honestly you do not need a jump function T_T. it servers no real purpose and it looks kinda corny. HOWEVER it is important that when you execute some skills as a blader that you do jump around and attack and slash and what not. I find this every imporatnat. I dont want my warrior stationary as i use a skill. I want the skill to be really amazing. him flying around the enemy and what not just attcking. like in final fnatasy 7 where cloud is just destroying sephiroth. im not sure if this makes any sense to some people. But if u know about the game silkroad, there was no random jumping, but when u exectued a blader skill most times the skill had jumping in it while my charater was attacking.
Pvp game= jumping needed.
Pve game= jumping not needed.
The most sound argument Ive come across yet....
My one concern , and this may be a reflection of my never having played a FF game since super nintendo, is that the inability to jump implies an extremely limited world and a distinctly linear path through that world. Exploration would be impeded ,and ,as has already been mentioned numerous times, a general sense of freedom (something sacred to me in mmo's ) diminished.
honestly you do not need a jump function T_T. it servers no real purpose and it looks kinda corny. HOWEVER it is important that when you execute some skills as a blader that you do jump around and attack and slash and what not. I find this every imporatnat. I dont want my warrior stationary as i use a skill. I want the skill to be really amazing. him flying around the enemy and what not just attcking. like in final fnatasy 7 where cloud is just destroying sephiroth. im not sure if this makes any sense to some people. But if u know about the game silkroad, there was no random jumping, but when u exectued a blader skill most times the skill had jumping in it while my charater was attacking.
I really think it does. No one like to get stopped in there tracks by some tiny object on the ground.
I understand the fanboyism but if you don't let the Dev's hear your concerns then things will never get corrected.
Just because someone objects to something in the game does not mean they are a hater, If anything those are the people that get things corrected and make the game better that would otherwise be ignored by the dev's.
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My one concern , and this may be a reflection of my never having played a FF game since super nintendo, is that the inability to jump implies an extremely limited world and a distinctly linear path through that world. Exploration would be impeded ,and ,as has already been mentioned numerous times, a general sense of freedom (something sacred to me in mmo's ) diminished.
There'll be more than enough exploration in the end product, I assure you..
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
My one concern , and this may be a reflection of my never having played a FF game since super nintendo, is that the inability to jump implies an extremely limited world and a distinctly linear path through that world. Exploration would be impeded ,and ,as has already been mentioned numerous times, a general sense of freedom (something sacred to me in mmo's ) diminished.
There'll be more than enough exploration in the end product, I assure you..
Oh most definitely, I've put a good 4 yrs into FFXI and still havn't seen or been everywhere!
I don't doubt for a moment that FFXIV will be any different with the amount of things to do and places to explore. And one thing I greatly look forward too is everything from the beginning to the cap being viable and recycled as well as FFXI currently does it. Nor do items, zones, NMs, etc becomes overshadowed and obsolete in Vana'diel with updates...its all frequently reused in interesting new ways or NPCs that had little to say in the past are now a huge part of the new story and missions.
I dunno I dont think a "jump feature" is necessary in an MMO tho I do sort of use it as a measure of a game's truth of 3D because of what it means.
Basically if you're bound to the ground plane constantly in a game it obviously leaves out a lot of other things possible in many other games, such as: Swimming, climbing, flying, the ability to jump around obstacles, ect...
Safe to say none of these items will be included in FFXIV and that's kinda of okay really it just means less realism is added in the respect that there isn't a true connection to the game for some of us due to this lack of Z movement.
I'm sure it'll still be enjoyable.. But as I said binding our character to a x.y movement on a single plane severely limits what they can do elsewhere.
So it's not so much the jumping that they leave out but the ability to go beyond a single plane. Makes the game more 2 demensional
If you dont aggree that;'s fine, forums are afterall mostly opinion, and this is mine.
Jumping is such an easy feature to implement, I don't know why they wouldn't implement it even if it serves no purpose.
To be honest, if I can't jump in a free roaming game, I feel limited.
Look at other MMOs that have jumping... it's rarely ever necessary to jump but they still have it, as they should.
But if they add jumping then they have to worry about people getting stuck and getting places they shouldn't be adds alot more to think about in that way.
Jumping is such an easy feature to implement, I don't know why they wouldn't implement it even if it serves no purpose.
To be honest, if I can't jump in a free roaming game, I feel limited.
Look at other MMOs that have jumping... it's rarely ever necessary to jump but they still have it, as they should.
But if they add jumping then they have to worry about people getting stuck and getting places they shouldn't be adds alot more to think about in that way.
You have to worry about that either way, so this line of thinking is kind of silly. You will play-test for map irregardless of what abilities your characters possess, except maybe full flight.
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I dunno I dont think a "jump feature" is necessary in an MMO tho I do sort of use it as a measure of a game's truth of 3D because of what it means.
Basically if you're bound to the ground plane constantly in a game it obviously leaves out a lot of other things possible in many other games, such as: Swimming, climbing, flying, the ability to jump around obstacles, ect...
Safe to say none of these items will be included in FFXIV and that's kinda of okay really it just means less realism is added in the respect that there isn't a true connection to the game for some of us due to this lack of Z movement.
I'm sure it'll still be enjoyable.. But as I said binding our character to a x.y movement on a single plane severely limits what they can do elsewhere.
So it's not so much the jumping that they leave out but the ability to go beyond a single plane. Makes the game more 2 demensional
If you dont aggree that;'s fine, forums are afterall mostly opinion, and this is mine.
I wouldn't assume that those features won't exist, or that it won't feel like a truly 3D world just because there won't be a jump function. Technically the 3D Zelda games didn't have a dedicated jump button, but you could still jump off ledges or over small gaps, climb, swim, etc. The 3D console Final Fantasy games had something similar to this. They could easily include such abilities in FFXIV with the existing game engine without adding the ability to jump at unnecessary times (which I believe is what most of the people arguing for jumping really are asking for - jumping with the space bar).
I dont understand why so many people dont thinnk the jump function is important. If the characters are permenantly tethered to the game you might as well be playing a 2d game. On a bridge and can't go across or back ... and can't jump off either ?? Not having a jump is a deal breaker for me, and alot of other gamers. I cannot attain the immersion I require to enjoy a game if it doesn't feel like a true 3D game... I just don't feel like a free character in an open world.
SWG had no jump and I couldn't hang with it... it totally ruined the experience for me and I am a HUGE star wars fan. I think it flattens the game and I don't like it... but to each their own. If you can get past it fine, but don't dispairage those of us who can't... I mean after all its our perrogative to play the game or not. And no jump function means I will not.
I dont understand why so many people dont thinnk the jump function is important. If the characters are permenantly tethered to the game you might as well be playing a 2d game. On a bridge and can't go across or back ... and can't jump off either ?? Not having a jump is a deal breaker for me, and alot of other gamers. I cannot attain the immersion I require to enjoy a game if it doesn't feel like a true 3D game... I just don't feel like a free character in an open world.
SWG had no jump and I couldn't hang with it... it totally ruined the experience for me and I am a HUGE star wars fan. I think it flattens the game and I don't like it... but to each their own. If you can get past it fine, but don't dispairage those of us who can't... I mean after all its our perrogative to play the game or not. And no jump function means I will not.
It is indeed your choice on whether or not you play the game, but to me it seems like you're being melodramatic here. Did you not enjoy any of the 3D final fantasies (or most RPGs ever made, for that matter) because they had no jump function? It's still quite possible to immerse the player in a world without having that option (I mean, it's not that common for us to hop around on things that we can't otherwise climb on in reality anyway). I don't understand what you're talking about with your one-way bridge analogy either, I'm afraid. There is a world of difference between a 2D game and a 3D game that lacks on-demand jumping.
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
Of course no one is going to change anyones opinion on this subject. Ever! You either like it, dont like it, or dont care either way. So look at the mmo in question if you cant stand no jumping maybe its best you move on to a different MMO. Hit the devs where it hurts them, dont buy their products. You buy it, you support their decisions. In all actuality there will be but a very very small number of people who dont buy this game because of jumping, so this topic is just all drama.
On a side note about, saying how lazy the devs are for not putting jumping in, all I have to say about that is, I think the devs of 99% of other mmo's who put a jump system in are the lazy ones for putting a half assed jump system in their game that can be abused with ease. A good solid jump feature would take alot of time and effort which equates to a lot of money. A lot of money means priorities, where do you want a games priorities to be? Contrary to what most people think games dont have unlimited budgets.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I dont understand why so many people dont thinnk the jump function is important. If the characters are permenantly tethered to the game you might as well be playing a 2d game. On a bridge and can't go across or back ... and can't jump off either ?? Not having a jump is a deal breaker for me, and alot of other gamers. I cannot attain the immersion I require to enjoy a game if it doesn't feel like a true 3D game... I just don't feel like a free character in an open world.
SWG had no jump and I couldn't hang with it... it totally ruined the experience for me and I am a HUGE star wars fan. I think it flattens the game and I don't like it... but to each their own. If you can get past it fine, but don't dispairage those of us who can't... I mean after all its our perrogative to play the game or not. And no jump function means I will not.
It is indeed your choice on whether or not you play the game, but to me it seems like you're being melodramatic here. Did you not enjoy any of the 3D final fantasies (or most RPGs ever made, for that matter) because they had no jump function? It's still quite possible to immerse the player in a world without having that option (I mean, it's not that common for us to hop around on things that we can't otherwise climb on in reality anyway). I don't understand what you're talking about with your one-way bridge analogy either, I'm afraid. There is a world of difference between a 2D game and a 3D game that lacks on-demand jumping.
The bridge example is not an analogy.. it is a situatuion i encountered in SWG .... I was stuck in the middle of the bridge between Mobs and Rebel scum trying to kill me... and had i been able to jump off the bridge into the water below... I would have had an escape. Alas I could not I could only stand at the edge and wish... but its all personal choice like I said. Or imagine being on a catwalk that has a 2 foot gap in it... you KNOW your character (or even yourself) could phisically jump those two feet to continue down the catwalk... however because X game doesnt have a jump function you got to turn around and find another way to your destination.
Also, as I mentioned it is a deal breaker for me. And no I did not enjoy most of the MMO's I tried to play that had no jump feature either ... and there are a few of them but more of the ones I played did in fact have a jump... EQ 1 and 2, WoW, Warhammer Online, AO, STO, LOTRO, Tabula rasa, DAoC ...
In fact I can readily come up with many more MMO titles that DO have jump keys than ones that don't (FFXI and SWG being the only two I can actually say I have played) and don't say UO because thats a 2D game. And also I am only speaking for MMOs here not single player RPGs I have had alot of fun with some titles with no jump like neverwinter nights and baldurs gate series' ... but again those are distinctly 2d games... 3d objects on a 2d mat.
For me personally (again I am not attacking anyones ideas or opinions just stating how I feel on the matter) removing a characters ability to jump over obstacles or off of structures or cliffs or whatever, makes the game feel 2D... just 3D characters running around on a 2D map with 3D structures on it... You lose the sense that the world has a z axis and that gravity holds your character to the planet. I lose the sense that my toon can go anywhere I want him to go. Instead it makes me feel like I am on a predetermined path and seperate from 'restricted' areas of the world . It makes the world feel less real to me, and that is an important part of my gameplay experience ... don't worry about it... you won't have to suffer my company in the game. I hope you enjoy it, its just not for me.
I dont understand why so many people dont thinnk the jump function is important. If the characters are permenantly tethered to the game you might as well be playing a 2d game. On a bridge and can't go across or back ... and can't jump off either ?? Not having a jump is a deal breaker for me, and alot of other gamers. I cannot attain the immersion I require to enjoy a game if it doesn't feel like a true 3D game... I just don't feel like a free character in an open world.
SWG had no jump and I couldn't hang with it... it totally ruined the experience for me and I am a HUGE star wars fan. I think it flattens the game and I don't like it... but to each their own. If you can get past it fine, but don't dispairage those of us who can't... I mean after all its our perrogative to play the game or not. And no jump function means I will not.
THis is also a goood summation of what I was talking about. freedom and problems with immersion.
As somone who quote my post mentioned some games have "controlled" jump features or other abilities that include not being tethered to a single plane of existence such as flying on mounts or whatever. Simple fact is while these may still be impossible they won't be anything like what they could with total freedom of movement.
I dont honestly think it'll keep me away from FFXIV but people tend to think a jump command is such a superficial thing when in reality it brings with it a slew of game functionality and purpose. Yes jump by itself IS superficial, but the abilities it allows are far more important.
Put simply if you can't leave the ground plane for a split moment simply by pressing spacebar or some other key, how could you expect to ever leave it. Most games these days sport flying mounts or the ability for your character to fly (this isn't just a WoW and Aion thing) or the ability to swim in water (which FFXI never had) . How can we expect to be able to do this if a simple jump is considered unimportant? If we're to be constantly tethered? I feel SE moves to severely limit their game due to this lack of Y momvement and the advanced features of other games therein WILL in fact limit their playerbase.
MMO's are afterall all about freedom, freedom of movement is just as important as freedom of your character's path.
I dont honestly think it'll keep me away from FFXIV but people tend to think a jump command is such a superficial thing when in reality it brings with it a slew of game functionality and purpose. Yes jump by itself IS superficial, but the abilities it allows are far more important.
I agree with you but you fail to see the other side of the token, and that is all the negatives that jumping brings. Its like a balance scale do those negatives outweigh the positives? As these types of threads have shown the negatives outweigh the positives, for a lot of people. Ya I am sure a perfect jump system is possible, but wish in on hand and crap in the other hand and see which one fills up faster. I dont think you would find a person who would be against a perfect jumping system, people are just mainly against all the negatives that a half assed jumping system brings. Like I hinted at earlier no company is going to spend a large amount of cash on perfecting a jumping system.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
see in your arrogance you fail to see other problems that jumping brings besides the bunny hop. No need to rehash all them again re-read the thread and youll see many other problems jumping brings.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
see in your arrogance you fail to see other problems that jumping brings besides the bunny hop. No need to rehash all them again re-read the thread and youll see many other problems jumping brings.
By "other problems" I'm going to assume that you mean getting stuck?
Uhm.. FFXI had no jump feature and it was STILL possible to get stuck, hence the unstuck command in the game.
So if that's your only ammo vs. jumping cons along with the bunny hop, then I'm sorry but it's not really a valid argument.
Jumping to your doom can't really be a problem as it's your own fault, and easily handled by whatever death system they intend to use (retrieving your corpse I assume) other than that I didn't really see too much more of the negatives you're talking about other than most people saying it's not necessary because jump is superficial.
Honestly the pros of jumping and the advanced features it could bring to the game in fact far outweigh the possible cons such as getting stuck, unable to retrieve a corpse, hunny hopping, ect.. as these are all very easy fixes.
What boggles my brain is the concept of controlled jumping or Z movement. where as SE would rather eliminate the possability of free Z movement and go through greater exertions to code specific moments in the game to allow controlled Z movmenet in a game that will overwise not allow it is beyond me.
Z movement = a simpler easier way to enable total freedom in the game
Specifically coding controled Z movement = so much more work for them that it's boggling to me WHY they dont just take the easier route.
EDIT: Lol just realized I was referring to Z momvement (up and down) as Y movement (Forward and back or Left and right) really it doesn't matter what you label either as but for consistency and rpevious post referring to Y momvement should be seen as Z movement (Up and down movement on a 3 demensional axis)
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
see in your arrogance you fail to see other problems that jumping brings besides the bunny hop. No need to rehash all them again re-read the thread and youll see many other problems jumping brings.
Ok I've been watching this thread for a while and now went back to get some reasons why peoples say it shouldn't be jumping.
Bunny hopping
Jump consumes stamina and there it's fixed
Jumping really doesn't belong in FFXIV, since it didn't exist in the first FFXI mmo
Is this really a reason? Plus FFXI is 8 years old. Things evolve.
Because there is no need for a jump feature.
Even though many peoples state the reasons why it's needed?
it's so unrealistic. You can't jump with an armor.
Ok then what about leather and cloth. Let's make the plate guy walk slower too. Realism in a game where the clue is in the tittle?
because the game isn't wow! Wow invented jumping and every game that uses it is an wow clone I guess
Now the only reason stated that may make a bit of sense is that it takes time and that time should be used in other things. I would expect such thinking from a low budgeted indie company not from a such powerful one as SE. They shouldn't need to choose between this or that.
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
see in your arrogance you fail to see other problems that jumping brings besides the bunny hop. No need to rehash all them again re-read the thread and youll see many other problems jumping brings.
By "other problems" I'm going to assume that you mean getting stuck?
Honestly the pros of jumping and the advanced features it could bring to the game in fact far outweigh the possible cons such as getting stuck, unable to retrieve a corpse, hunny hopping, ect.. as these are all very easy fixes.
See this is what I was talking about people dont fully understand why a majority of the anti jumpers dont want jumping. People have said in this thread numerous times the many problems that jumping brings, to refresh your memory some, mob exploits, map exploits, exploits in general, stuck, falling through map, bunny hops theres a whole slew of them, some minor and some major. Some of you guys think you have the perfect solution but things are more complicated than just implementing some feature, sure some are good ideas on paper, but they may not jive with the game as a whole. I would'nt mind a well thought out/programmed jumping system, but if it means that they have to sacrifice some other important feature like client stablility, core gameplay, content of the mmo to work on a jumping system, uhh for me just leave it out. And a well planned jumping system would take a lot of resources to implement. Thinking otherwise is ignorant.
Lack of jumping is not a gamebreaking feature for the majority of mmo'ers, client problems, core gameplay, and broken content are gamebreaking. When an mmo launches you dont see rage quit posts over jumping, if we see a lot of jumping posts when ffxiv launches, I may soften up on my stance a little. Now no game will launch flawlessly but haveing to waste time, and money patching less important issues like jumping exploits, and pvp balance is a never ending task, time and money should be spent on more important issues. Thankfully FFXIV wont have to worry about patching jumping and PvP balance.
For some those negatives that jumping bring are enough to say just leave jumping out, and based on the number of jumping threads across any forum id say its about 50-50. For you and others the pro's may outweigh the cons but for some the cons outweigh the pros. So try to understand that the world does not revolve around the pro-jumpers.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
"See this is what I was talking about people dont fully understand why a majority of the anti jumpers dont want jumping. People have said in this thread numerous times the many problems that jumping brings, to refresh your memory some, mob exploits, map exploits, exploits in general, stuck, falling through map, bunny hops theres a whole slew of them, some minor and some major."
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues. I had a ton of problems in FFXI getting stuck and hung up sometimes around no visable terrain obstacles just due to those annoying border barriers around anything that was remotely visual (cliff faces, tree clusters, path edges etc...) . There was no jump in that game and the problem still existed.
And most of these issues are related to faulty terrain design and poor physics... the fact they couldnt get their jump function to work properly is a by product of this. Finally like I said earlier.... MANY more MMOs have jump than don't, and those games weren't ruined for it...
I am not knocking the FF dev team, I am sure there are any number of reasons they decided for their game the jump function was unecessary ... but I doubt it had anything to do with the litany of silly reasons listed here. It was probably more along the lines of ... lets vamp up our old FFXI engine instead of designing a whole new one, cause that is what we'd have to do to add a jump feature ... seeing as our world atm has no true gravity or point location built into the physics engine...
Frankly... judging from your signature I am guessing your opinion on this matter is slightly jaded... as mine is for playing about 25 MMOs that have a jump function... in almost every case ... an effective, useful, endearing (i.e. EQ1 barrel rolling dorfs, or WoWs flipping NEs), ammusing, and NON GAME BREAKING feature. The exception being Star Trek Online...their jump sucked ... never been stuck in mid aire in a jump before ...
I just think those boys at Cryptic could f*@! up an orgasm.
Anyway I think FFXIV will be a great game, all the folks who lovedd FFXI are gonna love it, and I am sure I will play it, as I tend to play all the big MMO releases come hell or high water. But the no jump thing is gonna drive me crazy again and I will probably see this game make its way to the graveyard of my attic before my free month is up. I don't mean to offend anyone by this... its my nuerosis and I alone have to suffer with it! Thanks for the debate I really couldnt add anything else to this one!
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
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Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
Can you please cite examples from MMO testing?
I think the difference in terrain and physics design between platform games and PC based MMOs is quite different. I can't think of one instance in ALL the MMOs I have played where a jump related exploit or bug has been a "game breaking" isuue. But then... my memory aint what it used to be. So please ... enlighten me?
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
Can you please cite examples from MMO testing?
I think the difference in terrain and physics design between platform games and PC based MMOs is quite different. I can't think of one instance in ALL the MMOs I have played where a jump related exploit or bug has been a "game breaking" isuue. But then... my memory aint what it used to be. So please ... enlighten me?
There is no difference, and I could bring up instances from AoC where you could kill things from unreachable geometry, but their answer was making mobs reset their patrols with full health the moment they lose LoS with you (even on the ground turning a corner at times, which sucks). There were also lots of places to get stuck in the geometry along the roofs of the Noble District and Kheshatta, and they ended up making a large plane you can walk on that visually hovers over that geometry.
There is also a pretty good "the noob" comic strip where a high-level dude is perched on a rock killing trolls that can't see him in order to fight back, so he just grinds endlessly on it. That alone should state it's happened before, and I'm not gonna dig it up for your sake.
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The most sound argument Ive come across yet....
My one concern , and this may be a reflection of my never having played a FF game since super nintendo, is that the inability to jump implies an extremely limited world and a distinctly linear path through that world. Exploration would be impeded ,and ,as has already been mentioned numerous times, a general sense of freedom (something sacred to me in mmo's ) diminished.
You do realize tha bunnyhopping doesn't work in most MMORPGs right?
Hell, it doesn't even work in most FPS games either.
I really think it does. No one like to get stopped in there tracks by some tiny object on the ground.
I understand the fanboyism but if you don't let the Dev's hear your concerns then things will never get corrected.
Just because someone objects to something in the game does not mean they are a hater, If anything those are the people that get things corrected and make the game better that would otherwise be ignored by the dev's.
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There'll be more than enough exploration in the end product, I assure you..
Oh most definitely, I've put a good 4 yrs into FFXI and still havn't seen or been everywhere!
I don't doubt for a moment that FFXIV will be any different with the amount of things to do and places to explore. And one thing I greatly look forward too is everything from the beginning to the cap being viable and recycled as well as FFXI currently does it. Nor do items, zones, NMs, etc becomes overshadowed and obsolete in Vana'diel with updates...its all frequently reused in interesting new ways or NPCs that had little to say in the past are now a huge part of the new story and missions.
I dunno I dont think a "jump feature" is necessary in an MMO tho I do sort of use it as a measure of a game's truth of 3D because of what it means.
Basically if you're bound to the ground plane constantly in a game it obviously leaves out a lot of other things possible in many other games, such as: Swimming, climbing, flying, the ability to jump around obstacles, ect...
Safe to say none of these items will be included in FFXIV and that's kinda of okay really it just means less realism is added in the respect that there isn't a true connection to the game for some of us due to this lack of Z movement.
I'm sure it'll still be enjoyable.. But as I said binding our character to a x.y movement on a single plane severely limits what they can do elsewhere.
So it's not so much the jumping that they leave out but the ability to go beyond a single plane. Makes the game more 2 demensional
If you dont aggree that;'s fine, forums are afterall mostly opinion, and this is mine.
Some should create a game called World of Mariocraft so they can jump to their ends delight.
::play mario theme song::
But if they add jumping then they have to worry about people getting stuck and getting places they shouldn't be adds alot more to think about in that way.
You have to worry about that either way, so this line of thinking is kind of silly. You will play-test for map irregardless of what abilities your characters possess, except maybe full flight.
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I wouldn't assume that those features won't exist, or that it won't feel like a truly 3D world just because there won't be a jump function. Technically the 3D Zelda games didn't have a dedicated jump button, but you could still jump off ledges or over small gaps, climb, swim, etc. The 3D console Final Fantasy games had something similar to this. They could easily include such abilities in FFXIV with the existing game engine without adding the ability to jump at unnecessary times (which I believe is what most of the people arguing for jumping really are asking for - jumping with the space bar).
I dont understand why so many people dont thinnk the jump function is important. If the characters are permenantly tethered to the game you might as well be playing a 2d game. On a bridge and can't go across or back ... and can't jump off either ?? Not having a jump is a deal breaker for me, and alot of other gamers. I cannot attain the immersion I require to enjoy a game if it doesn't feel like a true 3D game... I just don't feel like a free character in an open world.
SWG had no jump and I couldn't hang with it... it totally ruined the experience for me and I am a HUGE star wars fan. I think it flattens the game and I don't like it... but to each their own. If you can get past it fine, but don't dispairage those of us who can't... I mean after all its our perrogative to play the game or not. And no jump function means I will not.
It is indeed your choice on whether or not you play the game, but to me it seems like you're being melodramatic here. Did you not enjoy any of the 3D final fantasies (or most RPGs ever made, for that matter) because they had no jump function? It's still quite possible to immerse the player in a world without having that option (I mean, it's not that common for us to hop around on things that we can't otherwise climb on in reality anyway). I don't understand what you're talking about with your one-way bridge analogy either, I'm afraid. There is a world of difference between a 2D game and a 3D game that lacks on-demand jumping.
Both sides have valid arguments when it comes to jumping. I understand that some people find it annoying being forced to stay on the ground. Just like I am sure that some people can understand that the abuse of the jump function has led many gamers not minding it being left out or even wanting it left out. If a person cant understand where the other side is coming from you shouldnt even be posting, because you have to understand what the other side is all about to have a real discussion.
Of course no one is going to change anyones opinion on this subject. Ever! You either like it, dont like it, or dont care either way. So look at the mmo in question if you cant stand no jumping maybe its best you move on to a different MMO. Hit the devs where it hurts them, dont buy their products. You buy it, you support their decisions. In all actuality there will be but a very very small number of people who dont buy this game because of jumping, so this topic is just all drama.
On a side note about, saying how lazy the devs are for not putting jumping in, all I have to say about that is, I think the devs of 99% of other mmo's who put a jump system in are the lazy ones for putting a half assed jump system in their game that can be abused with ease. A good solid jump feature would take alot of time and effort which equates to a lot of money. A lot of money means priorities, where do you want a games priorities to be? Contrary to what most people think games dont have unlimited budgets.
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The bridge example is not an analogy.. it is a situatuion i encountered in SWG .... I was stuck in the middle of the bridge between Mobs and Rebel scum trying to kill me... and had i been able to jump off the bridge into the water below... I would have had an escape. Alas I could not I could only stand at the edge and wish... but its all personal choice like I said. Or imagine being on a catwalk that has a 2 foot gap in it... you KNOW your character (or even yourself) could phisically jump those two feet to continue down the catwalk... however because X game doesnt have a jump function you got to turn around and find another way to your destination.
Also, as I mentioned it is a deal breaker for me. And no I did not enjoy most of the MMO's I tried to play that had no jump feature either ... and there are a few of them but more of the ones I played did in fact have a jump... EQ 1 and 2, WoW, Warhammer Online, AO, STO, LOTRO, Tabula rasa, DAoC ...
In fact I can readily come up with many more MMO titles that DO have jump keys than ones that don't (FFXI and SWG being the only two I can actually say I have played) and don't say UO because thats a 2D game. And also I am only speaking for MMOs here not single player RPGs I have had alot of fun with some titles with no jump like neverwinter nights and baldurs gate series' ... but again those are distinctly 2d games... 3d objects on a 2d mat.
For me personally (again I am not attacking anyones ideas or opinions just stating how I feel on the matter) removing a characters ability to jump over obstacles or off of structures or cliffs or whatever, makes the game feel 2D... just 3D characters running around on a 2D map with 3D structures on it... You lose the sense that the world has a z axis and that gravity holds your character to the planet. I lose the sense that my toon can go anywhere I want him to go. Instead it makes me feel like I am on a predetermined path and seperate from 'restricted' areas of the world . It makes the world feel less real to me, and that is an important part of my gameplay experience ... don't worry about it... you won't have to suffer my company in the game. I hope you enjoy it, its just not for me.
THis is also a goood summation of what I was talking about. freedom and problems with immersion.
As somone who quote my post mentioned some games have "controlled" jump features or other abilities that include not being tethered to a single plane of existence such as flying on mounts or whatever. Simple fact is while these may still be impossible they won't be anything like what they could with total freedom of movement.
I dont honestly think it'll keep me away from FFXIV but people tend to think a jump command is such a superficial thing when in reality it brings with it a slew of game functionality and purpose. Yes jump by itself IS superficial, but the abilities it allows are far more important.
Put simply if you can't leave the ground plane for a split moment simply by pressing spacebar or some other key, how could you expect to ever leave it. Most games these days sport flying mounts or the ability for your character to fly (this isn't just a WoW and Aion thing) or the ability to swim in water (which FFXI never had) . How can we expect to be able to do this if a simple jump is considered unimportant? If we're to be constantly tethered? I feel SE moves to severely limit their game due to this lack of Y momvement and the advanced features of other games therein WILL in fact limit their playerbase.
MMO's are afterall all about freedom, freedom of movement is just as important as freedom of your character's path.
I agree with you but you fail to see the other side of the token, and that is all the negatives that jumping brings. Its like a balance scale do those negatives outweigh the positives? As these types of threads have shown the negatives outweigh the positives, for a lot of people. Ya I am sure a perfect jump system is possible, but wish in on hand and crap in the other hand and see which one fills up faster. I dont think you would find a person who would be against a perfect jumping system, people are just mainly against all the negatives that a half assed jumping system brings. Like I hinted at earlier no company is going to spend a large amount of cash on perfecting a jumping system.
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So in the one side the reason why it's important is because the world is not flat, gives more control to the character thus making it more immersive and in the other side, it's not needed because some peoples get bothered from bunny hopping? Hm not quite equal the reasons. You can make jump to consume stamina so peoples don't abuse it and there ya go. One side is fixed.
see in your arrogance you fail to see other problems that jumping brings besides the bunny hop. No need to rehash all them again re-read the thread and youll see many other problems jumping brings.
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By "other problems" I'm going to assume that you mean getting stuck?
Uhm.. FFXI had no jump feature and it was STILL possible to get stuck, hence the unstuck command in the game.
So if that's your only ammo vs. jumping cons along with the bunny hop, then I'm sorry but it's not really a valid argument.
Jumping to your doom can't really be a problem as it's your own fault, and easily handled by whatever death system they intend to use (retrieving your corpse I assume) other than that I didn't really see too much more of the negatives you're talking about other than most people saying it's not necessary because jump is superficial.
Honestly the pros of jumping and the advanced features it could bring to the game in fact far outweigh the possible cons such as getting stuck, unable to retrieve a corpse, hunny hopping, ect.. as these are all very easy fixes.
What boggles my brain is the concept of controlled jumping or Z movement. where as SE would rather eliminate the possability of free Z movement and go through greater exertions to code specific moments in the game to allow controlled Z movmenet in a game that will overwise not allow it is beyond me.
Z movement = a simpler easier way to enable total freedom in the game
Specifically coding controled Z movement = so much more work for them that it's boggling to me WHY they dont just take the easier route.
EDIT: Lol just realized I was referring to Z momvement (up and down) as Y movement (Forward and back or Left and right) really it doesn't matter what you label either as but for consistency and rpevious post referring to Y momvement should be seen as Z movement (Up and down movement on a 3 demensional axis)
Ok I've been watching this thread for a while and now went back to get some reasons why peoples say it shouldn't be jumping.
Bunny hopping
Jump consumes stamina and there it's fixed
Jumping really doesn't belong in FFXIV, since it didn't exist in the first FFXI mmo
Is this really a reason? Plus FFXI is 8 years old. Things evolve.
Because there is no need for a jump feature.
Even though many peoples state the reasons why it's needed?
it's so unrealistic. You can't jump with an armor.
Ok then what about leather and cloth. Let's make the plate guy walk slower too. Realism in a game where the clue is in the tittle?
because the game isn't wow! Wow invented jumping and every game that uses it is an wow clone I guess
Now the only reason stated that may make a bit of sense is that it takes time and that time should be used in other things. I would expect such thinking from a low budgeted indie company not from a such powerful one as SE. They shouldn't need to choose between this or that.
See this is what I was talking about people dont fully understand why a majority of the anti jumpers dont want jumping. People have said in this thread numerous times the many problems that jumping brings, to refresh your memory some, mob exploits, map exploits, exploits in general, stuck, falling through map, bunny hops theres a whole slew of them, some minor and some major. Some of you guys think you have the perfect solution but things are more complicated than just implementing some feature, sure some are good ideas on paper, but they may not jive with the game as a whole. I would'nt mind a well thought out/programmed jumping system, but if it means that they have to sacrifice some other important feature like client stablility, core gameplay, content of the mmo to work on a jumping system, uhh for me just leave it out. And a well planned jumping system would take a lot of resources to implement. Thinking otherwise is ignorant.
Lack of jumping is not a gamebreaking feature for the majority of mmo'ers, client problems, core gameplay, and broken content are gamebreaking. When an mmo launches you dont see rage quit posts over jumping, if we see a lot of jumping posts when ffxiv launches, I may soften up on my stance a little. Now no game will launch flawlessly but haveing to waste time, and money patching less important issues like jumping exploits, and pvp balance is a never ending task, time and money should be spent on more important issues. Thankfully FFXIV wont have to worry about patching jumping and PvP balance.
For some those negatives that jumping bring are enough to say just leave jumping out, and based on the number of jumping threads across any forum id say its about 50-50. For you and others the pro's may outweigh the cons but for some the cons outweigh the pros. So try to understand that the world does not revolve around the pro-jumpers.
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"See this is what I was talking about people dont fully understand why a majority of the anti jumpers dont want jumping. People have said in this thread numerous times the many problems that jumping brings, to refresh your memory some, mob exploits, map exploits, exploits in general, stuck, falling through map, bunny hops theres a whole slew of them, some minor and some major."
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues. I had a ton of problems in FFXI getting stuck and hung up sometimes around no visable terrain obstacles just due to those annoying border barriers around anything that was remotely visual (cliff faces, tree clusters, path edges etc...) . There was no jump in that game and the problem still existed.
And most of these issues are related to faulty terrain design and poor physics... the fact they couldnt get their jump function to work properly is a by product of this. Finally like I said earlier.... MANY more MMOs have jump than don't, and those games weren't ruined for it...
I am not knocking the FF dev team, I am sure there are any number of reasons they decided for their game the jump function was unecessary ... but I doubt it had anything to do with the litany of silly reasons listed here. It was probably more along the lines of ... lets vamp up our old FFXI engine instead of designing a whole new one, cause that is what we'd have to do to add a jump feature ... seeing as our world atm has no true gravity or point location built into the physics engine...
Frankly... judging from your signature I am guessing your opinion on this matter is slightly jaded... as mine is for playing about 25 MMOs that have a jump function... in almost every case ... an effective, useful, endearing (i.e. EQ1 barrel rolling dorfs, or WoWs flipping NEs), ammusing, and NON GAME BREAKING feature. The exception being Star Trek Online...their jump sucked ... never been stuck in mid aire in a jump before ...
I just think those boys at Cryptic could f*@! up an orgasm.
Anyway I think FFXIV will be a great game, all the folks who lovedd FFXI are gonna love it, and I am sure I will play it, as I tend to play all the big MMO releases come hell or high water. But the no jump thing is gonna drive me crazy again and I will probably see this game make its way to the graveyard of my attic before my free month is up. I don't mean to offend anyone by this... its my nuerosis and I alone have to suffer with it! Thanks for the debate I really couldnt add anything else to this one!
*edit: typos a plenty!
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
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Can you please cite examples from MMO testing?
I think the difference in terrain and physics design between platform games and PC based MMOs is quite different. I can't think of one instance in ALL the MMOs I have played where a jump related exploit or bug has been a "game breaking" isuue. But then... my memory aint what it used to be. So please ... enlighten me?
There is no difference, and I could bring up instances from AoC where you could kill things from unreachable geometry, but their answer was making mobs reset their patrols with full health the moment they lose LoS with you (even on the ground turning a corner at times, which sucks). There were also lots of places to get stuck in the geometry along the roofs of the Noble District and Kheshatta, and they ended up making a large plane you can walk on that visually hovers over that geometry.
There is also a pretty good "the noob" comic strip where a high-level dude is perched on a rock killing trolls that can't see him in order to fight back, so he just grinds endlessly on it. That alone should state it's happened before, and I'm not gonna dig it up for your sake.
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