It's relevant because it breaks down the whole 'timing' reason as to why WoW was successfull. Yes, timing did have something to do with WoW's success, but how does that explain why EQ2 was not successfull? Both launched at the same exact time (2 weeks apart). You're earlier post poopooed the fact that EQ2 had a higher barrier of entry as far as system requirements go, but that's a key aspect. The casual fan that plays WoW doesn't have the rig to run something like EQ2. So because of this EQ2 eliminates a substantial amount of potential subs because those players can't even run the game.
WoW is successfull because of 'accessibility'. The old school MMO player can't wrap their head around this, because their wired to configure their pc to run the latest and greatest stuff. They can't understand accessibility because they have been conditioned to spend hours running a raid into 1-2am. The non-MMO player (non pc player) doesn't know anything about that. They need the preconfigured Dell or HP PC at Best Buy to run stuff out of the box. The 40 year old housewife doesn't know how to change video card settings to disable AA to make the game run smoother. The 35 year old office worker doesn't have time to do a 4 hour raid that requires an hour just to set up because he's got to get up at 6am the next day for work.
WoW eliminates all of those barriers. You don't need a great PC to run it. You don't need tons of time to devote to it. And still to this day, no other game out there right now provides this experience, where all these pre-conditioned barriers that are synonomous with MMORPG's are removed. Add in marketing and word of mouth and you arrive at where we are at now.
Blizzard is an amazingly well run company with checks, balances and quality control at every turn. I bet they even quality check when somebody puts a new toilet paper roll in the bathroom..."Hey, Jablonski...it's rolling the wrong way...shut down the bathroom for 24 hours for maintenance!"
When you get into College, you might understand marketing better. There is no mystery how WoW was able to grow like it did.
Oh really? Soe must have somehow forbid players from buying their game then, right? Perhaps customers at best buy and ebgames could not see the EQ2 boxes sitting right next to the world of warcraft boxes, because marketing made them invisible right?
Perhaps EQ2 has a shitty game engine that murdered its performance and that is a big reason why people were not attracted to it? Oh no, people just didn't know about other mmos. Strange how the quality of a game engine might have an adverse effect on a games popularity and be relevent in a thread about the lack of quality in mmos over the last 6 years.
Personally i think its a mix of herd mentality and critical mass aswell as media exposure. I was able to observe it with my young cousin, he wasnt even interested in any of the niche MMOs, didnt even consider them even after me telling him how great some of them are. He was interested in WoW, because some of his friends played it, and when he couldnt afford it he played F2P Metin in think it was called, again because of friends.
I think it has a bit to do with age aswell, as we are younger we try to associate with our classmates and same age friends etc. If your friends play football your not suddenly get interested in cricket or something, atleast thats the exception. By the same logic older players are sometimes uncomfortable venturing into MMOs on their own, they get introduced by nephews, sons etc, creating a vicious cycle.
So imho the success of WoW was appealing to the right crowd at the right time(still surfing on the high that was Warcraft + Starcraft), and then expanding by word of mouth and clever advertising. At its current point you have people who are unsatisfied with WoW, yet keep playing because all their friends are playing it(not only the ones that introduced you to it, but also the ones you met ingame). Maybe we will at one point see that critical mass backfire and WoW loose players at a horrendous rate when that social network breaks up, or maybe not.
The reason no one else can do it is because they where unable to built up momentum. Example Warhammer, here is what should have happened:
1. Hype up the game, make people crave it.
2. Release a solid fundation and snare up about a million subscribers.
3. Use the income to hire more devs, to be able to react to the communities complains and attract new groups with new features while polishing your game.
4. Slowly overtake WoW by doing everything it does but better.
Points 1. and 2. worked only soso, the fundation wasnt as solid as they could have wished, and the snare didnt last long enough. At 3. they failed totally, instead of hireing new Devs, they had to fire old ones. Instead of attracting new groups with new features/gameplay they struggled to fix bugs/gross imbalances. 4. Was just a dream by then, even with the older technology holding it back, WoW actually had a much faster release schedule bringing more interesting new content.
The thing many people get muddy over is how the launch and first months of WoW have been, and how ... well bad it was initially. But we(i played from launch) stuck around, we kept paying them our money and didnt jump ship(i speak from personal experience when i say we where holding games to a different standard back then). We gave the devs the time and money they needed to make it into the product we have today.
Personally i think given half a year more devtime, and more devs working on features Warhammer could actually have become big. It wasnt conceptually flawed, it was technically flawed in many small places. Take away all the technical problems and class/pop imbalances and i see it clearly on WoW BC level. Biggest error imho i can think of was going with only 2 factions and mirrored classes. It worked for WoW, but WoW never tried to do any sort of openpvp city sieging etc, where the pop imbalances between horde and alliance you have on practically every server could rear its ugly head.
So yeah maybe it was conceptually flawed after all.
Thats also the reason why i dont think the SW MMO will be as successful as many think. Sadly its not just down to how good a game is, human nature comes into it aswell, and many games with good potential got canned due to it(or simply never reached their potential). And thats not even going into external causes, like when a publisher lays of half your team due to financial troubles, do try to make a good game in circumstances like that!
Being 40 doesn't equal being mature as you have demonstrated by spewing insults everywhere. Not to mention you have no idea what gaming experience others have.
I'm 41, will be 42 in October, and I think you should try to act your age and stop belittling people who happen to disagree with your view of what a perfect world should be.
I've been playing graphical MMORPGs since UO beta and played all mainstream ones and many smaller ones, and text-only MUDs before UO, I was playing tabletop RPGs (DnD, Stormbringer, Cthulhu, etc...) 25+ years ago when I was 12-13 years old, yet I think WoW is a good and fun game. What are ya gonna do now, since you can't call me a kid?
Just my 2 cents.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
1) Even with your claims of what blizzard was aiming for, they still managed to steal half of EQs subscribers and every other mmo that was on the market. I really don't think you understand how broad the design for wow really was and how many types of players it targets.
2) Gee really, wow is sold outside of the US. Thank you for informing me of that, I would have never known if you didn't come along.
Seriously can you ever make a point without stooping to insults as a replacement for discussion?
It doesn't matter what part of the world you want to point to, wow still outsold its competition by millions of players. You can try to derail as much as you like, but it doesn't change the facts.
Thanks.. but you are more diplomatic, than I choose to be.
We share the same pedigree of past games. I noticed you gave yourself some respect and didn't call WoW the best game.. so I have no rebuttals.
Calling people who disagree with you "kids" isn't a rebuttal... it's just more childish than those people have ever been. Insulting people has never been a valid argument, only a display of how insecure you are about your own beliefs.
And I think WoW is better than most of those "past games", notably EQ. Basically, WoW, with it's polish, it's quality and quantity of content, beats any past "Class/Level/Endgame" (aka EQ clone) based game. Games like EQ could only work then because they had almost no concurence - UO was something else, a sandbox game. Today, a tedious game like EQ would never work. You can be king of the hill with a crap game when you are the only contender for the title, not when you have a ton of other, better games, on the market. LOTRO also completely crushes EQ, hell, even EQ2 is miles above the tedious crap EQ has been.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
First.. What is so open and seamless to WoW at "end game"........ NOT a DAMN THING.. The only thing open and seamless at end game is doing a handful of dailys and WG every 2.5 hours.. Once you hit max level 90% of your game is instanced.. such as Dungeons, Raids, Arenas and Battleground.. So if I was your I would revise you comment and stance to "open and seamless leveling to 80, then instancing after that"...
I'm still waiting for the serious explanation on why "hard capped" raids are better way to run raids vs open limit.. I'm still waiting why instanced housing is better vs. none.. I'm still waiting to hear why a simplistic economy game is better vs complex meaningful player economy.. I'm still waiting to hear why battlegrounds is better vs contested zones and areas that effect the game world from day to day.. I keep asking and it seems as always my request keep getting ignored or glanced over..
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
First.. What is so open and seamless to WoW at "end game"........ NOT a DAMN THING.. The only thing open and seamless at end game is doing a handful of dailys and WG every 2.5 hours.. Once you hit max level 90% of your game is instanced.. such as Dungeons, Raids, Arenas and Battleground.. So if I was your I would revise you comment and stance to "open and seamless leveling to 80, then instancing after that"...
I'm still waiting for the serious explanation on why "hard capped" raids are better way to run raids vs open limit.. I'm still waiting why instanced housing is better vs. none.. I'm still waiting to hear why a simplistic economy game is better vs complex meaningful player economy.. I'm still waiting to hear why battlegrounds is better vs contested zones and areas that effect the game world from day to day.. I keep asking and it seems as always my request keep getting ignored or glanced over..
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
Player housing is just fluff. I agree with the battleground things but it doesn't make sense anymore since its cross server now.
Calling someone a "kid" is insulting since you do not know what each person's age is. There are people older than you that play WoW and if they come here to express their opinion, you just plainly go on insulting your "elders" by calling them kids.
And the fact that you can sit there and write that WoW has not changed at all since it launched 6 years ago only points that you lack the simple powers of observation that most of us were gifted with at birth. Calling people WoW'tards is another way that you fail to observe the simple fact that people should, regardless of age, treat each other with respect. You then go on calling WoW a turd, simply because it does not appeal to you. WoW no longer appeals to me either, but that game is far from being a turd.
What WoW does is that it appeals to most, not to everyone. THAT, my clueless elder, is Blizzard's secret sauce. They make MOST people happy, not EVERYONE. That's what makes WoW the most successful MMOG from a business perspective. Let's not forget the fact that Blizzard is in business to make money. They were able to make computer gaming more attractive to the "non-gamer" whilst providing so called real gamers some meat around a bone. While the meat may not appeal to everyone, it appeals to most players still paying good money to the folks at Blizzard. They have been able to, year after year, attract new players. They probably have the most community supported mods of any other MMOG out there. They have a slew of merchandising, have the most sought out accounts to hack, have the most amount of phishing emails sent out and are generally constantly and invariably defined as the MMOG giant to beat. This is due to great marketing and mass appeal.
That's how WoW has been a success, year after year, and has set a benchmark for future titles to compare themselves with. While I find it sad that WoW's commercial success is often taken as such a benchmark, it makes it that MMOG tittles often try to imitate WoW instead of trying to set itself apart. That's why a lot of title fail...they try too hard; over-hyped and under-delivered.
So, Phelcher, I would kindly ask you, as many before me have I'm sure, that you refrain from insulting people with your useless raging comments and try to post something that actually contributes to the content of this thread. Try to set an example to these young people by setting an example yourself. Stop insulting everyone that likes and enjoys WoW and try to earn some respect. Then again, with a name like Phelcher, you should probably do a little more phelching and less raging; that might make you a little less grumpy.
It is all so easy to see those 7 points I explained earlier why the game was and is a success.
If you don't agree. No problem, but all the wise guys don't seem to grasp these game mechanics.
Instead the wise guys talk about "principles and vague ideas".
The first question they should ask: is my idea contributing to a better individual video game experience ? ...
Here a few examples:
Standing on a boss with 90 people instead of 25 ... how is that more "epic" if the fight isn't attuned ...
Standing over a pixeled land to defend over a week or days ... how is that more "epic" in a video game where you are NOT 24/24 on line ?
How is it more epic to LOG into a game situation where you have absolutely NO control over conquered things except to accept you'll be screwed for the next 10 days and probably (if it is server based) ... screwed for the next 3 months included.
Instead a good game designer has to view at the individual gamer and looks at what makes him log in.
Award the guy - compared to his/her - abilities and create a very smart system of progress (from very easy to very difficult).
That should be the design of your future MMO's. Not some vague ideas with hampered gameplay and lacking responsive moves. The unresponsiveness of MMO avatars in other games is a l a u g h guys !
In fact it should be very EASY to top WOW. But why oh why do I see the same mistakes for 5 full years now.
Perhaps most designers are indeed not very bright or simply lack the resources. Probably a combo of both.
Taking my 7 points I already see the writing on the wall for games like FF14 and SWTOR. Because when I already can pinpoint 2 out of 7 points not present in those games... well it's so obvious.
Why don't their makers see it (like funcom or mythic didn't see it)? I saw it. And I am just an ordinary guy from next door, waiting to see at least SOMETHING. But no ... nothing comes out of it. Pure and simple nothing (to cite the OP)...
Yep, WoW is the most polished one, yep its advertisement are king, not hard to be king with that income,
but no im not playing anymore, i moved on to other games. Beeing most professional / most polished won't keep me entertained forever, even if other games have more flaws, if they have more innovation i will go there. Besides while the game is good, the policies and "features" arround it seem to rot with its age as they get worse and worse.
First.. What is so open and seamless to WoW at "end game"........ NOT a DAMN THING.. The only thing open and seamless at end game is doing a handful of dailys and WG every 2.5 hours.. Once you hit max level 90% of your game is instanced.. such as Dungeons, Raids, Arenas and Battleground.. So if I was your I would revise you comment and stance to "open and seamless leveling to 80, then instancing after that"...
I'm still waiting for the serious explanation on why "hard capped" raids are better way to run raids vs open limit.. I'm still waiting why instanced housing is better vs. none.. I'm still waiting to hear why a simplistic economy game is better vs complex meaningful player economy.. I'm still waiting to hear why battlegrounds is better vs contested zones and areas that effect the game world from day to day.. I keep asking and it seems as always my request keep getting ignored or glanced over..
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
Looking at the effect housing/guild halls has had on the cities in EQ2 I think no more needs to really be said. It is a great example of something "cool" that has had an overall negative effect on the game.
I am all for real housing in the real world like UO/SWG, but that has an impact on the worlds terrain and was very problematic when dealing with people who leave the game and also when they return. Instanced housing is nice for those who simply must have a house, but it isn't very immersive. At the same time it tends to suck players out of the communal areas and make the game worlds appear deserted.
Looking at the effect housing/guild halls has had on the cities in EQ2 I think no more needs to really be said. It is a great example of something "cool" that has had an overall negative effect on the game.
Using one bad example doesn't make a feature automatically bad all the time.
Housing in LOTRO added a very fun side game while not affecting world and city population at all.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Anyone who believes Everquest was the pinnacle of game design needs to rethink the term. Camping an item for hours on end is not good game design. Requiring your players to devote a substantial amount of time to only be 'average' is not good game design. You know who initially started playing WoW when it launched? It wasn't casuals like it is today. It was EQ vets that were so fed up with the game mechanics of Everquest and the stupid design decisions of SoE. Everquest had become a dinosaur way before 2004. In fact that game has evolved so much that EQ today is not even the same game anymore.
I've been playing MMO's since UO. Played EQ for 4 years (1999 - 2003). Played AC, AO and DAoC too during that time. I'm telling you right now when WoW launched it was such a breath of fresh air to so many players (MMO players) that it's not even funny.
You like the old stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. But the industry (and it's players) have moved on. You would have to pay me (and a ton of other 'ex players) to play EQ circa 1999. You know what happened? We all grew up. We all don't have the time anymore. We don't have as much dedication to a game anymore. That 18 year that started playing EQ when it launched? He's almost 30 now. He's got a family and a job and doesn't have 5-6 hours a night to devote to a game.
Its simple....WOW changed the landscape of the MMO playerbase. Since market share is VERY important to the Game publishing companies that have the dollars needed to have a successful game.....unless you can wrestle away marketshare from WOW, its a no go.
Prior to WOW, MMO gaming was a gaming niche for a more mature audience that had the time to dedicate to a long term progression based game style that had a high focus on a players interactions in the community. It was the relationships that kept you loggin in....the strange phenomina of the late 90s that you could actually play with (or against) another person half way across the country. The game play was very deep, and often times difficult.....playing on the notion that the more challenging something is to get...the higher value you place in it. Community + High Attributed Value to your Assets = Player Retention.
WOW has broken down many of those barriers and put up their own. They've made a MMO game more appealing to more people by reducing the learning curve, making it more graphicly appealing to a larger percentage of the gaming market, and introduced a more casual gaming experience.
WOW is more appealing to console gamers, FPSers and other casual gamer types because of those reasons previously stated. Hence....why you have double digit millions of subs with WOW when EQ topped out at just 1 million a few million years prior.
SO.....unless your new game can wrestle away market share from a MMO market full of casual gamers that previously didn't play MMOs, then forget about the EAs, NCSofts of the world giving you the cash required to compete with the likes of WOW.
Good luck convincing the majority of the WOW playerbase to embrase a game design that doesn't revolve around epic items farmed from monsters, or a game that has death penaltys, FFA PvP, Territory Battles, Sandbox environment...etc.
Yea yea yea....adapt old man or GTFO. I'm just saying....when these casual gamers get board of WOW, they can pick up Call of Duty, Red Dead Redemption, or any one of the other single player titles that suit their play style. Where are the people who like the depth and breath of a challenging fantasy world supposed to go when they've been kicked out of their niche?
Yea yea yea....adapt old man or GTFO. I'm just saying....when these casual gamers get board of WOW, they can pick up Call of Duty, Red Dead Redemption, or any one of the other single player titles that suit their play style. Where are the people who like the depth and breath of a challenging fantasy world supposed to go when they've been kicked out of their niche?
There is plenty of stuff out there now to satify that requirement. You just have to know going in that whatever game that is, it's not going to have the population or perhaps all the elements that you would want. Or play some the old school stuff, UO is still around.
Well first thing that comes to my mind is it takes 4-5 years to develop a game. Age of Conan took 5, and yet it failed to meet expectations. (Sure it can take lower, but one look at STO and you know why a GOOD game needs multiple years)
So really based on that time frame, add a year or two to figure out that WoW was a smashing commericial success, and you then have to find someway to take it over. Enter end of 2010-2011 and we will see what comes of WoW.
Can it withstand the new beast on the street and survive with ease, or will it be hammered away quickly?
Very few companies earned respect that Blizzard did years before it released a MMO, only ones that I can think of that comes close would be Bioware and Square Enix, but Blizzard built Battle.net and had millions playing their games online before any other company dared.
I mean look, not even one other company has made a battle.net that was successful. A few tried, they all failed. Blizzard in all purposes is the "token" gaming company(at least before the joining with Activision)
First.. What is so open and seamless to WoW at "end game"........ NOT a DAMN THING.. The only thing open and seamless at end game is doing a handful of dailys and WG every 2.5 hours.. Once you hit max level 90% of your game is instanced.. such as Dungeons, Raids, Arenas and Battleground.. So if I was your I would revise you comment and stance to "open and seamless leveling to 80, then instancing after that"...
I'm still waiting for the serious explanation on why "hard capped" raids are better way to run raids vs open limit.. I'm still waiting why instanced housing is better vs. none.. I'm still waiting to hear why a simplistic economy game is better vs complex meaningful player economy.. I'm still waiting to hear why battlegrounds is better vs contested zones and areas that effect the game world from day to day.. I keep asking and it seems as always my request keep getting ignored or glanced over..
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
Player housing is just fluff. I agree with the battleground things but it doesn't make sense anymore since its cross server now.
That is all player housing is... You can have a ridiculously shitty game , but throw in some player housing and "oOoOO shiny look what we got , we haz player housing" woopty doo doo Player housing don't mean shit when there aren't any players around to see it anyways.
Or play some the old school stuff, UO is still around.
If they upgrade UO exactly like it is right now, but with real state of the art 3D graphics and 3D sound like all games have nowadays, I'll be back there without even thinking twice. UO still has awesome gameplay, I just have a hard time getting immersed in that very old technology anymore.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'll give you a 150 million reasons why it's the 900 lb gorilla, and that's a month. They better inovate and be the most polished game. They take in on a monthly basis the same amount as was budgeted to create a new game like SW:ToR. So to answer your question its all about the money. WoW has got a metric shit ton coming in and they actually use some of it to improve and maintain the game.
Yea yea yea....adapt old man or GTFO. I'm just saying....when these casual gamers get board of WOW, they can pick up Call of Duty, Red Dead Redemption, or any one of the other single player titles that suit their play style. Where are the people who like the depth and breath of a challenging fantasy world supposed to go when they've been kicked out of their niche?
There is plenty of stuff out there now to satify that requirement. You just have to know going in that whatever game that is, it's not going to have the population or perhaps all the elements that you would want. Or play some the old school stuff, UO is still around.
Yea...cause complete & polished games (in 3D) aren't allowed to be traditional MMOs.
The alternatives:
UO: now resembles a 2D version of WOW more than its former self. Not to mention its latest graphical upgrade makes it 2.5D.
EVE: Space combat sandbox that is void of any and all action that only provides a visual of your ships HUD.
MO: Underfunded, Underdeveloped game with outdated technology due to scarse funds in a First Person ONLY view (See previous comments about AAA publishing companies)
DF: See MO
You can't get the money to complete and polish a game that is competitive without the dollars. You can't get the dollars unless you move the needle on the NEW MMO marketshare. You can't appeal to a substantial portion of the NEW MMO marketshare unless it appeals to casual game play and instant gratification types that play WOW.
End result is Mortal Online & Dark Fall....we all know how that shook out.
First.. What is so open and seamless to WoW at "end game"........ NOT a DAMN THING.. The only thing open and seamless at end game is doing a handful of dailys and WG every 2.5 hours.. Once you hit max level 90% of your game is instanced.. such as Dungeons, Raids, Arenas and Battleground.. So if I was your I would revise you comment and stance to "open and seamless leveling to 80, then instancing after that"...
I'm still waiting for the serious explanation on why "hard capped" raids are better way to run raids vs open limit.. I'm still waiting why instanced housing is better vs. none.. I'm still waiting to hear why a simplistic economy game is better vs complex meaningful player economy.. I'm still waiting to hear why battlegrounds is better vs contested zones and areas that effect the game world from day to day.. I keep asking and it seems as always my request keep getting ignored or glanced over..
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
Player housing is just fluff. I agree with the battleground things but it doesn't make sense anymore since its cross server now.
That is all player housing is... You can have a ridiculously shitty game , but throw in some player housing and "oOoOO shiny look what we got , we haz player housing" woopty doo doo Player housing don't mean shit when there aren't any players around to see it anyways.
Its called "Consumer Generated Content". Pick up a marketing book some time and check it out. People like to play a part in creating their experience....this is a marketing phenomina that applys across most industrys (not just gaming)
Aside from that, player housing fits in a game that focuses on creating a fantasy real life experience and one that focuses on community. WOW focuses on action game play....hence why there is no player housing.
Comments
It's relevant because it breaks down the whole 'timing' reason as to why WoW was successfull. Yes, timing did have something to do with WoW's success, but how does that explain why EQ2 was not successfull? Both launched at the same exact time (2 weeks apart). You're earlier post poopooed the fact that EQ2 had a higher barrier of entry as far as system requirements go, but that's a key aspect. The casual fan that plays WoW doesn't have the rig to run something like EQ2. So because of this EQ2 eliminates a substantial amount of potential subs because those players can't even run the game.
WoW is successfull because of 'accessibility'. The old school MMO player can't wrap their head around this, because their wired to configure their pc to run the latest and greatest stuff. They can't understand accessibility because they have been conditioned to spend hours running a raid into 1-2am. The non-MMO player (non pc player) doesn't know anything about that. They need the preconfigured Dell or HP PC at Best Buy to run stuff out of the box. The 40 year old housewife doesn't know how to change video card settings to disable AA to make the game run smoother. The 35 year old office worker doesn't have time to do a 4 hour raid that requires an hour just to set up because he's got to get up at 6am the next day for work.
WoW eliminates all of those barriers. You don't need a great PC to run it. You don't need tons of time to devote to it. And still to this day, no other game out there right now provides this experience, where all these pre-conditioned barriers that are synonomous with MMORPG's are removed. Add in marketing and word of mouth and you arrive at where we are at now.
Blizzard is an amazingly well run company with checks, balances and quality control at every turn. I bet they even quality check when somebody puts a new toilet paper roll in the bathroom..."Hey, Jablonski...it's rolling the wrong way...shut down the bathroom for 24 hours for maintenance!"
Oh really? Soe must have somehow forbid players from buying their game then, right? Perhaps customers at best buy and ebgames could not see the EQ2 boxes sitting right next to the world of warcraft boxes, because marketing made them invisible right?
Perhaps EQ2 has a shitty game engine that murdered its performance and that is a big reason why people were not attracted to it? Oh no, people just didn't know about other mmos. Strange how the quality of a game engine might have an adverse effect on a games popularity and be relevent in a thread about the lack of quality in mmos over the last 6 years.
Why don't you stick to talking about hamburgers.
Personally i think its a mix of herd mentality and critical mass aswell as media exposure. I was able to observe it with my young cousin, he wasnt even interested in any of the niche MMOs, didnt even consider them even after me telling him how great some of them are. He was interested in WoW, because some of his friends played it, and when he couldnt afford it he played F2P Metin in think it was called, again because of friends.
I think it has a bit to do with age aswell, as we are younger we try to associate with our classmates and same age friends etc. If your friends play football your not suddenly get interested in cricket or something, atleast thats the exception. By the same logic older players are sometimes uncomfortable venturing into MMOs on their own, they get introduced by nephews, sons etc, creating a vicious cycle.
So imho the success of WoW was appealing to the right crowd at the right time(still surfing on the high that was Warcraft + Starcraft), and then expanding by word of mouth and clever advertising. At its current point you have people who are unsatisfied with WoW, yet keep playing because all their friends are playing it(not only the ones that introduced you to it, but also the ones you met ingame). Maybe we will at one point see that critical mass backfire and WoW loose players at a horrendous rate when that social network breaks up, or maybe not.
The reason no one else can do it is because they where unable to built up momentum. Example Warhammer, here is what should have happened:
1. Hype up the game, make people crave it.
2. Release a solid fundation and snare up about a million subscribers.
3. Use the income to hire more devs, to be able to react to the communities complains and attract new groups with new features while polishing your game.
4. Slowly overtake WoW by doing everything it does but better.
Points 1. and 2. worked only soso, the fundation wasnt as solid as they could have wished, and the snare didnt last long enough. At 3. they failed totally, instead of hireing new Devs, they had to fire old ones. Instead of attracting new groups with new features/gameplay they struggled to fix bugs/gross imbalances. 4. Was just a dream by then, even with the older technology holding it back, WoW actually had a much faster release schedule bringing more interesting new content.
The thing many people get muddy over is how the launch and first months of WoW have been, and how ... well bad it was initially. But we(i played from launch) stuck around, we kept paying them our money and didnt jump ship(i speak from personal experience when i say we where holding games to a different standard back then). We gave the devs the time and money they needed to make it into the product we have today.
Personally i think given half a year more devtime, and more devs working on features Warhammer could actually have become big. It wasnt conceptually flawed, it was technically flawed in many small places. Take away all the technical problems and class/pop imbalances and i see it clearly on WoW BC level. Biggest error imho i can think of was going with only 2 factions and mirrored classes. It worked for WoW, but WoW never tried to do any sort of openpvp city sieging etc, where the pop imbalances between horde and alliance you have on practically every server could rear its ugly head.
So yeah maybe it was conceptually flawed after all.
Thats also the reason why i dont think the SW MMO will be as successful as many think. Sadly its not just down to how good a game is, human nature comes into it aswell, and many games with good potential got canned due to it(or simply never reached their potential). And thats not even going into external causes, like when a publisher lays of half your team due to financial troubles, do try to make a good game in circumstances like that!
Talking about hamburgers and insulting people you know nothing about does not make you the village elder.
Ad hominem attacks are not the mark of a wise person either.
Being 40 doesn't equal being mature as you have demonstrated by spewing insults everywhere. Not to mention you have no idea what gaming experience others have.
I'm 41, will be 42 in October, and I think you should try to act your age and stop belittling people who happen to disagree with your view of what a perfect world should be.
I've been playing graphical MMORPGs since UO beta and played all mainstream ones and many smaller ones, and text-only MUDs before UO, I was playing tabletop RPGs (DnD, Stormbringer, Cthulhu, etc...) 25+ years ago when I was 12-13 years old, yet I think WoW is a good and fun game. What are ya gonna do now, since you can't call me a kid?
Just my 2 cents.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
1) Even with your claims of what blizzard was aiming for, they still managed to steal half of EQs subscribers and every other mmo that was on the market. I really don't think you understand how broad the design for wow really was and how many types of players it targets.
2) Gee really, wow is sold outside of the US. Thank you for informing me of that, I would have never known if you didn't come along.
Seriously can you ever make a point without stooping to insults as a replacement for discussion?
It doesn't matter what part of the world you want to point to, wow still outsold its competition by millions of players. You can try to derail as much as you like, but it doesn't change the facts.
Calling people who disagree with you "kids" isn't a rebuttal... it's just more childish than those people have ever been. Insulting people has never been a valid argument, only a display of how insecure you are about your own beliefs.
And I think WoW is better than most of those "past games", notably EQ. Basically, WoW, with it's polish, it's quality and quantity of content, beats any past "Class/Level/Endgame" (aka EQ clone) based game. Games like EQ could only work then because they had almost no concurence - UO was something else, a sandbox game. Today, a tedious game like EQ would never work. You can be king of the hill with a crap game when you are the only contender for the title, not when you have a ton of other, better games, on the market. LOTRO also completely crushes EQ, hell, even EQ2 is miles above the tedious crap EQ has been.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Why don't you tell us how WOW will benefit from player housing because I honestly cannot think of a single benefit at all. The WoW developers did not think WoW could benefit from housing, so they did not added any in.
Player housing is just fluff. I agree with the battleground things but it doesn't make sense anymore since its cross server now.
Calling someone a "kid" is insulting since you do not know what each person's age is. There are people older than you that play WoW and if they come here to express their opinion, you just plainly go on insulting your "elders" by calling them kids.
And the fact that you can sit there and write that WoW has not changed at all since it launched 6 years ago only points that you lack the simple powers of observation that most of us were gifted with at birth. Calling people WoW'tards is another way that you fail to observe the simple fact that people should, regardless of age, treat each other with respect. You then go on calling WoW a turd, simply because it does not appeal to you. WoW no longer appeals to me either, but that game is far from being a turd.
What WoW does is that it appeals to most, not to everyone. THAT, my clueless elder, is Blizzard's secret sauce. They make MOST people happy, not EVERYONE. That's what makes WoW the most successful MMOG from a business perspective. Let's not forget the fact that Blizzard is in business to make money. They were able to make computer gaming more attractive to the "non-gamer" whilst providing so called real gamers some meat around a bone. While the meat may not appeal to everyone, it appeals to most players still paying good money to the folks at Blizzard. They have been able to, year after year, attract new players. They probably have the most community supported mods of any other MMOG out there. They have a slew of merchandising, have the most sought out accounts to hack, have the most amount of phishing emails sent out and are generally constantly and invariably defined as the MMOG giant to beat. This is due to great marketing and mass appeal.
That's how WoW has been a success, year after year, and has set a benchmark for future titles to compare themselves with. While I find it sad that WoW's commercial success is often taken as such a benchmark, it makes it that MMOG tittles often try to imitate WoW instead of trying to set itself apart. That's why a lot of title fail...they try too hard; over-hyped and under-delivered.
So, Phelcher, I would kindly ask you, as many before me have I'm sure, that you refrain from insulting people with your useless raging comments and try to post something that actually contributes to the content of this thread. Try to set an example to these young people by setting an example yourself. Stop insulting everyone that likes and enjoys WoW and try to earn some respect. Then again, with a name like Phelcher, you should probably do a little more phelching and less raging; that might make you a little less grumpy.
It is all so easy to see those 7 points I explained earlier why the game was and is a success.
If you don't agree. No problem, but all the wise guys don't seem to grasp these game mechanics.
Instead the wise guys talk about "principles and vague ideas".
The first question they should ask: is my idea contributing to a better individual video game experience ? ...
Here a few examples:
Standing on a boss with 90 people instead of 25 ... how is that more "epic" if the fight isn't attuned ...
Standing over a pixeled land to defend over a week or days ... how is that more "epic" in a video game where you are NOT 24/24 on line ?
How is it more epic to LOG into a game situation where you have absolutely NO control over conquered things except to accept you'll be screwed for the next 10 days and probably (if it is server based) ... screwed for the next 3 months included.
Instead a good game designer has to view at the individual gamer and looks at what makes him log in.
Award the guy - compared to his/her - abilities and create a very smart system of progress (from very easy to very difficult).
That should be the design of your future MMO's. Not some vague ideas with hampered gameplay and lacking responsive moves. The unresponsiveness of MMO avatars in other games is a l a u g h guys !
In fact it should be very EASY to top WOW. But why oh why do I see the same mistakes for 5 full years now.
Perhaps most designers are indeed not very bright or simply lack the resources. Probably a combo of both.
Taking my 7 points I already see the writing on the wall for games like FF14 and SWTOR. Because when I already can pinpoint 2 out of 7 points not present in those games... well it's so obvious.
Why don't their makers see it (like funcom or mythic didn't see it)? I saw it. And I am just an ordinary guy from next door, waiting to see at least SOMETHING. But no ... nothing comes out of it. Pure and simple nothing (to cite the OP)...
Yep, WoW is the most polished one, yep its advertisement are king, not hard to be king with that income,
but no im not playing anymore, i moved on to other games. Beeing most professional / most polished won't keep me entertained forever, even if other games have more flaws, if they have more innovation i will go there. Besides while the game is good, the policies and "features" arround it seem to rot with its age as they get worse and worse.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Looking at the effect housing/guild halls has had on the cities in EQ2 I think no more needs to really be said. It is a great example of something "cool" that has had an overall negative effect on the game.
I am all for real housing in the real world like UO/SWG, but that has an impact on the worlds terrain and was very problematic when dealing with people who leave the game and also when they return. Instanced housing is nice for those who simply must have a house, but it isn't very immersive. At the same time it tends to suck players out of the communal areas and make the game worlds appear deserted.
Using one bad example doesn't make a feature automatically bad all the time.
Housing in LOTRO added a very fun side game while not affecting world and city population at all.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Anyone who believes Everquest was the pinnacle of game design needs to rethink the term. Camping an item for hours on end is not good game design. Requiring your players to devote a substantial amount of time to only be 'average' is not good game design. You know who initially started playing WoW when it launched? It wasn't casuals like it is today. It was EQ vets that were so fed up with the game mechanics of Everquest and the stupid design decisions of SoE. Everquest had become a dinosaur way before 2004. In fact that game has evolved so much that EQ today is not even the same game anymore.
I've been playing MMO's since UO. Played EQ for 4 years (1999 - 2003). Played AC, AO and DAoC too during that time. I'm telling you right now when WoW launched it was such a breath of fresh air to so many players (MMO players) that it's not even funny.
You like the old stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. But the industry (and it's players) have moved on. You would have to pay me (and a ton of other 'ex players) to play EQ circa 1999. You know what happened? We all grew up. We all don't have the time anymore. We don't have as much dedication to a game anymore. That 18 year that started playing EQ when it launched? He's almost 30 now. He's got a family and a job and doesn't have 5-6 hours a night to devote to a game.
Its simple....WOW changed the landscape of the MMO playerbase. Since market share is VERY important to the Game publishing companies that have the dollars needed to have a successful game.....unless you can wrestle away marketshare from WOW, its a no go.
Prior to WOW, MMO gaming was a gaming niche for a more mature audience that had the time to dedicate to a long term progression based game style that had a high focus on a players interactions in the community. It was the relationships that kept you loggin in....the strange phenomina of the late 90s that you could actually play with (or against) another person half way across the country. The game play was very deep, and often times difficult.....playing on the notion that the more challenging something is to get...the higher value you place in it. Community + High Attributed Value to your Assets = Player Retention.
WOW has broken down many of those barriers and put up their own. They've made a MMO game more appealing to more people by reducing the learning curve, making it more graphicly appealing to a larger percentage of the gaming market, and introduced a more casual gaming experience.
WOW is more appealing to console gamers, FPSers and other casual gamer types because of those reasons previously stated. Hence....why you have double digit millions of subs with WOW when EQ topped out at just 1 million a few million years prior.
SO.....unless your new game can wrestle away market share from a MMO market full of casual gamers that previously didn't play MMOs, then forget about the EAs, NCSofts of the world giving you the cash required to compete with the likes of WOW.
Good luck convincing the majority of the WOW playerbase to embrase a game design that doesn't revolve around epic items farmed from monsters, or a game that has death penaltys, FFA PvP, Territory Battles, Sandbox environment...etc.
Yea yea yea....adapt old man or GTFO. I'm just saying....when these casual gamers get board of WOW, they can pick up Call of Duty, Red Dead Redemption, or any one of the other single player titles that suit their play style. Where are the people who like the depth and breath of a challenging fantasy world supposed to go when they've been kicked out of their niche?
There is plenty of stuff out there now to satify that requirement. You just have to know going in that whatever game that is, it's not going to have the population or perhaps all the elements that you would want. Or play some the old school stuff, UO is still around.
Well first thing that comes to my mind is it takes 4-5 years to develop a game. Age of Conan took 5, and yet it failed to meet expectations. (Sure it can take lower, but one look at STO and you know why a GOOD game needs multiple years)
So really based on that time frame, add a year or two to figure out that WoW was a smashing commericial success, and you then have to find someway to take it over. Enter end of 2010-2011 and we will see what comes of WoW.
Can it withstand the new beast on the street and survive with ease, or will it be hammered away quickly?
Very few companies earned respect that Blizzard did years before it released a MMO, only ones that I can think of that comes close would be Bioware and Square Enix, but Blizzard built Battle.net and had millions playing their games online before any other company dared.
I mean look, not even one other company has made a battle.net that was successful. A few tried, they all failed. Blizzard in all purposes is the "token" gaming company(at least before the joining with Activision)
That is all player housing is... You can have a ridiculously shitty game , but throw in some player housing and "oOoOO shiny look what we got , we haz player housing" woopty doo doo Player housing don't mean shit when there aren't any players around to see it anyways.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
If they upgrade UO exactly like it is right now, but with real state of the art 3D graphics and 3D sound like all games have nowadays, I'll be back there without even thinking twice. UO still has awesome gameplay, I just have a hard time getting immersed in that very old technology anymore.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'll give you a 150 million reasons why it's the 900 lb gorilla, and that's a month. They better inovate and be the most polished game. They take in on a monthly basis the same amount as was budgeted to create a new game like SW:ToR. So to answer your question its all about the money. WoW has got a metric shit ton coming in and they actually use some of it to improve and maintain the game.
Yea...cause complete & polished games (in 3D) aren't allowed to be traditional MMOs.
The alternatives:
UO: now resembles a 2D version of WOW more than its former self. Not to mention its latest graphical upgrade makes it 2.5D.
EVE: Space combat sandbox that is void of any and all action that only provides a visual of your ships HUD.
MO: Underfunded, Underdeveloped game with outdated technology due to scarse funds in a First Person ONLY view (See previous comments about AAA publishing companies)
DF: See MO
You can't get the money to complete and polish a game that is competitive without the dollars. You can't get the dollars unless you move the needle on the NEW MMO marketshare. You can't appeal to a substantial portion of the NEW MMO marketshare unless it appeals to casual game play and instant gratification types that play WOW.
End result is Mortal Online & Dark Fall....we all know how that shook out.
Its called "Consumer Generated Content". Pick up a marketing book some time and check it out. People like to play a part in creating their experience....this is a marketing phenomina that applys across most industrys (not just gaming)
Aside from that, player housing fits in a game that focuses on creating a fantasy real life experience and one that focuses on community. WOW focuses on action game play....hence why there is no player housing.