This game is pretty much a disappointment to me. When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing. The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc. The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters. There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.
After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing. You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit. I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard. With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark. Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.
So it is a dissapointment to you. Who died and made you king anyways?
Oh I remember, you annointed yourself with that title when you tried selling this MMO site on Darkfall. How did that work out for ya anyways? Those 10 or 20k subs sure dont impress me. Oh well, you did your best shilling that game....dont blame yourself.
The story aspect alone will be worth the box purchase of TOR I do believe. The 8 story-lines are supposed to have more content than all previous BW games combined. Couple in the fact that MAYBE BW gets the MMO portion right, and how can you go wrong with your money? If this game sells less than 2M boxes the first couple of months I will really be suprised.
I think what it boils down to is both jealousy and fear. If this themepark game does well, you can kiss sandboxes good -bye by mainstream publishers. If this game had been directed towards sandboxers, they would be BW's biggest fans as evidenced by the SWG vet forums on this site. Until BW announced an action laden game, those folks were all high on getting the PRECioUs back.
I look forward to TOR, and I hope every sandbox fan flaming this game stays away. Dont care to see BS(this is read DF/SWG/whatever sandbox is better than TOR) in general chat.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
... When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.
After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing. You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit. ...
I think this sums up the core of the problem.
1. Lore never sells long term subscriptions alone.
2. Voice acting and cutscenes were never the driving force behind long term MMO play.
With the EA hype behind it, I see massively quiters after 1 month playing sessions.
...Next, if you weren't expecting JTLS, and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie, but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter, what exactly are we expecting here?
To be able to turn my ship around, or stop altogether if it strikes my fancy? I'd dare even ask for the option of an alternative cockpit view, though that might be asking too much?
Thats an acceptable answer, turn your ship around, so that you could, dogfight? Stop the ship so that you could hang out in the battle zone?
I'm not being facetious here, understand I know the reasons for wanting the ability to free roam, but I don't think its absolutely necessary, I think what is necessary is focus. If they want to focus on the action and they can deliver on that focus with the system at hand, and provide some fun in the meantime, I don't know why I would complain. If they can do the same thing later with PvP or free roaming, I'm okay with that too.
I just don't believe people passing judgment on this because its not the exact same space combat as their favorite Star Wars game. They say it doesn't have to be like these games, but yet, they still hold it to the standards of these games. I'm afraid that you just won't be able to win with some people, and it appears those people are vindictive about it.
... When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.
After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing. You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit. ...
I think this sums up the core of the problem.
1. Lore never sells long term subscriptions alone.
2. Voice acting and cutscenes were never the driving force behind long term MMO play.
With the EA hype behind it, I see massively quiters after 1 month playing sessions.
Then its obvious you know very little about what this game offers if all you think it has is lore and voice acting and cutscenes....
This game is pretty much a disappointment to me. When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing. The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc. The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters. There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.
After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing. You can reroll to relive the story over again a new character, or you can quit. I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard. With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark. Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.
But see , you are doing the same thing others are doing .. making assumptions. How do you know that there is no Content after the Story is over ?!? Do you have some magic insight into the Game that the rest of us dont have ?!? People need to chill and stop assuming this and that. We know very little about the actual game and its full blown Content , so why go around throwing fiction ?!?
I`ll guarantee you this game will do well and will bring in loads of Bioware Fans that never even touched an MMO in their life. They will play it and they`ll love it.
Just like the People above , I expect a good Bioware RPG and nothing more.
I totally agree. People with unrealistic expectations or the types that will never be happy with whatever comes out continue to pick apart and make unfounded assumptions based on the small grains of info that has been released. I for one continue to stay optimistic, can't wait for this game to come out, and have faith in Bioware based on the quality of what they continue to offer despite this being their first MMO.
As far as this article goes, I think its ridiculous. Any thing that Bioware adds is a plus. The sum most likely will be greater than its parts.
Well, Mike, I'm also a SWG vet who prefers my SW IP in the sandbox variety. I was hopeful that was the direction Bioware/EA were going to take the game but it was very clear very early on (crafting comments by Vogel and Walton which I pointed out various times and, well, looks like I was right) that this was not to be.
So you ask what are my expectations? Well, I have none. I'm not interested in playing what they have put together. That's not the SW universe I envision being a part of. Fortunately I have another new game to choose that will be out before TOR as well.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I'm going to start by saying I think this was one of Mikes better written articles, especially over the past few articles he's released.
Now, I've got to ask, why do people think that this type of gameplay cannot be expanded later on. I've got to pose this specifically to Mike, as it appear he has founded his opinion on something -- maybe inside information -- or something that I do not know. As BioWare has already mentioned, they plan on adding PvP, and more multiplayer capabilities, so this leads me to ask the question on how this is possible with a "run of the mill" rail shooter.
Next, if you weren't expecting JTLS, and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie, but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter, what exactly are we expecting here? Pay very close attention to the gameplay you are looking at when you watch that video. What do you actually see? You see astroids being nearly missed, you see lasers flying by, and you see very fast paced gameplay indicative of a cinematic style experience. The gameplay captures specifically the excitement of star wars space combat. This isn't something that was prevalent in JTLS, even in all its glory. Sure you'd have some great missions, incoming fighters here and there, but there would also be times where you would be flying for many minutes without anything happening at all.
To that, I feel BioWare is directing this gameplay to accentuate the good areas like the action oriented combat while taking out the lengthy, time consuming, boring parts.
I'll bite. I think I've explained this in the previous articles, but wisdom would suggest developers wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater in order to implement something else entirely later on. Now you might say, well they'll add more features to this, etc etc. Yes, they have already said they will expand on the feature by allowing for group play and perhaps even PvP missions post-launch, but the problem is with the base design of being a rail shooter. You can layer all you want on it but in the end its still a rail shooter. It's like riding in the passenger seat of a car, you may see all the sights, hear all the sounds, and feel the wind blowing through your hair with the window open, but you're not in control of the ride.
What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.
Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.
Adventures across the stars and on the ground are equally important to me, and while many gamers may or may not care about the presence of space gameplay in SWTOR, no one should be dismissing those who do, and this was part of what i was trying to get at in this week's column. All gamers who are fans of SW:TOR and are looking forward to this game have certain expectations for it and while our expectations may vary greatly, we shouldn't be insensitive and dismiss or attack each other. This topic has understandably been quite divisve but it highlights a larger underlying issue, which is that the discourse has really devolved into noise, a situation that doesn't help anyone's cause.
...Next, if you weren't expecting JTLS, and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie, but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter, what exactly are we expecting here?
To be able to turn my ship around, or stop altogether if it strikes my fancy? I'd dare even ask for the option of an alternative cockpit view, though that might be asking too much?
Thats an acceptable answer, turn your ship around, so that you could, dogfight? Stop the ship so that you could hang out in the battle zone?
Pretty much. Unless you're under the impression that dogfighting should be exclusively white-knuckled barreling in a fixed trajectory tunnel at full throttle from a third-person perspective.
I've said as much in another thread but perhaps it bears repeating here:
The trailer looks absolutely gorgeous and by all appearances the gameplay seems quite accessible and fun (both are very, very good things worthy of high praise). It just strikes me as a bit shallow—not quite as shallow as the original KotOR's turret play minigame, but I suspect the novelty of a constrained railshooter will start wearing thin fairly quickly for those of us hoping for a smidgen more depth.
As far as free roaming goes, personally I'm not asking to venture off into the vast void of empty space and leave all the cinematic-focused goodness behind me… I'd just like the ability to turn around (if for no other reason, to get a second look at some eye-candy I might have missed), and maybe watch the splendor from my cockpit view (strategically tweaking my power/shield settings and/or flying/fighting with a buddy on top of that would just be icing on the cake).
Absolutely necessary? Not by even the greatest stretch of imagination. But would it rekindle fond childhood memories and get this 40-something manchild even more giddy about a video game than age and maturity should allow? You bet your ass.
I'm going to start by saying I think this was one of Mikes better written articles, especially over the past few articles he's released.
Now, I've got to ask, why do people think that this type of gameplay cannot be expanded later on. I've got to pose this specifically to Mike, as it appear he has founded his opinion on something -- maybe inside information -- or something that I do not know. As BioWare has already mentioned, they plan on adding PvP, and more multiplayer capabilities, so this leads me to ask the question on how this is possible with a "run of the mill" rail shooter.
Next, if you weren't expecting JTLS, and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie, but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter, what exactly are we expecting here? Pay very close attention to the gameplay you are looking at when you watch that video. What do you actually see? You see astroids being nearly missed, you see lasers flying by, and you see very fast paced gameplay indicative of a cinematic style experience. The gameplay captures specifically the excitement of star wars space combat. This isn't something that was prevalent in JTLS, even in all its glory. Sure you'd have some great missions, incoming fighters here and there, but there would also be times where you would be flying for many minutes without anything happening at all.
To that, I feel BioWare is directing this gameplay to accentuate the good areas like the action oriented combat while taking out the lengthy, time consuming, boring parts.
I'll bite. I think I've explained this in the previous articles, but wisdom would suggest developers wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater in order to implement something else entirely later on. Now you might say, well they'll add more features to this, etc etc. Yes, they have already said they will expand on the feature by allowing for group play and perhaps even PvP missions post-launch, but the problem is with the base design of being a rail shooter. You can layer all you want on it but in the end its still a rail shooter. It's like riding in the passenger seat of a car, you may see all the sights, hear all the sounds, and feel the wind blowing through your hair with the window open, but you're not in control of the ride.
What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.
Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.
Adventures across the stars and on the ground are equally important to me, and while many gamers may or may not care about the presence of space gameplay in SWTOR, no one should be dismissing those who do, and this was part of what i was trying to get at in this week's column. All gamers who are fans of SW:TOR and are looking forward to this game have certain expectations for it and while our expectations may vary greatly, we shouldn't be insensitive and dismiss or attack each other. This topic has understandably been quite divisve but it highlights a larger underlying issue, which is that the discourse has really devolved into noise, a situation that doesn't help anyone's cause.
Now, apply this toward all other facets of the game (crafting, housing, etc.).
I'd have no problem at all buying TOR if it didn't have a monthly fee and require an internet connection. For me personally if you are going to have a monthly fee, require internet connection, call yourself an MMO AND carry the SW IP, you got to bring more than this.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
...What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.
Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.
Something akin to the Battle of Endor sequence from Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader would have exceeded my expectations. (And for those not in the know… that was a Nintendo Gamecube title for goodness sakes—not exactly a free-roaming, space-sim powerhouse.)
You should of titled the article "Lowered Expectations"
bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!
I remember one of the first interviews about swtor the dude answering the questions stated they wanted to blend the world of linear and sandbox together in creating SWTOR. where the fuck is the sandbox part?! sure as fuck aint in space, sure as fuck aint on systems. all ive seen is talk to guy, have long epic conversations, go kill mob, rinse repeat.
A interview today with Drew Karpyshyn said you dont need to do the storylines at all...if you choose to you can skip all of it. He said you can roam around on planets and level your character just by going out and gaining experience. Gives me the impression I'm not stuck running from point A to point B over and over following a storyline. There will be exploration and a bit more freedom than everyone thinks.
Space combat seems to be a side issue taking on to much importance, and with out actually playing the game and rating the fun aspect of it, critiquing it seems like dissecting a frog with out the frog.
I couldn't say it better...
If there is someone who wants nice spacefights with "open space", go and play EVE.
SW:ToR will be an MMORPG where your character is the main part and the ship + spacecombat is just side action - which sounds realistic because it would be a bit weird to destroy a ship in space and "loot" a lightsaber for example or to destroy a consortship and get an agility point for your character... just weird.
Now it seems that spacecombat will be a nice "mini-game" and that you receice upgrade for you ship - sounds cool and logical!
just my 2 cents...
When the war of the beasts brings about the worlds end, the goddess descends from the sky, wings of light and dark spread afar.
Again with the engine and mini game already created how hard would it be to shift that into all out space warfare probably not to darn much. I think it's an awesome diverson from in game and I cant wait to play it. Also it looks amazing! I still think a future expansion with spacewarfare down the road wouldnt be to far fetched look what Blizzard is doing.
My concern is that Bioware is really good at writing single player rpg games with great storylines, but they have never done a MMO. What I have not seen to this point is an end game. Even Blizzard had an end game. While raiding might not have been everyone's cup of tea, there was still something to do in Wow once you ran through the levels.
The arcade type space design did not sit well with me either. I am honestly not very good at arcade games hence, my questioning the inclusion of such in this game when they could have waited and introduced something later that was a bit more sophisticated.
Yeah personally I would have preferred a game that was based on skills, not levels and restricted character classes, but that is not a game breaker for me. A good theme park game can be fun and I expect this game will be fun, at least initially as Bioware is always good at storyline.
I am still waiting to see what kind of end game Bioware comes up with. That is what will make or break this game. You have to have a reason for people to keep playing. Most of these big MMO's as of late have started out with huge initial box sales which tapered off drastically when the content for end game was weak or non existent. I just hope that Bioware does not fall into this category with this game.
Far as I am concerned Lotro was the last successful MMO released. Every game since has struggled and even Lotro is going to a different payment model to attract more players. I am looking for reasons why all the excitement for this Bioware game and as of yet I do not see many. So far it looks like most of the other recent releases, lots of fun content initially, which many will rush through, and then not much to do after. How can you really get excited about that prospect?
Hopefully Bioware will prove me wrong and have content that will keep everyone interested.
Well as a X-Wing, Tie-Fighter and SWG veteran I am disappointed too. But after the disappointing StarTrek Online my expectations for all new mmos are very low.
Besides the space combat I have the feeling that SWG somehow spoiled me for all other mmos. Especialy the lack of crafting complexity and housing in most of them. I have the feeling the MMOs are all aiming very low. In Ultima and a few of the following mmos I realy had the feeling that they devs aim for a "living and breathing world" - for more then an ordinary solo RPG. But most of the new games just aim for beeing not much more then a (very bad) Diablo clone where you meet in a city instead of a chatroom. And even a lot of the gamejournalists don't expect much. I remember an interview with the SWTOR devs where someone ask if there are Badges like the ones in the Tie-Figther games or if this is asking for too much. In my opinion an mmo should always deliver much more then a solo game - I mean you pay the equivalent of a game all 3 months.
Sometimes I realy have the feeling that the MMO marked is degrading, no wonder that no one beats WoW. Most times I read about mmos and expansions and then remember the resource gathering and crafting in SWG or how you could spend 20+h decorating a single house or the space combat and wonder if there will ever be such a game again. When friends tell me how the enjoy the dances in WoW or playing with the auction house I always start to tell stories about how much better dancing and business where SWG
this dude nailed it. so f.true swg were way ahead of time, robust everything. hell you could organize a concert, with own music (dancers and musicians could compose notes) and advertize it by walking droids, wandering around the town. Sure you had to have some batteries crafter, droids needed power and you could make it happen in a player owned cantina and collect money from tickets lol. Since swg there was never ever a half of a depth and freedom swg had.
I wanted to add that I'm pretty happy with what I've seen about TOR, regardless of my disappointment regarding space combat, or the space experience in general. Part of that has to do with the developers, Bioware, and how highly I regard them. Another large portion of the disappointment stems from their hefty budget, and leads me to consider that if these guys can't do it, with the amount of money they have, it will probably remain out of reach until the genre is democratized. Really, it's not even about wanting two full games from the day of launch, or being an SWG vet, for me particularly; they don't even apply. It's about expecting more from the people who are developing these games, because without us there saying, "You can do better," they're going to produce exactly what's necessary to get by (like the footage of a space minigame, or considerably familiar MMO combat).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
All this griping over speculation is ridiculous. It's like judging the beauty of a phone sex operator. Or griping about the taste of a photograph of a steak. Can we all just get off the internet until the game comes out?
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
I expect it to successfully combine a BioWare RPG with a modern MMO. That is what they set out to do and that is what I expect.
I don't expect much else.
This is my expectation as well. If you take something like WoW, make it Star Wars, and add Bioware's wonderful RPG elements, you already have a winning MMO in my opinion. The people who cry and rock back and forth and complain every time they hear a new detail because it isn't EXACTLY what THEY wanted sound to me more and more like just a bunch of whiners.
Also, I wasn't expecting space combat from an MMO that is already this ambitious, so it is an added bonus. No matter how big the game is or how awesome it turns out, it will never be enough for some people.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
U must not know MUCH!! EVE is the worse Space MMO EVER PD.!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who uses EvE as a IF u want space go to EVE. If u play MMO's which I have Played over 18 and Have 3+ Subs going at all times I would like everyone to Not talk about something u Don't know nothing about. If u played EvE then cool talk about it. BUT BUT!!!!!!!! I HAVE NEVER HEARD ONE PERSON OUT OF THE 75% SW:ToR Community forums that don't like the Space want a auto pilot seeing as everyone wants to fly there ship. In EVE u can't fly your own ship DUH. So why would anyone want to go play EVE HUH! We don't want to be Pushed forward we want to move ourself. U ONLY CAN MOVE LEFT,RIGHT,SHOOT LASER,AND SHOOT MISSILES. WOW THAT IS EPIC. Don't get me wrong I love all BW stuff since before they was Named Bioware Back when I had to play on a Tandy. So pls if u don't know what your talking about don't add it to your post. Its like ppl who watch the Vid and like SWEET that is great. I hope when we fly around the Capital ships they do this. READ THE MAG or go buy the mag 1ST if u didn't. ( but u must have if u are that much of a fan) Now u Read the Mag, Now go and Read all the Hands on. Yes BW have let a few ppl Try Space and they Posted everything about the Engine and what u can and can't do. Then come back and Edit or repost with some Knowledge. Now I still play KotOR been on the KotOR Forums since 1996 waiting for KotOR 3 to hit and when they came out with we are making a ToR MMO I was LIKE WOOT!! A never Ending KotOR can't bet it and I beleave i was right. This game is going to be Epic and Space Vid shows how Epic the Fill is. The Space really Fills like a Epic Space Battle and when they Change it to a SW:BF2 type space combat it will be Epic. At least take it off the rail and quit pushing u forward. This is going to be my Last and Only Sub after it comes out. I will save a ton of money hehe. Sadly I got to Buy DCU and play it till ToR comes out. hehe
I can only fully agree to this great and thoughtful article, Mr Bitten has written here. Well said!
The articles of the last few weeks have all been of great quality and show me that MMORPG.com is one again a site for good thoughts to follow and articles to read. I felt about it all the same way, being an SWG vet who also has made some sort of peace with the past, but still is unfluenced by it.
Well said, OP.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
There was a lot of flashy noise, but I didn't really get any impression of what the gameplay was.
The constant releases of videos, etc throughout the development has long been setting off my "too much hype" warning alarms. On the other hand, I know it exists, which is more than I can say about 90% of the games being released right now.
I had the same expectations you did. It's very unfortunate that Bioware took the cheap and easy route and relegated space combat to vastly inferior gameplay to even Halo: Reach. It's enough to give me second thoughts on purchasing the title. What other element of the game have they dumbed down in the name of time/money/"accessibility"?
Comments
So it is a dissapointment to you. Who died and made you king anyways?
Oh I remember, you annointed yourself with that title when you tried selling this MMO site on Darkfall. How did that work out for ya anyways? Those 10 or 20k subs sure dont impress me. Oh well, you did your best shilling that game....dont blame yourself.
The story aspect alone will be worth the box purchase of TOR I do believe. The 8 story-lines are supposed to have more content than all previous BW games combined. Couple in the fact that MAYBE BW gets the MMO portion right, and how can you go wrong with your money? If this game sells less than 2M boxes the first couple of months I will really be suprised.
I think what it boils down to is both jealousy and fear. If this themepark game does well, you can kiss sandboxes good -bye by mainstream publishers. If this game had been directed towards sandboxers, they would be BW's biggest fans as evidenced by the SWG vet forums on this site. Until BW announced an action laden game, those folks were all high on getting the PRECioUs back.
I look forward to TOR, and I hope every sandbox fan flaming this game stays away. Dont care to see BS(this is read DF/SWG/whatever sandbox is better than TOR) in general chat.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I think this sums up the core of the problem.
1. Lore never sells long term subscriptions alone.
2. Voice acting and cutscenes were never the driving force behind long term MMO play.
With the EA hype behind it, I see massively quiters after 1 month playing sessions.
Thats an acceptable answer, turn your ship around, so that you could, dogfight? Stop the ship so that you could hang out in the battle zone?
I'm not being facetious here, understand I know the reasons for wanting the ability to free roam, but I don't think its absolutely necessary, I think what is necessary is focus. If they want to focus on the action and they can deliver on that focus with the system at hand, and provide some fun in the meantime, I don't know why I would complain. If they can do the same thing later with PvP or free roaming, I'm okay with that too.
I just don't believe people passing judgment on this because its not the exact same space combat as their favorite Star Wars game. They say it doesn't have to be like these games, but yet, they still hold it to the standards of these games. I'm afraid that you just won't be able to win with some people, and it appears those people are vindictive about it.
Then its obvious you know very little about what this game offers if all you think it has is lore and voice acting and cutscenes....
I totally agree. People with unrealistic expectations or the types that will never be happy with whatever comes out continue to pick apart and make unfounded assumptions based on the small grains of info that has been released. I for one continue to stay optimistic, can't wait for this game to come out, and have faith in Bioware based on the quality of what they continue to offer despite this being their first MMO.
As far as this article goes, I think its ridiculous. Any thing that Bioware adds is a plus. The sum most likely will be greater than its parts.
There Is Always Hope!
Well, Mike, I'm also a SWG vet who prefers my SW IP in the sandbox variety. I was hopeful that was the direction Bioware/EA were going to take the game but it was very clear very early on (crafting comments by Vogel and Walton which I pointed out various times and, well, looks like I was right) that this was not to be.
So you ask what are my expectations? Well, I have none. I'm not interested in playing what they have put together. That's not the SW universe I envision being a part of. Fortunately I have another new game to choose that will be out before TOR as well.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I'll bite. I think I've explained this in the previous articles, but wisdom would suggest developers wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater in order to implement something else entirely later on. Now you might say, well they'll add more features to this, etc etc. Yes, they have already said they will expand on the feature by allowing for group play and perhaps even PvP missions post-launch, but the problem is with the base design of being a rail shooter. You can layer all you want on it but in the end its still a rail shooter. It's like riding in the passenger seat of a car, you may see all the sights, hear all the sounds, and feel the wind blowing through your hair with the window open, but you're not in control of the ride.
What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.
Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.
Adventures across the stars and on the ground are equally important to me, and while many gamers may or may not care about the presence of space gameplay in SWTOR, no one should be dismissing those who do, and this was part of what i was trying to get at in this week's column. All gamers who are fans of SW:TOR and are looking forward to this game have certain expectations for it and while our expectations may vary greatly, we shouldn't be insensitive and dismiss or attack each other. This topic has understandably been quite divisve but it highlights a larger underlying issue, which is that the discourse has really devolved into noise, a situation that doesn't help anyone's cause.
Pretty much. Unless you're under the impression that dogfighting should be exclusively white-knuckled barreling in a fixed trajectory tunnel at full throttle from a third-person perspective.
I've said as much in another thread but perhaps it bears repeating here:
The trailer looks absolutely gorgeous and by all appearances the gameplay seems quite accessible and fun (both are very, very good things worthy of high praise). It just strikes me as a bit shallow—not quite as shallow as the original KotOR's turret play minigame, but I suspect the novelty of a constrained railshooter will start wearing thin fairly quickly for those of us hoping for a smidgen more depth.
As far as free roaming goes, personally I'm not asking to venture off into the vast void of empty space and leave all the cinematic-focused goodness behind me… I'd just like the ability to turn around (if for no other reason, to get a second look at some eye-candy I might have missed), and maybe watch the splendor from my cockpit view (strategically tweaking my power/shield settings and/or flying/fighting with a buddy on top of that would just be icing on the cake).
Absolutely necessary? Not by even the greatest stretch of imagination. But would it rekindle fond childhood memories and get this 40-something manchild even more giddy about a video game than age and maturity should allow? You bet your ass.
Now, apply this toward all other facets of the game (crafting, housing, etc.).
I'd have no problem at all buying TOR if it didn't have a monthly fee and require an internet connection. For me personally if you are going to have a monthly fee, require internet connection, call yourself an MMO AND carry the SW IP, you got to bring more than this.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Something akin to the Battle of Endor sequence from Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader would have exceeded my expectations. (And for those not in the know… that was a Nintendo Gamecube title for goodness sakes—not exactly a free-roaming, space-sim powerhouse.)
A interview today with Drew Karpyshyn said you dont need to do the storylines at all...if you choose to you can skip all of it. He said you can roam around on planets and level your character just by going out and gaining experience. Gives me the impression I'm not stuck running from point A to point B over and over following a storyline. There will be exploration and a bit more freedom than everyone thinks.
I couldn't say it better...
If there is someone who wants nice spacefights with "open space", go and play EVE.
SW:ToR will be an MMORPG where your character is the main part and the ship + spacecombat is just side action - which sounds realistic because it would be a bit weird to destroy a ship in space and "loot" a lightsaber for example or to destroy a consortship and get an agility point for your character... just weird.
Now it seems that spacecombat will be a nice "mini-game" and that you receice upgrade for you ship - sounds cool and logical!
just my 2 cents...
When the war of the beasts brings about the worlds end,
the goddess descends from the sky, wings of light and dark spread afar.
Again with the engine and mini game already created how hard would it be to shift that into all out space warfare probably not to darn much. I think it's an awesome diverson from in game and I cant wait to play it. Also it looks amazing! I still think a future expansion with spacewarfare down the road wouldnt be to far fetched look what Blizzard is doing.
Fixed it for you.
My concern is that Bioware is really good at writing single player rpg games with great storylines, but they have never done a MMO. What I have not seen to this point is an end game. Even Blizzard had an end game. While raiding might not have been everyone's cup of tea, there was still something to do in Wow once you ran through the levels.
The arcade type space design did not sit well with me either. I am honestly not very good at arcade games hence, my questioning the inclusion of such in this game when they could have waited and introduced something later that was a bit more sophisticated.
Yeah personally I would have preferred a game that was based on skills, not levels and restricted character classes, but that is not a game breaker for me. A good theme park game can be fun and I expect this game will be fun, at least initially as Bioware is always good at storyline.
I am still waiting to see what kind of end game Bioware comes up with. That is what will make or break this game. You have to have a reason for people to keep playing. Most of these big MMO's as of late have started out with huge initial box sales which tapered off drastically when the content for end game was weak or non existent. I just hope that Bioware does not fall into this category with this game.
Far as I am concerned Lotro was the last successful MMO released. Every game since has struggled and even Lotro is going to a different payment model to attract more players. I am looking for reasons why all the excitement for this Bioware game and as of yet I do not see many. So far it looks like most of the other recent releases, lots of fun content initially, which many will rush through, and then not much to do after. How can you really get excited about that prospect?
Hopefully Bioware will prove me wrong and have content that will keep everyone interested.
I wanted to add that I'm pretty happy with what I've seen about TOR, regardless of my disappointment regarding space combat, or the space experience in general. Part of that has to do with the developers, Bioware, and how highly I regard them. Another large portion of the disappointment stems from their hefty budget, and leads me to consider that if these guys can't do it, with the amount of money they have, it will probably remain out of reach until the genre is democratized. Really, it's not even about wanting two full games from the day of launch, or being an SWG vet, for me particularly; they don't even apply. It's about expecting more from the people who are developing these games, because without us there saying, "You can do better," they're going to produce exactly what's necessary to get by (like the footage of a space minigame, or considerably familiar MMO combat).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
All this griping over speculation is ridiculous. It's like judging the beauty of a phone sex operator. Or griping about the taste of a photograph of a steak. Can we all just get off the internet until the game comes out?
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
This is my expectation as well. If you take something like WoW, make it Star Wars, and add Bioware's wonderful RPG elements, you already have a winning MMO in my opinion. The people who cry and rock back and forth and complain every time they hear a new detail because it isn't EXACTLY what THEY wanted sound to me more and more like just a bunch of whiners.
Also, I wasn't expecting space combat from an MMO that is already this ambitious, so it is an added bonus. No matter how big the game is or how awesome it turns out, it will never be enough for some people.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
U must not know MUCH!! EVE is the worse Space MMO EVER PD.!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who uses EvE as a IF u want space go to EVE. If u play MMO's which I have Played over 18 and Have 3+ Subs going at all times I would like everyone to Not talk about something u Don't know nothing about. If u played EvE then cool talk about it. BUT BUT!!!!!!!! I HAVE NEVER HEARD ONE PERSON OUT OF THE 75% SW:ToR Community forums that don't like the Space want a auto pilot seeing as everyone wants to fly there ship. In EVE u can't fly your own ship DUH. So why would anyone want to go play EVE HUH! We don't want to be Pushed forward we want to move ourself. U ONLY CAN MOVE LEFT,RIGHT,SHOOT LASER,AND SHOOT MISSILES. WOW THAT IS EPIC. Don't get me wrong I love all BW stuff since before they was Named Bioware Back when I had to play on a Tandy. So pls if u don't know what your talking about don't add it to your post. Its like ppl who watch the Vid and like SWEET that is great. I hope when we fly around the Capital ships they do this. READ THE MAG or go buy the mag 1ST if u didn't. ( but u must have if u are that much of a fan) Now u Read the Mag, Now go and Read all the Hands on. Yes BW have let a few ppl Try Space and they Posted everything about the Engine and what u can and can't do. Then come back and Edit or repost with some Knowledge. Now I still play KotOR been on the KotOR Forums since 1996 waiting for KotOR 3 to hit and when they came out with we are making a ToR MMO I was LIKE WOOT!! A never Ending KotOR can't bet it and I beleave i was right. This game is going to be Epic and Space Vid shows how Epic the Fill is. The Space really Fills like a Epic Space Battle and when they Change it to a SW:BF2 type space combat it will be Epic. At least take it off the rail and quit pushing u forward. This is going to be my Last and Only Sub after it comes out. I will save a ton of money hehe. Sadly I got to Buy DCU and play it till ToR comes out. hehe
I can only fully agree to this great and thoughtful article, Mr Bitten has written here. Well said!
The articles of the last few weeks have all been of great quality and show me that MMORPG.com is one again a site for good thoughts to follow and articles to read. I felt about it all the same way, being an SWG vet who also has made some sort of peace with the past, but still is unfluenced by it.
Well said, OP.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
2006 not 1996 hehe thats when I Grad. hehe
There was a lot of flashy noise, but I didn't really get any impression of what the gameplay was.
The constant releases of videos, etc throughout the development has long been setting off my "too much hype" warning alarms. On the other hand, I know it exists, which is more than I can say about 90% of the games being released right now.
I had the same expectations you did. It's very unfortunate that Bioware took the cheap and easy route and relegated space combat to vastly inferior gameplay to even Halo: Reach. It's enough to give me second thoughts on purchasing the title. What other element of the game have they dumbed down in the name of time/money/"accessibility"?