuff to fight over etc.
Just as with PvE where there needs to be more content added if they want ppl to keep playing. EvE is a prime example of how they have to keep adding stuff to pvp with or for.
Also i agree PvP is awesome! i love it to the extreem since im comming from Starcraft, Lineage2, EvE, WoW Vanilla (always made new characters on new realms that where added to get fresh start and pvp like MAD when leveling) etc.
But just becouse i enjoy pvp alot, doesnt mean i want every game i play to be Adrenaline fist pumping madness gaming! (althou i want it alot )
Sometimes i just want a good singelplayer game with a nice story (FF, Zelda etc) or a fun Co-Op (Phantasy Star Online, Perfect Dark, Borderlands or what have you).
Sometimes i just want a Racing game or fighting game.
Sometimes i want Co-Op on big scale, with RPG and adventure! - FFXIV is pretty alone in this regards, with competition from games like Lotro and FFXI mostely. Sadly i never enjoyed Lotros Classystem that much (not my type of classes basicly) and i missed the FFXI era, wich makes me droolin over FFXIV atm. Especially since i plan on getting all my PvP i can ever need from Starcraft2!
PvP mmos require jsut as much content to it as a PvE game, you get tired of the same PvE dungeons, you get tired of the same class and battleground PvP. (and i mean the same, even balancing means work and added stuff)
Mixing them togheter makes it a jack of all trades, or more often a complete failure ^^ (Lineage2 and WoW are 2 games i think did both good (not perfect))
TLDR note: Adrenaline is alot of fun and PvP brings that alot. But being hyper is not the only enjoyment. Engaging your brain in puzzles, exploring, socializing or Achiving a goal (no matter the size) are all forms of entertainment.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
I and most of my entire LS didn't quit XI because of the lack of PvP. We all just moved onto something more time convenient, so that we could continue to play together without having to rearrange out real life schedule.
Do you even realize how many MMOs released in the last few years with PvP in mind have gone quietly into the done and dinner pile? CoH, CoV, Champions, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Vanguard.... Your argument that a MMO needs full on PvP like those games to succeed is completely flawed.
I love how people keep pointing out games that had pvp in them and failed as if PvP was the cause of their suckage. First off, COH/COV actually did pretty well in its time, and has been out for what 4-5 years? Cant really compare that with the failures in the past year or 2. I dont pay much attention to CO, so cant say anything there, but WAR and AOC both died out because of things like terribly buggy and craptastic launches, performance issues, long delays in fixing said issues, lack of features which we were promised, and changes to the games after launch that many did not like. None of those things = PvP. Even if they had been PvE games they would have still done terribkle becaus eof all of their major issues and being developed largely by incompetent people or being rushed out the doors by the suits.
@ Illyssia - PvP does not = FFA full loot..... that would actually be called FFA Full loot PvP, not simply PvP. There are, and always have been several varying forms of PvP, many of which are not FFA or have any form of looting. Dont try to throw all PvP togethe rinto one group with game slike Darkfall, that is not the only PvP in existence.
Just because the PVP players ask for PVP doesn't mean they want to camp spawn points and steal loots from new players. Please get over this silly stereotype... it's almost insulting, and you're making the PVE players look even more ignorant.
It reminds me of when you play any other MMO that isn't WoW and the general chat is filled with people spewing out crap from their mouths about how WoW is filled with 15 year old Counter-Strike teenieboppers who just ninja loot raids and bunnyhop around Ironforge calling people any manner of racial slur in between BG queues. It's just so wrong.
The OP certainly didn't do a good job of bringing up the subject and has made some pretty bold and silly statements, but calling PVPers 'numnuts' and getting so butt hurt whenever anyone brings up the topic isn't much better.
I mean, is it so hard just to answer the question and move on to the next thread?
Anyways, on the subject, I would love to see some sort of PVP system in FFXIV, but they've clearly made their point that this is a game that is going to appeal to the PVE mmo players. I'll probably still play it, I'll just have to look elsewhere for my MMOPVP needs.
Then you better not forget to re-send out the memo to the PvPers who camp spawn points and steal loot from new players. They must have missed the first one.
Can't have PvP without jumping.
Problem with PvP is that you CAN'T make a good PvE game, and balance it around PvP. There will be classes that are at a disadvantage 1v1, and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to go around the world in a full group all the time.
Either have a PvP centric game with some PvE, or a PvE game without PvP, or have other types of competitions that do not rely on the adventuring skills. This game is the latter and I am happy it is. I have done PvP, and I have seen how good PvE games get nerfed and consequently damaged because a "balance" is attempted among all the adventuring classes.
If they want to add PvP to FFXIV, they should just have pre-made toons that you can select to go into the world, with NO interaction with any PvE toons or NPCs, and which you can only fight others that are also using those pre-made toons. No balance issues, just Player vs Player combat out in the real world among those that want to. Now, if you cringe at this and are saying: no, I should be able to go and kill anyone I want, then you have issues which would take to long to explain on this entire thread.
2 words for you mate: Guild Wars.
we are at 111 votes and the biggest slice of the pie wants some sort of PVP (mini game style pvp) or at least its what most people think ff14 will have.
so the majority still wants or wishes for some pvp here. wasnt there a post somewhere with someone mentioning clues from the logo implying FF14 would have some sort of pvp?
Im still hoping this game will have decent pvp and with its good PVE the game will be a great hit.
= Scent to bed =
I dont think anyone said that there wouldnt be any pvp. There will something like Ballista which, you go to a certain region to fight. But I didnt participate much in that. As far as the type of PVP you are looking for. Well, I dont believe there will be anything like WoW, AoC, or any other big PVP games. Ballista, was a very small portion of the game and some people liked it. But again, it was not a focus point for the Developers. If you were curious as to what Ballista was about...
http://zoome.jp/kusotaru/diary/66 you gotta wait till 3:30 in this video. Thats when they atcually start fighting. But if you were wondering what it was, this is a great example. Otherwise, this is THE PVP in FFXI. I assume based on some developers comments it is going to be the same in FFXIV. I do hope that helps a little...
I played a lot of Ballista, so I'm sure that 1% niche community will be involved in the pvp mini games SE implements later. I'll give it an honest whirl.
Not that I expect anything like this but just as an imagining - I would think a good pvp/pve design would be to design a world specifically for pve then add a mirror world ala UO where you step through the portal with a warning "Design not balanced for pvp. Proceed at your own risk. NO CRYING, NO WHINING, NO COMPLAINING. Bitching about pvp balance on forums will result in suspension".
After a few beers all I can say to that post is hell ya.
It looks like FFXIV is a good quality game, but I was thinking I am gonna sacrify the PVP fun part. Such hesitation may not placed FFXIV as first expecting game to play.
And I think PVP in today just like remote controller of TV.
I think FFIV will be fine if it replicates in some fashion FFXI's "Balista" style game or like Guild Wars with regulated/controlled settings and matches as an outlet for PvP. World PvP or Realm PvP simply didn't fit in FFXI and wouldn't fit probably in FFXIV.
The only kind of pvp that should be in this game is like lord of the rings monster play.
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