PvP is a major part for most MMO's out there today. Upon launch they won't have it implimented I'm sure. But you can only kill NPC's forever, ppl wanna kill other ppl! So in the future they will most likely implement some form of PvP.
I definitely would want PvP, but FFXI being my first MMO, I really don't expect it. I don't see the problem in adding some thing like WoW's battlegrounds. If I remember correctly, Ballista happened every once in a while. I definitely didn't like that. It would be nice to PvP whenever you want. The game doesn't need world pvp, but instanced PvP would be fine.
Regardless, I think I'll check it out, just for old times sake.
Not that I expect anything like this but just as an imagining - I would think a good pvp/pve design would be to design a world specifically for pve then add a mirror world ala UO where you step through the portal with a warning "Design not balanced for pvp. Proceed at your own risk. NO CRYING, NO WHINING, NO COMPLAINING. Bitching about pvp balance on forums will result in suspension".
Not that I expect anything like this but just as an imagining - I would think a good pvp/pve design would be to design a world specifically for pve then add a mirror world ala UO where you step through the portal with a warning "Design not balanced for pvp. Proceed at your own risk. NO CRYING, NO WHINING, NO COMPLAINING. Bitching about pvp balance on forums will result in suspension".
hahaha, somebody give this guy a medal.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
-LOTRO "pvp" is a joke, it is not real PvP with your actual characters and progression, so most do not bother with it for that aand several other reasons. They could completely remove it from the game and it would bother very few people currently playing.
-Youre trying to compare games with PvP in them as if all games are equal in all aspects EXCEPT for the having PvP part, as if they are all FF + PvP or something. Many of the PvP focused games have dozens of other major issues unrelated to PvP (such as horrible support, lack of promised content, game breaking bugs, etc) which caused their downfall / dwindling numbers. It is not BECAUSE they have PvP that they failed.
-Simply inserting PvP into a game does not make it a good/great game, it has to be done well. PvP does not = good, good pvp = good
Considering the above 2 points, PvP is very important to many more peoplethan you would like to admit, it is just a matter of so few games actually doing an even decent job with it, let alone doing it excellently. If the proper game had everything to offer, including well executed PvP rather than it being almost an afte rthought or simply horribly designed, you would not see it fail like many of the games released the past few years. Some people are willing to suffer through any horrible gameplay and design in order to get their pvp fix, and those few still play those games, but everyone else has left due to many other issues, not due to the fact that it has PvP.
In a nutshell, you're using the time-old and over-used rationale of "PvP is hugely important to a lot of people and would be hugely successful. It's just that no one's done it right yet".
You realize that rationale goes back at least a decade? All these years later, all the new MMOs whose developers all tried some different spin on PvP... and none of them have "gotten it right" yet.
There has been iteration after iteration of PvP, in all kinds of combinations. Yet, no one's gotten it right.
The balancing is way off and that makes it "fail" to a crowd of players...
or it's "too open" which makes it "fail" to a crowd of players...
or it's "not open enough" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's not "full-loot" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it is "full-loot" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's "consensual only", which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's not consensual, which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there are too many safe zones, which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there are too few safe zones which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there's too harsh of consequence for PvP'ing, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or there aren't enough consequences, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too gear-dependent, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not "gear dependent enough", which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too restricted by factions, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not faction-based enough, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or there's not enough progression through PvP, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not "twitch-based" enough, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too "twitch-based" and feels like a glorified FPS, which makes it "fail" for another group...
... and on and on and on, and in any combination thereof.
For me, Lineage 2's PvP setup overall is my own "gold standard" of how PvP is properly set up. It's "fail" to many others for any variety of reasons.
No matter what approach developers have taken to PvP, no matter how much they tweak or modify or rebalance it, in MMO after MMO after MMO after MMO, a large portion of PvP'ers are never happy with anything they get, in any form, in any way, because it's not exactly the way *they* think it should be (see above list) and is, thus, "fail".
You provide a perfect example of that with your commentary about LoTRO. Bingo. Turbine didn't "get it right" for you because of how they set it up. They didn't "get it right" with others because you can't be an Orc invading The Shire. They didn't "get it right" with others for various other reasons. For still others, it's fine the way it is...
How the hell can a developer ever satisfy a large enough portion of PvP'ers to make it a viable or worthwhile feature for their MMO, when PvP'ers as a group can't even agree on what they want? Even if they set it up in a way that satisfied, say (just as an arbitrary number) 20% of the PvP player-base... that leaves 80% of the rest of them screaming "FAIL!"
Any discussion of "what good PvP" is, or what a "real PvPer" is invariably erupts into a battle-royale of epeen waving, posturing and insults being thrown around like confetti at a parade... so even discussing it is seldom ever constructive.
That said, I don't care if it's 10%, 30% or even 60% of the playerbase who would like PvP in whatever form they feel is "real PvP". It doesn't mean a PvE focused MMO must have it, or even should have it, if the game's design does not support or warrant it.
I will argue that FFXI would not have done as well as it has, for as long as it has, if they had PvP beyond Besieged, Ballista, etc. Why? Because the gameplay - like all FF games - is based around teamwork and cooperation against a common enemy; not direct competition against each other. Adding content where players are competing directly against each other - outside of the more sports-like options it has - would undermine a huge part of the game's design. I reckon FFXIV falls into the same category.
If you like PvP then by all means... find PvP... just look for it in a game that's designed to implement it... at least as properly and "non-fail" as you can find it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No matter what approach developers have taken to PvP, no matter how much they tweak or modify or rebalance it, in MMO after MMO after MMO after MMO, a large portion of PvP'ers are never happy with anything they get, in any form, in any way, because it's not exactly the way *they* think it should be (see above list) and is, thus, "fail".
You provide a perfect example of that with your commentary about LoTRO. Bingo. Turbine didn't "get it right" for you because of how they set it up.
How the hell can a developer ever satisfy a large enough portion of PvP'ers to make it a viable or worthwhile feature for their MMO, when PvP'ers as a group can't even agree on what they want?
That said, I don't care if it's 10%, 30% or even 60% of the playerbase who would like PvP in whatever form they feel is "real PvP". It doesn't mean a PvE focused MMO must have it, or even should have it, if the game's design does not support or warrant it.
I will argue that FFXI would not have done as well as it has, for as long as it has, if they had PvP beyond Besieged, Ballista, etc. Why? Because the gameplay - like all FF games - is based around teamwork and cooperation against a common enemy; not direct competition against each other. Adding content where players are competing directly against each other - outside of the more sports-like options it has - would undermine a huge part of the game's design. I reckon FFXIV falls into the same category.
If you like PvP then by all means... find PvP... just look for it in a game that's designed to implement it... at least as properly and "non-fail" as you can find it.
Goot points... That's why anymore, I take games for what they are. I have a list of my "requirements", though, they are loose requirements, because one thing I have learned is that no game will ever meet all of them to my complete satisfaction.
You take the good with the bad, and make the decision for yourself which game fits best with your requirements. This of course involves compromise. (For those of you who aren't married compromise means putting up with some things you don't like in order to enjoy the things you do).
But I guarantee that if someone is bouncing from game to game, with their list of stuff, and refuse to be satisfied unitl that entire list is met to their satisfaction, I can say with 100% confidence that person will never find an MMO they are happy with.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
yes leave it for the hardcore ffxi people, who get the huge gratifictation of going on a journey for 5 hours for 1 quest. Yes leave it to the hardcore ffxi who get that sense of accomplishment for camping a NM for hours on end. Yes leave it the hardcore ffxi people to wait in Jeanuo for a party for somthing slowly realizing that the most populated realm only has a max of 2000 people on a good day. Guess people got bored of all the b/s.
And from that video I want to quote this part most:
---
""I am an adventurer of Vana'Diel", She said.
Of course. I am one too, I thought.
However, her idea of an "adventurer" and mine were very different.
[Valkurm was fun. We didn't know our left from our right, thinking together we found the
way.]
[But then we went to Jeuno, doing the same thing everyday. We didn't have any spare
time.]
[Because I got teleports, I thought we could all travel the world. But everyone was
caught up with leveling...]
[I wanted to see more of the world. There has to be places we have yet to discover. I
thought it would be good if we could share that together]
[I still remember when we saw that rainbow in La Theine, I wanted to expierence that
again, with everyone...]
When I heard this I was shocked.
I was touched when we first got to Jeuno.
But after that, did finding a new place matter to me?
When I first came to a place, I just thought of it as a new hunting ground.
The stone monuments, which detail the history of each area, was just a means to finish
the quest for the Crawler's Nest map.
When did I forget what being an adventurer meant?"
---
Exploiring the world together, seeing it as an adventure.
A lot of players of today don't want an mmoRPG, they just want a MMOG, with quick combat, quick rewards. Story they don't read, the just want the reward.
Well for me the reward is the fun I have with the people while doing it, and enjoying the story SE has written for us.
This is something not everyone will like, and there is nothing wrong with that fact, but please, let people who do enjoy it have their fun and look for a game were you can have the things you like. Then everyone is happy.
Why must all the MMORPG's have the same concept?
Both me and my g/f played mmorpg's for along time.
after watching this vid i cryed i had to show it to my g/f even tho she was at work, she cryed also. we both love exploring new places yet the lvling always got to us. the mentality of getting high enouth lvl to get place's was always our hold back from feeling the enjoyment of our first instance, the feeling it was. lol god i feel like a sap XD
FFXI Ballista was a lot of fun when I played. My Taru Blm was a terror, My Mithra War/Thf was hella fun to thunk people with Gax. Nothing beats the feeling when you hit a Galka monk with 4 Gax crits in a row and watch the entire enemy team running for their lives or shouting kill the fing mithra as I get burned to death by their ranged attackers.
The lack of bland class balancing is what made PvP in ffxi fun. If get cought by a Ninja I'm dead....peroiod. If I get nuked by a well geared Black mage it gonna be a bad day. If I get rushed by a Monk in the beginning......U get the point, Classes have their strong points that's what made it fun and exciting.
There was plenty of PVP on Garuda almost all the time, Don't know where all these pvp where posta are comming from.
Comments
PvP is a major part for most MMO's out there today. Upon launch they won't have it implimented I'm sure. But you can only kill NPC's forever, ppl wanna kill other ppl! So in the future they will most likely implement some form of PvP.
I definitely would want PvP, but FFXI being my first MMO, I really don't expect it. I don't see the problem in adding some thing like WoW's battlegrounds. If I remember correctly, Ballista happened every once in a while. I definitely didn't like that. It would be nice to PvP whenever you want. The game doesn't need world pvp, but instanced PvP would be fine.
Regardless, I think I'll check it out, just for old times sake.
hahaha, somebody give this guy a medal.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Wow this is still going on! I'm impressed.
In a nutshell, you're using the time-old and over-used rationale of "PvP is hugely important to a lot of people and would be hugely successful. It's just that no one's done it right yet".
You realize that rationale goes back at least a decade? All these years later, all the new MMOs whose developers all tried some different spin on PvP... and none of them have "gotten it right" yet.
There has been iteration after iteration of PvP, in all kinds of combinations. Yet, no one's gotten it right.
The balancing is way off and that makes it "fail" to a crowd of players...
or it's "too open" which makes it "fail" to a crowd of players...
or it's "not open enough" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's not "full-loot" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it is "full-loot" which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's "consensual only", which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or it's not consensual, which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there are too many safe zones, which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there are too few safe zones which makes it "fail" for another group of players...
or there's too harsh of consequence for PvP'ing, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or there aren't enough consequences, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too gear-dependent, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not "gear dependent enough", which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too restricted by factions, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not faction-based enough, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or there's not enough progression through PvP, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's not "twitch-based" enough, which makes it "fail" for another group...
or it's too "twitch-based" and feels like a glorified FPS, which makes it "fail" for another group...
... and on and on and on, and in any combination thereof.
For me, Lineage 2's PvP setup overall is my own "gold standard" of how PvP is properly set up. It's "fail" to many others for any variety of reasons.
No matter what approach developers have taken to PvP, no matter how much they tweak or modify or rebalance it, in MMO after MMO after MMO after MMO, a large portion of PvP'ers are never happy with anything they get, in any form, in any way, because it's not exactly the way *they* think it should be (see above list) and is, thus, "fail".
You provide a perfect example of that with your commentary about LoTRO. Bingo. Turbine didn't "get it right" for you because of how they set it up. They didn't "get it right" with others because you can't be an Orc invading The Shire. They didn't "get it right" with others for various other reasons. For still others, it's fine the way it is...
How the hell can a developer ever satisfy a large enough portion of PvP'ers to make it a viable or worthwhile feature for their MMO, when PvP'ers as a group can't even agree on what they want? Even if they set it up in a way that satisfied, say (just as an arbitrary number) 20% of the PvP player-base... that leaves 80% of the rest of them screaming "FAIL!"
Any discussion of "what good PvP" is, or what a "real PvPer" is invariably erupts into a battle-royale of epeen waving, posturing and insults being thrown around like confetti at a parade... so even discussing it is seldom ever constructive.
That said, I don't care if it's 10%, 30% or even 60% of the playerbase who would like PvP in whatever form they feel is "real PvP". It doesn't mean a PvE focused MMO must have it, or even should have it, if the game's design does not support or warrant it.
I will argue that FFXI would not have done as well as it has, for as long as it has, if they had PvP beyond Besieged, Ballista, etc. Why? Because the gameplay - like all FF games - is based around teamwork and cooperation against a common enemy; not direct competition against each other. Adding content where players are competing directly against each other - outside of the more sports-like options it has - would undermine a huge part of the game's design. I reckon FFXIV falls into the same category.
If you like PvP then by all means... find PvP... just look for it in a game that's designed to implement it... at least as properly and "non-fail" as you can find it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Goot points... That's why anymore, I take games for what they are. I have a list of my "requirements", though, they are loose requirements, because one thing I have learned is that no game will ever meet all of them to my complete satisfaction.
You take the good with the bad, and make the decision for yourself which game fits best with your requirements. This of course involves compromise. (For those of you who aren't married compromise means putting up with some things you don't like in order to enjoy the things you do).
But I guarantee that if someone is bouncing from game to game, with their list of stuff, and refuse to be satisfied unitl that entire list is met to their satisfaction, I can say with 100% confidence that person will never find an MMO they are happy with.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Both me and my g/f played mmorpg's for along time.
after watching this vid i cryed i had to show it to my g/f even tho she was at work, she cryed also. we both love exploring new places yet the lvling always got to us. the mentality of getting high enouth lvl to get place's was always our hold back from feeling the enjoyment of our first instance, the feeling it was. lol god i feel like a sap XD
What would have been wrong with adding duel for players who wanted a friendly skirmish with their friends?
FFXI Ballista was a lot of fun when I played. My Taru Blm was a terror, My Mithra War/Thf was hella fun to thunk people with Gax. Nothing beats the feeling when you hit a Galka monk with 4 Gax crits in a row and watch the entire enemy team running for their lives or shouting kill the fing mithra as I get burned to death by their ranged attackers.
The lack of bland class balancing is what made PvP in ffxi fun. If get cought by a Ninja I'm dead....peroiod. If I get nuked by a well geared Black mage it gonna be a bad day. If I get rushed by a Monk in the beginning......U get the point, Classes have their strong points that's what made it fun and exciting.
There was plenty of PVP on Garuda almost all the time, Don't know where all these pvp where posta are comming from.