So, if I understand it correctly, Turbine has spent most of the time this year reworking the old content and adjusting towards the F2P model than generating new content, right? And the Mirkwood expansion was also less in content and player appreciation than the Moria one?
I see no need for any squirming about this, I mean, seems perfectly understandable to me that you can't do it all at the same time, and reworking old content and conversion to a F2P model and generating the same amount of new content as former years, and this all with the same resources.
If all goes well, the new Isengard expansion should prove that they've picked up the pace again and their re-focus on providing new content.
As far as expansions of other MMORPG's go:
- EQ had and EQ2 has a steady stream of expansions
- GW provided 3 major expansions in 2-2.5 years before ANet froze development and went to focus on GW2
- EVE Online has an ongoing steady stream of free expansions (or 'content patches' as it's being called)
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So, if I understand it correctly, Turbine has spent most of the time this year reworking the old content and adjusting towards the F2P model than generating new content, right? And the Mirkwood expansion was also less in content and player appreciation than the Moria one?
I see no need for any squirming about this, I mean, seems perfectly understandable to me that you can't do it all at the same time, and reworking old content and conversion to a F2P model and generating the same amount of new content as former years, and this all with the same resources.
If all goes well, the new Isengard expansion should prove that they've picked up the pace again and their re-focus on providing new content.
As far as expansions of other MMORPG's go:
- EQ had and EQ2 has a steady stream of expansions
- GW provided 3 major expansions in 2-2.5 years before ANet froze development and went to focus on GW2
- EVE Online has an ongoing steady stream of free expansions (or 'content patches' as it's being called)
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
Correct. Turbine has decided to play around with the low level areas, change payment models and let those who were at 65 a year ago conitnue to sit at 65. I beleive Turbine has gotten all they care to get from the sub payers and lifers and hope to suck in some folks with the F2P myth. Anyone sitting at 65 that somehow wants to coninue to log in then F2P is the way for them to go considering they will be paying for nothing by remaining a sub payer.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
So, if I understand it correctly, Turbine has spent most of the time this year reworking the old content and adjusting towards the F2P model than generating new content, right? And the Mirkwood expansion was also less in content and player appreciation than the Moria one?
I see no need for any squirming about this, I mean, seems perfectly understandable to me that you can't do it all at the same time, and reworking old content and conversion to a F2P model and generating the same amount of new content as former years, and this all with the same resources.
If all goes well, the new Isengard expansion should prove that they've picked up the pace again and their re-focus on providing new content.
As far as expansions of other MMORPG's go:
- EQ had and EQ2 has a steady stream of expansions
- GW provided 3 major expansions in 2-2.5 years before ANet froze development and went to focus on GW2
- EVE Online has an ongoing steady stream of free expansions (or 'content patches' as it's being called)
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
Well that's my thought.
They couldn't change the game over, change the old content AND create a horde of new content. In the middle of an economic downturn no less.
They needed a viable way of insuring that the game continue and did this so the game can go forward.
now it remains to be seen "what" they will do.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of all that list of yours, only 2 instances qualify as new end game content: BG and SG. The rest all belong to the previous expansions, or are 3-man instances (like if you had that many anyway).
So, if you like lists, here it comes.
Instances released in last payed expansion.
SG
BG
Instances released in updates this year: ZERO.
From someone who obviously has no clue about the new classic skirmish system.
You need to lose the old school WoW, EQII school of thought that each new dungeon makes the old obsolete. LoTRO's system ,akes the old content scalable in most cases and the loot scales along with the mob difficulty. naturally all of these had to be completely reworked and in some case split into multiple parts. Some of those instances in this list can be scaled in mob difficulty and loot reward quality from the 20's all the way through level 65.
Instance
Min Level
Max Level
Group Size
Great Barrow – The Maze
20
65
Fellowship
Great Barrow – Thadúr
22
65
Fellowship
Great Barrow – Sambrog
24
65
Fellowship
Garth Agarwen – Arboretum
32
32
Small Fellowship
Garth Agarwen – Barrows
32
32
Small Fellowship
Garth Agarwen – Fortress
32
32
Fellowship
North-downs – Fornost
39
39
Fellowship
School at Tham Mírdain
50
65
Small Fellowship
Library at Tham Mírdain
50
65
Small Fellowship
Helegrod – Spider Wing
50
65
Raid (12)
Helegrod – Drake Wing
50
65
Raid (12)
Helegrod – Giant Wing
50
65
Raid (12)
Helegrod – Dragon Wing
50
65
Raid (24)
Goblin-town – Throne Room
50
50
Fellowship
Annuminas – Ost Elendil
50
65
Fellowship
Annuminas – Haudh Valandil
50
65
Fellowship
Annuminas – Glinghant
50
65
Fellowship
Angmar – Urugarth
50
50
Fellowship
Angmar – The Rift of Nûrz Gháshu
50
50
Raid (12)
Angmar – Carn Dûm
50
50
Fellowship
Angmar – Barad Gúlaran
50
50
Fellowship
Moria – The Forgotten Treasury
54
54
Fellowship
Moria – The Grand Stair
56
56
Fellowship
Moria – The Forges of Khazad-Dûm
59
59
Fellowship
Moria – Hall of Crafting
59
59
Fellowship
Moria – The Water Wheels
60
60
Small Fellowship
Moria – The Vile Maw
60
60
Raid (12)
Moria – The Sixteenth Hall
60
60
Fellowship
Moria – Mirror-halls of Lumul-Nar
60
60
Small Fellowship
Moria – Skûmfil
60
60
Fellowship
Moria – Fil Gashan
60
60
Fellowship
Moria – Dár Narbugud
60
60
Raid (12)
Moria – Dark Delvings
60
60
Fellowship
Dol Guldur – Warg-pens
65
65
Small Fellowship
Dol Guldur – Sword Halls
65
65
Small Fellowship
Dol Guldur – Sammath Gûl
65
65
Fellowship
Dol Guldur – Dungeons
65
65
Fellowship
Dol Guldur – Barad Guldur
65
65
Raid (12)
I do know, far too well, what the skirmish system is. I did not want to get into discussing them, since there is no way I can consider skirmishes end-game.
obviously you do not since skimishes and classic instances are 2 diffferent things, I would be interseted in what you consider enfd gamne though. Care to list some examples, maybe tell us what game has yopur favorite end game and why ?
But, since you mention them, well, I ll tell you what a skirmish is: A skirmish is the way that devs introduced to recycle old content (yet again) and, with a few minor cosmetic changes and a bunch of randomly generated mobs, put out new pseudo-content with the minimal amount of effort and investment.
if you had bothered to read those articles I linked you would know that all the old stuff had to be completley rerworked and the loot mobs tweaked for the scaling options. Only one I have persoanlly played are the Great Barrows instances, but they are completely revamped. I have done various ones of that series at level 20, 30ish and 65 and trust me they are anything but boring or simple.
Skirmishes are so cheap, so repetitive, so dull, so annoying and so poorly designed that it's actually laughable that you mention them in order to defend the game. Skirmishes are an insult to player's intelligence.
I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Lots of people are loving the classic instances. They just add one more option to what is probably the most complex MMO on the market. Once again if you disagree with my stetement pleas elaborate on what game has a better end game instead of simply attacking LoTRO.
And again... this list of yours is artificially big by repeating content that has been split in many different parts (same amount of content since nothing has been added to them), and 90% of its content is more than a year old. The fact is that Lotro is releasing end-game content at an astonishing slow pace, regardless your excuses to justify that and regardless your fancy lists. Simple as.
The only game that would have 100% new content this would be one that has released this year correct? Considering the size and scope of LoTRO 10% added per year is a pretty hefty chunk. Once again which MMO is it that you think sets the standard for adding new content, give us a example of what Turbine should be striving for.
Considering the older instances being revamped and reworked as to be always fresh and sources of good loot is a huge addition in and of itself , more than some MMO's did with their paid expansions this year . Even if the new areas had not been added that in itself is worth checking out..
10% content addition to the low and mid levels amounts to nothing.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
Lets see so far in 3 years LoTRO has had 2 paid expansions, introduced 4 new areas in free patches ( Evendim, Forochel, Lothlorien and Enedwaithe) , introduced a housing system, developed the skirmish system and classic instances, introduced the wardrobe system, added so many new book quest arcs in their regular patches I could not even begin to list them.
Of the example you listed did not SOE charge for all of EQ1 and EQII's expansions and content additions ?
I don't know much about GW, not even sure if it belongs in the discussion. Were it's expansions paid or free? I am still not even sure I would classify GW a MMORPG, at least not in the sense that I would EQ, EQII, LoTRO, WoW etc
On Eve, I would have to classify most of their expansions as equitable to loTRO's book expansions. Maybe 4 of their expansions were really major.Exodus, Bloodlines, and Trinity. The rest were prettty minor additions.
10% content addition to the low and mid levels amounts to nothing.
you classify lvl 65 instances low to mid level, you are really amusing me. BTW why do you keep avoiding answering which MMO has the best endgame and why. Even a 14 year old knows that in a discussion, one should offer examples of what they base their opinons on ?
Or is your concept of debate and discussion just repeating 'LoTRO suxxors" over and over with nothing to back it up except your personal opinion. This is sio amusing
10% content addition to the low and mid levels amounts to nothing.
you classify lvl 65 instances low to mid level, you are really amusing me. BTW why do you keep avoiding answering which MMO has the best endgame and why. Even a 14 year old knows that in a discussion, one should offer expamples of what they base their opinon on ?
Or are you just trolling?
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
and if I am not mistaken both those games have been out =since 2004 and all of their expansions cost money.
Exactly how many free quest arcs and free areas each has added ?
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
and once again you just keep repeating LoTRO suxxors , with no examples of which game you thing does a good job.. you are beggin ing to bore me
Do you even read or just continue to spit out turbine propaganda? I posted that EQ2 and WOW both do a better job than turbine but considering what turbine gives its players that isnt much of a chore.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
and once again you just keep repeating LoTRO suxxors , with no examples of which game you thing does a good job.. you are beggin ing to bore me
Do you even read or just continue to spit out turbine propaganda? I posted that EQ2 and WOW both do a better job than turbine but considering what turbine gives its players that isnt much of a chore.
No you just listed 2 games that have had paid for exapnsions and been out twice as long, I would say year for year Turbine has beat both those games and a large part was free. Turbine added at least 4 large land areas at no charge at all since release.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
How much money turbine may make with this doesnt change the fact that endgame is pretty much been stalled for the last year. Ive stated before the F2P move was really a favor to me for without it I may well have been continueing to pay and wait on content that hasnt come.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
and once again you just keep repeating LoTRO suxxors , with no examples of which game you thing does a good job.. you are beggin ing to bore me
Do you even read or just continue to spit out turbine propaganda? I posted that EQ2 and WOW both do a better job than turbine but considering what turbine gives its players that isnt much of a chore.
No you just listed 2 games that have had paid for exapnsions and been out twice as long, I would say year for year Turbine has beat both those games and a large part was free.
After three years WOW had a stranglehold on the MMO industry that it maintains today. After three years LOTRO has gone F2P. You tell me who knows how to develop content.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Jack, adressing your green remarks, one by one. I wont quote, since it would be an horrendous wall of text.
1) As a former Lotro player, raid leader in my guild and, according to many players in my server, one of the best minstrels in server, trust me, I DO know what a skirmish is. Completed them all in all sizes and all difficulty settings. I doubt you can say the same. End-game means challenge and progression in my book. Skirmishes provide none of them to me. The hardest skirmish in the biggest team size and highest difficulty setting is easier than first boss in BG. BG is end-game, skirmishes are not. EQ2, pre-pota Vanguard or WoW can provide you an example of richest end-game.
2) It is clear that you did not read my post properly. I was describing skirmishes, not recycled instances. Are you sure it is me who does not know what a skirmish is?
3) Please, explain me how is lotro a complex game when there is hardly no character customization, no multiclassing, crafting is just about pressing one button and beeing lucky, all the gear has more or less the same stats and 90% of the content at lvl 65 is made up by mega-easy solo quests. And if you check the Lotro forums, you ll realize that my opinion about skirmishes is shared by most of the players. The amount of hate on the forums when the skirmishes came out and ppl started playing them was only beaten by the hate towards radiance and the LI grind.
4) Size and scope of what? Pardon? Go play Vanguard and get into APW. 34 raid bosses in a single dungeon. That is more than all the raid content Lotro has in the whole game at all levels, revamped or not. You said it, thanks, most of what they have done is just revamping and recycling old content. The amount of new content is ridiculously low. Most of my guildies completed all the Mirkwood content , when the PAYED expansion came out, in a weekend. Actually, Mirkwood is, by far, the smallest payed expansion I have ever seen in any MMO, and I dare you to show me a smaller one. When the free update came out, after months and months of nothing, most players completed it in a couple of hours.
Sumarizing, revamped and recycled does not mean new. Easy small-group content and solo quests ala skirmish is not, according to the common conception of what end-game is, end-game. In conclusion, Lotro has very little new end-game content. And if you think that this is going to change with the new F2P model, I am afraid you got it really wrong, but time will tell.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
How much money turbine may make with this doesnt change the fact that endgame is pretty much been stalled for the last year. Ive stated before the F2P move was really a favor to me for without it I may well have been continueing to pay and wait on content that hasnt come.
since last December Mirkwood, the classic instance system, and Enedwaith. What exactly has your ideal MMO added since then ?
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
How much money turbine may make with this doesnt change the fact that endgame is pretty much been stalled for the last year. Ive stated before the F2P move was really a favor to me for without it I may well have been continueing to pay and wait on content that hasnt come.
since last December Mirkwood, the classic instance system, and Enedwaith. What exactly has your ideal MMO added since then ?
So you got low to mid level redone content with one area as an alternative to Mirkwood. Cool, now you can level your alts in a different area.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
Lets see so far in 3 years LoTRO has had 2 paid expansions, introduced 4 new areas in free patches ( Evendim, Forochel, Lothlorien and Enedwaithe) , introduced a housing system, developed the skirmish system and classic instances, introduced the wardrobe system, added so many new book quest arcs in their regular patches I could not even begin to list them.
Of the example you listed did not SOE charge for all of EQ1 and EQII's expansions and content additions ?
I don't know much about GW, not even sure if it belongs in the discussion. Were it's expansions paid or free? I am still not even sure I would classify GW a MMORPG, at least not in the sense that I would EQ, EQII, LoTRO, WoW etc
On Eve, I would have to classify most of their expansions as equitable to loTRO's book expansions. Maybe 4 of their expansions were really major.Exodus, Bloodlines, and Trinity. The rest were prettty minor additions.
I wasn't aware this was a contest between people's MMORPG's, else I would have formulated things differently. I merely mentioned MMORPG's that provided a steady stream of expansions.
But anyway:
- EQ and EQ2: yes, those are all paid expansions, I didn't bother with all the updates and patches in between, I thought we were talking about the large new content updates, which an expansion basically is.
- GW: yeah, GW is tagged as a CORPG by the makers, just as DDO is a CORPG, and both are listed here on mmorpg.com. So what? It doesn't diminish anything about the fact that they created 3 expansions that were all as large in size as the original game was, that's more content than the standard MMORPG manages to cough up.
- EVE: now those content updates, I'd say they are larger than MMORPG patches/updates or LotrO's book expansions, some of them are smaller, others are as sizeable as any other MMORPG expansion, in contrast to the expansion in other MMO's though they are all free.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
4) Size and scope of what? Pardon? Go play Vanguard and get into APW. 34 raid bosses in a single dungeon. That is more than all the raid content Lotro has in the whole game at all levels, revamped or not. You said it, thanks, most of what they have done is just revamping and recycling old content. The amount of new content is ridiculously low. Most of my guildies completed all the Mirkwood content , when the PAYED expansion came out, in a weekend. Actually, Mirkwood is, by far, the smallest payed expansion I have ever seen in any MMO, and I dare you to show me a smaller one. When the free update came out, after months and months of nothing, most players completed it in a couple of hours.
Sumarizing, revamped and recycled does not mean new. Easy small-group content and solo quests ala skirmish is not, according to the common conception of what end-game is, end-game. In conclusion, Lotro has very little new end-game content. And if you think that this is going to change with the new F2P model, I am afraid you got it really wrong, but time will tell.
Do you know that Raiding players represents only a small minority in LOTRO, right? LOTRO have never been a Raid focused gaming, even when SOA was out, compared to other games such as WoW.
That's what people fail to see. However, the new expac has provided some revamp of classic instances (in the case of Great Barrow, it is more than a revamp) which were due.
Indeed, we are all awaiting eagerly for the new expac, which should definitely bring more to endgaming, but I understand the fact that in the last year, Turbine focused on implementing the F2P system (which by the way is nothing but success judging by how many people I see around in all regions). Of course, now we do expect a big expac for Winter and I trust Turbine will deliver one.
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
I'm convinced it is: next to that, they were losing subs month after month, so something had to be done to change the path.
In my opinion, the move to a F2P hybrid model (it's not pure F2P) is the best thing they could have done. It'll make LotrO able to compete with better chances than before, with the storm of new MMORPG's and WoW's CATA that will make their appearance in the MMO market the upcoming year.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I wasn't aware this was a contest between people's MMORPG's, else I would have formulated things differently. I merely mentioned MMORPG's that provided a steady stream of expansions.
It's not but as I pointed out LoTRO has had 2 piad expansions and continually added free content on a regular basis as recently as this month in the 40 months or so since it's release. I would not call completly revamping all of it major dungeons into easily accessable and scaling content a small feat and you have Mirkwood and Enedwaithe as far as open area land additions.
But anyway:
- EQ and EQ2: yes, those are all paid expansions, I didn't bother with all the updates and patches in between, I thought we were talking about the large new content updates, which an expansion basically is.
SOE is SOE sigh...they took more of my money than I want to admit.
- GW: yeah, GW is tagged as a CORPG by the makers, just as DDO is a CORPG, and both are listed here on mmorpg.com. So what? It doesn't diminish anything about the fact that they created 3 expansions that were all as large in size as the original game was, that's more content than the standard MMORPG manages to cough up.
Never played GW so I won't even comment on it other than it seems to be a aples to oranges comparison
- EVE: now those content updates, I'd say they are larger than MMORPG patches/updates or LotrO's book expansions, some of them are smaller, others are as sizeable as any other MMORPG expansion, in contrast to the expansion in other MMO's though they are all free.
Eves good but once again, designing a new ship or adding another solar system in it is a lot easier than adding a new landmass and quest arc in LoTRO. Now if they had added walkning around on planets or something , I would call that a expansion to be proud of but as of the last time I played it, you still could not even leave your ship in a station. EvE is Eve, not any real comaparison to LoTRO in any way.
The only real competiion LoTRO has right now is WoW and Aion, and LoTRO will never break their hold on the Asian market and Blizzard make money hats so they will always outdo LoTO on expansions, that I won't argue.
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
I'm convinced it is: next to that, they were losing subs month after month, so something had to be done to change the path.
Most MMOs lose subs from month to month till they reach the diehard level, that is just the nature of the genre. Lotro was still in the high 20's on XFire, same as it was for 8 or 9 months. But yes FTP changed the whole ballgame and has attracted new customers. That is what I thought compaies are supposed to do.
In my opinion, the move to a F2P hybrid model (it's not pure F2P) is the best thing they could have done. It'll make LotrO able to compete with better chances than before, with the storm of new MMORPG's and WoW's CATA that will make their appearance in the MMO market the upcoming year.
Nothing will ever touch WoW, teh only thing that will ever kill WoW is WoW itself , and the last couple of years storms of new MMO's other than Aion proved to be minor rain showers.
AoC. WArhammer, Champions, STO......I probably missefd a few but all those were decisive duds
So you did not provide any example of a smaller payed expansion in any MMO. I have asked exactly that in may different forums, and nobody has ever been able to answer. I honestly think that Mirkwood is, most probably, the smallest payed expansion in the history of MMOs.
You mention that Lotro is not a raid-centric game. And I agree. However, I thought we were talking about end-game. Let me check the thread title again... aha! Yeah, it says exactly that, end-game. Ok, now, if raids are not end-game in a PVE-centric theme-park with a very simplistic crafting system, like Lotro... what the hell is end-game in a game like that then?
Anyway, so let's ignore raids, and talk about smaller instances. Going back to the examples I have used:
WoW: You can level all the way from 10 to 80 doing instances and only instances and nothing more than instances. Can you do that in Lotro?
Vanguard: The amount of dungeons is so insane that players ended up asking for a togle to NOT get experience becouse they were outleveling most of them by playing normally and they were missing content on level. Do you need that in Lotro?
And, by the way, both games have a world that is bigger than Lotro.
Why do you think the radiance gating and the LI grind were introduced? Do you think they actually add any fun to the game? Maybe they are just clumsy attempts to mask lack of content? Do you honestly think they serve any purpose other than beeing a time sink?
Nothing will ever touch WoW, teh only thing that will ever kill WoW is WoW itself , and the last couple of years storms of new MMO's other than Aion proved to be minor rain showers.
AoC. WArhammer, Champions, STO......I probably missefd a few but all those were decisive duds
I agree, WoW is a whole other discussion when comparing with the new MMO's: but with WoW's expansion CATA upcoming and new MMORPG's as SW:TOR, GW2 and Rift, any current MMO will face a hard time competing with them over a longer period than just 1-2 months per each of these.
(edit: I see this discussion went beyond the OP topic, my bad)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree, WoW is a whole other discussion when comparing with the new MMO's: but with WoW's expansion CATA upcoming
WoW will affect current and former WoW players and not many others. Blizzard could make it F2P and I doubt I would botehr playing it, not just my cup of tea, just as LoTRO is not for others. We all find the game we feeel comfortable in and stay there till something better comes along. I played WoW at it's release for 2 weeks and the graphics and community were just not to my taste and I went back to EQII until I switched to LoTRO.
and new MMORPG's as SW:TOR,
I don't have a lot of hope left for SW:TOR, a year ago I felt much differently. Now I am in a wait and see mode.
GW2
a definite possibility, the website is encouraging at least
and Rift,
never even heard of it til this post, checked it's site and it is still not even in beta. Old saying from a wise old dog, a good MMO on the hard drive is worth 3 in development
any current MMO will face a hard time competing with them over a longer period than just 1-2 months per each of these.
all games look good until release. I quit even applying for betas after AoC. Now I just wait for release and see what the community is saying a month after launch because I got tired of following games for years to see them either not make it through beta or turn out to be huge steaming heaps if they managed to launch.
LoTRO was in mid 20's on XFire before it went F2P close to exactly where it has remained since a few months after MoM, it's highest ever before that had been the February after MoM when it had a XFire contest and reached #14. After that it dropped down to a couple of places below EvE.
(edit: I see this discussion went beyond the OP topic, my bad)
as do most discussions on these forums, it was derailed long befiore you arrived on scene, But the bottom line is this I played maxxed out in UO a month after it's launch and still played it till DAoC launched and I played that till SWG launched and played that till EQII launched and that till LoTRO. Content is what you make of it, whether you enjoy the game and the community or you don't and you make that decision long before max level is reached. End game has nothing to do with it, it's all about the journey not the destination.
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
How much money turbine may make with this doesnt change the fact that endgame is pretty much been stalled for the last year. Ive stated before the F2P move was really a favor to me for without it I may well have been continueing to pay and wait on content that hasnt come.
But "end game" for LOTRO has never been this huge robust thing. At least from my experience, though I'm not a raider.
Heck, I cancelled my account for a few months prior to moria because there was nothing that really interested me.
I don't believe the end game of shadows of angmar was any more robust than what we have now.
What it comes down to in my estimation is that there is no such thing as "end game" and it's more about players either finding something to do once they have gone through available content (essentially enjoying things they thing can be repeated) or taking a break before the next round of content comes around.
I suppose that brings us around for the original discussion on end game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
So, if I understand it correctly, Turbine has spent most of the time this year reworking the old content and adjusting towards the F2P model than generating new content, right? And the Mirkwood expansion was also less in content and player appreciation than the Moria one?
I see no need for any squirming about this, I mean, seems perfectly understandable to me that you can't do it all at the same time, and reworking old content and conversion to a F2P model and generating the same amount of new content as former years, and this all with the same resources.
If all goes well, the new Isengard expansion should prove that they've picked up the pace again and their re-focus on providing new content.
As far as expansions of other MMORPG's go:
- EQ had and EQ2 has a steady stream of expansions
- GW provided 3 major expansions in 2-2.5 years before ANet froze development and went to focus on GW2
- EVE Online has an ongoing steady stream of free expansions (or 'content patches' as it's being called)
Maybe there are more who are as steady and abundant in their expansions, but these were the ones that came to mind immediately.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Correct. Turbine has decided to play around with the low level areas, change payment models and let those who were at 65 a year ago conitnue to sit at 65. I beleive Turbine has gotten all they care to get from the sub payers and lifers and hope to suck in some folks with the F2P myth. Anyone sitting at 65 that somehow wants to coninue to log in then F2P is the way for them to go considering they will be paying for nothing by remaining a sub payer.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Well that's my thought.
They couldn't change the game over, change the old content AND create a horde of new content. In the middle of an economic downturn no less.
They needed a viable way of insuring that the game continue and did this so the game can go forward.
now it remains to be seen "what" they will do.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
10% content addition to the low and mid levels amounts to nothing.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Lets see so far in 3 years LoTRO has had 2 paid expansions, introduced 4 new areas in free patches ( Evendim, Forochel, Lothlorien and Enedwaithe) , introduced a housing system, developed the skirmish system and classic instances, introduced the wardrobe system, added so many new book quest arcs in their regular patches I could not even begin to list them.
Of the example you listed did not SOE charge for all of EQ1 and EQII's expansions and content additions ?
I don't know much about GW, not even sure if it belongs in the discussion. Were it's expansions paid or free? I am still not even sure I would classify GW a MMORPG, at least not in the sense that I would EQ, EQII, LoTRO, WoW etc
On Eve, I would have to classify most of their expansions as equitable to loTRO's book expansions. Maybe 4 of their expansions were really major.Exodus, Bloodlines, and Trinity. The rest were prettty minor additions.
I miss DAoC
I miss DAoC
Endgame is always a problem for devs to keep up with. Though some try while Turbine simply lets the game stagnate to a point that it has to go F2P to keep from shutting down the servers. EQ2 has numerous xpacs that add to endgame, WOW while not fast my any means does add content on a regular basis. So your remedy is just keep rollig alts until turbine decideds to give the capped players something? Isnt that something even a 14 year old would find boring after awhile?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I miss DAoC
Do you even read or just continue to spit out turbine propaganda? I posted that EQ2 and WOW both do a better job than turbine but considering what turbine gives its players that isnt much of a chore.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I'll agree that Turbine had times where the high level players did not have new content but their move to f2p is more about making more money then shutting down servers.
Especially because they are now owned by a publically traded company.
I have no doubt that the success of DDO and the acquistion by Warner Brothers played a hand in the recent f2p move.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I miss DAoC
How much money turbine may make with this doesnt change the fact that endgame is pretty much been stalled for the last year. Ive stated before the F2P move was really a favor to me for without it I may well have been continueing to pay and wait on content that hasnt come.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
After three years WOW had a stranglehold on the MMO industry that it maintains today. After three years LOTRO has gone F2P. You tell me who knows how to develop content.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Jack, adressing your green remarks, one by one. I wont quote, since it would be an horrendous wall of text.
1) As a former Lotro player, raid leader in my guild and, according to many players in my server, one of the best minstrels in server, trust me, I DO know what a skirmish is. Completed them all in all sizes and all difficulty settings. I doubt you can say the same. End-game means challenge and progression in my book. Skirmishes provide none of them to me. The hardest skirmish in the biggest team size and highest difficulty setting is easier than first boss in BG. BG is end-game, skirmishes are not. EQ2, pre-pota Vanguard or WoW can provide you an example of richest end-game.
2) It is clear that you did not read my post properly. I was describing skirmishes, not recycled instances. Are you sure it is me who does not know what a skirmish is?
3) Please, explain me how is lotro a complex game when there is hardly no character customization, no multiclassing, crafting is just about pressing one button and beeing lucky, all the gear has more or less the same stats and 90% of the content at lvl 65 is made up by mega-easy solo quests. And if you check the Lotro forums, you ll realize that my opinion about skirmishes is shared by most of the players. The amount of hate on the forums when the skirmishes came out and ppl started playing them was only beaten by the hate towards radiance and the LI grind.
4) Size and scope of what? Pardon? Go play Vanguard and get into APW. 34 raid bosses in a single dungeon. That is more than all the raid content Lotro has in the whole game at all levels, revamped or not. You said it, thanks, most of what they have done is just revamping and recycling old content. The amount of new content is ridiculously low. Most of my guildies completed all the Mirkwood content , when the PAYED expansion came out, in a weekend. Actually, Mirkwood is, by far, the smallest payed expansion I have ever seen in any MMO, and I dare you to show me a smaller one. When the free update came out, after months and months of nothing, most players completed it in a couple of hours.
Sumarizing, revamped and recycled does not mean new. Easy small-group content and solo quests ala skirmish is not, according to the common conception of what end-game is, end-game. In conclusion, Lotro has very little new end-game content. And if you think that this is going to change with the new F2P model, I am afraid you got it really wrong, but time will tell.
I miss DAoC
So you got low to mid level redone content with one area as an alternative to Mirkwood. Cool, now you can level your alts in a different area.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I wasn't aware this was a contest between people's MMORPG's, else I would have formulated things differently. I merely mentioned MMORPG's that provided a steady stream of expansions.
But anyway:
- EQ and EQ2: yes, those are all paid expansions, I didn't bother with all the updates and patches in between, I thought we were talking about the large new content updates, which an expansion basically is.
- GW: yeah, GW is tagged as a CORPG by the makers, just as DDO is a CORPG, and both are listed here on mmorpg.com. So what? It doesn't diminish anything about the fact that they created 3 expansions that were all as large in size as the original game was, that's more content than the standard MMORPG manages to cough up.
- EVE: now those content updates, I'd say they are larger than MMORPG patches/updates or LotrO's book expansions, some of them are smaller, others are as sizeable as any other MMORPG expansion, in contrast to the expansion in other MMO's though they are all free.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do you know that Raiding players represents only a small minority in LOTRO, right? LOTRO have never been a Raid focused gaming, even when SOA was out, compared to other games such as WoW.
That's what people fail to see. However, the new expac has provided some revamp of classic instances (in the case of Great Barrow, it is more than a revamp) which were due.
Indeed, we are all awaiting eagerly for the new expac, which should definitely bring more to endgaming, but I understand the fact that in the last year, Turbine focused on implementing the F2P system (which by the way is nothing but success judging by how many people I see around in all regions). Of course, now we do expect a big expac for Winter and I trust Turbine will deliver one.
I'm convinced it is: next to that, they were losing subs month after month, so something had to be done to change the path.
In my opinion, the move to a F2P hybrid model (it's not pure F2P) is the best thing they could have done. It'll make LotrO able to compete with better chances than before, with the storm of new MMORPG's and WoW's CATA that will make their appearance in the MMO market the upcoming year.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I miss DAoC
I miss DAoC
Thanks Jack.
So you did not provide any example of a smaller payed expansion in any MMO. I have asked exactly that in may different forums, and nobody has ever been able to answer. I honestly think that Mirkwood is, most probably, the smallest payed expansion in the history of MMOs.
You mention that Lotro is not a raid-centric game. And I agree. However, I thought we were talking about end-game. Let me check the thread title again... aha! Yeah, it says exactly that, end-game. Ok, now, if raids are not end-game in a PVE-centric theme-park with a very simplistic crafting system, like Lotro... what the hell is end-game in a game like that then?
Anyway, so let's ignore raids, and talk about smaller instances. Going back to the examples I have used:
WoW: You can level all the way from 10 to 80 doing instances and only instances and nothing more than instances. Can you do that in Lotro?
Vanguard: The amount of dungeons is so insane that players ended up asking for a togle to NOT get experience becouse they were outleveling most of them by playing normally and they were missing content on level. Do you need that in Lotro?
And, by the way, both games have a world that is bigger than Lotro.
Why do you think the radiance gating and the LI grind were introduced? Do you think they actually add any fun to the game? Maybe they are just clumsy attempts to mask lack of content? Do you honestly think they serve any purpose other than beeing a time sink?
I agree, WoW is a whole other discussion when comparing with the new MMO's: but with WoW's expansion CATA upcoming and new MMORPG's as SW:TOR, GW2 and Rift, any current MMO will face a hard time competing with them over a longer period than just 1-2 months per each of these.
(edit: I see this discussion went beyond the OP topic, my bad)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I miss DAoC
But "end game" for LOTRO has never been this huge robust thing. At least from my experience, though I'm not a raider.
Heck, I cancelled my account for a few months prior to moria because there was nothing that really interested me.
I don't believe the end game of shadows of angmar was any more robust than what we have now.
What it comes down to in my estimation is that there is no such thing as "end game" and it's more about players either finding something to do once they have gone through available content (essentially enjoying things they thing can be repeated) or taking a break before the next round of content comes around.
I suppose that brings us around for the original discussion on end game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo