Well, if you have no idea what you're talking about, what else do you want me to do?
Lol, maybe come up with good reasons as to why this game needs jumping instead of trying to argue the meaning of the word "bunnyhopping" like you're Bill Clinton arguing over the use of the word "is". Total cop out to what the real point is here.
Jumping isn't needed, and the people that say it is know very well that they just want it to experiment with how far it could break things, or if it can get them where they *shouldn't* be, and any routing to prevent that kind of thing is just going to piss them off further, even though they know full well why they put these kinds of things in place.
You can't even come up with valid reasons why this, or any other, game shouldn't have jumping. You're using nonsense examples to support your point (do you even have one besides "I like everything SE does?").
You're using wrong terminalogy and calling it a copout when I correct you? REALLY?! You have no idea what you're talking about and it's a cop out on my part for attempting to educate you?
I think swords should be banned from MMORPGs because fire spells do too much damage. Makes sense? neither does your use of bunny hopping to anyone who knows what it means.
This argument is pointless anyway. Exploits happen with or without jumping and are not directly caused by it. Bunny hopping doesn't work in MMORPGs and if a person does jump every once in a while, it's not a big deal.
Jumping allows for more freedom of movement and does not restrict you to a certain path.
To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
People who want to exploit will find exploits whether or not the game has jumping. That was my point.
Because the argument so far is that jumping is bad because it causes exploits.
For me, jumping has nothing to do with the practicality of being able to jump over objects (it's a nice bonus, though).
The ability to jump is about freedom. It's not like an emote. There are a couple games I've played where the jump has been more like an emote and it has defeated the purpose. Real jumping in a game proves the existence of gravity in the world you are inhabiting. For example, if you jump while moving down a hill, you'll stay in the air longer (emote-like jumping wouldn't do this).
Jumping is important to me because it makes the world feel more like...well, a world. It prevents me from feeling like I'm glued to the ground. The existence of gravity and the existence of real space outside the confines of the ground increases my immersion. It's a strange phenomenon, admittedly, but, for some reason, jumping is crucial to my feeling of freedom in an online world. And, clearly, I'm not alone.
I'm not saying that FFXIV will suck without jumping. I'm just saying that wanting jumping in an MMO isn't ridiculous. Not all of us are "bunnyhopping WoW babies." Actually, almost all of us aren't. The people who bunnyhop constantly are probably too stupid to even think about caring whether or not a game has jumping in it. Furthermore, I'd be fine with a cooldown restriction on jumping to prevent bunnyhopping.
______________ "We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere... and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys!"
Jumping really doesn't belong in FFXIV, since it didn't exist in the first FFXI mmo. Continuity is a nice thing
Best quote ever , this just shows the quality of thought that goes into supporting mmos with awful combat.
I see your totally irrelevant citation of FFXI mmo in comparison to FFXIV with a citation of my own: Becuase FF2 didn't have 3d graphics or internet play they don't really belong in FFXIV.
I fully realize this argument is very stupid but I figure only 10% of the people reading these threads acctually think about what they are posting and even less about what they are reading.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
People who want to exploit will find exploits whether or not the game has jumping. That was my point.
Because the argument so far is that jumping is bad because it causes exploits.
But that is not a point at all. You are saying that a solution (no jumping) to the problem (exploits) should be rejected because some part of the problem (nonjumping exploits) would still exist. That's not a valid conclusion.
To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
People who want to exploit will find exploits whether or not the game has jumping. That was my point.
Because the argument so far is that jumping is bad because it causes exploits.
But that is not a point at all. You are saying that a solution (no jumping) to the problem (exploits) should be rejected because some part of the problem (nonjumping exploits) would still exist. That's not a valid conclusion.
No, that is the point. The ability to jump in an MMORPG does not automatically cause exploits. Exploits are going to happen. It's pretty much a fact. Singling out jumping as a cause of exploits is completely unwarranted. Out of all of the exploits I have heard of in various MMOs I have played, those caused by jumping are negligible in amount.
If we are going to start removing various features because they can cause an exploit, we'll have nothing to play.
To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
People who want to exploit will find exploits whether or not the game has jumping. That was my point.
Because the argument so far is that jumping is bad because it causes exploits.
But that is not a point at all. You are saying that a solution (no jumping) to the problem (exploits) should be rejected because some part of the problem (nonjumping exploits) would still exist. That's not a valid conclusion.
Yes it is. If no jumping was a vaild solution then so are the following.
See problem A = jumping exploit
Solution A = No jumping
See problem B = lag
Solution B= No internet play
See problem C = Some bad 3d geometery
Solution C = No 3d graphics
See problem O = Not a perfected game
Solution O = Should never be made.
It should be rejected becuase very few games have jumpign exploits and the fix to them is not removing jumping , however, their are a few people in this thread makign that claim.
Thus it is grounds to reject the no jumping as a solution argument, likewise, problems with a system does not equal the removal of that system but instead the correction of said system.
Any argument to the contrary is totally idiotic.
This entire thread just shows how many zealots are currently following FFXIV. No offense but drop some of that bias and get a brain.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
No, that is the point. The ability to jump in an MMORPG does not automatically cause exploits.
I edited that one post quoting you, with the green text, before you could catch it with your next reply.
MO has a very big hack that allows you to float way above the any point on the Z axis, or below the ground geometry in order to sneak into houses and wreck them. Maybe you seen the video. That hack alone is brought on by the ability to jump, simply by using the Z axis in the first place. That's an isolated incedent though, and not likely to happen in FFXI because their IT people are not in the least bit amatuer.
Though, again, my entire reasoning behind why FFXI doesn't need jumping is because of the kind of zones in play, and it's not complimentary to the combat. In short, the game doesn't need it, and adding it for it's own sake just opens a can of worms with other issues they will have to spend additional time fixing. If you were willing to settle for SWG-style jumping emotes that never truly lift you off the ground, then fine, but we both know that's a cop out and completely pointless... like actually jumping in a game where it's of no use. ~ and why bother unless you are determined to fix the problems you are going to create with it?
Red Faction Guerilla and GTA4 are perfect examples of where jumping can get you in trouble. Granted those games "needed it", but they were also willing to make sacrifices for it.
No, that is the point. The ability to jump in an MMORPG does not automatically cause exploits.
I edited that one post quoting you, with the green text, before you could catch it with your next reply.
MO has a very big hack that allows you to float way above the any point on the Z axis, or below the ground geometry in order to sneak into houses and wreck them. Maybe you seen the video. That hack alone is brought on by the ability to jump, simply by using the Z axis in the first place. That's an isolated incedent though, and not likely to happen in FFXI because their IT people are not in the least bit amatuer.
Though, again, my entire reasoning behind why FFXI doesn't need jumping is because of the kind of zones in play, and it's not complimentary to the combat. In short, the game doesn't need it, and adding it for it's own sake just opens a can of worms with other issues they will have to spend additional time fixing. If you were willing to settle for SWG-style jumping emotes that never truly lift you off the ground, then fine, but we both know that's a cop out and completely pointless... like actually jumping in a game where it's of no use. ~ and why bother unless you are determined to fix the problems you are going to create with it?
Red Faction Guerilla and GTA4 are perfect examples of where jumping can get you in trouble. Granted those games "needed it", but they were also willing to make sacrifices for it.
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Edit: Jetrpg's point is valid. If a 3D game has geometry issues, the developer's answer is fixing those issues, not redoing the game in 2D. Same with the lag issue. If an online game has lag problems, the developer's response is fixing the cause of this lag, not removing online play. Why is it that you're justifying removal of a feature because it can cause exploits, as opposed to fixing the feature?
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Use some logic here.
The exploit is about editing your bearings on the Z axis, and that Z axis is coded in simply to allow jumping. You can do this is *any* game (any, and I mean 8-bit super mario), but the only reason it isn't handled right in MO is because those checks are made client-side.
In fact, the only reason I think that game even works to the point it does is because they waylayed all the important checks like that. I highly doubt the servers would stand all that's going on otherwise.
~and I think you are misunderstanding Jet's post for the sake of your own argument. He clearly states the answer to bad 3d graphics is *no* 3d graphics. As well as no internet play to fix no lag, and no game if it's not good enough (period). Ridiculous assessment, and I'm surprised you didn't read it for what it is.
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If you want to claim that the number or severity of exploits related to jumping is negligibly low compared to the number or severity of exploits not related to jumping, go for it. (I expect that you will not find many people who agree with that, though.) Just understand that that is completely different than saying that nothing is gained by removing exploits related to jumping due to the possibility of other exploits.
Jet, your post is a fantastic example of why his conclusion is not valid. You are, in that simple post, pointing out in amazing detail why his argument is wrong. I'm just confused as to why you think that helps his stance rather than tearing it to shreds. By your own admission, the line of thinking that says "a solution is not acceptable until it is perfect, so do not ever stop removing features" leads to an absurd conclusion (don't make any games ever) and is therefore an absurd line of thinking.
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Use some logic here.
The exploit is about editing your bearings on the Z axis, and that Z axis is coded in simply to allow jumping. You can do this is *any* game (any, and I mean 8-bit super mario), but the only reason it isn't handled right in MO is because those checks are made client-side.
You're using a broken and unfinished game to justify your reason. I'm sure that there are multitude of other client-side checks that can be exploited, should MO remove the features associated with them as well?
If you want to claim that the number or severity of exploits related to jumping is negligibly low compared to the number or severity of exploits not related to jumping, go for it. (I expect that you will not find many people who agree with that, though.) Just understand that that is completely different than saying that nothing is gained by removing exploits related to jumping due to the possibility of other exploits.
Jet, your post is a fantastic example of why his conclusion is not valid. You are, in that simple post, pointing out in amazing detail why his argument is wrong. I'm just confused as to why you think that helps his stance rather than tearing it to shreds. By your own admission, the line of thinking that says "a solution is not acceptable until it is perfect, so do not ever stop removing features" leads to an absurd conclusion (don't make any games ever) and is therefore an absurd line of thinking.
My argument is wrong because I think that implementing a feature correctly is a better solution than removing it because it may cause exploits?
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Use some logic here.
The exploit is about editing your bearings on the Z axis, and that Z axis is coded in simply to allow jumping. You can do this is *any* game (any, and I mean 8-bit super mario), but the only reason it isn't handled right in MO is because those checks are made client-side.
You're using a broken and unfinished game to justify your reason. I'm sure that there are multitude of other client-side checks that can be exploited, should MO remove the features associated with them as well?
I'm using a perfect example of the can of worms that jumping opens, and I never said all games should avoid the ability to jump, I said some games "have no reason to". Like this one (FFXIV).
MO needs all it's checks serverside, the jumping isn't the problem, but you'd love to make it seem like that's what I'm getting at.
I really think you are only hearing/seeing what you want to, and how you completely misinterpreted Jet's point is total proof.
~and to answer your question - YES - all games remove things because of exploits, none go as far as to remove jumping, but none would put jumping in a game "just because" either. It's almost like you've never played a beta in your life.
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My argument is wrong because I think that implementing a feature correctly is a better solution than removing it because it can cause exploits?
Your argument is wrong because it relies on a logical fallacy. If the game would be better with correct jumping than with no jumping at all (both of which involve no jump exploits), then the existence of other kinds of exploits is irrelevant; why bring it up at all? It doesn't prove your point, it only distracts from what should be the core of the discussion: do the benefits of implementing jumping in game outweigh the costs?
You can't even come up with valid reasons why this, or any other, game shouldn't have jumping. You're using nonsense examples to support your point (do you even have one besides "I like everything SE does?").
I can come up with a valid reason: The game and it's world are not designed with jumping in mind, therefore the addition of the jump feature would be unnecessary.
So when faced with player demand of a jumping feature, SE can choose to:
1) Revise all of the existing game world and content with the jumping ability in mind so that it becomes part of the game's core design (which would take a disproportionately large amount of time and resources for a marginal perceived benefit).
2) Keep all else the same and simply add a jump feature to the existing game (which I'm sure we can agree would cause players to run into a lot of terrain, exploit, and technical issues that they otherwise wouldn't have).
3) Deem it unnecessary to their game design and leave it out.
Based on the situation, SE made the logical decision to go with option 3. We can argue all day about whether the game would be theoretically better or not had it been designed with jumping from the get go, but that's irrelevant to SE's stance here.
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Use some logic here.
The exploit is about editing your bearings on the Z axis, and that Z axis is coded in simply to allow jumping. You can do this is *any* game (any, and I mean 8-bit super mario), but the only reason it isn't handled right in MO is because those checks are made client-side.
You're using a broken and unfinished game to justify your reason. I'm sure that there are multitude of other client-side checks that can be exploited, should MO remove the features associated with them as well?
I'm using a perfect example of the can of worms that jumping opens, and I never said all games should avoid the ability to jump, I said some games "have no reason to". Like this one.
MO needs all it's checks serverside, the jumping isn't the problem, but you'd love to make it seem like that's what I'm getting at.
I really think you are only hearing/seeing what you want to, and how you completely misinterpreted Jet's point is total proof.
~and to answer your question - YES - all games remove things because of exploits, none go as far as to remove jumping, but none would put jumping in a game "just because" either. It's almost like you've never played a beta in your life.
You're the one who used MO as an example when it shouldn't have even be considered. It's not the jumping itself that opened the can of worms. It's the fact that MO developers had no idea what they were doing when they implemented it.
My point is that you can't use something that was obviously not made correctly as a reason for not implementing a feature in a completely different game.
FFXIV does not have jumping but the main reason is not because it can cause exploits (other features can as well) it's simply because they did not want to spend the time and money redesigning their engine, which was obviously designed without the Z-axis movement.
As far as features being removed in games during testing, of course, that's what testing is for--to find out which features work and which do not. But that has nothing to do with not implementing jumping and then justifying it by saying that it can cause exploits.
My argument is wrong because I think that implementing a feature correctly is a better solution than removing it because it can cause exploits?
Your argument is wrong because it relies on a logical fallacy. If the game would be better with correct jumping than with no jumping at all (both of which involve no jump exploits), then the existence of other kinds of exploits is irrelevant; why bring it up at all? It doesn't prove your point, it only distracts from what should be the core of the discussion: do the benefits of implementing jumping in game outweigh the costs?
If you have nothing really relevent to contribute to this discussion, why bother all? Or is that not a logical fallacy?
Edit: This whole topic is a logical fallacy, if you think about it.
Anyway, I'm tired of this pseudo intellectual nonsense, night folks!
Comments
As a FFXI vet I was extremely happy to see no jumping in this game either.
If you want a game with jumping, then... don't pick this game?
I see no need to fight over it.
(For the record gtwarder is right in that fight going on right now)
You can't even come up with valid reasons why this, or any other, game shouldn't have jumping. You're using nonsense examples to support your point (do you even have one besides "I like everything SE does?").
You're using wrong terminalogy and calling it a copout when I correct you? REALLY?! You have no idea what you're talking about and it's a cop out on my part for attempting to educate you?
I think swords should be banned from MMORPGs because fire spells do too much damage. Makes sense? neither does your use of bunny hopping to anyone who knows what it means.
This argument is pointless anyway. Exploits happen with or without jumping and are not directly caused by it. Bunny hopping doesn't work in MMORPGs and if a person does jump every once in a while, it's not a big deal.
Jumping allows for more freedom of movement and does not restrict you to a certain path.
I made plenty, you just seem intent on making me run circles around it.
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To heartless' credit, he is correct that the term "bunnyhopping" has a very specific meaning to FPS players. It is not a general term for excessive jumping or jump-based exploitation. To his discredit, he should read up on the Perfect solution fallacy as long as he's on Wikipedia. The argument that removing jumping to stop some exploits is pointless since there are other kinds of exploits is an argument that just doesn't hold water.
Exploits and bunny hopping are not valid reasons. Exploits happen with or without jumping a bunny hopping doesn't mean what you think it means.
People who want to exploit will find exploits whether or not the game has jumping. That was my point.
Because the argument so far is that jumping is bad because it causes exploits.
Exploits isn't a valid reason? Lamest rebuttal ever lol.
You should read the whole argument before singling out one post while trying to be witty.
For me, jumping has nothing to do with the practicality of being able to jump over objects (it's a nice bonus, though).
The ability to jump is about freedom. It's not like an emote. There are a couple games I've played where the jump has been more like an emote and it has defeated the purpose. Real jumping in a game proves the existence of gravity in the world you are inhabiting. For example, if you jump while moving down a hill, you'll stay in the air longer (emote-like jumping wouldn't do this).
Jumping is important to me because it makes the world feel more like...well, a world. It prevents me from feeling like I'm glued to the ground. The existence of gravity and the existence of real space outside the confines of the ground increases my immersion. It's a strange phenomenon, admittedly, but, for some reason, jumping is crucial to my feeling of freedom in an online world. And, clearly, I'm not alone.
I'm not saying that FFXIV will suck without jumping. I'm just saying that wanting jumping in an MMO isn't ridiculous. Not all of us are "bunnyhopping WoW babies." Actually, almost all of us aren't. The people who bunnyhop constantly are probably too stupid to even think about caring whether or not a game has jumping in it. Furthermore, I'd be fine with a cooldown restriction on jumping to prevent bunnyhopping.
______________
"We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere... and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys!"
Best quote ever , this just shows the quality of thought that goes into supporting mmos with awful combat.
I see your totally irrelevant citation of FFXI mmo in comparison to FFXIV with a citation of my own: Becuase FF2 didn't have 3d graphics or internet play they don't really belong in FFXIV.
I fully realize this argument is very stupid but I figure only 10% of the people reading these threads acctually think about what they are posting and even less about what they are reading.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
But that is not a point at all. You are saying that a solution (no jumping) to the problem (exploits) should be rejected because some part of the problem (nonjumping exploits) would still exist. That's not a valid conclusion.
No, that is the point. The ability to jump in an MMORPG does not automatically cause exploits. Exploits are going to happen. It's pretty much a fact. Singling out jumping as a cause of exploits is completely unwarranted. Out of all of the exploits I have heard of in various MMOs I have played, those caused by jumping are negligible in amount.
If we are going to start removing various features because they can cause an exploit, we'll have nothing to play.
Yes it is. If no jumping was a vaild solution then so are the following.
See problem A = jumping exploit
Solution A = No jumping
See problem B = lag
Solution B= No internet play
See problem C = Some bad 3d geometery
Solution C = No 3d graphics
See problem O = Not a perfected game
Solution O = Should never be made.
It should be rejected becuase very few games have jumpign exploits and the fix to them is not removing jumping , however, their are a few people in this thread makign that claim.
Thus it is grounds to reject the no jumping as a solution argument, likewise, problems with a system does not equal the removal of that system but instead the correction of said system.
Any argument to the contrary is totally idiotic.
This entire thread just shows how many zealots are currently following FFXIV. No offense but drop some of that bias and get a brain.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I edited that one post quoting you, with the green text, before you could catch it with your next reply.
MO has a very big hack that allows you to float way above the any point on the Z axis, or below the ground geometry in order to sneak into houses and wreck them. Maybe you seen the video. That hack alone is brought on by the ability to jump, simply by using the Z axis in the first place. That's an isolated incedent though, and not likely to happen in FFXI because their IT people are not in the least bit amatuer.
Though, again, my entire reasoning behind why FFXI doesn't need jumping is because of the kind of zones in play, and it's not complimentary to the combat. In short, the game doesn't need it, and adding it for it's own sake just opens a can of worms with other issues they will have to spend additional time fixing. If you were willing to settle for SWG-style jumping emotes that never truly lift you off the ground, then fine, but we both know that's a cop out and completely pointless... like actually jumping in a game where it's of no use. ~ and why bother unless you are determined to fix the problems you are going to create with it?
Red Faction Guerilla and GTA4 are perfect examples of where jumping can get you in trouble. Granted those games "needed it", but they were also willing to make sacrifices for it.
@above poster - that is ridiculous.
If the answer to jumping bugs is no jumping, then the answer to lag is no internet play?
The answer to bad graphics is to give up entirely?
Do you take yourself seriously?
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Wow, if jumping causes someone lag on their PC time to upgrade from that 386 Kmart special.
END OF LINE_
~V
I'm not sure if MO can even be considered an actual game yet. From what I've seen, it's more like someone randomly typed a whole bunch of code and it somehow worked... Sort of...
The hack is not brought on by the ability to jump, it's brought on by the fact that the game is not finished and is very buggy. You can't use bad programming as a justification to remove jumping. It just doesn't make any sense.
Is jumping the only thing that can be exploited in MO? Why not remove other features that are buggy or prone to exploitation? No, the answer is not removal of features. The answer is implimenting them correctly.
Edit: Jetrpg's point is valid. If a 3D game has geometry issues, the developer's answer is fixing those issues, not redoing the game in 2D. Same with the lag issue. If an online game has lag problems, the developer's response is fixing the cause of this lag, not removing online play. Why is it that you're justifying removal of a feature because it can cause exploits, as opposed to fixing the feature?
Use some logic here.
The exploit is about editing your bearings on the Z axis, and that Z axis is coded in simply to allow jumping. You can do this is *any* game (any, and I mean 8-bit super mario), but the only reason it isn't handled right in MO is because those checks are made client-side.
In fact, the only reason I think that game even works to the point it does is because they waylayed all the important checks like that. I highly doubt the servers would stand all that's going on otherwise.
~and I think you are misunderstanding Jet's post for the sake of your own argument. He clearly states the answer to bad 3d graphics is *no* 3d graphics. As well as no internet play to fix no lag, and no game if it's not good enough (period). Ridiculous assessment, and I'm surprised you didn't read it for what it is.
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If you want to claim that the number or severity of exploits related to jumping is negligibly low compared to the number or severity of exploits not related to jumping, go for it. (I expect that you will not find many people who agree with that, though.) Just understand that that is completely different than saying that nothing is gained by removing exploits related to jumping due to the possibility of other exploits.
Jet, your post is a fantastic example of why his conclusion is not valid. You are, in that simple post, pointing out in amazing detail why his argument is wrong. I'm just confused as to why you think that helps his stance rather than tearing it to shreds. By your own admission, the line of thinking that says "a solution is not acceptable until it is perfect, so do not ever stop removing features" leads to an absurd conclusion (don't make any games ever) and is therefore an absurd line of thinking.
You're using a broken and unfinished game to justify your reason. I'm sure that there are multitude of other client-side checks that can be exploited, should MO remove the features associated with them as well?
My argument is wrong because I think that implementing a feature correctly is a better solution than removing it because it may cause exploits?
I'm using a perfect example of the can of worms that jumping opens, and I never said all games should avoid the ability to jump, I said some games "have no reason to". Like this one (FFXIV).
MO needs all it's checks serverside, the jumping isn't the problem, but you'd love to make it seem like that's what I'm getting at.
I really think you are only hearing/seeing what you want to, and how you completely misinterpreted Jet's point is total proof.
~and to answer your question - YES - all games remove things because of exploits, none go as far as to remove jumping, but none would put jumping in a game "just because" either. It's almost like you've never played a beta in your life.
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Your argument is wrong because it relies on a logical fallacy. If the game would be better with correct jumping than with no jumping at all (both of which involve no jump exploits), then the existence of other kinds of exploits is irrelevant; why bring it up at all? It doesn't prove your point, it only distracts from what should be the core of the discussion: do the benefits of implementing jumping in game outweigh the costs?
I can come up with a valid reason: The game and it's world are not designed with jumping in mind, therefore the addition of the jump feature would be unnecessary.
So when faced with player demand of a jumping feature, SE can choose to:
1) Revise all of the existing game world and content with the jumping ability in mind so that it becomes part of the game's core design (which would take a disproportionately large amount of time and resources for a marginal perceived benefit).
2) Keep all else the same and simply add a jump feature to the existing game (which I'm sure we can agree would cause players to run into a lot of terrain, exploit, and technical issues that they otherwise wouldn't have).
3) Deem it unnecessary to their game design and leave it out.
Based on the situation, SE made the logical decision to go with option 3. We can argue all day about whether the game would be theoretically better or not had it been designed with jumping from the get go, but that's irrelevant to SE's stance here.
You're the one who used MO as an example when it shouldn't have even be considered. It's not the jumping itself that opened the can of worms. It's the fact that MO developers had no idea what they were doing when they implemented it.
My point is that you can't use something that was obviously not made correctly as a reason for not implementing a feature in a completely different game.
FFXIV does not have jumping but the main reason is not because it can cause exploits (other features can as well) it's simply because they did not want to spend the time and money redesigning their engine, which was obviously designed without the Z-axis movement.
As far as features being removed in games during testing, of course, that's what testing is for--to find out which features work and which do not. But that has nothing to do with not implementing jumping and then justifying it by saying that it can cause exploits.
If you have nothing really relevent to contribute to this discussion, why bother all? Or is that not a logical fallacy?
Edit: This whole topic is a logical fallacy, if you think about it.
Anyway, I'm tired of this pseudo intellectual nonsense, night folks!