And still, this does not explain in any way, shape, or form, the players who are in PvP games, who go out of their way to harrass other players via the game mechanics. Corpse camping, stalking, etc. To the point where it's almost as if they want the other person to quit the game.
This. This right here.
I believe that this is the root of the evil, that gives PvPers a bad name.
I believe that if you're going to fight someone, it needs to be within the games' terms.
Hate me for being a douchebag, a low-level killer, or a big-headed, self serving bastard all you like.
But, I take that all with a smile, knowing that i've never taken advantage over a glitch, hack, or other questionable means to achieve my victory.
Who cares?
So you've never cheated, wooo. Here's a pat on the back for you, lol.
In case you missed it, you're not supposed to cheat. Playing by the rules is the defacto standard behavior for the well-adjusted majority, so therefore it's not something that you should be celebrating as a newsworthy accomplishment. It's kind of like congratulating yourself for taking a dump in the toilet instead of on the kitchen floor. "Hell yeah, look at me, I'm the man, I did what I was supposed to do." /flex.
Guys like you crack me up, you make a big deal out of 'not cheating' while you're going around intentionally being a dickhead to people you know have no chance of competing with you. Very honorable indeed, lol.
And still, this does not explain in any way, shape, or form, the players who are in PvP games, who go out of their way to harrass other players via the game mechanics. Corpse camping, stalking, etc. To the point where it's almost as if they want the other person to quit the game.
This. This right here.
I believe that this is the root of the evil, that gives PvPers a bad name.
I believe that if you're going to fight someone, it needs to be within the games' terms.
Hate me for being a douchebag, a low-level killer, or a big-headed, self serving bastard all you like.
But, I take that all with a smile, knowing that i've never taken advantage over a glitch, hack, or other questionable means to achieve my victory.
Pvpers don't have a bad name. Where did you get that. It needs to be within game's term? But it is. If the game allows it then it's something normal. Is not a glitch or a hack. If you don't like it then roll a pve server or pick some other game that avoids that.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
One high player ganking a lowbie is nothing really but It do piss low players off but try being a lowbie and ganked by a full damn team of high players "AoC" now that will make any lowbie quit and move on. I was that low lvl of 13 in AoC and was being harrash and torture by lvl 25s in a group but I did not quit the game "can not do that, its a great game" I just quit that area for leveling and stuck with none pvp zones to lvl. Got my payback at lvl 25 but still had to deal with a massive zerge of ganking that can not defend by them self and whats really fuck up is the fact we have really good pvpers that don't even need a team to kickass but they still roll in groups with the sorry as pvpers is a major fail.
You stuck in there, and gave it hell, no matter what because of your love of the game, and eventually got your revenge.
The world needs more players like this. People who don't quit so easily, instead of just giving up at the drop of a hat. People who understand that 'yes, i'm going to die', but tighten their belts and forge ahead.
+1 to you, sir.
Outnumbered 12 to 1 in an open PvP area? Hah!! I like those odds! Bring it on!
Becaus in real life you'd have your pansy ass handed to you, but in the game you can be a "bad ass pvper".
That's why you gank.
Eyes, your lack of understanding of the design of the game does not constitute psychological issues on Dirk's part.
While psychological issues may be too strong a term, douchebag is not. I really get tired of seeing the 'that's the way the game was designed' argument, as it's not really an argument but a lame excuse for people treating other people like shit.
Yes, you can gank a lowbie if the game allows it, just like you can cut in line at the grocery store or any number of other inconsiderate actions that aren't technically illegal. Should you, though?
Clearly, if you're a richard-head like the OP, the answer is yes. Not only that, but you should also illustrate your narcissicism by posting about it.
Ganking is not a complex behavioral pattern that requires any sort of explanation, least of all from the tin ganker. It's an act of selfish douchebaggery, nothing more, nothing less, and everyone here already knows this.
I hate that argument too, its right up there with "she dresses sexy, she deserved to get raped". Gankers are part of the new generation of young men who have had the rug pulled out from under them. Its not PC to be a man anymore, and all those ways boys used to take their natural aggression out on each other plays out in MMOs. You cant throw a rubber playground ball at someones head in gym class anymore, you can't brawl with your friends at school with getting expelled, hell whens the last time you saw a decent male role model for our young men?
Of course this generation is going to act out, theyre practically neutered in every other aspect.
I will agree with boys being neutered today. Part of it is due to our PC society that aggression is bad. Uncontrolled aggression is bad but their is nothing wrong with fueling men's competitive nature. Though why pick on the weak whether in game or rl? What is the point if there is no challenge? Personally I prefer to be challenged and earn the win.
Becaus in real life you'd have your pansy ass handed to you, but in the game you can be a "bad ass pvper".
That's why you gank.
Eyes, your lack of understanding of the design of the game does not constitute psychological issues on Dirk's part.
While psychological issues may be too strong a term, douchebag is not. I really get tired of seeing the 'that's the way the game was designed' argument, as it's not really an argument but a lame excuse for people treating other people like shit.
Yes, you can gank a lowbie if the game allows it, just like you can cut in line at the grocery store or any number of other inconsiderate actions that aren't technically illegal. Should you, though?
Clearly, if you're a richard-head like the OP, the answer is yes. Not only that, but you should also illustrate your narcissicism by posting about it.
Ganking is not a complex behavioral pattern that requires any sort of explanation, least of all from the ganker. It's an act of selfish douchebaggery, nothing more, nothing less, and everyone here already knows this.
Whoa there. It seems like the ones who are riled up are working on the assumption we are talking about actively hunting low-level players or doing anything remotely inconsiderate.
If there is a PvP zone and you have the enemy trapped in that zone, will you allow low level players through to bring them supplies?
If the group trying to conquer a territory is low level players, will you allow them to conquer because you are higher level?
If a low level player is gathering resources that he will be using to sell to your enemy or to build equipment for your enemy, do you leave him be or attack him?
The OP stated coming across a low level by chance and furhter added that he looked forward to seeing that player again when they were higher level. From the responses several of you gave,
Did I missed an edit - Were the parts I just mentioned added in to replace some section about how he is a Level 60 Nelf who delights in ganking and teabagging level 20's in Tarren Mill and Stranglethorn?
Not every MMO is a WOW PvP server. And to those of you still upset you were PK'd in UO... that was 12 years ago. That wound should have long since healed. There's too much over-reaction to statements based on scenarios the OP didn't present in any context other than to say he doesn't do it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One high player ganking a lowbie is nothing really but It do piss low players off but try being a lowbie and ganked by a full damn team of high players "AoC" now that will make any lowbie quit and move on. I was that low lvl of 13 in AoC and was being harrash and torture by lvl 25s in a group but I did not quit the game "can not do that, its a great game" I just quit that area for leveling and stuck with none pvp zones to lvl. Got my payback at lvl 25 but still had to deal with a massive zerge of ganking that can not defend by them self and whats really fuck up is the fact we have really good pvpers that don't even need a team to kickass but they still roll in groups with the sorry as pvpers is a major fail.
You stuck in there, and gave it hell, no matter what because of your love of the game, and eventually got your revenge.
The world needs more players like this. People who don't quit so easily, instead of just giving up at the drop of a hat. People who understand that 'yes, i'm going to die', but tighten their belts and forge ahead.
+1 to you, sir.
Outnumbered 12 to 1 in an open PvP area? Hah!! I like those odds! Bring it on!
You should have played on the good aligned team in EQs prime on the Sullon Zek server. I was on the smallest of the 3 factions, and you were never able to progress as far as the other two teams. They had far better gear, and the good alignment was nearly pounded out of existance. At one point there were less than 50 everyday players on our team while neutral and evil sported hundreds. You didnt win on the good aligned team, that was a fact.
I had the same attitude as you, never give up, goonies never say die, what a crock of shit. Looking back it was the same ego boosting justification as winning. "Im superior because ill take an asswhooping every day for 5 years straight and not quit"
Its too bad "pvp'rs" cant apply their attitudes as well in real life, can you imagine how great America's future would be if our kids had that attitude in a more constructive setting?
The one thing Ive always noticed in PvP games, gankers are terrible when it counts. Shadowbane for example, the "gankers" werent nearly as good as the players who actively spent more time in groups. When it came to bane time, or mine fights, I hated having the "gankers" in my group, they were always subpar comparitively and often times sabotaged the effort.
No thanks to gankers, when its crunch time, theyre a liability.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
Becaus in real life you'd have your pansy ass handed to you, but in the game you can be a "bad ass pvper".
That's why you gank.
Eyes, your lack of understanding of the design of the game does not constitute psychological issues on Dirk's part.
While psychological issues may be too strong a term, douchebag is not. I really get tired of seeing the 'that's the way the game was designed' argument, as it's not really an argument but a lame excuse for people treating other people like shit.
Yes, you can gank a lowbie if the game allows it, just like you can cut in line at the grocery store or any number of other inconsiderate actions that aren't technically illegal. Should you, though?
Clearly, if you're a richard-head like the OP, the answer is yes. Not only that, but you should also illustrate your narcissicism by posting about it.
Ganking is not a complex behavioral pattern that requires any sort of explanation, least of all from the ganker. It's an act of selfish douchebaggery, nothing more, nothing less, and everyone here already knows this.
Whoa there. It seems like the ones who are riled up are working on the assumption we are talking about actively hunting low-level players or doing anything remotely inconsiderate.
If there is a PvP zone and you have the enemy trapped in that zone, will you allow low level players through to bring them supplies?
If the group trying to conquer a territory is low level players, will you allow them to conquer because you are higher level?
If a low level player is gathering resources that he will be using to sell to your enemy or to build equipment for your enemy, do you leave him be or attack him?
The OP stated coming across a low level by chance and furhter added that he looked forward to seeing that player again when they were higher level. From the responses several of you gave,
Did I missed an edit - Were the parts I just mentioned added in to replace some section about how he is a Level 60 Nelf who delights in ganking and teabagging level 20's in Tarren Mill and Stranglethorn?
Not every MMO is a WOW PvP server. And to those of you still upset you were PK'd in UO... that was 12 years ago. That wound should have long since healed. There's too much over-reaction to statements based on scenarios the OP didn't present in any context other than to say he doesn't do it.
No one's upset about being ganked in UO. It happens to everyone. The thing I found amusing, and what motivated me to comment in this thread, is the OP's mistaken assumption that ganker behavior somehow needs an explanation.
It doesn't. It's one of the simplest mentalities around.
The majority of PvPers have the red=dead mindset because it's just easier to play that way. Actually taking the time/risk to find out if someone is really a threat to you or your faction is too challenging, and so they just kill anything that moves.
Also, the OP compouded the comedy by then trying to take credit for not cheating, making a big deal out of something that should be done as a matter of course and merits no congratulations.
Anyhow, keep it coming, this thread is hi-larious.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
I don't hate em like I'm going to get my gun and go kill em in real. Wtf lol. I hate that faction in the game and kill em in the game. Outside of it I have no problems whatsoever. Maybe hate is a big word and maybe I didn't explain it better. There is a tension though, little war thingie and it's fine because is just a game. It just gets more immersive like that.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
Lots of unsavory groups out there would love for everyone to be more like this. It would be far easier to recruit new members into their cult or militia. :P
I'm curious what the OP would be doing in a lower level zone that is, presumably, safe enough for a hypothetical lowbie to be hunting in, much less going afk as he states. Not that there aren't valid reasons to go to lower level areas... perhaps for a quest, perhaps to meet up with a friend, etc.. I'm just curious under what pretenses does the OP find himself wandering through low-level territories where he finds these players - even afk ones - "in the wrong place at the wrong time".
Secondly, I find attacking low level/newbie players unprovoked to be completely pointless and not at all representative of PvP. Sorry... it just isn't. It's pointless ganking for no gain other than the ganker's sense of "power over a weaker player". It holds no greater meaning or challenge than a level 20+ player killing level 1 mobs.
When I see a lower level player I don't knowk, I just ignore them... maybe I'll say hi or something if they say somethin first. Heck, I'll even offer some advice to help them out with getting into the game. I consider that to be far more a service to PvP MMOs than killing them because "they're in my line of sight", to "remind them it's a PvP MMO".
And oh yeah... the "they're in my line of sight" or "in the wrong place at the wrong time" rationalizations. Weak.
Really? A level 3 character who you happen upon in you travels through those "treacherous" low-level areas requires being attacked for "being in the wrong place at the wrong time?" Seriously? Someone you can likely one-shot is something "requiring your attention"? And you seriously think that's a reasonable justification for doing it?
Here's how I see it... If I happen to be in a lower level area - the odd quest has sent me there (this happened in L2 quite a lot, incidentally), or perhaps I'm going out to help a friend starting a new character or something... I happen to come across some low level characters working on leveling up... You know what I do? Run right by them. Why? Because there's absolutely no reason to attack them. They pose no threat, directly or indirectly. They know I can beat them. I know I can beat them. If I gank them, I'm not "teaching them a lesson" or "giving them a friendly reminder". I'm being a prick, killing them "because I can", plain and simple.
Some might say "Ahh... but they might become an enemy later and you're slowing down their progress!" Well, they might become an ally. They might become neutral. They might not even be playing the game anymore. Point is, they're not an enemy at that moment, they are not a threat, they are not a concern. There is no reason to gank them. Period.
There's also the consideration that it might be your first and/or only time ganking that individual. But what you wouldn't know is if they'd just been ganked by some other players numerous times earlier that day. They logged out from frustration of literally not being able to take more than 5 steps out of a safe zone without being dropped, and decided to come back later in hopes the gankers would be gone. They log back in thinking the coast is clear... and along you come, deciding to dispatch them "because they're in your line of sight", as a "friendly reminder that it's a PvP game". To them, you're just another ganker killing far weaker players because you can. The only lesson they're learning is "this game has a lot of douchebags who enjoy ganking lowbies for fun".
You know who I *do* go after? The idiots who gank lowbies/newbies. Why? Because I find it lame, and it's not at all supportive of a growing or even stable population. Pure PvP MMOs have a difficult time getting a lot of players as it is... People being chain-ganked - whether by the same person or by multiple people - as brand-new players who barely have the controls figured out is part of the reason. PvP MMOs need a healthy population to remain fun and competitive.. chasing players off (something many lowbie gankers take pride in) is not conducive to building or supporting a healthy population.
I also do it because I know that even for someone who enjoys PvP, getting ganked repeatedly when they have no chance to fight back is aggravating. It's not fun. It's not competitive - they have no chance of competing. It's just a headache that gets old pretty fast.
So... sorry... but being a fan of PvP myself, as far as I'm concerned - unless you are doing it to help stop new players from being ganked by some idiot (who will almost always run away or log out at the sign of someone they might lose to) - there is never a reason to gank someone in a lowbie/newbie area... If you're level 5 and they're level 3 and they have a fighting chance? Sure... see what happens. That would be actual PvP. But if they're level 3, and you're 10, 15, 20+? No way. There is no justification for it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
I don't hate em like I'm going to get my gun and go kill em in real. Wtf lol. I hate that faction in the game and kill em in the game. Outside of it I have no problems whatsoever. Maybe hate is a big word and maybe I didn't explain it better. There is a tension though, little war thingie and it's fine because is just a game. It just gets more immersive like that.
'Hate' is definetly a big word for something that is supposed to be a friendly competition.
In WoW I will often attack the opposite faction when they are flagged but I see it as part of a competition. I so it to see if I can win or if the other player can beat me. If I am actually attaching any stronger emotions to that then I am doing something wrong and should step back and reconsider my motivations. The two sides are just arbitrary divisions created for the sake of competition and any actions should be done in the spirit of that competition.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
I don't hate em like I'm going to get my gun and go kill em in real. Wtf lol. I hate that faction in the game and kill em in the game. Outside of it I have no problems whatsoever. Maybe hate is a big word and maybe I didn't explain it better. There is a tension though, little war thingie and it's fine because is just a game. It just gets more immersive like that.
'Hate' is definetly a big word for something that is supposed to be a friendly competition.
In WoW I will often attack the opposite faction when they are flagged but I see it as part of a competition. I so it to see if I can win or if the other player can beat me. If I am actually attaching any stronger emotions to that then I am doing something wrong and should step back and reconsider my motivations. The two sides are just arbitrary divisions created for the sake of competition and any actions should be done in the spirit of that competition.
Hate may be a big word but just have a look at the comments here. The way peoples call the gankers. All kind of offensive names because they killed their characters. That is pretty close to hate for me. These peoples are pissed off.
I don't know though if some games would be what they are if the gankers didn't exist. Someone mentioned Lineage 2 and that game is full of gankers. That however was the game's special flavor. Wandering around fearing that you'll get killed at any time.
I'm curious what the OP would be doing in a lower level zone that is...
And, again, you guys are creating some fictional scenario that he never presented.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Becaus in real life you'd have your pansy ass handed to you, but in the game you can be a "bad ass pvper".
That's why you gank.
Eyes, your lack of understanding of the design of the game does not constitute psychological issues on Dirk's part.
And yet, Dirk's psychological issues still stand firm.
How is it a psychological issue? The game makes certain areas PVP zone. If you enter one, you should be prepared for PvP. If there are no level restrictions and you enter that zone, it's normal that there will be people of higher levels there.
Your issue should be with the developers or, in most cases, with the people who are aware of the mechanics and rules of the game, do not like them, and still pay to play a game they won't enjoy despite fully knowing what they are getting into.
I played Aion. At level 29, I was getting attacked by characters I had no chance of defeating or evading. I unsubbed. I don't fault the players, because not only is the game designed to allow that but it is also designed to reward that.
The same with UO. When AoS reared its ugly head and PvP was gear dependent, I stopped PvPing. I didn't complain about getting ganked byPvPers, I just left the PvP areas.
Conversely, I enjoy the PvP mechanics of EVE and Lineage 2. I have plenty of ways to safeguard myself from or have achance against overwhelming PvP attacks.
Don't blame the players for playing the game as it is designed. Blame the players who know the design, do not like it and still play it to their own frustration and aggravation.
Game design is only one side of the arguement.
There are games, albeit fewer these days, where the game is open world FFA PvP, however it's not encouraged, simply a choice.
Back in the day, Ultima Online was a perfect example of this, in it's pre Trammel days. It was a very telling social experiment that proved that some people will behave their absolute worst when they can get away with it, or with minimal consequences.
And still, this does not explain in any way, shape, or form, the players who are in PvP games, who go out of their way to harrass other players via the game mechanics. Corpse camping, stalking, etc. To the point where it's almost as if they want the other person to quit the game.
Which is the truly ironic part about it, because it's usually these same players who complain there's not enough people around to kill, when they've driven everyone else off.
I agree with ceridith.
Its not so much the game mechanics, its the abuse of those mechanics but pvp = no rules whatsoever right? Crucify the victim, its his fault.
I'm curious what the OP would be doing in a lower level zone that is...
And, again, you guys are creating some fictional scenario that he never presented.
I think not.
Direct quote from the OP's first paragraph:
"So you're leveling up on your own, or perhaps just sitting idly somewhere, chatting with a friend, when suddenly it happens. Out of nowhere, someone who is much, much higher level than you strolls up to you and kills you with little effort."
His words. Not mine.
He is, by his own description, someone "much, much higher level than you" who strolls up and "kills you with little effort". He's clearly in a much lower level zone, as I don't imagine players would be "idly chatting with a friend" in an area that is "much, much higher level than they are". Or even if they are, they're still clearly "much, much lower level" than he... thus the rest of my post stands.
They pose no threat. They are not "in his way". He's not "giving them a friendly reminder". There is no justifiable reason to gank them other than because he can. He could have just as easily continued on his way and let them be, knowing he could dispatch them easily.
Nice try at spinning the details, but you should really make sure you know what you're saying first next time.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'm curious what the OP would be doing in a lower level zone that is...
And, again, you guys are creating some fictional scenario that he never presented.
I think not.
Direct quote from the OP's first paragraph:
"So you're leveling up on your own, or perhaps just sitting idly somewhere, chatting with a friend, when suddenly it happens. Out of nowhere, someone who is much, much higher level than you strolls up to you and kills you with little effort."
His words. Not mine.
He is, by his own description, someone "much, much higher level than you" who strolls up and "kills you with little effort". He's clearly in a much lower level zone, as I don't imagine players would be "idly chatting with a friend" in an area that is "much, much higher level than they are". Or even if they are, they're still clearly "much, much lower level" than he... thus the rest of my post stands.
They pose no threat. They are not "in his way". He's not "giving them a friendly reminder". There is no justifiable reason to gank them other than because he can. He could have just as easily continued on his way and let them be, knowing he could dispatch them easily.
Nice try at defending the indefensible... but you should really make sure you know what you're saying first next time.
Ok, so what you are saying is that the people replying aren't intentionally creating a fictional situation, rather they are simply not aware that in games like UO, EVE, PotBS and SB (to name a few)
a low level player can affect the gameplay just as much as a high level player in terms of resources, goods, territorial control and conquest points
the game world is not tiered in such a way as to compartmentalize zones to create barriers of entry for low level players into the higher level zones
Which goes back to the three questions i asked earlier.
If there is a PvP zone and you have the enemy trapped in that zone, will you allow low level players through to bring them supplies?
If the group trying to conquer a territory is low level players, will you allow them to conquer because you are higher level?
If a low level player is gathering resources that he will be using to sell to your enemy or to build equipment for your enemy, do you leave him be or attack him?
Any one of those could fit the scenario he described. Are you saying that it's a lack of familiarity with any design outside of the popular WOW-style PvP server that is generating these responses?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Even in those games you mentioned as exceptions to the other posters rules, you can and could always easily see how easy or difficult your opponent would be. They all had conning systems. PvPers who seek easy kills over challenges are just as carebear as people who avoid PvP altogether.
Even in those games you mentioned as exceptions to the other posters rules, you can and could always easily see how easy or difficult your opponent would be. They all had conning systems. PvPers who seek easy kills over challenges are just as carebear as people who avoid PvP altogether.
If that's the case then I'm curious what your answers are to my three questions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Even in those games you mentioned as exceptions to the other posters rules, you can and could always easily see how easy or difficult your opponent would be. They all had conning systems. PvPers who seek easy kills over challenges are just as carebear as people who avoid PvP altogether.
If that's the case then I'm curious what your answers are to my three questions.
Except for the fact that I cannot think of one single game that allows low levels to gather resources that would be usefull to higher levels, due to nodes that are skill level blocked. What would be the point of using a low level to even transport such goods even though they can't mine them, about as stupid a scenario as I would expect a ganker to use as a justification. I can't think of a single game that allows a group of low levels to conquer a high level area, the NPC's alone would put an end to that, how stupid do you think we are anyway?
Well, I wouldn't say that's a pvp'er. If I go around killing players who just can't defend themselves I'd be more than embarrassed to call myself a pvp'er based on that. I'd actually feel shame. So I'll have to assume that you are a pvp'er in some other regard?
In any case, I have no problems being surprised and killed in these games. Where I have a problem, and this has happened more than once, is where someone kills me while I'm leveling, I take it well - no biggie there, and when I find him/her I do the same thing and then the crying starts. The pm's start. They start referencing the time they killed me and hoped that it caused me discomfort, etc.
So my experiences with gankers are, more often than not, that they can dish it out but can't take it. Not everyone mind you, there are some players who really take it in stride and this is what makes ffa pvp games work.
But it's the players who start crying and threatening to get their friends (go ahead I say) who make me stop to think that in some ways what they really need is some legitimate therapy.
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Comments
Who cares?
So you've never cheated, wooo. Here's a pat on the back for you, lol.
In case you missed it, you're not supposed to cheat. Playing by the rules is the defacto standard behavior for the well-adjusted majority, so therefore it's not something that you should be celebrating as a newsworthy accomplishment. It's kind of like congratulating yourself for taking a dump in the toilet instead of on the kitchen floor. "Hell yeah, look at me, I'm the man, I did what I was supposed to do." /flex.
Guys like you crack me up, you make a big deal out of 'not cheating' while you're going around intentionally being a dickhead to people you know have no chance of competing with you. Very honorable indeed, lol.
Pvpers don't have a bad name. Where did you get that. It needs to be within game's term? But it is. If the game allows it then it's something normal. Is not a glitch or a hack. If you don't like it then roll a pve server or pick some other game that avoids that.
There is something good that comes from all this though. It builds the hate towards the other faction. When I first created my ally character I didn't really gave a crap about the hordes. Yeah the lore told me to hate em but not something that I really felt. When I reached max level I was ganked and griefed so many times that the hate now was natural. Whenever I would see a horde passing buy I'll make em pay. It creates real tension.
You stuck in there, and gave it hell, no matter what because of your love of the game, and eventually got your revenge.
The world needs more players like this. People who don't quit so easily, instead of just giving up at the drop of a hat. People who understand that 'yes, i'm going to die', but tighten their belts and forge ahead.
+1 to you, sir.
Outnumbered 12 to 1 in an open PvP area? Hah!! I like those odds! Bring it on!
I will agree with boys being neutered today. Part of it is due to our PC society that aggression is bad. Uncontrolled aggression is bad but their is nothing wrong with fueling men's competitive nature. Though why pick on the weak whether in game or rl? What is the point if there is no challenge? Personally I prefer to be challenged and earn the win.
Whoa there. It seems like the ones who are riled up are working on the assumption we are talking about actively hunting low-level players or doing anything remotely inconsiderate.
If there is a PvP zone and you have the enemy trapped in that zone, will you allow low level players through to bring them supplies?
If the group trying to conquer a territory is low level players, will you allow them to conquer because you are higher level?
If a low level player is gathering resources that he will be using to sell to your enemy or to build equipment for your enemy, do you leave him be or attack him?
The OP stated coming across a low level by chance and furhter added that he looked forward to seeing that player again when they were higher level. From the responses several of you gave,
Did I missed an edit - Were the parts I just mentioned added in to replace some section about how he is a Level 60 Nelf who delights in ganking and teabagging level 20's in Tarren Mill and Stranglethorn?
Not every MMO is a WOW PvP server. And to those of you still upset you were PK'd in UO... that was 12 years ago. That wound should have long since healed. There's too much over-reaction to statements based on scenarios the OP didn't present in any context other than to say he doesn't do it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You should have played on the good aligned team in EQs prime on the Sullon Zek server. I was on the smallest of the 3 factions, and you were never able to progress as far as the other two teams. They had far better gear, and the good alignment was nearly pounded out of existance. At one point there were less than 50 everyday players on our team while neutral and evil sported hundreds. You didnt win on the good aligned team, that was a fact.
I had the same attitude as you, never give up, goonies never say die, what a crock of shit. Looking back it was the same ego boosting justification as winning. "Im superior because ill take an asswhooping every day for 5 years straight and not quit"
Its too bad "pvp'rs" cant apply their attitudes as well in real life, can you imagine how great America's future would be if our kids had that attitude in a more constructive setting?
The one thing Ive always noticed in PvP games, gankers are terrible when it counts. Shadowbane for example, the "gankers" werent nearly as good as the players who actively spent more time in groups. When it came to bane time, or mine fights, I hated having the "gankers" in my group, they were always subpar comparitively and often times sabotaged the effort.
No thanks to gankers, when its crunch time, theyre a liability.
Ouch. So you started hating people you don't really know, who probably never did anything bad to you based solely on some arbitrary group membership? So you hate an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few membrs of the group who are not representative of the group as a whole? In RL that is refered to as hate crimes. Not really a healthy thing to learn from a game.
No one's upset about being ganked in UO. It happens to everyone. The thing I found amusing, and what motivated me to comment in this thread, is the OP's mistaken assumption that ganker behavior somehow needs an explanation.
It doesn't. It's one of the simplest mentalities around.
The majority of PvPers have the red=dead mindset because it's just easier to play that way. Actually taking the time/risk to find out if someone is really a threat to you or your faction is too challenging, and so they just kill anything that moves.
Also, the OP compouded the comedy by then trying to take credit for not cheating, making a big deal out of something that should be done as a matter of course and merits no congratulations.
Anyhow, keep it coming, this thread is hi-larious.
I wish there was a system that gives the higher level player a Debuff that takes away a percentage of stats for initiating an attack on a lower level.
I don't hate em like I'm going to get my gun and go kill em in real. Wtf lol. I hate that faction in the game and kill em in the game. Outside of it I have no problems whatsoever. Maybe hate is a big word and maybe I didn't explain it better. There is a tension though, little war thingie and it's fine because is just a game. It just gets more immersive like that.
Lots of unsavory groups out there would love for everyone to be more like this. It would be far easier to recruit new members into their cult or militia. :P
The design of the game capitalizes on the psychological issues. Eyes understands the design very well.
I'm curious what the OP would be doing in a lower level zone that is, presumably, safe enough for a hypothetical lowbie to be hunting in, much less going afk as he states. Not that there aren't valid reasons to go to lower level areas... perhaps for a quest, perhaps to meet up with a friend, etc.. I'm just curious under what pretenses does the OP find himself wandering through low-level territories where he finds these players - even afk ones - "in the wrong place at the wrong time".
Secondly, I find attacking low level/newbie players unprovoked to be completely pointless and not at all representative of PvP. Sorry... it just isn't. It's pointless ganking for no gain other than the ganker's sense of "power over a weaker player". It holds no greater meaning or challenge than a level 20+ player killing level 1 mobs.
When I see a lower level player I don't knowk, I just ignore them... maybe I'll say hi or something if they say somethin first. Heck, I'll even offer some advice to help them out with getting into the game. I consider that to be far more a service to PvP MMOs than killing them because "they're in my line of sight", to "remind them it's a PvP MMO".
And oh yeah... the "they're in my line of sight" or "in the wrong place at the wrong time" rationalizations. Weak.
Really? A level 3 character who you happen upon in you travels through those "treacherous" low-level areas requires being attacked for "being in the wrong place at the wrong time?" Seriously? Someone you can likely one-shot is something "requiring your attention"? And you seriously think that's a reasonable justification for doing it?
Here's how I see it... If I happen to be in a lower level area - the odd quest has sent me there (this happened in L2 quite a lot, incidentally), or perhaps I'm going out to help a friend starting a new character or something... I happen to come across some low level characters working on leveling up... You know what I do? Run right by them. Why? Because there's absolutely no reason to attack them. They pose no threat, directly or indirectly. They know I can beat them. I know I can beat them. If I gank them, I'm not "teaching them a lesson" or "giving them a friendly reminder". I'm being a prick, killing them "because I can", plain and simple.
Some might say "Ahh... but they might become an enemy later and you're slowing down their progress!" Well, they might become an ally. They might become neutral. They might not even be playing the game anymore. Point is, they're not an enemy at that moment, they are not a threat, they are not a concern. There is no reason to gank them. Period.
There's also the consideration that it might be your first and/or only time ganking that individual. But what you wouldn't know is if they'd just been ganked by some other players numerous times earlier that day. They logged out from frustration of literally not being able to take more than 5 steps out of a safe zone without being dropped, and decided to come back later in hopes the gankers would be gone. They log back in thinking the coast is clear... and along you come, deciding to dispatch them "because they're in your line of sight", as a "friendly reminder that it's a PvP game". To them, you're just another ganker killing far weaker players because you can. The only lesson they're learning is "this game has a lot of douchebags who enjoy ganking lowbies for fun".
You know who I *do* go after? The idiots who gank lowbies/newbies. Why? Because I find it lame, and it's not at all supportive of a growing or even stable population. Pure PvP MMOs have a difficult time getting a lot of players as it is... People being chain-ganked - whether by the same person or by multiple people - as brand-new players who barely have the controls figured out is part of the reason. PvP MMOs need a healthy population to remain fun and competitive.. chasing players off (something many lowbie gankers take pride in) is not conducive to building or supporting a healthy population.
I also do it because I know that even for someone who enjoys PvP, getting ganked repeatedly when they have no chance to fight back is aggravating. It's not fun. It's not competitive - they have no chance of competing. It's just a headache that gets old pretty fast.
So... sorry... but being a fan of PvP myself, as far as I'm concerned - unless you are doing it to help stop new players from being ganked by some idiot (who will almost always run away or log out at the sign of someone they might lose to) - there is never a reason to gank someone in a lowbie/newbie area... If you're level 5 and they're level 3 and they have a fighting chance? Sure... see what happens. That would be actual PvP. But if they're level 3, and you're 10, 15, 20+? No way. There is no justification for it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
'Hate' is definetly a big word for something that is supposed to be a friendly competition.
In WoW I will often attack the opposite faction when they are flagged but I see it as part of a competition. I so it to see if I can win or if the other player can beat me. If I am actually attaching any stronger emotions to that then I am doing something wrong and should step back and reconsider my motivations. The two sides are just arbitrary divisions created for the sake of competition and any actions should be done in the spirit of that competition.
Hate may be a big word but just have a look at the comments here. The way peoples call the gankers. All kind of offensive names because they killed their characters. That is pretty close to hate for me. These peoples are pissed off.
I don't know though if some games would be what they are if the gankers didn't exist. Someone mentioned Lineage 2 and that game is full of gankers. That however was the game's special flavor. Wandering around fearing that you'll get killed at any time.
And, again, you guys are creating some fictional scenario that he never presented.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree with ceridith.
Its not so much the game mechanics, its the abuse of those mechanics but pvp = no rules whatsoever right? Crucify the victim, its his fault.
I think not.
Direct quote from the OP's first paragraph:
"So you're leveling up on your own, or perhaps just sitting idly somewhere, chatting with a friend, when suddenly it happens. Out of nowhere, someone who is much, much higher level than you strolls up to you and kills you with little effort."
His words. Not mine.
He is, by his own description, someone "much, much higher level than you" who strolls up and "kills you with little effort". He's clearly in a much lower level zone, as I don't imagine players would be "idly chatting with a friend" in an area that is "much, much higher level than they are". Or even if they are, they're still clearly "much, much lower level" than he... thus the rest of my post stands.
They pose no threat. They are not "in his way". He's not "giving them a friendly reminder". There is no justifiable reason to gank them other than because he can. He could have just as easily continued on his way and let them be, knowing he could dispatch them easily.
Nice try at spinning the details, but you should really make sure you know what you're saying first next time.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ok, so what you are saying is that the people replying aren't intentionally creating a fictional situation, rather they are simply not aware that in games like UO, EVE, PotBS and SB (to name a few)
a low level player can affect the gameplay just as much as a high level player in terms of resources, goods, territorial control and conquest points
the game world is not tiered in such a way as to compartmentalize zones to create barriers of entry for low level players into the higher level zones
Which goes back to the three questions i asked earlier.
If there is a PvP zone and you have the enemy trapped in that zone, will you allow low level players through to bring them supplies?
If the group trying to conquer a territory is low level players, will you allow them to conquer because you are higher level?
If a low level player is gathering resources that he will be using to sell to your enemy or to build equipment for your enemy, do you leave him be or attack him?
Any one of those could fit the scenario he described. Are you saying that it's a lack of familiarity with any design outside of the popular WOW-style PvP server that is generating these responses?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Even in those games you mentioned as exceptions to the other posters rules, you can and could always easily see how easy or difficult your opponent would be. They all had conning systems. PvPers who seek easy kills over challenges are just as carebear as people who avoid PvP altogether.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
If that's the case then I'm curious what your answers are to my three questions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ah so what do we have here? A bully vs. victim thread where the bully decided to open his heart and justify his actions?
No wonder why it's so heated. More victims than bullies. I'll just watch this one, good arguments on both sides /popcorn.
Except for the fact that I cannot think of one single game that allows low levels to gather resources that would be usefull to higher levels, due to nodes that are skill level blocked. What would be the point of using a low level to even transport such goods even though they can't mine them, about as stupid a scenario as I would expect a ganker to use as a justification. I can't think of a single game that allows a group of low levels to conquer a high level area, the NPC's alone would put an end to that, how stupid do you think we are anyway?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Well, I wouldn't say that's a pvp'er. If I go around killing players who just can't defend themselves I'd be more than embarrassed to call myself a pvp'er based on that. I'd actually feel shame. So I'll have to assume that you are a pvp'er in some other regard?
In any case, I have no problems being surprised and killed in these games. Where I have a problem, and this has happened more than once, is where someone kills me while I'm leveling, I take it well - no biggie there, and when I find him/her I do the same thing and then the crying starts. The pm's start. They start referencing the time they killed me and hoped that it caused me discomfort, etc.
So my experiences with gankers are, more often than not, that they can dish it out but can't take it. Not everyone mind you, there are some players who really take it in stride and this is what makes ffa pvp games work.
But it's the players who start crying and threatening to get their friends (go ahead I say) who make me stop to think that in some ways what they really need is some legitimate therapy.
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