There are similarities between sci fi and fantasy, but i agree with OP, rather than fleshing out the possibilities of sci fi, like wireless contact for quests, we are still stuck with exclamation marks.
As somebody else pointed out, Sci-Fi is just a subgenre of Fantasy.
That's what happens when you name your genre and sub-genre the same thing. There's a difference between "fantasy", the set of all things not based on demonstrable reality, and "fantasy", a sub-genre of swords and sorcery. You can't just switch between the two at a whim, saying that everything is fantasy when it's clear the OP was talking about the sub-genre.
Besides, Speculative Fiction -> Fantasy -> Sci-Fi... I have not heard somebody use the term "Fantasy" to cover all speculative fiction.
Uh, fiction IS fantasy.
That is incorrect. Fantasy is a type of fiction. It is a form of speculative fiction. While the word fantasy may have different meanings when discussing different things, when you are discussing literature - the other definitions need not apply.
A person can have a fantasy about the neighbor's wife. Were they to write that story in a modern setting, it would be contemporary fiction and not fantasy fiction.
It is a case of properly using terms, and aside from it perhaps helping some understand why what people have said in this thread - it is not really something that should be discussed beyond the brief (somewhat brief) amount that it has been.
If you want more information on the various terms, there are many sources available for them - the internet, the library, a bookstore, or perhaps even checking with the English department at a local university where either a lit professor or creative writing professor would be able to offer additional resources...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There are similarities between sci fi and fantasy, but i agree with OP, rather than fleshing out the possibilities of sci fi, like wireless contact for quests, we are still stuck with exclamation marks.
Anarchy Online and a few other games have mission terminals.
City of Heroes/Villains offers a hybrid system of contact. Once the contact knows you well enough, they provide you with their number so you can call them so you no longer have to make the trip. You also have options such as reading the newspaper and listening to the police band.
One could see games offering the players to check forums, bulletin boards, e-mail, social networking sites, and all the rest inside of a game as they carry out their missions.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There are similarities between sci fi and fantasy, but i agree with OP, rather than fleshing out the possibilities of sci fi, like wireless contact for quests, we are still stuck with exclamation marks.
Its already been done, its called city of heroes, and its really nothing that spectacular.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Vehicles are available in Anarchy Online. It would be interesting to see how they would be handled in a more standard sci-fi game or even a modern game...the simple logistics, parking, fuel, traffic, making payments, and all the rest there.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fantasy and Science Fiction are similiar genres, but neither is a subset of the other. Science fiction posits something like the nature of the world as we know it, but with changes. And it explores the effect such changes have on the way things work. A simple change could have tremendous effects. Say someone discovers a cheap way to extend human life for up to 500 years: What effect does it have on the world? Of course most writers do this by following a major character, and writing a decent story around them.
Fantasy delves more into world building that does not need to follow the same rules as the present world. Hence figures from myth and legend, or elves or magic, etc.
Everything that has a robot is not Science Fiction (SF) (despite the cluelessness fo the SciFI (syfy- iffy) chanel). Thus Star Wars is not SF: It is Space Opera. Like many others, it uses the trappings of SF, but dispenses with any need to fit things to the natural enviornment. That's the reason that space fighters fly like WWI biplanes when fighting in space, where there is no gravity, friction or atmosphere to make them behave that way. Space Opera is a subgenre. There are lots of others, and also gradiations between them.
For the OP, sounds like you are out of luck. There are a few SF (or even SF trappinged) MMOs out there, but the fantasy versions are thought to sell better. Some of the things that you want are just difficult to do. Consider the difficulties of rendering a mile for those long range shots. Etc. There are technical limitations that make some of those ideas hard to do. Others are just a failure of imagination.
Maybe World of Tanks?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
In a way, they already have. AO is quite old, now, but it was successful with its Sci-Fi setting. Same could be said for Ryzom just no one really plays it. If they fixed the UI I would be back in a giffy; just not a fan of the UI. And let us not forget about the pure win of Hello Kitty Online's amazing Sci-Fi setting
As much as I liked and played AO for many years, it's not really that much of a sci-fi game, it's a fantasy game set in a sci-fi universe. Their nano system is just another name for casting spells. Lots of people are out swinging swords around, whacking monsters. Far too many pseudo-sci-fi games do the exact same things. Instead of calling them elves and hobbits, they call them aliens. Same stuff, different veneer.
That then just leaves you with how many different variations of human or robot mobs to kill and storyline which as you can see in Global Agenda the content is scarce in the open zone and how many times can you kill robot x and y til it gets old?
It would be nice tho if someone made a Deus Ex game in the same way that Guild Wars was(not the setting theme)but have personal maps where you could do the storyline of the rpg either alone or with friends and have hubs like a town where you could run into other players and such.
For clarity's sake, I am not lamenting the aesthetics; I am lamenting the mechanics. And I'm referring to MMO genres when I say "fantasy", not the stupidly broad literary or literal definition of "fantasy" (that being simply "...that which is imagined").
MMOs are derived from the hack and slash MUDs which came before them. The first two great MMO examples being EQ and UO. Unfortunately, rather than approaching the concept of an MMO from a fresh science fiction perspective developers instead derive their mechanics from MMO predecessors which are predominately fantasy.
Does that make sense?
You could take any ground-based sci-fi MMO on the market today and convert it into pure fantasy by simply changing some meshes and textures. Why is that?
Because travel methods are still medieval, if they exist at all, sans the omnipresent generic teleportation act.
Because melee is still included in every sci-fi MMO and it inexplicably dominates ranged weapons.
Because ranged weapons usually only work in melee or close-to-melee ranges anyways.
Because staple fantasy creatures are regurgitated into the universes at any cost.
Because even with all of the tech in the world developers still feel the need to shoe-horn straight up magic into their game.
And that's just off the top of my head.
My point is that from MUDs we derived the first MMOs. From the first MMOs we derived everything which came forth since. The problem here, for us science fiction types, is that nowhere in this evolution were derivations rooted in anything but fantasy settings.
This is why science fiction MMOs suck and why developers should be ashamed of themselves for labeling sci-fi MMOs "sci-fi" at all.
Fantasy and Science Fiction are similiar genres, but neither is a subset of the other. Science fiction posits something like the nature of the world as we know it, but with changes. And it explores the effect such changes have on the way things work. A simple change could have tremendous effects. Say someone discovers a cheap way to extend human life for up to 500 years: What effect does it have on the world? Of course most writers do this by following a major character, and writing a decent story around them.
Fantasy delves more into world building that does not need to follow the same rules as the present world. Hence figures from myth and legend, or elves or magic, etc.
Everything that has a robot is not Science Fiction (SF) (despite the cluelessness fo the SciFI (syfy- iffy) chanel). Thus Star Wars is not SF: It is Space Opera. Like many others, it uses the trappings of SF, but dispenses with any need to fit things to the natural enviornment. That's the reason that space fighters fly like WWI biplanes when fighting in space, where there is no gravity, friction or atmosphere to make them behave that way. Space Opera is a subgenre. There are lots of others, and also gradiations between them.
For the OP, sounds like you are out of luck. There are a few SF (or even SF trappinged) MMOs out there, but the fantasy versions are thought to sell better. Some of the things that you want are just difficult to do. Consider the difficulties of rendering a mile for those long range shots. Etc. There are technical limitations that make some of those ideas hard to do. Others are just a failure of imagination.
Maybe World of Tanks?
Science fiction is a sub-genre of fantasy. In sci fi it is simply the method of divergence from reality which is different (technological change as opposed to magic). No sci-fi follows the rules of nature as we know them, otherwise they wouldn't be sci-fi. All the big sci-fi names are fantasy writers - Asimovs positronic brain = fantasy, Clarkes weird mind bending stuff = fantasy, Herberts crazy psychic powered spacefolding = fantasy.
You are simply confusing the whole of fantasy with the high fantasy sub genre. There are pure fantasy worlds out there which are more realistic than any hard sci-fi (other than the fact they are a different world ofc).
You also don't understand the concept of space-opera. Pure sci-fi can be space opera just as easily as the mumbo-jumbo of star wars can. Space opera is a story style and has nothing to do with the relative realism of its setting. Space opera is a subgenre of sci-fi in the same way sci-fi is a sub genre of fantasy, which is itself a sub-genre of speculative fiction (along with all the alternate history and what-if stuff).
For clarity's sake, I am not lamenting the aesthetics; I am lamenting the mechanics. And I'm referring to MMO genres when I say "fantasy", not the stupidly broad literary or literal definition of "fantasy" (that being simply "...that which is imagined").
MMOs are derived from the hack and slash MUDs which came before them. The first two great MMO examples being EQ and UO. Unfortunately, rather than approaching the concept of an MMO from a fresh science fiction perspective developers instead derive their mechanics from MMO predecessors which are predominately fantasy.
Does that make sense?
You could take any ground-based sci-fi MMO on the market today and convert it into pure fantasy by simply changing some meshes and textures. Why is that?
Because travel methods are still medieval, if they exist at all, sans the omnipresent generic teleportation act.
Because melee is still included in every sci-fi MMO and it inexplicably dominates ranged weapons.
Because ranged weapons usually only work in melee or close-to-melee ranges anyways.
Because staple fantasy creatures are regurgitated into the universes at any cost.
Because even with all of the tech in the world developers still feel the need to shoe-horn straight up magic into their game.
And that's just off the top of my head.
My point is that from MUDs we derived the first MMOs. From the first MMOs we derived everything which came forth since. The problem here, for us science fiction types, is that nowhere in this evolution were derivations rooted in anything but fantasy settings.
This is why science fiction MMOs suck and why developers should be ashamed of themselves for labeling sci-fi MMOs "sci-fi" at all.
I'd say judging on your two posts, Fallen Earth would be the closest thing out there in terms of non-fantasy gaming.
There are various vehicles to travel in and fight from including horses, atv's, dune buggys, motorcycles and sports cars.
Melee is included, and in many ways is somewhat OP'd, but the best builds for PVP are still considered to be dual weilding pistol builds, myself I prefer rifles.
As far as ranged combat, did you ever really fight with ranged weapons. If its a handgun you really only have short ranges as being realistic, you might fight with a rifle at 50M's, but a not so much with the average handgun. But the good news is, FE does have sniping ranges up to 70M (that I've used) and you can do quite a bit of damage at that range with a cross bow or sniper rifle. For up close work you switch to the shotgun, which has a much larger targeting reticule. It's not perfect of course, but its not bad compared to the rest of the market.
There are absolutely no elves, orcs or goblins anywhere in the game. All of the npc mobs appear to be mutated versions of current animals, or genetically created monstrosities.
There is a bit of magic in the form of debuffing, forget how they explain this but it doesn't seem to come off like that with tons of sparkly effects or fireballs or anything like that.
They do make you walk back to complete missions, though on occasion you get to complete the mission while at the site, usually if there's going to be a follow up mission in the same area, from the same npc, right behind it. Sometimes they even go so far as to have you pick up a walkie talkie or radio and they npc radios you when you complete the mission, but its not as often as it probably should be.
Still have to visit the auctioneer in person, guess the Internet didn't survive the apocalypse.
Overall, I think that's what I like about FE. It might be a more traditional quest based game than I usually prefer these days, but the unique non-fantasy nature really appeals to me.
But others decry the game saying its too bleak, too sterile, not colorful enough (they're working on that) and it doesn't appeal to some because of its lack of a fantasy setting.
Me, I like it and plan on sticking with it a while.
Besides, there's nothing quite so satisfying as shooting an opponent in the face with your .410 and watching his body bounce and roll down the hillside.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Science Fiction is its own distinct genre from Fantasy. The problem is that a lot of modern science fiction authors write fantasy under the guise of sci fi; how, for example, is one meant to digest the fantastic scenarios and worlds of authors like Iain Banks, when any rational explanation would fail to meet our own definition of the term? The ideas themselves are too large to encompass with a technological explanation given our current understanding of the universe. In this case, I would consider the works of Banks to be more fantasy than science fiction. So too with derivative IPs such as Star Trek and Star Wars; both make very little attempt at explaining the technology (dilithium crystals? really?) and maintain the mysticism of more traditional fantasy genres (Q; the jedi and sith).
However, science fiction does exist. There is hard SF like the work of Arthur C Clark, modern science fiction such as the works of Crichton, and Philip K Dick, and stuff that lies somewhere in between, such as the works of Haldeman, Heinlein and Bradbury. What all of these authors have in common is that their work is primarily a commentary of the present, rather than escapism. Fantasy tends to be escapist by nature (though not always; the work of Bakker springs to mind), whereas good science fiction tends to explore present issues by imagining new technologies and ideas, and providing a rational explanation for these changes and their effect on society. Fantasy on the other hand, focuses on the individual, generally in the context of a journey or a coming of age.
A good example of science fiction would be The Forever War by Haldeman, which predominantly explores themes of the Vietnam war. Due to the quirks of relativity, the soldiers fighting the war find themselves more and more out of touch with the Earth, as they age slower traveling at light speed than their earth-bound families. Eventually, people on Earth forget how the war started, and know only that frequent engagements have been occurring for thousands of years. Another example would be Heinlein's Starship Troopers (totally different to the movie), which tends to explore the nature of civil society, and the citizen's responsibility in the political realm.
Though you do get similar levels of sophistication in low fantasy genres, high fantasy tends to be far more derivative in setting and theme, and generally focuses on the main character's development. Examples of this include Lord of the Rings,A Wizard of Earthsea, Magician, etc. All of these are coming of age tales, in which the protagonist is placed under burden, and must rise to their responsibilities and exceed their limitations. Quite often, this involves the protagonist becoming obscenely powerful, as a testament to their unusual strength of character. Indeed, one of the greatest contrasts between fantasy and sci fi is that in science fiction, the protagonist is generally just a guy. He doesn't have crazy powers and abilities; his distinctive feature is that he is an everyman in the right place at the right time.
Personally, I agree with the OP. Most science fiction universes (especially in games) are derivative of fantasy. They are fantasy universes being sold as science fiction. A real SF game would have things like insurance and modern banks/credit;no super powers or levels (ordinary people don't need to 'level'); a wide array of vehicles, firearms and professions; sophisticated communications and interface; and possibly, integration of a browser-based metagame into the client. EVE has a few of these. Would be nice to see some others.
Lol, Avatar? Is that your point? Look at the rest of the list. It's all Harry Potter, LotR, PotC, Shrek and so forth. One movie, albeit the most successful (due to its 3D nature, I would suggest) doesn't mean that Sci Fi is so great. In fact, the story of Avatar, as many have said, is directly copied from Pocahontas. The only reason it was so successful is because you couldn't pirate the 3D experience. So people actually went to the movies to see it because it was an experience, not such a great movie.
I like Sci Fi but I do prefer fantasy. I will say that I agree with you though. The technological advancements in sci fi games do seem pretty weak considering that we have some stuff which is more advanced right now. On the other hand, think about what you're saying. If you could hand in a quest without returning, you'd cut the time of completing the quest in half, making you burn through the content much faster. If you could shoot with your laser gun from 100 yds away where would the challenge be? Unless everything had that same range, in which case the actual range becomes arbitrary. Some things need to go against the sci fi nature for the sake of gameplay and length. I would say that jet packs and flying vehicles and the like, should be standard in a sci fi mmo. I can't see the real issue with those, provided they were balanced properly. The rest though is unrealistic in a game.
As somebody else pointed out, Sci-Fi is just a subgenre of Fantasy.
That's what happens when you name your genre and sub-genre the same thing. There's a difference between "fantasy", the set of all things not based on demonstrable reality, and "fantasy", a sub-genre of swords and sorcery. You can't just switch between the two at a whim, saying that everything is fantasy when it's clear the OP was talking about the sub-genre.
Well put. There seems a very distinct difference between sci-fi and fantasy, which is why fantasy does better with movies and sci-fi does better with games.
Fantasy is often about what you want to happen, but never will.
Sci-Fi is often about what you really hope never happens, but has the possibility of someday happening.
In the middle of the two is stuff like Star Wars and Firefly, which are commonly referred to as 'space opera.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This, right here, is why we need an MMO based in the Mass Effect univers. Every single last detail is explained in a scientific way, right down to the biotics.
I must agree that I HATE the fact that, if i have a quantum fusion lazer sniper, some one can be out of range one second then right in my face smaking me with their vibro lazer mace kung fu crap the next second in all mmos that i have played.
A major part of the problem with range in MMOs is the hitpoints. When I played in a Mechwarrior league way back it was a range fight.. casue if you got half way to me, 400 meters or so, you died, cause my god damn 1000m guass cannon saw to that. In an MMO you have HP though, so a few of your most well placed, high powerd shots, will not stop some one from getting up next to you. Melee must be delt with in a new way for it to make sense in a ranged, techno, inviroment.
Lol, Avatar? Is that your point? Look at the rest of the list. It's all Harry Potter, LotR, PotC, Shrek and so forth. One movie, albeit the most successful (due to its 3D nature, I would suggest) doesn't mean that Sci Fi is so great. In fact, the story of Avatar, as many have said, is directly copied from Pocahontas. The only reason it was so successful is because you couldn't pirate the 3D experience. So people actually went to the movies to see it because it was an experience, not such a great movie.
I like Sci Fi but I do prefer fantasy. I will say that I agree with you though. The technological advancements in sci fi games do seem pretty weak considering that we have some stuff which is more advanced right now. On the other hand, think about what you're saying. If you could hand in a quest without returning, you'd cut the time of completing the quest in half, making you burn through the content much faster. If you could shoot with your laser gun from 100 yds away where would the challenge be? Unless everything had that same range, in which case the actual range becomes arbitrary. Some things need to go against the sci fi nature for the sake of gameplay and length. I would say that jet packs and flying vehicles and the like, should be standard in a sci fi mmo. I can't see the real issue with those, provided they were balanced properly. The rest though is unrealistic in a game.
Mechanically-speaking, a "standard" RPG probably isn't the best format for a pure sci-fi game like the one you're envisioning. In most RPGs, which is the standard in MMOs these days, the center of the screen is your character and nothing else, making any range outside of a few yards limited by the comfortable monitor angle. Perhaps an MMOFPS would be a bit better suited, and allow for eliminating certain "standard" RPG tropes like hit points and the chances of a goon running up to you and clubbing you with a stick after you've unloaded half a magazine/battery pack into his skull. A third-person shooter could work as well, though it's also "limited" by camera angle.
I play quite a few FPS, myself, though I'll admit I tend to do best in melee. However, in that particular type of game, being a melee specialist is more of an exercise in cunning, guile, and reflexes than simply running through the hail of bullets. To use an example, I can very rarely knife someone effectively if they're looking right at me; chances are I won't make another step towards him. That kind of system, while still allowing for the melee goons like yours truly, still puts a solid emphasis on range.
As somebody else pointed out, Sci-Fi is just a subgenre of Fantasy.
That's what happens when you name your genre and sub-genre the same thing. There's a difference between "fantasy", the set of all things not based on demonstrable reality, and "fantasy", a sub-genre of swords and sorcery. You can't just switch between the two at a whim, saying that everything is fantasy when it's clear the OP was talking about the sub-genre.
Well put. There seems a very distinct difference between sci-fi and fantasy, which is why fantasy does better with movies and sci-fi does better with games.
Fantasy is often about what you want to happen, but never will.
Sci-Fi is often about what you really hope never happens, but has the possibility of someday happening.
In the middle of the two is stuff like Star Wars and Firefly, which are commonly referred to as 'space opera.'
The other thing to mention is that despite the RIAA crying wolf about internet piracy, many of the highest grossing films of all time come from the past 12 years, during a period in which fantasy movies were overrepresented at cinemas. It isn't some innate property of fantasy films that they are more appealing to moviegoers, only that the special effects necessary to make them realistic are a relatively recent development, and thus they are a new spectacle. During the 80s and 90s, the reverse was true; during this period we got the terminator movies, the predator movies, the star wars movies (though I maintain Star Wars is fantasy), the Star Trek Movies, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Jurassic Park, The Fifth Element, Independence Day, The Alien Saga, and countless others. If you looked at the highest grossing films of all time 10 years ago, all of the top films would have been science fiction movies, not fantasy.
There is no defining feature in any one genre that makes it preferable to others. This is true of games as well as books, films, music; in fact, any creative medium. It's the reason we have genres in the first place, and one of the reasons why people get up in arms when others tell them that a sandbox game or a sci fi MMO won't sell. It's ignorant to say that one art form or style is superior to another, because at the end of the day they all fulfill a need for someone. What you are seeing in the MMO genre, and on that movie list are corporate trends driven by companies, not audiences; one company tries something new, and others follow suit and saturate the market. Remember how many high fantasy movies there were before Lord of the Rings came out? Not many.
Lol, Avatar? Is that your point? Look at the rest of the list. It's all Harry Potter, LotR, PotC, Shrek and so forth. One movie, albeit the most successful (due to its 3D nature, I would suggest) doesn't mean that Sci Fi is so great. In fact, the story of Avatar, as many have said, is directly copied from Pocahontas. The only reason it was so successful is because you couldn't pirate the 3D experience. So people actually went to the movies to see it because it was an experience, not such a great movie.
I like Sci Fi but I do prefer fantasy. I will say that I agree with you though. The technological advancements in sci fi games do seem pretty weak considering that we have some stuff which is more advanced right now. On the other hand, think about what you're saying. If you could hand in a quest without returning, you'd cut the time of completing the quest in half, making you burn through the content much faster. If you could shoot with your laser gun from 100 yds away where would the challenge be? Unless everything had that same range, in which case the actual range becomes arbitrary. Some things need to go against the sci fi nature for the sake of gameplay and length. I would say that jet packs and flying vehicles and the like, should be standard in a sci fi mmo. I can't see the real issue with those, provided they were balanced properly. The rest though is unrealistic in a game.
On top of that, the number one movie of all time is sci-fi.
There is a disclaimer for that list:
"The table above includes movies that have grossed over $100,000,000 at the box office during their theatrical runs.
All amounts are in USA dollars and only include theatrical box office receipts (movie ticket sales) and do not include video rentals, television rights and other revenues. Totals may include theatrical re-release receipts. Figures are not adjusted for inflation.
Some movies may still be in general release; all figures are estimated and subject to change."
Also it does not take into account the change in audience, etc. They are not the best statistics to go on without deeper analysis... to an extent, it calls forth the McDonald's analogy for much of it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
On top of that, the number one movie of all time is sci-fi.
There is a disclaimer for that list:
"The table above includes movies that have grossed over $100,000,000 at the box office during their theatrical runs.
All amounts are in USA dollars and only include theatrical box office receipts (movie ticket sales) and do not include video rentals, television rights and other revenues. Totals may include theatrical re-release receipts. Figures are not adjusted for inflation.
Some movies may still be in general release; all figures are estimated and subject to change."
Also it does not take into account the change in audience, etc. They are not the best statistics to go on without deeper analysis... to an extent, it calls forth the McDonald's analogy for much of it.
It's really meant to contend with the statement above. And it's only used to support the idea that there are millions and millions of people that do not find Sci-fi boring.
I do understand where the OP is coming from, and putting this whole Fantasy/Sci-Fi discussion aside i think he is right. But its not just the mechanics used in fantasy MMOs that do not make sense in a Sci-FI one, its the whole concept of MMOs.
I mean it makes sense that if you do alot of fighting with your sword you will get tougher, faster and stronger. While we might scoff at the asian movie idea of blind drunken martial arts masters pwning whole armies it still feels somehow right that there can be a vast difference in skill, lets call it level 20 to level 60. However once you bring guns into this it changes. The whole point of guns is that any scrawny idiot kid with nervous muscle seizures can be a mean killing machine. A highly trained soldier would still be more effective, but with fully automatic weapons at <50m ranges like we see in games you aswell might flip a coin as to who is going to kill whom.
Thats part of what killed groundcombat in STO for me, you run around shooting your phasers at people and need anything between 5-100 hits to take down the tougher guys. Hello? Sod phasers if thats the best they can do! Give me a AK 43 and that klingon boss with his fancy sword thingy is going down within 5 sec.
So long story short. True Sci-Fi setting do not make sense in a MMO context. Because Sci-Fi is about big bad weapons onehit killing stuff, a lightsaber cuts you in two, it does not leave a slight wound that needs some jedi mentor forcehealing you, unless he can grow back limbs that is, same for blasters or any projectile weapon thats supposed to be more effective than what we have today. MMOs on the other hand are about about players seeign a 10000% improvement or more from level 1 to level xx.
That being said, you might want to take a look into Dust-514. Its supposed to be a FPS/MMO hybrid and will have links to EvE-Online. Depending on how big the MMO aspect will be that might very well be what your looking for, i kinda doubt CCP will add any dragons, elves or magic to their universe.
It's really meant to contend with the statement above. And it's only used to support the idea that there are millions and millions of people that do not find Sci-fi boring.
How many of them know that what they are watching is Sci-Fi and how many think of it just as an adventure or action movie?
Take a look at Avatar at IMDB and the genres that it falls under: Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi, and Fantasy.
It has been voted the #30 Action movie, #29 Adventure, #17 Sci-Fi, and #18 Fantasy.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
There are similarities between sci fi and fantasy, but i agree with OP, rather than fleshing out the possibilities of sci fi, like wireless contact for quests, we are still stuck with exclamation marks.
That is incorrect. Fantasy is a type of fiction. It is a form of speculative fiction. While the word fantasy may have different meanings when discussing different things, when you are discussing literature - the other definitions need not apply.
A person can have a fantasy about the neighbor's wife. Were they to write that story in a modern setting, it would be contemporary fiction and not fantasy fiction.
It is a case of properly using terms, and aside from it perhaps helping some understand why what people have said in this thread - it is not really something that should be discussed beyond the brief (somewhat brief) amount that it has been.
If you want more information on the various terms, there are many sources available for them - the internet, the library, a bookstore, or perhaps even checking with the English department at a local university where either a lit professor or creative writing professor would be able to offer additional resources...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Anarchy Online and a few other games have mission terminals.
City of Heroes/Villains offers a hybrid system of contact. Once the contact knows you well enough, they provide you with their number so you can call them so you no longer have to make the trip. You also have options such as reading the newspaper and listening to the police band.
One could see games offering the players to check forums, bulletin boards, e-mail, social networking sites, and all the rest inside of a game as they carry out their missions.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Its already been done, its called city of heroes, and its really nothing that spectacular.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Vehicles are available in Anarchy Online. It would be interesting to see how they would be handled in a more standard sci-fi game or even a modern game...the simple logistics, parking, fuel, traffic, making payments, and all the rest there.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Fantasy and Science Fiction are similiar genres, but neither is a subset of the other. Science fiction posits something like the nature of the world as we know it, but with changes. And it explores the effect such changes have on the way things work. A simple change could have tremendous effects. Say someone discovers a cheap way to extend human life for up to 500 years: What effect does it have on the world? Of course most writers do this by following a major character, and writing a decent story around them.
Fantasy delves more into world building that does not need to follow the same rules as the present world. Hence figures from myth and legend, or elves or magic, etc.
Everything that has a robot is not Science Fiction (SF) (despite the cluelessness fo the SciFI (syfy- iffy) chanel). Thus Star Wars is not SF: It is Space Opera. Like many others, it uses the trappings of SF, but dispenses with any need to fit things to the natural enviornment. That's the reason that space fighters fly like WWI biplanes when fighting in space, where there is no gravity, friction or atmosphere to make them behave that way. Space Opera is a subgenre. There are lots of others, and also gradiations between them.
For the OP, sounds like you are out of luck. There are a few SF (or even SF trappinged) MMOs out there, but the fantasy versions are thought to sell better. Some of the things that you want are just difficult to do. Consider the difficulties of rendering a mile for those long range shots. Etc. There are technical limitations that make some of those ideas hard to do. Others are just a failure of imagination.
Maybe World of Tanks?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The Farscape impaired.. we must pity them
That then just leaves you with how many different variations of human or robot mobs to kill and storyline which as you can see in Global Agenda the content is scarce in the open zone and how many times can you kill robot x and y til it gets old?
It would be nice tho if someone made a Deus Ex game in the same way that Guild Wars was(not the setting theme)but have personal maps where you could do the storyline of the rpg either alone or with friends and have hubs like a town where you could run into other players and such.
For clarity's sake, I am not lamenting the aesthetics; I am lamenting the mechanics. And I'm referring to MMO genres when I say "fantasy", not the stupidly broad literary or literal definition of "fantasy" (that being simply "...that which is imagined").
MMOs are derived from the hack and slash MUDs which came before them. The first two great MMO examples being EQ and UO. Unfortunately, rather than approaching the concept of an MMO from a fresh science fiction perspective developers instead derive their mechanics from MMO predecessors which are predominately fantasy.
Does that make sense?
You could take any ground-based sci-fi MMO on the market today and convert it into pure fantasy by simply changing some meshes and textures. Why is that?
Because travel methods are still medieval, if they exist at all, sans the omnipresent generic teleportation act.
Because melee is still included in every sci-fi MMO and it inexplicably dominates ranged weapons.
Because ranged weapons usually only work in melee or close-to-melee ranges anyways.
Because staple fantasy creatures are regurgitated into the universes at any cost.
Because even with all of the tech in the world developers still feel the need to shoe-horn straight up magic into their game.
And that's just off the top of my head.
My point is that from MUDs we derived the first MMOs. From the first MMOs we derived everything which came forth since. The problem here, for us science fiction types, is that nowhere in this evolution were derivations rooted in anything but fantasy settings.
This is why science fiction MMOs suck and why developers should be ashamed of themselves for labeling sci-fi MMOs "sci-fi" at all.
I'd say judging on your two posts, Fallen Earth would be the closest thing out there in terms of non-fantasy gaming.
There are various vehicles to travel in and fight from including horses, atv's, dune buggys, motorcycles and sports cars.
Melee is included, and in many ways is somewhat OP'd, but the best builds for PVP are still considered to be dual weilding pistol builds, myself I prefer rifles.
As far as ranged combat, did you ever really fight with ranged weapons. If its a handgun you really only have short ranges as being realistic, you might fight with a rifle at 50M's, but a not so much with the average handgun. But the good news is, FE does have sniping ranges up to 70M (that I've used) and you can do quite a bit of damage at that range with a cross bow or sniper rifle. For up close work you switch to the shotgun, which has a much larger targeting reticule. It's not perfect of course, but its not bad compared to the rest of the market.
There are absolutely no elves, orcs or goblins anywhere in the game. All of the npc mobs appear to be mutated versions of current animals, or genetically created monstrosities.
There is a bit of magic in the form of debuffing, forget how they explain this but it doesn't seem to come off like that with tons of sparkly effects or fireballs or anything like that.
They do make you walk back to complete missions, though on occasion you get to complete the mission while at the site, usually if there's going to be a follow up mission in the same area, from the same npc, right behind it. Sometimes they even go so far as to have you pick up a walkie talkie or radio and they npc radios you when you complete the mission, but its not as often as it probably should be.
Still have to visit the auctioneer in person, guess the Internet didn't survive the apocalypse.
Overall, I think that's what I like about FE. It might be a more traditional quest based game than I usually prefer these days, but the unique non-fantasy nature really appeals to me.
But others decry the game saying its too bleak, too sterile, not colorful enough (they're working on that) and it doesn't appeal to some because of its lack of a fantasy setting.
Me, I like it and plan on sticking with it a while.
Besides, there's nothing quite so satisfying as shooting an opponent in the face with your .410 and watching his body bounce and roll down the hillside.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Science Fiction is its own distinct genre from Fantasy. The problem is that a lot of modern science fiction authors write fantasy under the guise of sci fi; how, for example, is one meant to digest the fantastic scenarios and worlds of authors like Iain Banks, when any rational explanation would fail to meet our own definition of the term? The ideas themselves are too large to encompass with a technological explanation given our current understanding of the universe. In this case, I would consider the works of Banks to be more fantasy than science fiction. So too with derivative IPs such as Star Trek and Star Wars; both make very little attempt at explaining the technology (dilithium crystals? really?) and maintain the mysticism of more traditional fantasy genres (Q; the jedi and sith).
However, science fiction does exist. There is hard SF like the work of Arthur C Clark, modern science fiction such as the works of Crichton, and Philip K Dick, and stuff that lies somewhere in between, such as the works of Haldeman, Heinlein and Bradbury. What all of these authors have in common is that their work is primarily a commentary of the present, rather than escapism. Fantasy tends to be escapist by nature (though not always; the work of Bakker springs to mind), whereas good science fiction tends to explore present issues by imagining new technologies and ideas, and providing a rational explanation for these changes and their effect on society. Fantasy on the other hand, focuses on the individual, generally in the context of a journey or a coming of age.
A good example of science fiction would be The Forever War by Haldeman, which predominantly explores themes of the Vietnam war. Due to the quirks of relativity, the soldiers fighting the war find themselves more and more out of touch with the Earth, as they age slower traveling at light speed than their earth-bound families. Eventually, people on Earth forget how the war started, and know only that frequent engagements have been occurring for thousands of years. Another example would be Heinlein's Starship Troopers (totally different to the movie), which tends to explore the nature of civil society, and the citizen's responsibility in the political realm.
Though you do get similar levels of sophistication in low fantasy genres, high fantasy tends to be far more derivative in setting and theme, and generally focuses on the main character's development. Examples of this include Lord of the Rings,A Wizard of Earthsea, Magician, etc. All of these are coming of age tales, in which the protagonist is placed under burden, and must rise to their responsibilities and exceed their limitations. Quite often, this involves the protagonist becoming obscenely powerful, as a testament to their unusual strength of character. Indeed, one of the greatest contrasts between fantasy and sci fi is that in science fiction, the protagonist is generally just a guy. He doesn't have crazy powers and abilities; his distinctive feature is that he is an everyman in the right place at the right time.
Personally, I agree with the OP. Most science fiction universes (especially in games) are derivative of fantasy. They are fantasy universes being sold as science fiction. A real SF game would have things like insurance and modern banks/credit;no super powers or levels (ordinary people don't need to 'level'); a wide array of vehicles, firearms and professions; sophisticated communications and interface; and possibly, integration of a browser-based metagame into the client. EVE has a few of these. Would be nice to see some others.
my 2c
Lol, Avatar? Is that your point? Look at the rest of the list. It's all Harry Potter, LotR, PotC, Shrek and so forth. One movie, albeit the most successful (due to its 3D nature, I would suggest) doesn't mean that Sci Fi is so great. In fact, the story of Avatar, as many have said, is directly copied from Pocahontas. The only reason it was so successful is because you couldn't pirate the 3D experience. So people actually went to the movies to see it because it was an experience, not such a great movie.
I like Sci Fi but I do prefer fantasy. I will say that I agree with you though. The technological advancements in sci fi games do seem pretty weak considering that we have some stuff which is more advanced right now. On the other hand, think about what you're saying. If you could hand in a quest without returning, you'd cut the time of completing the quest in half, making you burn through the content much faster. If you could shoot with your laser gun from 100 yds away where would the challenge be? Unless everything had that same range, in which case the actual range becomes arbitrary. Some things need to go against the sci fi nature for the sake of gameplay and length. I would say that jet packs and flying vehicles and the like, should be standard in a sci fi mmo. I can't see the real issue with those, provided they were balanced properly. The rest though is unrealistic in a game.
Well put. There seems a very distinct difference between sci-fi and fantasy, which is why fantasy does better with movies and sci-fi does better with games.
Fantasy is often about what you want to happen, but never will.
Sci-Fi is often about what you really hope never happens, but has the possibility of someday happening.
In the middle of the two is stuff like Star Wars and Firefly, which are commonly referred to as 'space opera.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This, right here, is why we need an MMO based in the Mass Effect univers. Every single last detail is explained in a scientific way, right down to the biotics.
I must agree that I HATE the fact that, if i have a quantum fusion lazer sniper, some one can be out of range one second then right in my face smaking me with their vibro lazer mace kung fu crap the next second in all mmos that i have played.
A major part of the problem with range in MMOs is the hitpoints. When I played in a Mechwarrior league way back it was a range fight.. casue if you got half way to me, 400 meters or so, you died, cause my god damn 1000m guass cannon saw to that. In an MMO you have HP though, so a few of your most well placed, high powerd shots, will not stop some one from getting up next to you. Melee must be delt with in a new way for it to make sense in a ranged, techno, inviroment.
Avatar
The Dark Knight
Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Jurassic Park
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
Independence Day
Inception
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
2012
The Matrix Reloaded
Transformers
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Hancock
On top of that, the number one movie of all time is sci-fi.
Why are all sci-fi protagonists named Neo? (Disclaimer: I'm only talking about sci-fi movies based on The Matrix.)
Same basic situation the OP has given us..
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Mechanically-speaking, a "standard" RPG probably isn't the best format for a pure sci-fi game like the one you're envisioning. In most RPGs, which is the standard in MMOs these days, the center of the screen is your character and nothing else, making any range outside of a few yards limited by the comfortable monitor angle. Perhaps an MMOFPS would be a bit better suited, and allow for eliminating certain "standard" RPG tropes like hit points and the chances of a goon running up to you and clubbing you with a stick after you've unloaded half a magazine/battery pack into his skull. A third-person shooter could work as well, though it's also "limited" by camera angle.
I play quite a few FPS, myself, though I'll admit I tend to do best in melee. However, in that particular type of game, being a melee specialist is more of an exercise in cunning, guile, and reflexes than simply running through the hail of bullets. To use an example, I can very rarely knife someone effectively if they're looking right at me; chances are I won't make another step towards him. That kind of system, while still allowing for the melee goons like yours truly, still puts a solid emphasis on range.
So is this sci-fi or fantasy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ShFb-I5rE? And what about The Terminator or The Matrix?
The other thing to mention is that despite the RIAA crying wolf about internet piracy, many of the highest grossing films of all time come from the past 12 years, during a period in which fantasy movies were overrepresented at cinemas. It isn't some innate property of fantasy films that they are more appealing to moviegoers, only that the special effects necessary to make them realistic are a relatively recent development, and thus they are a new spectacle. During the 80s and 90s, the reverse was true; during this period we got the terminator movies, the predator movies, the star wars movies (though I maintain Star Wars is fantasy), the Star Trek Movies, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Jurassic Park, The Fifth Element, Independence Day, The Alien Saga, and countless others. If you looked at the highest grossing films of all time 10 years ago, all of the top films would have been science fiction movies, not fantasy.
There is no defining feature in any one genre that makes it preferable to others. This is true of games as well as books, films, music; in fact, any creative medium. It's the reason we have genres in the first place, and one of the reasons why people get up in arms when others tell them that a sandbox game or a sci fi MMO won't sell. It's ignorant to say that one art form or style is superior to another, because at the end of the day they all fulfill a need for someone. What you are seeing in the MMO genre, and on that movie list are corporate trends driven by companies, not audiences; one company tries something new, and others follow suit and saturate the market. Remember how many high fantasy movies there were before Lord of the Rings came out? Not many.
There is a disclaimer for that list:
"The table above includes movies that have grossed over $100,000,000 at the box office during their theatrical runs.
All amounts are in USA dollars and only include theatrical box office receipts (movie ticket sales) and do not include video rentals, television rights and other revenues. Totals may include theatrical re-release receipts. Figures are not adjusted for inflation.
Some movies may still be in general release; all figures are estimated and subject to change."
Also it does not take into account the change in audience, etc. They are not the best statistics to go on without deeper analysis... to an extent, it calls forth the McDonald's analogy for much of it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It's really meant to contend with the statement above. And it's only used to support the idea that there are millions and millions of people that do not find Sci-fi boring.
I do understand where the OP is coming from, and putting this whole Fantasy/Sci-Fi discussion aside i think he is right. But its not just the mechanics used in fantasy MMOs that do not make sense in a Sci-FI one, its the whole concept of MMOs.
I mean it makes sense that if you do alot of fighting with your sword you will get tougher, faster and stronger. While we might scoff at the asian movie idea of blind drunken martial arts masters pwning whole armies it still feels somehow right that there can be a vast difference in skill, lets call it level 20 to level 60. However once you bring guns into this it changes. The whole point of guns is that any scrawny idiot kid with nervous muscle seizures can be a mean killing machine. A highly trained soldier would still be more effective, but with fully automatic weapons at <50m ranges like we see in games you aswell might flip a coin as to who is going to kill whom.
Thats part of what killed groundcombat in STO for me, you run around shooting your phasers at people and need anything between 5-100 hits to take down the tougher guys. Hello? Sod phasers if thats the best they can do! Give me a AK 43 and that klingon boss with his fancy sword thingy is going down within 5 sec.
So long story short. True Sci-Fi setting do not make sense in a MMO context. Because Sci-Fi is about big bad weapons onehit killing stuff, a lightsaber cuts you in two, it does not leave a slight wound that needs some jedi mentor forcehealing you, unless he can grow back limbs that is, same for blasters or any projectile weapon thats supposed to be more effective than what we have today. MMOs on the other hand are about about players seeign a 10000% improvement or more from level 1 to level xx.
That being said, you might want to take a look into Dust-514. Its supposed to be a FPS/MMO hybrid and will have links to EvE-Online. Depending on how big the MMO aspect will be that might very well be what your looking for, i kinda doubt CCP will add any dragons, elves or magic to their universe.
That statement is wrong. Sci-fi is not a sub-genre of fantasy, they are sub-genre of Fiction.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
How many of them know that what they are watching is Sci-Fi and how many think of it just as an adventure or action movie?
Take a look at Avatar at IMDB and the genres that it falls under: Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi, and Fantasy.
It has been voted the #30 Action movie, #29 Adventure, #17 Sci-Fi, and #18 Fantasy.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%