What I see very clearly is two different types of gamers both of which should not be playing the same game together.
The first type enjoys the process of progress and sees it as a never ending. Once progress is no longer possible then the game is over and its time to turn off the computer. (I fall with this category)
The other type wants to get to 'end game' as soon as possible mostly becuase they want to involve themselves in pvp where they feel that have a reasobably fair footing with foes.
I think both gaming approaches are 100% valid. I dont think one or the other is more right. The problem is that to make a very good game for one group will make a bad game for the other and vice versa (with one expection I will suggest below).
Ideally for those who see character progress as a means to an end rather than the game itself they would be best served playing a game with no progress at all. A Fantasy MMO version of Counter Strike for example.
The only other way around this is for the developer to slowly expose the cap skills. So for example instead of starting the game with skill of 100 and having every obssessed person try to get that one year goal as soon as possible just slowly increase the limit by starting say around 25, then patch with 50, then patch with 75 etc. Smart players will see this celverness most I think would not and fall into it like a frog in slowly boiling water.
Thats not exactly true. UO managed to accomodate both groups in a fantasy setting. They did this by limiting dmg inc and other mechanics in PvP. That put caps in place that ONLY effected PvP. This kept the game from new player and vet relatively mild in terms of PvP. The PvE caps were much, much higher. Meaning if you had +250% dmg, if you struck a player It could only go as high as lets say +50% and in PvE it would go up to +250%.
This kept the progression and allowed more to get into PvP without having to hit max skills.
Though hitting cap didn't take very long either and there was balance due to limited amount of skill point pool for your char. Granted there were still OP'd templates but the hard caps on the PvP kept them from being to OP'd.
So both groups can co-exist, the problem is with DFO's design it's taken the part each group hates the most and combined them lol.
Your standard progression being the end all measure of success lovers tend to not enjoy a more manual combat system, nor do they tend to enjoy FFA PvP with full loot.
Your standard PvP loving lunatics generally doesn't enjoy massive amounts of PvE grind required to advance in PvP. Nor do they want some unsurmountable advantage over others because that just kills the challenge.
AV has taken and made a game that turns off both RPG progression enthusists and PvP lovers alike creating a game that is basically killing itself. It would take some major changes at the core level at this point to appease both groups.
At this point in time their best bet is to simply try and appease one or the other and unless they are willing to do away with FFA PvP and full loot they are probably better off trying to appeal to PvP'rs.
Both groups can exist in the same game.... thats already been proven. DFO will either have to make core design changes to appeal to both groups or it will have to pick one or the other.
someone said that in UO you can max your character in a few weeks. That would not be acceptable to me (the first type of gamer I described). I explain again that the first type of gamer turns the computer off once max is reached. The progression IS the game not a means to the game. End gamers the progression is just a barrier to the game.
I just think both sides could be MUCH happier if they existed in seperate games from each other to be honest. I think I am advocating a two state solution here.
What I find intresting is how gamers who like fast progress do not see the HUGE advantage to their fun factor for a game that has no skill progression at all. No barriers peroid. why inst that appealing to those gamers?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
someone said that in UO you can max your character in a few weeks. That would not be acceptable to me (the first type of gamer I described). I explain again that the first type of gamer turns the computer off once max is reached. The progression IS the game not a means to the game. End gamers the progression is just a barrier to the game.
I just think both sides could be MUCH happier if they existed in seperate games from each other to be honest. I think I am advocating a two state solution here.
What I find intresting is how gamers who like fast progress do not see the HUGE advantage to their fun factor for a game that has no skill progression at all. No barriers peroid. why inst that appealing to those gamers?
Isnt there some asian grinders which doesnt have any limit at all? They last endless. That game would fit you by far more then DF.
Let me remind you that devs originaly never ment to create DF without any sort of caps. I dont know what was the point which made them to change their opinion? Forced to release? No money? Dont know and i guess no one except them will ever know it. There were a lot of discussion about it, with all the pros / cons.
Ive got still one question, do you think there would have been 200 000 players interessted in DF beta (stated by AV themself) or even 1 000 000 millions uniq clicks a bit more then year ago, if they would have told from start on, that DF would be Lineage 2 style instead of UO style game?
I doubt it. If devs wouldnt advertise this game as pvp (only), there wouldnt have been QQ orgy. You just need to check the main page of the darkfall. There is not a single word mentioned about PvE and the grind (progression for you) but only pvp (which actually is the endgame).
What I see very clearly is two different types of gamers both of which should not be playing the same game together.
The first type enjoys the process of progress and sees it as a never ending. Once progress is no longer possible then the game is over and its time to turn off the computer. (I fall with this category)
The other type wants to get to 'end game' as soon as possible mostly becuase they want to involve themselves in pvp where they feel that have a reasobably fair footing with foes.
I think both gaming approaches are 100% valid. I dont think one or the other is more right. The problem is that to make a very good game for one group will make a bad game for the other and vice versa (with one expection I will suggest below).
Ideally for those who see character progress as a means to an end rather than the game itself they would be best served playing a game with no progress at all. A Fantasy MMO version of Counter Strike for example.
The only other way around this is for the developer to slowly expose the cap skills. So for example instead of starting the game with skill of 100 and having every obssessed person try to get that one year goal as soon as possible just slowly increase the limit by starting say around 25, then patch with 50, then patch with 75 etc. Smart players will see this celverness most I think would not and fall into it like a frog in slowly boiling water.
Thats not exactly true. UO managed to accomodate both groups in a fantasy setting. They did this by limiting dmg inc and other mechanics in PvP. That put caps in place that ONLY effected PvP. This kept the game from new player and vet relatively mild in terms of PvP. The PvE caps were much, much higher. Meaning if you had +250% dmg, if you struck a player It could only go as high as lets say +50% and in PvE it would go up to +250%.
This kept the progression and allowed more to get into PvP without having to hit max skills.
Though hitting cap didn't take very long either and there was balance due to limited amount of skill point pool for your char. Granted there were still OP'd templates but the hard caps on the PvP kept them from being to OP'd.
So both groups can co-exist, the problem is with DFO's design it's taken the part each group hates the most and combined them lol.
Your standard progression being the end all measure of success lovers tend to not enjoy a more manual combat system, nor do they tend to enjoy FFA PvP with full loot.
Your standard PvP loving lunatics generally doesn't enjoy massive amounts of PvE grind required to advance in PvP. Nor do they want some unsurmountable advantage over others because that just kills the challenge.
AV has taken and made a game that turns off both RPG progression enthusists and PvP lovers alike creating a game that is basically killing itself. It would take some major changes at the core level at this point to appease both groups.
At this point in time their best bet is to simply try and appease one or the other and unless they are willing to do away with FFA PvP and full loot they are probably better off trying to appeal to PvP'rs.
Both groups can exist in the same game.... thats already been proven. DFO will either have to make core design changes to appeal to both groups or it will have to pick one or the other.
someone said that in UO you can max your character in a few weeks. That would not be acceptable to me (the first type of gamer I described). I explain again that the first type of gamer turns the computer off once max is reached. The progression IS the game not a means to the game. End gamers the progression is just a barrier to the game.
I just think both sides could be MUCH happier if they existed in seperate games from each other to be honest. I think I am advocating a two state solution here.
What I find intresting is how gamers who like fast progress do not see the HUGE advantage to their fun factor for a game that has no skill progression at all. No barriers peroid. why inst that appealing to those gamers?
lol the problem is if those that this would appeal to left DFO would lost most of the rest of it's player base. You have to know that most that stay in DFO are there for the PvP. DFO isn't a good PvE MMO, it doesn't have much of any sandbox features. It's draw was PvP and the possibility for war in a persistent fantasy world.
From my experience and simply in my opinion the ones you are asking to go find another game are the ones that have been keeping DFO afloat.
Again if you want to keep the grind and long term progression in a traditional RPG sense there are plenty of other MMO's that offer that and do it it better. For those in DFO for the PvP and the wars in a persistent fantasy world there really isn't another option. Where would they go? You may not like your other options but unlike them you do have plenty of options.
And in any case.... yes you can Max out your char in UO in a relatively short amount of time. The thing is lets say you pick a tamer right? You then tame pets. It takes a week for a pet to bond. After it bonds you then have to train your pet's skills.
On top of that you are constantly reworking your toons template. You may want to try Spell Weaving with Chivalry and Swords. You may then decide that since you've done that for awhile you may want to play Chiv and Bushido. Then you may decide you would like to be an archer instead of swords.
While the skill cap can be reached in a short amount of time your toon continued to evolve and change. It was never ending because of all the different combinations you could have. Finding a single piece of jewelry could change how you wanted your template.
I will agree with you though... I have found a game that gives me the PvP and skips the asinine PvE grind that I've come to loath. I got hooked on APB. So you are right about some finding enjoyment by simply moving on to a game that does offer what DFO originally claimed it offered.
The question is.... will DFO do very well if they do move on? How many do you think stay in DFO because they enjoy the PvE grind progression?
AV screwed up that simple, they betrayed the effort their loyal playerbase has put into this game by making this carebear patch. Time for us to step up and show them they can't do that. I'll give them one more month if this carebearing doesn't stop I'll move on.
Back in the good old days you have been rewarded for beeing a loyal customer and nowadays you get a bunch of spoiled carebears keep on whinning and developers are giving up by dumbing down the game --> losing the loyal playerbase for the instant gratification crowd. I'm not willing to support this kind of thinking Darkfall was produced as a hardcore game and this patch drove it away. Talked to many friends about this patch and no one is happy most are considering calling it a game.
Stop using the word carebear when you obviously dont know for what it stand for.
I will agree with you though... I have found a game that gives me the PvP and skips the asinine PvE grind that I've come to loath. I got hooked on APB. So you are right about some finding enjoyment by simply moving on to a game that does offer what DFO originally claimed it offered.
The question is.... will DFO do very well if they do move on? How many do you think stay in DFO because they enjoy the PvE grind progression?
UO example was good one - how to create months of "progression", while keeping PvP balanced. EvE follows similar model.
In DF we have about 500 skills. Does this mean that we need 2 years to get ready for PvP, and there is WoW-style PvE progression ?
There is no way to use all skills during PvP encounter. And almost all skills have dimnishing returns - getting 70% of gains requires 30% of grinding. Heavy armor makes 90% of magic skills meaningless. Destroyer or indestructible spec just blocks all high magic - so you can't even try to cast spell.
Grinders constantly look for a way to get advantage through inbalances / loopholes. After each patch they try new skills to find new overlooked, overpowered tactics. It's constant battle between them and AV designers. Few examples:
AFK swimming - defeated by nonlinear HP gains, grinding all weapons to 50 - global cooldown on whirlwinds, multiple magic schools at 100 - global cooldown on R50 / R90 / R100, multiple surging R50 / R90 - AOE damage nerf, surging unburden allowing for plate mages - unburden lasts 10 seconds and has 30 seconds cooldown, grinding Eye Rot to 75 - cooldown increased to 30 seconds, grinding Witches Brew to 100 - spell radius increases with spell level, etc, etc.
Tasos and Claus talked a lot about "no-grind philosophy" for many years of DF development. It means that they don't care how many hours players will invest into leveling all rays to surging (new mage template) - if they'll decide that this is too OP, they'll nerf it to hell, effectively cancelling any "progress" that some players may have made.
So the only PvE progression that exists in DF is leveling current OP skills to 100 - and enjoying unfair advantage until AV will nerf them to useful, but not really necessary level, making you feel that you just wasted a lot of time.
Everyone, listen to this. Its better to boycott rather then being loyal.
Most of us DF followers was looking impatiently for DF release. WE readed all the feature. At release, feature that made darkfall seem like the best sandbox game didnt had all of that. It was super grindy since the start, no cap, no decay = no longterm equality.
What we did, boycott the game and complain on the forum. IT worked so it was obvious that AV had to change the game.
You so called loyal players are selfish. You come in here speaking like noble men thinking like AV think about you guys. AV dont care for all of you loyal players if you are not ready to put more money into it. Anyway, you call yourself loyal players. So its obvious that you wont leave the game no matter what AV do to it. Will you loyal player boycott DF only so they can add the huge grind again? No. So we won, you lost.
I think that realbigdeal guy has got to be a troll. I only see him post in public section on DF forums and he says the most rediculous things, I don't even bother arguing with him as its obvious he doesn't play the game or know how it really works.
Damn, you casual players really piss me off. A company creates a game with a certain level of difficulty wherein it takes a certain amount of time to achieve endgame and survive. Some players who put the time in, achieve that, but in order to reward them the developers dumb down and 'stupidify' the game so that you casuals don't have to 'grind'. How is that fair to those original players who spend far more time to achieve that same effect? Simple, it isn't. So the game may have more subscribers, but in the end the game's community goes to hell. Eight million kiddies running around spewing leetspeek is no substitute for three hundred thousand compitent and mature players.
This is almost the exact same scenario that occured in SWG when the players who put in the time to complete the hologrind for Jedi, were rewarded with newer players being able to complete the same thing far easier via the Village, or 'instantly' in the NGE. All because, someone was obsessed with the being a 'hero'. Whaa! I want my glowstick NOW!
I hate grind, but I do respect someone who put the time in to become the best. I can't speak for pvp, because I neither participate in it, nor enjoy it. So I won't go there. But I will say that if you suck at pvp, that isn't the games fault. Maybe you should spend a bit more time playing the game and not quite so much on facebook telling people what you ate for lunch.
However, MMOs are not single player games. They are designed so that you can't 'win' in two days. If you have a problem with that, go back to your PS3.
Damn, you casual players really piss me off. A company creates a game with a certain level of difficulty wherein it takes a certain amount of time to achieve endgame and survive. Some players who put the time in, achieve that, but in order to reward them the developers dumd down the game so you casuals don't have 'grind'. How is that fair to those original players who spend far more time to achieve that same effect?
This is almost the exact same scenario that occured in SWG when the players who put in the time to complete the hologrind for Jedi, were rewarded with newer players being able to complete the same thing via the Village, or 'instantly' in the NGE. All because, someone was obsessed with the being a 'hero'. Whaa! I want my shiny stick NOW!
I hate grind, but I do respect someone who put the time in to become the best. I can't speak for pvp, because I neither participate in it, nor enjoy it. So I won't go there.
However, MMOs are not single player games. They are designed so that you can't 'win' in two days. If you have a problem with that, go back to your PS3.
Is that really the casual gamers fault? Just like you do they want to have fun.
If the devs change their games to cater another crowd, who is to blame?
I do however not really agree that grinding is what makes a game hardcore or not, in that case would Lineage 2 be the most hardcore game ever...
There is a difference between difficult and forcing players to do the same thing a over and over, no matter if we talk PvE or PvP.
Damn, you casual players really piss me off. A company creates a game with a certain level of difficulty wherein it takes a certain amount of time to achieve endgame and survive. Some players who put the time in, achieve that, but in order to reward them the developers dumb down and 'stupidify' the game so that you casuals don't have to 'grind'. How is that fair to those original players who spend far more time to achieve that same effect? Simple, it isn't. So the game may have more subscribers, but in the end the game's community goes to hell. Eight million kiddies running around spewing leetspeek is no substitute for three hundred thousand compitent and mature players.
This is almost the exact same scenario that occured in SWG when the players who put in the time to complete the hologrind for Jedi, were rewarded with newer players being able to complete the same thing far easier via the Village, or 'instantly' in the NGE. All because, someone was obsessed with the being a 'hero'. Whaa! I want my glowstick NOW!
I hate grind, but I do respect someone who put the time in to become the best. I can't speak for pvp, because I neither participate in it, nor enjoy it. So I won't go there. But I will say that if you suck at pvp, that isn't the games fault. Maybe you should spend a bit more time playing the game and not quite so much on facebook telling people what you ate for lunch.
However, MMOs are not single player games. They are designed so that you can't 'win' in two days. If you have a problem with that, go back to your PS3.
Is it my fault that you guys were stupid enough to actually sit there and grind for attribute skill ups instead of giving the devs shit early on so it could have gotten changed faster.
This is why I wait 3-6 months to play a mmo after release because i know the pathetic grind will be nerfed and ill be kicking your ass while doing 1/3 the work you did.
Is that really the casual gamers fault? Just like you do they want to have fun.
If the devs change their games to cater another crowd, who is to blame?
I do however not really agree that grinding is what makes a game hardcore or not, in that case would Lineage 2 be the most hardcore game ever...
There is a difference between difficult and forcing players to do the same thing a over and over, no matter if we talk PvE or PvP.
The existence of grind or the lack thereof is not the issue here. The issue is that some players spent far longer to achive what newer players are achieving with far less time investment. Now, I won't disagree with you that what makes a game hardcore or not isn't the grind, but allowing certain players to do less of it and then allowed the same reward - that's cheap.
In a way it is the casual gamer's fault, they have plenty of games to play. The hardcore amongst us do not have so many options, and when a developer chooses to stupidify their game to make it 'easier' for casuals that pisses the hardcore players off. You keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter, and I will keep my peanut butter out of your chocolate.
If they wanted to reduce grind, I'm fine with that, but not at the expense of the veteran players. The veterans should've been compensated in some way.
If you want a 'Hardcore' mmo where you can do literally anything to anyone if you know how to...
Why the hell are you not playing EvE?
It's not about pvp for me, matter of fact I'm an industrialist/crafter. My concern is spelled about below.
I am playing Eve, I've been playing it for five years. I haven't played DarkFall, but I recognize the situation. I lived through the SWG fiasco. I am here in defense of the Original Poster, not so much for the PVP aspect, but because the developers are screwing veteran players.
The existence of grind or the lack thereof is not the issue here. The issue is that some players spent far longer to achive what newer players are achieving with far less time investment. Now, I won't disagree with you that what makes a game hardcore or not isn't the grind, but allowing certain players to do less of it and then allowed the same reward - that's cheap.
In a way it is the casual gamer's fault, they have plenty of games to play. The hardcore amongst us do not have so many options, and when a developer chooses to stupidify their game to make it 'easier' for casuals that pisses the hardcore players off. You keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter, and I will keep my peanut butter out of your chocolate.
If they wanted to reduce grind, I'm fine with that, but not at the expense of the veteran players. The veterans shouldn't have been compensated in some way.
Well, I agree to some point. It do suck when you have to do a lot of work to get something and the company just nerfs it to be easy later. But that is happening in all MMOs 'cept Eve.
All games should reward faithful veterans. Avi really should make a system for that, most games have.
But you must also understand that a MMO will always be tweaked, just be happy they didn't pull a SWG and changed the mechanics for the usual EQ mechanics.
I think it was more to please new gamers in general than just casual ones in this case. And making the games better for new players do make some sense if they had problems with that before.
Well, I agree to some point. It do suck when you have to do a lot of work to get something and the company just nerfs it to be easy later. But that is happening in all MMOs 'cept Eve.
All games should reward faithful veterans. Avi really should make a system for that, most games have.
But you must also understand that a MMO will always be tweaked, just be happy they didn't pull a SWG and changed the mechanics for the usual EQ mechanics.
I think it was more to please new gamers in general than just casual ones in this case. And making the games better for new players do make some sense if they had problems with that before.
I think we're pretty much on the same page, I don't have a problem with developers changing or 'tweaking' their game. They have all the right to do so, but if that change will affect a certain group within the game to a great extent, compensate them. Give them items, free playtime, or something. Of course some people will never be happy, but extending an olive branch shows that the developer is concerned about the community within their game, and I think that goes a long way.
Once again, I haven't played Darkfall. So I am not familiar with the specifics, but as I said previoulsy, I know how it feels.
Is that really the casual gamers fault? Just like you do they want to have fun.
If the devs change their games to cater another crowd, who is to blame?
I do however not really agree that grinding is what makes a game hardcore or not, in that case would Lineage 2 be the most hardcore game ever...
There is a difference between difficult and forcing players to do the same thing a over and over, no matter if we talk PvE or PvP.
The existence of grind or the lack thereof is not the issue here. The issue is that some players spent far longer to achive what newer players are achieving with far less time investment. Now, I won't disagree with you that what makes a game hardcore or not isn't the grind, but allowing certain players to do less of it and then allowed the same reward - that's cheap.
In a way it is the casual gamer's fault, they have plenty of games to play. The hardcore amongst us do not have so many options, and when a developer chooses to stupidify their game to make it 'easier' for casuals that pisses the hardcore players off. You keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter, and I will keep my peanut butter out of your chocolate.
If they wanted to reduce grind, I'm fine with that, but not at the expense of the veteran players. The veterans shouldn't have been compensated in some way.
This applies to everything in live, the forerunners have always harder trials to take than the followers. Another Element applies also always: Beeing a Forerunner gives you the unique chance to enjoy benefits far earlier then those who follow, those vets bathed in glory for a long time and noone could dethrone them but as casualization comes more reach their heighs and in exchange new players won't be able to become almighty vets as their followers will have casualization right from the start unlike the followers of the first vets who had plenty of time until casualization kicked in. You see it's not really that unfair. Besides that one can only hope that character stats ain't the only thing that keeps the vets afloat, should've learned something playing for such a long time.
This applies to everything in live, the forerunners have always harder trials to take than the followers. Another Element applies also always: Beeing a Forerunner gives you the unique chance to enjoy benefits far earlier then those who follow, those vets bathed in glory for a long time and noone could dethrone them but as casualization comes more reach their heighs and in exchange new players won't be able to become almighty vets as their followers will have casualization right from the start unlike the followers of the first vets who had plenty of time until casualization kicked in. You see it's not really that unfair. Besides that one can only hope that character stats ain't the only thing that keeps the vets afloat, should've learned something playing for such a long time.
Eh, I can disagree with you, and I can do it using something from the casual's playbook. A game is not real life, but furthermore everyone is paying the same amount per month, and the risk vs reward, or the time vs reward should be equal for everyone. Or if that's not possible, you compensate the offended party (within reason of course).
Eh, I can disagree with you, and I can do it using something from the casual's playbook. A game is not real life, but furthermore everyone is paying the same amount per month, and the risk vs reward, or the time vs reward should be equal for everyone. Or if that's not possible, you compensate the offended party (within reason of course).
So, in truth, it really is unfair.
Perhaps i was unclear, the compensation for their time is the power they had, of couse it won't last forever, but their status is what they gained for their invested time, compensation took already place -they were granted extraordinary powers for a long time.
Perhaps i was unclear, the compensation for their time is the power they had, of couse it won't last forever, but their status is what they gained for their invested time, compensation took already place -they were granted extraordinary powers for a long time.
I feel as though that's a copout, for lack of a better word. I will agree that the differential between veterans and new players is a problem, but that's true in every game. I don't know if it's possible to create a system wherein neither party is eventually offended by some change in the game. To say though, that the veterans were compensated for the change because they had their turn to be "King of the Mountain" is somewhat unconciliatory. I say that because what is to prevent the next group of veterans from having the same thing done to them via the next 'tweak'. If that is the case, there will be a heavy and continuous rollover in the game's playerbase, and which will never allow a constant group of veterans. I think we can agree is not a good thing, after all they are not politicians. I may have high ideals, but I think that veterans have a responsibility to help beginners in any MMO. Moreover, they should not be getting their kicks from greifing, and perhaps those that do should be delt with on an individual basis.
I will agree though that more time should have been spent in the development phase of the game to reduce (as much as possible) the gap between eventual veterans and beginners. But even then, that still brings up the argument of dumbing down the game, which angered me so much to start with.
I assume that it all depends on the community within the game.
Well there are to sides to "dumbing it down", one side is the grind and ease of access to top gear for fresh players, that got easier, recent patch made aquiring high level equipment easier, the other side, player skill, got actually raised. In a recent patch magic aoe was changed so that it doesn't deal flat damage in the whole area of effect but takes distance to the centre in account, now mages have to start aiming to be successfull.
So the patch set players more even in their tools while raising the skill cap for your aiming as a mage.
I think that realbigdeal guy has got to be a troll. I only see him post in public section on DF forums and he says the most rediculous things, I don't even bother arguing with him as its obvious he doesn't play the game or know how it really works.
I played DF before. I left the game for the same reason as the others. The grind. Now, i am planning to come back. Its not because i left the game and still posting about that mean i am a troll. You are a troll yourself because you say you will probably leave the game when we all no its not true.
It's not about pvp for me, matter of fact I'm an industrialist/crafter. My concern is spelled about below.
I am playing Eve, I've been playing it for five years. I haven't played DarkFall, but I recognize the situation. I lived through the SWG fiasco. I am here in defense of the Original Poster, not so much for the PVP aspect, but because the developers are screwing veteran players.
First you say its the casuals that piss you off.. but now its the developers..
which is it?
both?
Don't blame the casual player, he can bitch and whine on the forums all he wants, that probably won't change much. But when that same player stops his sub, and the developer comes to the astounding realization that his game isn't making the money he thought/wants/needs, well then... Now the developer realizes there aren't enough "hardcore" to keep his game operational.
Lets call it "survival of the fittest".. Aparently hardcore gamers aren't the alphas they pressume they are.
Theres clearly not enough fans of this type of game to line the developers pockets.. As someone said earlier, a lot of people don't like the idea of being someones bitch for the next 6 months while paying 15$/month.. Blame who you want..
Giving vets free items in game as compensation isn't really going to cut the mustard either, i think we both know that..
I played it for awhile and I stopped my sub.. I play MMOs for PvP, i loved UO.. Getting roflstomped in noob areas was expected, not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel is what turned me off. Call me casual, carebear,noob whatever you like, but thats it in a nutshell.
I've been playing for 1.2 years and AV has screwed me out of my time investment 4 times now. Some of us original Darkfall players have spent so much time developing our chars, only to have AV make a patch that makes it 10x easier or handing out advantages that took several months to attain.
its not about 1v1 its about not losing just b/c you are outnumbered by 1. Only ignoramuses actually think most vets go around killing newbs all day.
AV has caved to the whiners and this means they will continue to cave.
Its like being in a yearlong weightlifting competition and training for 12 months and then they change the rules and start giving the new competitors steroids and attactching weights to those who actually put forth the effort.
someday you people may wish you could 2v1 for all the time you have invested into your character but you wil never be able to because everyone has 450 hp and you can't possibly go through all that HP before two guys go through yours.
soloing in Darkfall is dead, character progression as part of the competition is also dead and they are allowing the noobs and whiners to compete with the best and that is the reason that I don't play WoW.
Time for this competitive gamer to start looking for another game.
Thanks for the great times AV, its a shame you didn't learn the lesson that SWG had to learn about what happens when you cater to that vocal minority of whiners and bads.
"I'm glad that people are going to be more competitive a lot quicker, but honestly it kinda sucks that anybody that has put zero effort into their character can just naked rush you with 400 HP and a melee weapon. Fighting outnumbered is going to be a pain in the ass."
Quoted for truth from DF forums. GG AV. The winers will just move onto the next thing and you will continue to piss off your base.
edit: retort before you even type:
when they start giving steroids to the crybabies b/c they don't want to do any heavy liften when the game has such a large untapped populaceae its a shame b/c the people who have been around since the beggining and worked to develop their characters so they wouldnt get owned everytime they saw two guys will probably be put off by this and may even quit.
the game was part of the competition and now its turning into CS with full loot and sieges. Not competitive enough for me when they have to increase character progression 4x b/c the masses can't deal with it. Devs got greedy, its really a shame for those who loved DF the way it was. It seems like they have given up on their vision and are now working towards mass appeal. GFG AV, GFG.
many of these children think that DF is a 1v1 game apparently. They cannot seem to comprehend that there needs to be a solo pvp playstyle that is able to beat 2v1 at least or competitive gamers will say fuck this and play CS b/c its not fun losing to idiots just b/c they outnumber you by 1, that is WoW.
And all shall fall by the grace of the people - anon
Frankly "old timers" complaining about changes makes me laugh. Did you ever really consider how these changes IMPROVE the game? Further to assert you are a old timer and invested a tremendous amount of time into your character is laughable at best. The only thing "old timer" in DFO is typically associated with is people whom early on exploited the game to gain tremendous advantage over all those whom stumbled along later. And the only logical reason you are upset as a result is, you cannot run around and roll everyone anymore.
It's not about pvp for me, matter of fact I'm an industrialist/crafter. My concern is spelled about below.
I am playing Eve, I've been playing it for five years. I haven't played DarkFall, but I recognize the situation. I lived through the SWG fiasco. I am here in defense of the Original Poster, not so much for the PVP aspect, but because the developers are screwing veteran players.
First you say its the casuals that piss you off.. but now its the developers..
which is it?
both?
Don't blame the casual player, he can bitch and whine on the forums all he wants, that probably won't change much. But when that same player stops his sub, and the developer comes to the astounding realization that his game isn't making the money he thought/wants/needs, well then... Now the developer realizes there aren't enough "hardcore" to keep his game operational.
Lets call it "survival of the fittest".. Aparently hardcore gamers aren't the alphas they pressume they are.
Theres clearly not enough fans of this type of game to line the developers pockets.. As someone said earlier, a lot of people don't like the idea of being someones bitch for the next 6 months while paying 15$/month.. Blame who you want..
Giving vets free items in game as compensation isn't really going to cut the mustard either, i think we both know that..
I played it for awhile and I stopped my sub.. I play MMOs for PvP, i loved UO.. Getting roflstomped in noob areas was expected, not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel is what turned me off. Call me casual, carebear,noob whatever you like, but thats it in a nutshell.
This applies to everything in live, the forerunners have always harder trials to take than the followers. Another Element applies also always: Beeing a Forerunner gives you the unique chance to enjoy benefits far earlier then those who follow, those vets bathed in glory for a long time and noone could dethrone them but as casualization comes more reach their heighs and in exchange new players won't be able to become almighty vets as their followers will have casualization right from the start unlike the followers of the first vets who had plenty of time until casualization kicked in. You see it's not really that unfair. Besides that one can only hope that character stats ain't the only thing that keeps the vets afloat, should've learned something playing for such a long time.
Eh, I can disagree with you, and I can do it using something from the casual's playbook. A game is not real life, but furthermore everyone is paying the same amount per month, and the risk vs reward, or the time vs reward should be equal for everyone. Or if that's not possible, you compensate the offended party (within reason of course).
So, in truth, it really is unfair.
There is no risk of losing stats and skills so your arugment is invalid.
After all, we dont have any problems with skill grind and items grind. Problem we have is stats grind. Players who played DF since the 1st day teal today cannot even compete one vs one vs vets that played since day one who macroed and cheated at the same time. You see, DF vets that are really strong on pvp are macroers.
So the unfair part is between macroers and legit players.
IF there had to be skills and stats point loss, it would not bother me at all. Vets in their part would still cry once they get back to average player skill/stats because of decay. Skill stats cap and decay was suppose to be in at release. Right after beta, vets did their best to make the devs cancel the caps and decay because they did not want to lose their hard work. This is where us casual gamers started to whine about the game.
Instead of whining and staying like most of you players who want the grind back do, we whined and left the game. DF started to bleeding from subs each months. They had no choice, they had to reduce the grind. Now, grind had been fix and DF will be perfect after the upcoming expansion.
Comments
someone said that in UO you can max your character in a few weeks. That would not be acceptable to me (the first type of gamer I described). I explain again that the first type of gamer turns the computer off once max is reached. The progression IS the game not a means to the game. End gamers the progression is just a barrier to the game.
I just think both sides could be MUCH happier if they existed in seperate games from each other to be honest. I think I am advocating a two state solution here.
What I find intresting is how gamers who like fast progress do not see the HUGE advantage to their fun factor for a game that has no skill progression at all. No barriers peroid. why inst that appealing to those gamers?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Isnt there some asian grinders which doesnt have any limit at all? They last endless. That game would fit you by far more then DF.
Let me remind you that devs originaly never ment to create DF without any sort of caps. I dont know what was the point which made them to change their opinion? Forced to release? No money? Dont know and i guess no one except them will ever know it. There were a lot of discussion about it, with all the pros / cons.
Ive got still one question, do you think there would have been 200 000 players interessted in DF beta (stated by AV themself) or even 1 000 000 millions uniq clicks a bit more then year ago, if they would have told from start on, that DF would be Lineage 2 style instead of UO style game?
I doubt it. If devs wouldnt advertise this game as pvp (only), there wouldnt have been QQ orgy. You just need to check the main page of the darkfall. There is not a single word mentioned about PvE and the grind (progression for you) but only pvp (which actually is the endgame).
EvE doors
See the best doors on EvE-on!
lol the problem is if those that this would appeal to left DFO would lost most of the rest of it's player base. You have to know that most that stay in DFO are there for the PvP. DFO isn't a good PvE MMO, it doesn't have much of any sandbox features. It's draw was PvP and the possibility for war in a persistent fantasy world.
From my experience and simply in my opinion the ones you are asking to go find another game are the ones that have been keeping DFO afloat.
Again if you want to keep the grind and long term progression in a traditional RPG sense there are plenty of other MMO's that offer that and do it it better. For those in DFO for the PvP and the wars in a persistent fantasy world there really isn't another option. Where would they go? You may not like your other options but unlike them you do have plenty of options.
And in any case.... yes you can Max out your char in UO in a relatively short amount of time. The thing is lets say you pick a tamer right? You then tame pets. It takes a week for a pet to bond. After it bonds you then have to train your pet's skills.
On top of that you are constantly reworking your toons template. You may want to try Spell Weaving with Chivalry and Swords. You may then decide that since you've done that for awhile you may want to play Chiv and Bushido. Then you may decide you would like to be an archer instead of swords.
While the skill cap can be reached in a short amount of time your toon continued to evolve and change. It was never ending because of all the different combinations you could have. Finding a single piece of jewelry could change how you wanted your template.
I will agree with you though... I have found a game that gives me the PvP and skips the asinine PvE grind that I've come to loath. I got hooked on APB. So you are right about some finding enjoyment by simply moving on to a game that does offer what DFO originally claimed it offered.
The question is.... will DFO do very well if they do move on? How many do you think stay in DFO because they enjoy the PvE grind progression?
Stop using the word carebear when you obviously dont know for what it stand for.
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UO example was good one - how to create months of "progression", while keeping PvP balanced. EvE follows similar model.
In DF we have about 500 skills. Does this mean that we need 2 years to get ready for PvP, and there is WoW-style PvE progression ?
There is no way to use all skills during PvP encounter. And almost all skills have dimnishing returns - getting 70% of gains requires 30% of grinding. Heavy armor makes 90% of magic skills meaningless. Destroyer or indestructible spec just blocks all high magic - so you can't even try to cast spell.
Grinders constantly look for a way to get advantage through inbalances / loopholes. After each patch they try new skills to find new overlooked, overpowered tactics. It's constant battle between them and AV designers. Few examples:
AFK swimming - defeated by nonlinear HP gains, grinding all weapons to 50 - global cooldown on whirlwinds, multiple magic schools at 100 - global cooldown on R50 / R90 / R100, multiple surging R50 / R90 - AOE damage nerf, surging unburden allowing for plate mages - unburden lasts 10 seconds and has 30 seconds cooldown, grinding Eye Rot to 75 - cooldown increased to 30 seconds, grinding Witches Brew to 100 - spell radius increases with spell level, etc, etc.
Tasos and Claus talked a lot about "no-grind philosophy" for many years of DF development. It means that they don't care how many hours players will invest into leveling all rays to surging (new mage template) - if they'll decide that this is too OP, they'll nerf it to hell, effectively cancelling any "progress" that some players may have made.
So the only PvE progression that exists in DF is leveling current OP skills to 100 - and enjoying unfair advantage until AV will nerf them to useful, but not really necessary level, making you feel that you just wasted a lot of time.
Everyone, listen to this. Its better to boycott rather then being loyal.
Most of us DF followers was looking impatiently for DF release. WE readed all the feature. At release, feature that made darkfall seem like the best sandbox game didnt had all of that. It was super grindy since the start, no cap, no decay = no longterm equality.
What we did, boycott the game and complain on the forum. IT worked so it was obvious that AV had to change the game.
You so called loyal players are selfish. You come in here speaking like noble men thinking like AV think about you guys. AV dont care for all of you loyal players if you are not ready to put more money into it. Anyway, you call yourself loyal players. So its obvious that you wont leave the game no matter what AV do to it. Will you loyal player boycott DF only so they can add the huge grind again? No. So we won, you lost.
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I think that realbigdeal guy has got to be a troll. I only see him post in public section on DF forums and he says the most rediculous things, I don't even bother arguing with him as its obvious he doesn't play the game or know how it really works.
currently playing: Darkfall, EVE, SC2
Damn, you casual players really piss me off. A company creates a game with a certain level of difficulty wherein it takes a certain amount of time to achieve endgame and survive. Some players who put the time in, achieve that, but in order to reward them the developers dumb down and 'stupidify' the game so that you casuals don't have to 'grind'. How is that fair to those original players who spend far more time to achieve that same effect? Simple, it isn't. So the game may have more subscribers, but in the end the game's community goes to hell. Eight million kiddies running around spewing leetspeek is no substitute for three hundred thousand compitent and mature players.
This is almost the exact same scenario that occured in SWG when the players who put in the time to complete the hologrind for Jedi, were rewarded with newer players being able to complete the same thing far easier via the Village, or 'instantly' in the NGE. All because, someone was obsessed with the being a 'hero'. Whaa! I want my glowstick NOW!
I hate grind, but I do respect someone who put the time in to become the best. I can't speak for pvp, because I neither participate in it, nor enjoy it. So I won't go there. But I will say that if you suck at pvp, that isn't the games fault. Maybe you should spend a bit more time playing the game and not quite so much on facebook telling people what you ate for lunch.
However, MMOs are not single player games. They are designed so that you can't 'win' in two days. If you have a problem with that, go back to your PS3.
Is that really the casual gamers fault? Just like you do they want to have fun.
If the devs change their games to cater another crowd, who is to blame?
I do however not really agree that grinding is what makes a game hardcore or not, in that case would Lineage 2 be the most hardcore game ever...
There is a difference between difficult and forcing players to do the same thing a over and over, no matter if we talk PvE or PvP.
Is it my fault that you guys were stupid enough to actually sit there and grind for attribute skill ups instead of giving the devs shit early on so it could have gotten changed faster.
This is why I wait 3-6 months to play a mmo after release because i know the pathetic grind will be nerfed and ill be kicking your ass while doing 1/3 the work you did.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Originally posted by Loke666:
Is that really the casual gamers fault? Just like you do they want to have fun.
If the devs change their games to cater another crowd, who is to blame?
I do however not really agree that grinding is what makes a game hardcore or not, in that case would Lineage 2 be the most hardcore game ever...
There is a difference between difficult and forcing players to do the same thing a over and over, no matter if we talk PvE or PvP.
The existence of grind or the lack thereof is not the issue here. The issue is that some players spent far longer to achive what newer players are achieving with far less time investment. Now, I won't disagree with you that what makes a game hardcore or not isn't the grind, but allowing certain players to do less of it and then allowed the same reward - that's cheap.
In a way it is the casual gamer's fault, they have plenty of games to play. The hardcore amongst us do not have so many options, and when a developer chooses to stupidify their game to make it 'easier' for casuals that pisses the hardcore players off. You keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter, and I will keep my peanut butter out of your chocolate.
If they wanted to reduce grind, I'm fine with that, but not at the expense of the veteran players. The veterans should've been compensated in some way.
If you want a 'Hardcore' mmo where you can do literally anything to anyone if you know how to...
Why the hell are you not playing EvE?
Originally posted by: LordofTime:
If you want a 'Hardcore' mmo where you can do literally anything to anyone if you know how to...
Why the hell are you not playing EvE?
It's not about pvp for me, matter of fact I'm an industrialist/crafter. My concern is spelled about below.
I am playing Eve, I've been playing it for five years. I haven't played DarkFall, but I recognize the situation. I lived through the SWG fiasco. I am here in defense of the Original Poster, not so much for the PVP aspect, but because the developers are screwing veteran players.
Well, I agree to some point. It do suck when you have to do a lot of work to get something and the company just nerfs it to be easy later. But that is happening in all MMOs 'cept Eve.
All games should reward faithful veterans. Avi really should make a system for that, most games have.
But you must also understand that a MMO will always be tweaked, just be happy they didn't pull a SWG and changed the mechanics for the usual EQ mechanics.
I think it was more to please new gamers in general than just casual ones in this case. And making the games better for new players do make some sense if they had problems with that before.
Originally posted by Loke666:
Well, I agree to some point. It do suck when you have to do a lot of work to get something and the company just nerfs it to be easy later. But that is happening in all MMOs 'cept Eve.
All games should reward faithful veterans. Avi really should make a system for that, most games have.
But you must also understand that a MMO will always be tweaked, just be happy they didn't pull a SWG and changed the mechanics for the usual EQ mechanics.
I think it was more to please new gamers in general than just casual ones in this case. And making the games better for new players do make some sense if they had problems with that before.
I think we're pretty much on the same page, I don't have a problem with developers changing or 'tweaking' their game. They have all the right to do so, but if that change will affect a certain group within the game to a great extent, compensate them. Give them items, free playtime, or something. Of course some people will never be happy, but extending an olive branch shows that the developer is concerned about the community within their game, and I think that goes a long way.
Once again, I haven't played Darkfall. So I am not familiar with the specifics, but as I said previoulsy, I know how it feels.
This applies to everything in live, the forerunners have always harder trials to take than the followers. Another Element applies also always: Beeing a Forerunner gives you the unique chance to enjoy benefits far earlier then those who follow, those vets bathed in glory for a long time and noone could dethrone them but as casualization comes more reach their heighs and in exchange new players won't be able to become almighty vets as their followers will have casualization right from the start unlike the followers of the first vets who had plenty of time until casualization kicked in. You see it's not really that unfair. Besides that one can only hope that character stats ain't the only thing that keeps the vets afloat, should've learned something playing for such a long time.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Originally posted by Aison2:
This applies to everything in live, the forerunners have always harder trials to take than the followers. Another Element applies also always: Beeing a Forerunner gives you the unique chance to enjoy benefits far earlier then those who follow, those vets bathed in glory for a long time and noone could dethrone them but as casualization comes more reach their heighs and in exchange new players won't be able to become almighty vets as their followers will have casualization right from the start unlike the followers of the first vets who had plenty of time until casualization kicked in. You see it's not really that unfair. Besides that one can only hope that character stats ain't the only thing that keeps the vets afloat, should've learned something playing for such a long time.
Eh, I can disagree with you, and I can do it using something from the casual's playbook. A game is not real life, but furthermore everyone is paying the same amount per month, and the risk vs reward, or the time vs reward should be equal for everyone. Or if that's not possible, you compensate the offended party (within reason of course).
So, in truth, it really is unfair.
Perhaps i was unclear, the compensation for their time is the power they had, of couse it won't last forever, but their status is what they gained for their invested time, compensation took already place -they were granted extraordinary powers for a long time.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Originally posted by Aison2:
Perhaps i was unclear, the compensation for their time is the power they had, of couse it won't last forever, but their status is what they gained for their invested time, compensation took already place -they were granted extraordinary powers for a long time.
I feel as though that's a copout, for lack of a better word. I will agree that the differential between veterans and new players is a problem, but that's true in every game. I don't know if it's possible to create a system wherein neither party is eventually offended by some change in the game. To say though, that the veterans were compensated for the change because they had their turn to be "King of the Mountain" is somewhat unconciliatory. I say that because what is to prevent the next group of veterans from having the same thing done to them via the next 'tweak'. If that is the case, there will be a heavy and continuous rollover in the game's playerbase, and which will never allow a constant group of veterans. I think we can agree is not a good thing, after all they are not politicians. I may have high ideals, but I think that veterans have a responsibility to help beginners in any MMO. Moreover, they should not be getting their kicks from greifing, and perhaps those that do should be delt with on an individual basis.
I will agree though that more time should have been spent in the development phase of the game to reduce (as much as possible) the gap between eventual veterans and beginners. But even then, that still brings up the argument of dumbing down the game, which angered me so much to start with.
I assume that it all depends on the community within the game.
Well there are to sides to "dumbing it down", one side is the grind and ease of access to top gear for fresh players, that got easier, recent patch made aquiring high level equipment easier, the other side, player skill, got actually raised. In a recent patch magic aoe was changed so that it doesn't deal flat damage in the whole area of effect but takes distance to the centre in account, now mages have to start aiming to be successfull.
So the patch set players more even in their tools while raising the skill cap for your aiming as a mage.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I played DF before. I left the game for the same reason as the others. The grind. Now, i am planning to come back. Its not because i left the game and still posting about that mean i am a troll. You are a troll yourself because you say you will probably leave the game when we all no its not true.
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First you say its the casuals that piss you off.. but now its the developers..
which is it?
both?
Don't blame the casual player, he can bitch and whine on the forums all he wants, that probably won't change much. But when that same player stops his sub, and the developer comes to the astounding realization that his game isn't making the money he thought/wants/needs, well then... Now the developer realizes there aren't enough "hardcore" to keep his game operational.
Lets call it "survival of the fittest".. Aparently hardcore gamers aren't the alphas they pressume they are.
Theres clearly not enough fans of this type of game to line the developers pockets.. As someone said earlier, a lot of people don't like the idea of being someones bitch for the next 6 months while paying 15$/month.. Blame who you want..
Giving vets free items in game as compensation isn't really going to cut the mustard either, i think we both know that..
I played it for awhile and I stopped my sub.. I play MMOs for PvP, i loved UO.. Getting roflstomped in noob areas was expected, not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel is what turned me off. Call me casual, carebear,noob whatever you like, but thats it in a nutshell.
Frankly "old timers" complaining about changes makes me laugh. Did you ever really consider how these changes IMPROVE the game? Further to assert you are a old timer and invested a tremendous amount of time into your character is laughable at best. The only thing "old timer" in DFO is typically associated with is people whom early on exploited the game to gain tremendous advantage over all those whom stumbled along later. And the only logical reason you are upset as a result is, you cannot run around and roll everyone anymore.
Outstanding post.
There is no risk of losing stats and skills so your arugment is invalid.
After all, we dont have any problems with skill grind and items grind. Problem we have is stats grind. Players who played DF since the 1st day teal today cannot even compete one vs one vs vets that played since day one who macroed and cheated at the same time. You see, DF vets that are really strong on pvp are macroers.
So the unfair part is between macroers and legit players.
IF there had to be skills and stats point loss, it would not bother me at all. Vets in their part would still cry once they get back to average player skill/stats because of decay. Skill stats cap and decay was suppose to be in at release. Right after beta, vets did their best to make the devs cancel the caps and decay because they did not want to lose their hard work. This is where us casual gamers started to whine about the game.
Instead of whining and staying like most of you players who want the grind back do, we whined and left the game. DF started to bleeding from subs each months. They had no choice, they had to reduce the grind. Now, grind had been fix and DF will be perfect after the upcoming expansion.
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