That makes sense. I think there are a lot of players, past and present, that are ready for a new mmo. That isn't limited to just wow either. Seeing how many copies of Conan and Warhammer have been sold I think that suggests the time is right for yet another game to achieve massive success.
I consider 1 million+ paying subscribers to be a massive success.
WoW is horrible; it allows hackers in so they can fool players into buying more software to ensure that their accounts are safe; Turbine long ago prevented hackers and gold farmers/spammers in their games. Blizzard admits that their servers and game are not secure unless you give them 40 more dollars for higher security measures for yourself. They also lie about their subscriber numbers; the numbers reported are those who have ever tried the game, subscribed for a month, or bought the game or even used a key; the numbers are inflated and skewed to make people think that this number is a regular subscriber base which it clearly is not; most people left due to these gold farmers and hackers from asia that have a deal with Blizzard to give them a cut of all money made so Blizzard can sell their extra secuity software to prevent their business partners, the hackers, from stealing your in-game characters, loot, and money, and your real-world identities, money, and life. Stick with the ONLY company that cares about their customers and has proven it time and time again, and that would be Turbine. They even made LOTRO a WoW-ish clone but did it MUCH better and is the first game to ever get crafting completely right; LOTRO goes F2P Sept. 10, and DDO is already free, so why would anybody in their right mind pay to play garbage like WoW and also constantly get their accounts hacked?
If you compare EQ raids to WoW raids and say that EQ has better game mechanics, than I don't know what to tell you. You obviously never did a whole lot of high end WoW raids I would think.
Also you're crazy if you think only kids play WoW. Check this out. A older study, but probably still true, if not more so.
From the survey data, the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4). On average, they spend 22.7 (SD = 14.1) hours per week playing WoW. There are no gender differences in hours played per week.
Everyone who played in a good organised and social guild can see these results are logical..
MMO's are not really popular with young teenagers (console players) and the 84% male, 16% female feels about right.
Important to note is that older players tend to stay much longer in a game and will not switch that easely (older people are much more conservative in choices).
22.7 hours/week played shows the average player is still a moderate hardcore player. That doesn't mean they all play the same way though. An error most posters make.
If you compare EQ raids to WoW raids and say that EQ has better game mechanics, than I don't know what to tell you. You obviously never did a whole lot of high end WoW raids I would think.
Also you're crazy if you think only kids play WoW. Check this out. A older study, but probably still true, if not more so.
From the survey data, the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4). On average, they spend 22.7 (SD = 14.1) hours per week playing WoW. There are no gender differences in hours played per week.
Everyone who played in a good organised and social guild can see these results are logical..
MMO's are not really popular with young teenagers (console players) and the 84% male, 16% female feels about right.
Important to note is that older players tend to stay much longer in a game and will not switch that easely (older people are much more conservative in choices).
22.7 hours/week played shows the average player is still a moderate hardcore player. That doesn't mean they all play the same way though. An error most posters make.
Eh... the survey says it's from 2005?
Not that actual anymore or representative for current day and age.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
WoW is horrible; it allows hackers in so they can fool players into buying more software to ensure that their accounts are safe; Turbine long ago prevented hackers and gold farmers/spammers in their games. Blizzard admits that their servers and game are not secure unless you give them 40 more dollars for higher security measures for yourself. They also lie about their subscriber numbers; the numbers reported are those who have ever tried the game, subscribed for a month, or bought the game or even used a key; the numbers are inflated and skewed to make people think that this number is a regular subscriber base which it clearly is not; most people left due to these gold farmers and hackers from asia that have a deal with Blizzard to give them a cut of all money made so Blizzard can sell their extra secuity software to prevent their business partners, the hackers, from stealing your in-game characters, loot, and money, and your real-world identities, money, and life. Stick with the ONLY company that cares about their customers and has proven it time and time again, and that would be Turbine. They even made LOTRO a WoW-ish clone but did it MUCH better and is the first game to ever get crafting completely right; LOTRO goes F2P Sept. 10, and DDO is already free, so why would anybody in their right mind pay to play garbage like WoW and also constantly get their accounts hacked?
The fail is strong in this one.
Turbine dropped the ball with their 'offer wall' and exposed all their customers private information to hackers and spammers.
Turbine dropped the ball with their 'offer wall' and exposed all their customers private information to hackers and spammers.
Turbine accounts are just as vulnerable as any other game.
Otherwise you tell an very entertaining story.
Well, if nothing else the idea about LOTRO crafting being the best is kinda sad, Vanguard have a lot better crafting and so do EQ2.
And Blizzards security is ok besides the mail thing, letting people see your mail is bad but not a disaster.
MMO security is not that bad generally, people are just bad on security. Logging in to webpages as phising mails told them to, answering "blizzard" with their password, using add ons and not keeping an updated viruskiller is begging for problem.
Blizzard is neither better or worse than anyone else, the difference is that there is a lot more money into Wow than anything else.
The real problem is idiots buying gold, that often comes from stolen accounts. If you buy gold it is your own fault if someone hacks your account in any game.
This is a funny topic. It forces people who hate WoW to have to acknowledge something positive. One of the most important factors that is overlooked is how well the game runs on all the sh!tty computers out there, and these are the majority of hte computers out there.
FFXi runs on consoles,FFXI imo has always been ahead of Blizzard and Wow.Content wise FFXI wins out,design FFXI wins out,class diversity along with the sub class system again wins out.Now Square will beat Blizzard to the gun again by releasing their next gen game FFXIV.Blizzard is still years away,sad such a giant is so far behind the competition,but i guess as long as people feed them money there is no pressure to perform.
Just remember this at one time Vivendi couldn't give blizzard away even at a much lower than rated worth.Joining forces with another giant in marketing and using/paying NPD group to further falsify the hype,they are going to continue to succeed more than they deserve.At one time Blizzard could not eve nmake SC:Ghost for console,the yhad to hire outside their giant company to make it for them.Even after 2 fails Blizzard still could not do SC2,so sat it on the shelf for years.End result...SC2 released as a low tech game once again,right on par with the way Blizzard operates.I think it is a no brainer that Blizzard did NOT use low tech to garner more players,otherwise they would have made Wow work on console as well,but instead opted to eliminate that fanbase from the equation.Once again Square beats out Blizzard by making FFXi run on both PC and console.
If anyone cannot see the fluke that made Wow ,then just imagine there were only 2 games to release into the MMO fray with 15+ million new mmo gamers and back it up to 2005.There is a pretty good chance that one of those games would have 10 million gamers.Now a days this will never happen again,ther is too many choices and most gamers are settled into one game or another.I would guesstimate that the MMO community gains MAYBE 1-2 million new gamers each year with maybe another 3 million game hoppers,so there is no chance any released game is going above 3mil.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Save your hatred for other threads; the simple fact is WoW remains king of MMOs for some very simple reasons, amongst which: it works most games work,
it has variety not much at all compared to earlier MMOs, WoW is VERY limited in scope,
it has a large world full of nooks and crannies to explore not large compared to most other games,
it feels like a real world not even remotely, too much instancing and hand holding and the NPCs with !!! over their heads is NOT immersive
and has zones that mostly don't require loading cross boundaries this has been an industry standard since 1999
it has both pve and pvp most games do, but WoW's PvP is god awful
,its quests are quite fun and creative maybe the first 3 times, but having the !! over every NPC and waypoints marked on a minimap really doesn't make it fun at all, and since you have to do a million of these pointless "go here, kill boat 10 times" quests, they lose their fun almost instantly
there are a gazillion cute touches all over the place, there is genuine character and humor throughout the world etc etc this is true
My question is, why has no other game been able to replicate anything like this?
Vanguard, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Darkfall, Eve Online, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies. Need more?
Save your hatred for other threads; the simple fact is WoW remains king of MMOs for some very simple reasons, amongst which: it works most games work,
it has variety not much at all compared to earlier MMOs, WoW is VERY limited in scope,
it has a large world full of nooks and crannies to explore not large compared to most other games,
it feels like a real world not even remotely, too much instancing and hand holding and the NPCs with !!! over their heads is NOT immersive
and has zones that mostly don't require loading cross boundaries this has been an industry standard since 1999
it has both pve and pvp most games do, but WoW's PvP is god awful
,its quests are quite fun and creative maybe the first 3 times, but having the !! over every NPC and waypoints marked on a minimap really doesn't make it fun at all, and since you have to do a million of these pointless "go here, kill boat 10 times" quests, they lose their fun almost instantly
there are a gazillion cute touches all over the place, there is genuine character and humor throughout the world etc etc this is true
My question is, why has no other game been able to replicate anything like this?
Vanguard, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Darkfall, Eve Online, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies. Need more?
Which of those green MMo's have an e-sport status with real price money?
Which of those games have 6 kinds of different PvP options. (I include the upcoming rated BG and guild competition already apart from the various arena formats, open world pvp quests, city raids, leveling through PvP and Wintergrasp).
I limited the above questions to PvP only just to show how silly that WOW hate is of yours.
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too.
[1] First know this, whatever comments you've tied to make, do not rebuttal anything I said, they bolster what I have said. And for things I didn't say... why do your argue them.. to whome?
[2] Who..? Who said that World of Warcraft wasn't a success upon release? Why do you quote me, provide a made up question, then asnwer it..?
[3] Secondly, I am telling you that nearly 95% of WoW's player base, are/were new players. They were not in the MMO space until WOW. (meaning, you won't see them on the charts until you see WoW's delta). World of Warcraft generated incredible amount of revenues off of brand new players (ie: newbies)
It is a well known fact bro... and is exactly what I have been telling you.
Yes, some of WoW players are converts from other games, but that wasn't because World of Warcraft was exceptional, some people wanted change.
[4] Nobody said that EQ and DAOC player didn't try WoW... (*dee dee dee*) Almost everyone who played Everquest bought World of Warcraft.. don't you even understand that. It's just that months later they all went back to their respective games, because WoW didn't provide anythying new, or challenging.
[5] Many just took the oppertunity to find a new game, I know I took a 1 year hiatus from EQ when EQ2 came out. Some of my guildee's went to other games, EQ was basically 6 years old by then and SOE's focus was on EQ2.
[6] But now WoW is the same age as EQ was when it was released... tell me, what WOW players hasn't tried AoC, DFO, Aion, LOTR, Warhammer, etc... ? It is just that 500k players leaving WoW even dent it's position on the chart, specially when new kids see mohawk grandes commercials and buy WoW, thus another newbie created.
Understand?
[1] What is this grade school?
[2] Umm you did. I would quote you, but since you have so much trouble posting in a constructive manner it looks like the mods deleted most of your contributions to this thread and I use that word very loosely.
[3] Oh you have proof that 95% of wows players are new players? Please share your source of information. Otherwise we will just have to assume you are once again substituting your opinion as if it were a fact.
[4] See point 3. If "everyone" went back to EQ, then why didn't its subscription numbers go back up? See how flawed your comments are? It is as if you don't even look at the information you post and see that it exposes the fallacy of your claims.
[5] See point 4
[6] You do realize that, according to your charts (which everyone and their mother has known about for years) that the overall size of the active mmo market during wows release was 7-8 million players right? That doesn't even count the people who tried EQ-Daoc-AC-etc and left the genre. When a new game releases that kicks ass and the population of wow takes a nose dive, I won't have a hard time figuring out where they all went. I see that as being a simple matter of common sense.
Anyhow, trust me when I say this. You have not educated me on anything as you seem to think you have. In fact I feel the exact oposite effect after reading your statements.
OMG... lol
Hey dude, you are completely lost... There is a CHART right there. If you can't read it, nor understand it, then it rather obvious this discussion is over your head.
Do I have proof? Yes, it's right there in the chart. DUH..! (lol.. u are that helpless?)
This is so ironic, because I ended my last post with: "Need I say more" because not only do I prove my point, I give a glaring example of newbies entering the market place that is unrefutable. And guess what... you still can't figure it out.
You funny bro...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
1- Why hasn't anyone replicated the succes of Blizzard's WoW? Simple,they aren't Blizzard.
2- All the shitty new releases we're getting these days forces the majority of players to play WoW. Hell, even CCP's EVE-Online is getting a load of new subs. Probably their best growth year and the year is far from finish.
3- A freight train is heading towards the MMO world which will change everything and no one will see it coming , yes I'm talking about Diablo 3.
4- NcSoft , Turbine , and all the other companies that I Can't remember their names since all their MMO's were crappy leaned too much on the WoW platform to form a "New MMO" when in fact it's a cheap version of it but only with more better looking weapons and graphics. And the F2P world *spits out the window* , I won't even start on that subject.
5- Blizzard has and will always deliver , it takes them a while to release anything but when they do release, the world comes to a brief pause to admire the work of art and gameplay.
6- To finish up , besides CCP and Blizzard , I trust no other company when it comes to my MMO experience. Let's just hope that SWtoR and GW2 will be able to deliver , because even I sometimes need diversity , One things for sure , when D3 comes out , I'll probably be playing it up till 2020 if not longer. Played D1 for 4 years and D2 from Xmas 2000 up to 2007.
So as I said, you have no facts. You have a chart that shows wow growing and think that proves wow is made up of 95% newbies as you claimed. Never mind that the chart doesn't show anything of new vs old players in any way.
As for mmogcharts.com, perhaps you are not as familiar with the charts as you claim to be. Let me help you out. See how there were already 7-8 million ACTIVE players in the mmo market when wow released? I would ask you to look at things with an open mind, but at this point it is clear you are going out of your way to see anything other than what you want to. No matter how many people point it out to you. No matter how detailed people explain your failed argument, you just keep on trucking.
1- Why hasn't anyone replicated the succes of Blizzard's WoW? Simple,they aren't Blizzard.
That might sound stupid(no offense), but its actually a nice bit of reverse logic. Games not being successful first, and blizzards games second, but actually literally being successful because they got released by blizzard. I mean theres lots of objective factual information supporting this(every blizzard title being a huge genre defining success).
2- All the shitty new releases we're getting these days forces the majority of players to play WoW. Hell, even CCP's EVE-Online is getting a load of new subs. Probably their best growth year and the year is far from finish.
This is actually true aswell. If we discount "older" games like AoC and Lotro, looking at games like Champions online or sadly Startrek Online ... I mean its hard to imagine that even the devs making those games believed they delivered an awesome game. Maybe MMO publishers these days do not even try? I.e. go for cheap hardware, released a overhyped product for lots of initial sales and then immediatly drop into maintenace mode. Maybe thats financially more viable than trying to actually develope a MMO that could compete with WoW? How much more money would it cost to go from "meh its ok" to "omfg its better than WoW in every way!"?
3- A freight train is heading towards the MMO world which will change everything and no one will see it coming , yes I'm talking about Diablo 3.
Care to elaborate? Im an avid MMO player, but Diablo 3 isnt even on my radar. From the little i know its seriously lacking in everything that makes up a MMO besides get together with a few people and bash some NPCs + grabbing of loot.
4- NcSoft , Turbine , and all the other companies that I Can't remember their names since all their MMO's were crappy leaned too much on the WoW platform to form a "New MMO" when in fact it's a cheap version of it but only with more better looking weapons and graphics. And the F2P world *spits out the window* , I won't even start on that subject.
I recently tried RoM and Allods, and can only say i was shocked. They where so blatently trying to rip me off i can hardly call it a game. Paying $$ to upgrade a weapon, thats more like a digital barbie supershop than a game to me ... Then again im cautiously optimistic with LotROs F2P launch. Im ok with paying for areas, instances or quests. Well to be more precise i would judge it by the price and frequency instead of flatout refusing it.
5- Blizzard has and will always deliver , it takes them a while to release anything but when they do release, the world comes to a brief pause to admire the work of art and gameplay.
I agree, it ties a bit into point 1. WoW has a bit of a bad rep(compared to other blizzard titles), but its actually not bad at all. I think what hurts WoWs rep is that it didnt(couldnt?) stay true to its vision, though that doesnt hurt its technical implementation. I.e. you might disagree with the direction WoW is taking, but its hard to argue with how well they do it.
6- To finish up , besides CCP and Blizzard , I trust no other company when it comes to my MMO experience. Let's just hope that SWtoR and GW2 will be able to deliver , because even I sometimes need diversity , One things for sure , when D3 comes out , I'll probably be playing it up till 2020 if not longer. Played D1 for 4 years and D2 from Xmas 2000 up to 2007.
I think similar, though i have developed some tentative trust to Turbine. I just agreed with alot of their recent decisions pertaining LotRO, Skirmish was nice, F2P is nice, Scaling instances is nice, reworking clunky zones is nice, and a rework of the LI system(there is talk about it) would also be nice.
Save your hatred for other threads; the simple fact is WoW remains king of MMOs for some very simple reasons, amongst which: it works most games work,
it has variety not much at all compared to earlier MMOs, WoW is VERY limited in scope,
it has a large world full of nooks and crannies to explore not large compared to most other games,
it feels like a real world not even remotely, too much instancing and hand holding and the NPCs with !!! over their heads is NOT immersive
and has zones that mostly don't require loading cross boundaries this has been an industry standard since 1999
it has both pve and pvp most games do, but WoW's PvP is god awful
,its quests are quite fun and creative maybe the first 3 times, but having the !! over every NPC and waypoints marked on a minimap really doesn't make it fun at all, and since you have to do a million of these pointless "go here, kill boat 10 times" quests, they lose their fun almost instantly
there are a gazillion cute touches all over the place, there is genuine character and humor throughout the world etc etc this is true
My question is, why has no other game been able to replicate anything like this?
Vanguard, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Darkfall, Eve Online, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies. Need more?
Which of those green MMo's have an e-sport status with real price money? What does that have to do with being a good MMO? Usually esports are really really simple games where it all comes down to the metagame tactics players make up to make up for the lack of in game variables.
Which of those games have 6 kinds of different PvP options. (I include the upcoming rated BG and guild competition already apart from the various arena formats, open world pvp quests, city raids, leveling through PvP and Wintergrasp). Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call and even EverQuest to an extent. Also, a lot of those "6 different kinds" are redundant. It really boils down to battlegrounds, arenas, and free for all. Which of those "6" options includes an ACTUAL siege with persistant territory control, destructible keeps, rams, catapults, siege towers, trebuchets, boiling oil? Oh... none.
I limited the above questions to PvP only just to show how silly that WOW hate is of yours. And I just showed you how wrong you were haha
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
I have a neigbour , He plays WoW, and he used to play Diablo II and when Starcraft II released he bought that one aswell. But he basically refuses to play any other games.
Why is that ???
Hmm..I think there are several games that has at least the "same" scope as WOW
EQ2 for example and LOTRO aswell..and both of these games are much better than WoW in MY opinion.
The reason why WoW became this or that popular and got so and so many subscribers is unknown still, there are simply so many speculations and the simple one is to say it's good , just look at the population !!
Talking about LOTRO and the like (and I would say that when it comes to gameplay and not the story, LOTRO is a WoW clone), well, LOTRO itself at least has a much less polished feel to it than WoW. I am talking about gameplay mechanics here.
I'm going to have to say that for example when playing LOTRO and engaging in combat in the game, I miss WoW's combat system which just doesn't feel as stiff as the other game's system. I would say that the combat system and the polished feel of it add a lot to WoW being such a popular game.
I have a neigbour , He plays WoW, and he used to play Diablo II and when Starcraft II released he bought that one aswell. But he basically refuses to play any other games.
Why is that ???
Hmm..I think there are several games that has at least the "same" scope as WOW
EQ2 for example and LOTRO aswell..and both of these games are much better than WoW in MY opinion.
The reason why WoW became this or that popular and got so and so many subscribers is unknown still, there are simply so many speculations and the simple one is to say it's good , just look at the population !!
Talking about LOTRO and the like (and I would say that when it comes to gameplay and not the story, LOTRO is a WoW clone), well, LOTRO itself at least has a much less polished feel to it than WoW. I am talking about gameplay mechanics here.
I'm going to have to say that for example when playing LOTRO and engaging in combat in the game, I miss WoW's combat system which just doesn't feel as stiff as the other game's system. I would say that the combat system and the polished feel of it add a lot to WoW being such a popular game.
Can you draw any example of how the gameplay of LotRO is similar to WoW? Because i can think of lots of differences but few true similarities. Basically everything from basic Dungeon layout, how groups get together, how crafting works or how the classes are balanced to what is expected of you in groups is totally different.
A class like the captain for example could never exist in WoW because that game has no room for support classes anymore. Same for a warden or loremaster, not a dps class and not the best raid tank, not even a good healer? Youd be kicked out of groups left right and center. Even in classic WoW that would have been considered a bitter pill swallow. Or how about dread? Powerful foes reducing max morale by a huge margin? Its a important mechanic in LotRO entirely absent from WoW, where bigger bosses just do more damage.
In WoW we had huge wave of equalization in the last years, where people basically pointed at other classes and complained until they where "equal". That imho changed the gameplay drastically, nowadays your classchoice is almost degraded to a cosmetics, what you think looks best. Its neat in a way, but miles from how LotRO does it.
Hey dude, you are completely lost... There is a CHART right there. If you can't read it, nor understand it, then it rather obvious this discussion is over your head.
Do I have proof? Yes, it's right there in the chart. DUH..! (lol.. u are that helpless?)
This is so ironic, because I ended my last post with: "Need I say more" because not only do I prove my point, I give a glaring example of newbies entering the market place that is unrefutable. And guess what... you still can't figure it out.
You funny bro...
Looks like you aren't able to read a simple chart... if all people went back to EQ, DAOC or whatever after trying WoW, how comes the subscription numbers of those game didn't raise again a little while after WoW was released?
The answer is simple... because this never happened and is only an imaginary fact born in your wishful thinkings...
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
The only time I lagged badly in DAoC was during a 500 man relic raid, and a 100 man raid encounter in a forest. And that was 2002. Technology has only gotten better, and MMOs have only gotten smaller.
And Darkfall's record largest siege was I believe around 800 people. It was very laggy. But just two days ago I was part of a 200 man battle, little to no lag, and that's a game that has no zones, no instances, and TWITCH BASED FPS COMBAT.
I play WoW and this is why: I go to school, and I work, and I have a social life. WoW is a casual, user-friendly, MMO unlike some that do not have hand holding (which is fine, I also like those) so if ever I have time to geek out and relax and I want to have fun I log into it. Simply as that. And that could be one (of many, there cannot be just one reason) reason as to why. It's a great MMO for those that don't have time. I know people that play MMOs alllll day long, for an entire week, and that is just well...I won't even comment on that. Long story short: there are a lot of casual gamers in this world that simply do not have the time, and maybe temperament, to play something like Eve, which is more complex but very fun....only took me 3 months to get comfortable with it but thats only cuz I was out of school for a semester. I'm debating getting FF14 but even that might have to be put on the backburner until xmas break.
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
The only time I lagged badly in DAoC was during a 500 man relic raid, and a 100 man raid encounter in a forest. And that was 2002. Technology has only gotten better, and MMOs have only gotten smaller.
And Darkfall's record largest siege was I believe around 800 people. It was very laggy. But just two days ago I was part of a 200 man battle, little to no lag, and that's a game that has no zones, no instances, and TWITCH BASED FPS COMBAT.
In an interview Jeff Kaplan (lead designer of WOW and the next MMO from Blizzard) said that DAOC had no cap. He said "well you tried to play until your system crashed/became unplayable".
Which made me laugh and was a fantastic expression how BADLY those games were developped anyway.
Oh btw Garvon3: that's why Wintergrasp is still an open zone you conquer on your server (to have access to vendors and Raid bosses), but the pitched Siege battle itself is limited to 6 fighting Raids (3 Alliance - 3 Horde). That is called sound game design as opposed to "let's crash".
That's 240 people fighting over an animated and destructable Keep and towers with catapults, bombarding tanks, artillery, all mobile of course.
Since the pitched battle and control can change every 2.5 hours, you have those kinds of fights every night on all servers..
Since the measured average playing time of WOW is 4 hours, it's mostly one defending and one offensive battle in one playing session.
You see it's all included. And I must say: 240 people fighting is more than enough: you wouldn't gain one bit of "fun" by saying 400 or 500.
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
The only time I lagged badly in DAoC was during a 500 man relic raid, and a 100 man raid encounter in a forest. And that was 2002. Technology has only gotten better, and MMOs have only gotten smaller.
Yeah Korrigan is obviously a troll or had a bad computer. I remember 300-400 man fights with limited lag (very playable, WG is worse).
I remember a 800-900 man fight were i was a mid inside a keep and the people inside were literally killed but seige, the hibs set up on one side and albs on another and just pounded the castle down , i couldn't even heal (1-3 got off and i had a nice chunk of dex). That was VERY laggy. 100 people on daoc in oen spot = no lag. Other than on some systems which frame slipped right when the first few started loading, but it was spike and disappear (also an effective ).
Before 03 or 04, DAoc did have a server crashign issue if you had 500-600 people in the same spot. But oen patch fixed that and after that the servers didn't crash but your pc might have.
And Darkfall's record largest siege was I believe around 800 people. It was very laggy. But just two days ago I was part of a 200 man battle, little to no lag, and that's a game that has no zones, no instances, and TWITCH BASED FPS COMBAT.
Yep there is no defense for people defending bad network code.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Oh and the 'you couldn't have had more than 100 people in DAoC in one spot' - yeah, you just had a bad computer or used lag as the excuse for being a bad player. I ran relic raids with more than that on my side many times over, and that didnt include the other side.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too. In Darkfall, Eve, Dark Age of Camelot, yup. But more like 500. I doubt WoW could even support 200 people in the same area without dying.
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
The only time I lagged badly in DAoC was during a 500 man relic raid, and a 100 man raid encounter in a forest. And that was 2002. Technology has only gotten better, and MMOs have only gotten smaller.
And Darkfall's record largest siege was I believe around 800 people. It was very laggy. But just two days ago I was part of a 200 man battle, little to no lag, and that's a game that has no zones, no instances, and TWITCH BASED FPS COMBAT.
In an interview Jeff Kaplan (lead designer of WOW and the next MMO from Blizzard) said that DAOC had no cap. He said "well you tried to play until your system crashed/became unplayable".
Which made me laugh and was a fantastic expression how BADLY those games were developped anyway.
You have no clue and are about to eat your words huh.
Oh btw Garvon3: that's why Wintergrasp is still an open zone you conquer on your server (to have access to vendors and Raid bosses), but the pitched Siege battle itself is limited to 6 fighting Raids (3 Alliance - 3 Horde). That is called sound game design as opposed to "let's crash".
Like One the WG lagged the entire server network for its first 9+ months. When ever it started it didn't matter where you were you were lagging in wow. GUD design there.
That's 240 people fighting over an animated and destructable Keep and towers with catapults, bombarding tanks, artillery, all mobile of course.
Lets see daoc segie mobile (moved less tho after all it is seige), check; 240 people, check with NO lag what so ever and very playable up to 600 people; destructable keep, check; destructable inner keep, check; Lager longer battles at the keeps, check; 100s of peopel on top of the keeps walls rainign down there own seige equipment , spells arrows, check; repairable walls and doors, check. Wow, WOW, was surely poorly developed. I mean beating WOW in every catagory listed is just bad development.
Since the pitched battle and control can change every 2.5 hours, you have those kinds of fights every night on all servers..
Wow well lets see i have played wow and daoc, but you haven't or at least you have at max level and in pvp in both. This much is obvious , as these battles happeneed every day and for more than 10-25 minutes, some times they would last hours. Involve tactics to flank the attackers, cut off reneforcment lines to seiged forts, switch seige targets to catch a fort unprepared, attack a seiging sides fort to force them to defend instead of attack. Your right the deepth and frequency of wow open world pvp just dominates.
Since the measured average playing time of WOW is 4 hours, it's mostly one defending and one offensive battle in one playing session.
For a grand total ~20-40 mins pvp (2 battles of 10-20min. give or take 10mins.). Wow , blows me away, of course thats in 3-7 hours of playing.
You see it's all included. And I must say: 240 people fighting is more than enough: you wouldn't gain one bit of "fun" by saying 400 or 500.
This logic is flaweless. And well if 240 is enough so is 100 and if 100 is enough so is 50 and if 50 25, 12, 6,3,1. I mean becuase its all the same right. 240 people is chaos 500 people is just mad, 800 in just makes you smile being there. But then agian you have not experienced this have you.
Was this post made to be refuted or are you really that clueless of daoc pvp?
Still Wow is a great game i love its leveling, but its pvp is it weak aspect and well holding it up as good is just fail.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Comments
That makes sense. I think there are a lot of players, past and present, that are ready for a new mmo. That isn't limited to just wow either. Seeing how many copies of Conan and Warhammer have been sold I think that suggests the time is right for yet another game to achieve massive success.
I consider 1 million+ paying subscribers to be a massive success.
WoW is horrible; it allows hackers in so they can fool players into buying more software to ensure that their accounts are safe; Turbine long ago prevented hackers and gold farmers/spammers in their games. Blizzard admits that their servers and game are not secure unless you give them 40 more dollars for higher security measures for yourself. They also lie about their subscriber numbers; the numbers reported are those who have ever tried the game, subscribed for a month, or bought the game or even used a key; the numbers are inflated and skewed to make people think that this number is a regular subscriber base which it clearly is not; most people left due to these gold farmers and hackers from asia that have a deal with Blizzard to give them a cut of all money made so Blizzard can sell their extra secuity software to prevent their business partners, the hackers, from stealing your in-game characters, loot, and money, and your real-world identities, money, and life. Stick with the ONLY company that cares about their customers and has proven it time and time again, and that would be Turbine. They even made LOTRO a WoW-ish clone but did it MUCH better and is the first game to ever get crafting completely right; LOTRO goes F2P Sept. 10, and DDO is already free, so why would anybody in their right mind pay to play garbage like WoW and also constantly get their accounts hacked?
Everyone who played in a good organised and social guild can see these results are logical..
MMO's are not really popular with young teenagers (console players) and the 84% male, 16% female feels about right.
Important to note is that older players tend to stay much longer in a game and will not switch that easely (older people are much more conservative in choices).
22.7 hours/week played shows the average player is still a moderate hardcore player. That doesn't mean they all play the same way though. An error most posters make.
Eh... the survey says it's from 2005?
Not that actual anymore or representative for current day and age.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The fail is strong in this one.
Turbine dropped the ball with their 'offer wall' and exposed all their customers private information to hackers and spammers.
LINK
Turbine accounts are just as vulnerable as any other game.
LINK1
LINK2
LINK3
LINK4
LINK5
Otherwise you tell an very entertaining story.
Well, if nothing else the idea about LOTRO crafting being the best is kinda sad, Vanguard have a lot better crafting and so do EQ2.
And Blizzards security is ok besides the mail thing, letting people see your mail is bad but not a disaster.
MMO security is not that bad generally, people are just bad on security. Logging in to webpages as phising mails told them to, answering "blizzard" with their password, using add ons and not keeping an updated viruskiller is begging for problem.
Blizzard is neither better or worse than anyone else, the difference is that there is a lot more money into Wow than anything else.
The real problem is idiots buying gold, that often comes from stolen accounts. If you buy gold it is your own fault if someone hacks your account in any game.
FFXi runs on consoles,FFXI imo has always been ahead of Blizzard and Wow.Content wise FFXI wins out,design FFXI wins out,class diversity along with the sub class system again wins out.Now Square will beat Blizzard to the gun again by releasing their next gen game FFXIV.Blizzard is still years away,sad such a giant is so far behind the competition,but i guess as long as people feed them money there is no pressure to perform.
Just remember this at one time Vivendi couldn't give blizzard away even at a much lower than rated worth.Joining forces with another giant in marketing and using/paying NPD group to further falsify the hype,they are going to continue to succeed more than they deserve.At one time Blizzard could not eve nmake SC:Ghost for console,the yhad to hire outside their giant company to make it for them.Even after 2 fails Blizzard still could not do SC2,so sat it on the shelf for years.End result...SC2 released as a low tech game once again,right on par with the way Blizzard operates.I think it is a no brainer that Blizzard did NOT use low tech to garner more players,otherwise they would have made Wow work on console as well,but instead opted to eliminate that fanbase from the equation.Once again Square beats out Blizzard by making FFXi run on both PC and console.
If anyone cannot see the fluke that made Wow ,then just imagine there were only 2 games to release into the MMO fray with 15+ million new mmo gamers and back it up to 2005.There is a pretty good chance that one of those games would have 10 million gamers.Now a days this will never happen again,ther is too many choices and most gamers are settled into one game or another.I would guesstimate that the MMO community gains MAYBE 1-2 million new gamers each year with maybe another 3 million game hoppers,so there is no chance any released game is going above 3mil.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Which of those green MMo's have an e-sport status with real price money?
Which of those games have 6 kinds of different PvP options. (I include the upcoming rated BG and guild competition already apart from the various arena formats, open world pvp quests, city raids, leveling through PvP and Wintergrasp).
I limited the above questions to PvP only just to show how silly that WOW hate is of yours.
And I guess having > 200 people fighting over a SIege system in the REAL open world of Wintergrasp can be found every night mulitple times on those games too.
OMG... lol
Hey dude, you are completely lost... There is a CHART right there. If you can't read it, nor understand it, then it rather obvious this discussion is over your head.
Do I have proof? Yes, it's right there in the chart. DUH..! (lol.. u are that helpless?)
This is so ironic, because I ended my last post with: "Need I say more" because not only do I prove my point, I give a glaring example of newbies entering the market place that is unrefutable. And guess what... you still can't figure it out.
You funny bro...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
1- Why hasn't anyone replicated the succes of Blizzard's WoW? Simple,they aren't Blizzard.
2- All the shitty new releases we're getting these days forces the majority of players to play WoW. Hell, even CCP's EVE-Online is getting a load of new subs. Probably their best growth year and the year is far from finish.
3- A freight train is heading towards the MMO world which will change everything and no one will see it coming , yes I'm talking about Diablo 3.
4- NcSoft , Turbine , and all the other companies that I Can't remember their names since all their MMO's were crappy leaned too much on the WoW platform to form a "New MMO" when in fact it's a cheap version of it but only with more better looking weapons and graphics. And the F2P world *spits out the window* , I won't even start on that subject.
5- Blizzard has and will always deliver , it takes them a while to release anything but when they do release, the world comes to a brief pause to admire the work of art and gameplay.
6- To finish up , besides CCP and Blizzard , I trust no other company when it comes to my MMO experience. Let's just hope that SWtoR and GW2 will be able to deliver , because even I sometimes need diversity , One things for sure , when D3 comes out , I'll probably be playing it up till 2020 if not longer. Played D1 for 4 years and D2 from Xmas 2000 up to 2007.
@Phelcher
So as I said, you have no facts. You have a chart that shows wow growing and think that proves wow is made up of 95% newbies as you claimed. Never mind that the chart doesn't show anything of new vs old players in any way.
As for mmogcharts.com, perhaps you are not as familiar with the charts as you claim to be. Let me help you out. See how there were already 7-8 million ACTIVE players in the mmo market when wow released? I would ask you to look at things with an open mind, but at this point it is clear you are going out of your way to see anything other than what you want to. No matter how many people point it out to you. No matter how detailed people explain your failed argument, you just keep on trucking.
Good luck with that.
Talking about LOTRO and the like (and I would say that when it comes to gameplay and not the story, LOTRO is a WoW clone), well, LOTRO itself at least has a much less polished feel to it than WoW. I am talking about gameplay mechanics here.
I'm going to have to say that for example when playing LOTRO and engaging in combat in the game, I miss WoW's combat system which just doesn't feel as stiff as the other game's system. I would say that the combat system and the polished feel of it add a lot to WoW being such a popular game.
Can you draw any example of how the gameplay of LotRO is similar to WoW? Because i can think of lots of differences but few true similarities. Basically everything from basic Dungeon layout, how groups get together, how crafting works or how the classes are balanced to what is expected of you in groups is totally different.
A class like the captain for example could never exist in WoW because that game has no room for support classes anymore. Same for a warden or loremaster, not a dps class and not the best raid tank, not even a good healer? Youd be kicked out of groups left right and center. Even in classic WoW that would have been considered a bitter pill swallow. Or how about dread? Powerful foes reducing max morale by a huge margin? Its a important mechanic in LotRO entirely absent from WoW, where bigger bosses just do more damage.
In WoW we had huge wave of equalization in the last years, where people basically pointed at other classes and complained until they where "equal". That imho changed the gameplay drastically, nowadays your classchoice is almost degraded to a cosmetics, what you think looks best. Its neat in a way, but miles from how LotRO does it.
Looks like you aren't able to read a simple chart... if all people went back to EQ, DAOC or whatever after trying WoW, how comes the subscription numbers of those game didn't raise again a little while after WoW was released?
The answer is simple... because this never happened and is only an imaginary fact born in your wishful thinkings...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If you pretend DAoC was even able to support more than 100 people in the same place without lagging like hell, then your posts aren't exactly trustworthy. Same goes for Darkfall... please, don't try to kid us, many here played those games too
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The only time I lagged badly in DAoC was during a 500 man relic raid, and a 100 man raid encounter in a forest. And that was 2002. Technology has only gotten better, and MMOs have only gotten smaller.
And Darkfall's record largest siege was I believe around 800 people. It was very laggy. But just two days ago I was part of a 200 man battle, little to no lag, and that's a game that has no zones, no instances, and TWITCH BASED FPS COMBAT.
Sure thing ...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I play WoW and this is why: I go to school, and I work, and I have a social life. WoW is a casual, user-friendly, MMO unlike some that do not have hand holding (which is fine, I also like those) so if ever I have time to geek out and relax and I want to have fun I log into it. Simply as that. And that could be one (of many, there cannot be just one reason) reason as to why. It's a great MMO for those that don't have time. I know people that play MMOs alllll day long, for an entire week, and that is just well...I won't even comment on that. Long story short: there are a lot of casual gamers in this world that simply do not have the time, and maybe temperament, to play something like Eve, which is more complex but very fun....only took me 3 months to get comfortable with it but thats only cuz I was out of school for a semester. I'm debating getting FF14 but even that might have to be put on the backburner until xmas break.
In an interview Jeff Kaplan (lead designer of WOW and the next MMO from Blizzard) said that DAOC had no cap. He said "well you tried to play until your system crashed/became unplayable".
Which made me laugh and was a fantastic expression how BADLY those games were developped anyway.
Oh btw Garvon3: that's why Wintergrasp is still an open zone you conquer on your server (to have access to vendors and Raid bosses), but the pitched Siege battle itself is limited to 6 fighting Raids (3 Alliance - 3 Horde). That is called sound game design as opposed to "let's crash".
That's 240 people fighting over an animated and destructable Keep and towers with catapults, bombarding tanks, artillery, all mobile of course.
Since the pitched battle and control can change every 2.5 hours, you have those kinds of fights every night on all servers..
Since the measured average playing time of WOW is 4 hours, it's mostly one defending and one offensive battle in one playing session.
You see it's all included. And I must say: 240 people fighting is more than enough: you wouldn't gain one bit of "fun" by saying 400 or 500.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpmy7Ze18NY
That is why...
Oh and the 'you couldn't have had more than 100 people in DAoC in one spot' - yeah, you just had a bad computer or used lag as the excuse for being a bad player.
I ran relic raids with more than that on my side many times over, and that didnt include the other side.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Was this post made to be refuted or are you really that clueless of daoc pvp?
Still Wow is a great game i love its leveling, but its pvp is it weak aspect and well holding it up as good is just fail.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine