Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
When people are saying "it's so simple to add, why doesn't SE do it" then yes it is a reason for not having said feature. Shit isn't as simple as you would think, and like the producer of the game said in an interview not long ago, they had plans for many things yet had to scratch many of them due to lack of manpower and time. Prioritize.
That is something a normal person can never grasp. To him a game can have everything because they don't have to care about petty little details like resources.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
No, but there is no reason for people to bitch that a game with jumping doesn't allow them to go literally *anywhere* they want either. Defeats the purpose of jumping in the first place if you ask me, and the fixing of 'blindspots' tends to create unwanted hindrances.
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You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
When people are saying "it's so simple to add, why doesn't SE do it" then yes it is a reason for not having said feature. Shit isn't as simple as you would think, and like the producer of the game said in an interview not long ago, they had plans for many things yet had to scratch many of them due to lack of manpower and time. Prioritize.
That is something a normal person can never grasp. To him a game can have everything because they don't have to care about petty little details like resources.
Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
Well either way the problems get solved ... resetting mobs ... removal of jump feature... different solutions to similar issues. I can't stand not jumping ... you can't stand resetting mobs ... so You play your games where there is no real physics engine and I will play my games where the mobs reset if you exploit them, and we'll both be happy!
Anyway I just think its rediculous to say jumping leads to game breaking exploits all the time ... because there are a TON of successful MMOs out there with existing jump mechanics(in fact FAR outnumbering games with no jump). And I am sure games with no jump mechanics still have exploits of there own(even though I cannot cite examples from personal experience seeing as how i can't get past the whole no jump thing in the first place) Exploiters will find exploits in any game.
Furthermore to say that this is a non issue for people and jump is a meaningless feature is equally as stubborn, as is evidenced by this 26 page thread on the matter.
But whatever ... honestly I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers here. Really all I was saying is that I have played alot of games that I really enjoyed for extended periods of time, in which the jump functioned well and lead to minimal in game issues... none of which I would classify as "game-breaking" and conversely to me the lack of a jump function is sufficient enough of an issue that it can turn me off of an IP that i am very passionate about (SWG for example)
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
When people are saying "it's so simple to add, why doesn't SE do it" then yes it is a reason for not having said feature. Shit isn't as simple as you would think, and like the producer of the game said in an interview not long ago, they had plans for many things yet had to scratch many of them due to lack of manpower and time. Prioritize.
That is something a normal person can never grasp. To him a game can have everything because they don't have to care about petty little details like resources.
Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
None based on LoS issues (unstoppable trains much?), and definitely not on PvP abuse. Thank you lack of jumping.
The fact is that you don't need it, but people want it just to see what abuses CAN be applied. Tools...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Look ... I don't know why you think problems like falling through the map, getting stuck, and map exploits are jump related game issues.
Because the majority of them are?
I was an in-house tester for a PS3 game during it's initial launch and every single time you could fall out of the world, kill a boss easily or get stuck someplace is because you jumped into obtuse geometry. It's just how it is, and you'll find the answer used to fix that is seen in games like Aika where you *can* jump, but there are so many invisible walls in places it looks like you *could* jump to that it gets nauseatiing. it was also the answer in the single-player game I worked on.
You could also remove collision from that obtuse geometry, but then people complain about being able to pass through those objects too. Even with the slightest amount of clipping, there is just no pleasing some people.
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
No, but there is no reason for people to bitch that a game with jumping doesn't allow them to go literally *anywhere* they want either. Defeats the purpose of jumping in the first place if you ask me, and the fixing of 'blindspots' tends to create unwanted hindrances.
Who's bitching about that? All I see is people bitching about bunnyhopping, which I find absolutely silly because any PvPer worth his salt will tell you that it does not work in most MMOs or even FPS games.
Moreover, most posts I've read in support of a jump feature, so far, is people wanting to clear small obstacles without going around them. Like fences, small rocks... Maybe an ability to walk down the hill, instead of following a predetermined path?
Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
It is. All those issues make implementing jumping (well) harder and harder. They didn't just save 'few bucks' by not having it. There's no 'laziness' in not implementing it. Only prioritizing.
Whether you agree that they should have focused on something else instead of jumping is another argument, but when we don't know what exactly was the trade-off there, it's hard to say.
XI's issues came from the necessary things. You don't need jumping but you know, walking and running on an uneven terrain are pretty much mandatory in a 3d game. That's where the issues came from, and there is really no way for SE to avoid them. Or rather, it is not sensible to do so.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
When people are saying "it's so simple to add, why doesn't SE do it" then yes it is a reason for not having said feature. Shit isn't as simple as you would think, and like the producer of the game said in an interview not long ago, they had plans for many things yet had to scratch many of them due to lack of manpower and time. Prioritize.
That is something a normal person can never grasp. To him a game can have everything because they don't have to care about petty little details like resources.
Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
None based on LoS issues (unstoppable trains much?), and definitely not on PvP abuse. Thank you lack of jumping.
The fact is that you don't need it, but people want it just to see what abuses CAN be applied. Tools...
People are still worried about mob trains? What modern MMO has those? What PvP exploit, please? And if you say bunnyhopping, you're going on ignore because it does not work in MMOs. Then again, you probably know that already.
People are still worried about mob trains? What modern MMO has those? What PvP exploit, please? And if you say bunnyhopping, you're going on ignore because it does not work in MMOs. Then again, you probably know that already.
Bunnyhopping (ignore me).
The fact remains that you want the ability to jump simply because deep down you want to see what kind of mess it can get you into, the very reason it's *not* there.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
It is. All those issues make implementing jumping (well) harder and harder. They didn't just save 'few bucks' by not having it. There's no 'laziness' in not implementing it. Only prioritizing.
Whether you agree that they should have focused on something else instead of jumping is another argument, but when we don't know what exactly was the trade-off there, it's hard to say.
XI's issues came from the necessary things. You don't need jumping but you know, walking and running on an uneven terrain are pretty much mandatory in a 3d game. That's where the issues came from, and there is really no way for SE to avoid them. Or rather, it is not sensible to do so.
And yet, other developers have absolutely no issues with doing it. Is there a lack of funds at SquareEnix or lack of programming skills?
People are still worried about mob trains? What modern MMO has those? What PvP exploit, please? And if you say bunnyhopping, you're going on ignore because it does not work in MMOs. Then again, you probably know that already.
Bunnyhopping (ignore me).
The fact remains that you want the ability to jump simply because deep down you want to see what kind of mess it can get you into, the very reason it's *not* there.
BUNNY HOPPING DOES NOT WORK IN MMORPG.
The fact remains that you don't want jumping because you have no idea what you're talking about and just parrotting what the SE exec said. Welcome to ignore.
Exploits caused by jumping and bunny hopping in an MMORPG?! LOL
I know that you have your fingers in your ears at this point, but it's well known that bunnyhopping in WoW allows you to cancel some attack animations, especially for hunters.
That on top of the previously mentioned points on LoS and other bullcrap should answer your question.
Jumping = exploitive, and uneccesary without true platforming to consider (as well as a world built to keep that in mind and have little abstract geometry along the zone edges, if not just invisible walls)
Now queue that dance of ignorance we all know and love.
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Exploits caused by jumping and bunny hopping in an MMORPG?! LOL
I know that you have your fingers in your ears at this point, but it's well known that bunnyhopping in WoW allows you to cancel some attack animations, especially for hunters.
That on top of the previously mentioned points on LoS and other bullcrap should answer your question.
Jumping = exploitive, and uneccesary without true platforming to consider (as well as a world built to keep that in mind and have little abstract geometry along the zone edges, if not just invisible walls)
Now queue that dance of ignorance we all know and love.
LOL really? Funny because I played WoW since it launched and never seen anyone bunny hop. I was actually a pretty heavy PvPer through out the whole time.
Line of Sight issues are not caused by jumping alone... Stop using silly examples!
Can you honestly tell me that Final Fantasy XI doesn't have any exploits? How about Guild Wars and Ultima Online? Stop with the nonsense and admit that you're blowing it way out of proportion and deliberately misleading people to support your argument. Or do you want me to list the current exploits in Final Fantasy XI?
Edit: as far as the nonexistant bunny hopping goes, since this game will have no PvP, is it even an issue?
LOL really? Funny because I played WoW since it launched and never seen anyone bunny hop. I was actually a pretty heavy PvPer through out the whole time.
Pay closer attention. Ranged dudes are well known for the "jumping shot". Ask Uquipu, he brings it up all the time as a highlight to the ranged classes (an unintended highlight).
Line of Sight issues are not caused by jumping alone... Stop using silly examples!
My first example was jumping on objects that you cannot be reached from. Silly example? Psh, that's a very, very old issue that dates back nearly a decade ago.
Can you honestly tell me that Final Fantasy XI doesn't have any exploits? How about Guild Wars and Ultima Online? Stop with the nonsense and admit that you're blowing it way out of proportion and deliberately misleading people to support your argument. Or do you want me to list the current exploits in Final Fantasy XI?
Your excuse is that because other exploits exist, you should'nt worry about ones caused by jumping. Yes, that's a reaaaal smart outlook. The fact is the game doesn't need it unless you *need* to jump platform to platform to get anywhere, and adding it just adds a set of problems with solutions you're going to hate.
In *fact*, it's having that Z axis that allows 3rd party exploits to get you under geometry or hover too high to be hit. MO is proof enough of the ability to jump being exploited without even having to jump in order to do it.
If anyone is blowing things out of proportion btw, it's you for overlooking the obvious here.
"Oh, we need jumping for the sake of it or this game will blow" ~that is blowing things out of proportion big guy.
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LOL really? Funny because I played WoW since it launched and never seen anyone bunny hop. I was actually a pretty heavy PvPer through out the whole time.
Pay closer attention.
Line of Sight issues are not caused by jumping alone... Stop using silly examples!
My first example was jumping on objects that you cannot be reached from. Silly example? Psh, that's a very, very old issue that dates back nearly a decade ago.
Can you honestly tell me that Final Fantasy XI doesn't have any exploits? How about Guild Wars and Ultima Online? Stop with the nonsense and admit that you're blowing it way out of proportion and deliberately misleading people to support your argument. Or do you want me to list the current exploits in Final Fantasy XI?
Your excuse is that because other exploits exist, you should'nt worry about ones caused by jumping. Yes, that's a reaaaal smart outlook. The fact is the game doesn't need it unless you *need* to jump platform to platform to get anywhere, and adding it just adds a set of problems with solutions you're going to hate.
If anyone is blowing things out of proportion btw, it's you for overlooking the obvious here.
"Oh, we need jumping for the sake of it or this game will blow" ~that is blowing things out of proportion big guy.
Anything can potentially cause an exploit. Let's just ban software completely. I mean, without software, there would be no software exploits, right?
Jumping does not cause exploits. Bad coding causes exploits to be found by people who want to exploit. Those people will exploit whether the game has jumping or not.
As far as your silly bunny hopping example, the only hopping I've seen is hunters, and other classes, doing a 360 in the air and hitting their insta-cast abilities while running away. That's not an exploit and it's not bunny hopping. Moreover, anyone caught bunny hopping in WoW was laughed at as a newb because everyone knew that it didn't work. Everyone except for the newbs, that is.
As far as your silly bunny hopping example, the only hopping I've seen is hunters, and other classes, doing a 360 in the air and hitting their insta-case abilities while running away. That's not an exploit and it's not bunny hopping. Moreover, anyone caught bunny hopping in WoW was laughed at as a newb because everyone knew that it didn't work. Everyone except for the newbs, that is.
So it's only bunnyhopping if you do it more than once? So if that hunter accidentally hops twice in a row it crosses the line into bunnyhopping?
Nitpick much?
Are you going to start referring me to the dictionary like every other cornered debater out there that can't fight back?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
As far as your silly bunny hopping example, the only hopping I've seen is hunters, and other classes, doing a 360 in the air and hitting their insta-case abilities while running away. That's not an exploit and it's not bunny hopping. Moreover, anyone caught bunny hopping in WoW was laughed at as a newb because everyone knew that it didn't work. Everyone except for the newbs, that is.
So it's only bunnyhopping if you do it more than once? So if that hunter accidentally hops twice in a row it crosses the line into bunnyhopping?
Nitpick much?
Are you going to start referring me to the dictionary like every other cornered debater out there that can't fight back?
Well, if you have no idea what you're talking about, what else do you want me to do?
Lol, maybe come up with good reasons as to why this game needs jumping instead of trying to argue the meaning of the word "bunnyhopping" like you're Bill Clinton arguing over the use of the word "is". Total cop out to what the real point is here.
Jumping isn't needed, and the people that say it is know very well that they just want it to experiment with how far it could break things, or if it can get them where they *shouldn't* be, and any routing to prevent that kind of thing is just going to piss them off further, even though they know full well why they put these kinds of things in place.
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Comments
You're going to bring beta testing issues as a reason why a launched game shouldn't have a jump feature? Maybe we shouldn't fly planes because during testing some of them crash?
I have yet to play an MMO where a lack of a jump feature prevented an interested person from exploiting.
When people are saying "it's so simple to add, why doesn't SE do it" then yes it is a reason for not having said feature. Shit isn't as simple as you would think, and like the producer of the game said in an interview not long ago, they had plans for many things yet had to scratch many of them due to lack of manpower and time. Prioritize.
That is something a normal person can never grasp. To him a game can have everything because they don't have to care about petty little details like resources.
No, but there is no reason for people to bitch that a game with jumping doesn't allow them to go literally *anywhere* they want either. Defeats the purpose of jumping in the first place if you ask me, and the fixing of 'blindspots' tends to create unwanted hindrances.
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Have I said that it's simple to add? The simple fact is that SE did not design their engine with a Z axis movement in mind because it would save on development costs.
The fact is that you people bring up exploiting, getting stuck in the world and other crap, thinking that it's a good reason to exclude a jump feature. Are you really trying to tell me that the previous FF MMO didn't have any exploits or issues?
Well either way the problems get solved ... resetting mobs ... removal of jump feature... different solutions to similar issues. I can't stand not jumping ... you can't stand resetting mobs ... so You play your games where there is no real physics engine and I will play my games where the mobs reset if you exploit them, and we'll both be happy!
Anyway I just think its rediculous to say jumping leads to game breaking exploits all the time ... because there are a TON of successful MMOs out there with existing jump mechanics(in fact FAR outnumbering games with no jump). And I am sure games with no jump mechanics still have exploits of there own(even though I cannot cite examples from personal experience seeing as how i can't get past the whole no jump thing in the first place) Exploiters will find exploits in any game.
Furthermore to say that this is a non issue for people and jump is a meaningless feature is equally as stubborn, as is evidenced by this 26 page thread on the matter.
But whatever ... honestly I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers here. Really all I was saying is that I have played alot of games that I really enjoyed for extended periods of time, in which the jump functioned well and lead to minimal in game issues... none of which I would classify as "game-breaking" and conversely to me the lack of a jump function is sufficient enough of an issue that it can turn me off of an IP that i am very passionate about (SWG for example)
No big woop~
None based on LoS issues (unstoppable trains much?), and definitely not on PvP abuse. Thank you lack of jumping.
The fact is that you don't need it, but people want it just to see what abuses CAN be applied. Tools...
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Who's bitching about that? All I see is people bitching about bunnyhopping, which I find absolutely silly because any PvPer worth his salt will tell you that it does not work in most MMOs or even FPS games.
Moreover, most posts I've read in support of a jump feature, so far, is people wanting to clear small obstacles without going around them. Like fences, small rocks... Maybe an ability to walk down the hill, instead of following a predetermined path?
It is. All those issues make implementing jumping (well) harder and harder. They didn't just save 'few bucks' by not having it. There's no 'laziness' in not implementing it. Only prioritizing.
Whether you agree that they should have focused on something else instead of jumping is another argument, but when we don't know what exactly was the trade-off there, it's hard to say.
XI's issues came from the necessary things. You don't need jumping but you know, walking and running on an uneven terrain are pretty much mandatory in a 3d game. That's where the issues came from, and there is really no way for SE to avoid them. Or rather, it is not sensible to do so.
People are still worried about mob trains? What modern MMO has those? What PvP exploit, please? And if you say bunnyhopping, you're going on ignore because it does not work in MMOs. Then again, you probably know that already.
Bunnyhopping (ignore me).
The fact remains that you want the ability to jump simply because deep down you want to see what kind of mess it can get you into, the very reason it's *not* there.
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Heartless...
you are my hero
And yet, other developers have absolutely no issues with doing it. Is there a lack of funds at SquareEnix or lack of programming skills?
BUNNY HOPPING DOES NOT WORK IN MMORPG.
The fact remains that you don't want jumping because you have no idea what you're talking about and just parrotting what the SE exec said. Welcome to ignore.
I'm sooooo hurt, really I am.
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Thank you.
I just find it silly the lengths certain people will go to defend their game. Exploits caused by jumping and bunny hopping in an MMORPG?! LOL
I know that you have your fingers in your ears at this point, but it's well known that bunnyhopping in WoW allows you to cancel some attack animations, especially for hunters.
That on top of the previously mentioned points on LoS and other bullcrap should answer your question.
Jumping = exploitive, and uneccesary without true platforming to consider (as well as a world built to keep that in mind and have little abstract geometry along the zone edges, if not just invisible walls)
Now queue that dance of ignorance we all know and love.
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LOL really? Funny because I played WoW since it launched and never seen anyone bunny hop. I was actually a pretty heavy PvPer through out the whole time.
Line of Sight issues are not caused by jumping alone... Stop using silly examples!
Can you honestly tell me that Final Fantasy XI doesn't have any exploits? How about Guild Wars and Ultima Online? Stop with the nonsense and admit that you're blowing it way out of proportion and deliberately misleading people to support your argument. Or do you want me to list the current exploits in Final Fantasy XI?
Edit: as far as the nonexistant bunny hopping goes, since this game will have no PvP, is it even an issue?
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Anything can potentially cause an exploit. Let's just ban software completely. I mean, without software, there would be no software exploits, right?
Jumping does not cause exploits. Bad coding causes exploits to be found by people who want to exploit. Those people will exploit whether the game has jumping or not.
As far as your silly bunny hopping example, the only hopping I've seen is hunters, and other classes, doing a 360 in the air and hitting their insta-cast abilities while running away. That's not an exploit and it's not bunny hopping. Moreover, anyone caught bunny hopping in WoW was laughed at as a newb because everyone knew that it didn't work. Everyone except for the newbs, that is.
So it's only bunnyhopping if you do it more than once? So if that hunter accidentally hops twice in a row it crosses the line into bunnyhopping?
Nitpick much?
Are you going to start referring me to the dictionary like every other cornered debater out there that can't fight back?
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Jumping in games is fine. Unless you happen to be master chief
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
Do you even know what "bunny hopping" refers to?
Called it ^_^
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Well, if you have no idea what you're talking about, what else do you want me to do?
Wait! LOL So if a person shows you proof that you have no idea what you're talking about, he's cornered?
In that case, consider yourself a winner of this argument.
Lol, maybe come up with good reasons as to why this game needs jumping instead of trying to argue the meaning of the word "bunnyhopping" like you're Bill Clinton arguing over the use of the word "is". Total cop out to what the real point is here.
Jumping isn't needed, and the people that say it is know very well that they just want it to experiment with how far it could break things, or if it can get them where they *shouldn't* be, and any routing to prevent that kind of thing is just going to piss them off further, even though they know full well why they put these kinds of things in place.
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