Take "I Robot" and putt everything into a high fantasy setting. Turn the robots into another race of creatures that are being alienates/used for slavery.
Bam, "I Robot" is now fantasy with a moral twist. You can shift moral arguments through any genre using story. The fact is, Star Wars IS sci-fi.
lol, i think you need to rethink that.
No it wouldn't be fantasy because the story is not about that. The story about I-robot, the reason it was written is to show man's relationship to what is considered a tool, pretty much a fancy toaster. It is then discovered that this toaster, that man created (important part there) has autonomous thought.
the key elements there is that man created something to be a tool but this tool might be more than a tool and "how does manking deal with that".
Of course, we would have to alter that really make one think:
Put it in a fantasy setting and have it that through alchemy mankind creates a homonculous as a tool However, these homonculi turn out to have autonymous thought. How does mankind deal with this?
So is that actually a fantasy novel? I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that.
Change the robot to a group of constructs. Basically, fantasy robots created to serve.
Constructs are tools. Construct gain sentience. Conflict occurs and moral dilemmas arise.
This is fantasy. I Robot is now fantasy.
Edit: This is of course ridiculous. I Robot is science fiction. Star Wars is science fiction.
Take "I Robot" and put everything into a high fantasy setting. Turn the robots into another race of creatures (constructs will do) that are being alienates/used for slavery.
Bam, "I Robot" is now fantasy with a moral twist. You can shift moral arguments through any genre using story. The fact is, Star Wars IS sci-fi.
I was going to go with the "I, Woman" piece dealing with the 14th Amendment and Women's Sufferage myself for that one. Could also do a "I, American" one if you wanted something more contemporary - dealing with a naturalized Mexican immigrant seeking recognition of his citizenship in the State of Arizona...
...it is not about the story. It is about the elements - setting being a key aspect of that even though it is being dismissed for some odd reason.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Actually Star Wars is Science Fantasy. It borrows elements from both genre's. As Rod Serling put it "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." and Jedi's using the force tend to fall into the realm of Fantasy as the things Jedi and Syth are capable of are impossible, not implausible.
The force is in essence magic.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet, plausible or not - is in essence magic.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Take "I Robot" and put everything into a high fantasy setting. Turn the robots into another race of creatures (constructs will do) that are being alienates/used for slavery.
Bam, "I Robot" is now fantasy with a moral twist. You can shift moral arguments through any genre using story. The fact is, Star Wars IS sci-fi.
I was going to go with the "I, Woman" piece dealing with the 14th Amendment and Women's Sufferage myself for that one. Could also do a "I, American" one if you wanted something more contemporary - dealing with a naturalized Mexican immigrant seeking recognition of his citizenship in the State of Arizona...
...it is not about the story. It is about the elements - setting being a key aspect of that even though it is being dismissed for some odd reason.
I"m not dismissing setting. But the setting does not make the genre. Because "again" take gone with the wind and add all the futuristic acoutrements and it's not science fiction.
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No it wouldn't be fantasy because the story is not about that. The story about I-robot, the reason it was written is to show man's relationship to what is considered a tool, pretty much a fancy toaster. It is then discovered that this toaster, that man created (important part there) has autonomous thought.
the key elements there are that man created something to be a tool, a machine (very important) but this tool might be more than a tool , more than a machine. And "how does manking deal with that".
Of course, we would have to alter that to really make one think:
Put it in a fantasy setting and have it that through alchemy mankind creates a homonculous as a tool However, these homonculi turn out to have autonymous thought. How does mankind deal with this?
So is that actually a fantasy novel? I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that.
That would be the story if the title was perhaps "He, Robot"... but it is "I, Robot". The story is about the robot being more. It is a human story.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Actually Star Wars is Science Fantasy. It borrows elements from both genre's. As Rod Serling put it "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." and Jedi's using the force tend to fall into the realm of Fantasy as the things Jedi and Syth are capable of are impossible, not implausible.
The force is in essence magic.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet, plausible or not - is in essence magic.
Grasping at straws will get us no where. Magic isn't plausible, it isn't implausible, it's impossible.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet is implausible, but not impossible.
Now if the Jedi were using some device to do the things they do then we could go the implausible route. But they aren't using technology to do these things, they are using some mystic unseen force that connects all things lol.
No it wouldn't be fantasy because the story is not about that. The story about I-robot, the reason it was written is to show man's relationship to what is considered a tool, pretty much a fancy toaster. It is then discovered that this toaster, that man created (important part there) has autonomous thought.
the key elements there are that man created something to be a tool, a machine (very important) but this tool might be more than a tool , more than a machine. And "how does manking deal with that".
Of course, we would have to alter that to really make one think:
Put it in a fantasy setting and have it that through alchemy mankind creates a homonculous as a tool However, these homonculi turn out to have autonymous thought. How does mankind deal with this?
So is that actually a fantasy novel? I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that.
That would be the story if the title was perhaps "He, Robot"... but it is "I, Robot". The story is about the robot being more. It is a human story.
very good point and I agree, it is a "human" story. But it's important to remember that whether it is fantasy or sci-fi or "Watership Down" that they are all, in the end, a human story.
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I"m not dismissing setting. But the setting does not make the genre. Because "again" take gone with the wind and add all the futuristic acoutrements and it's not science fiction.
Actually Star Wars is Science Fantasy. It borrows elements from both genre's. As Rod Serling put it "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." and Jedi's using the force tend to fall into the realm of Fantasy as the things Jedi and Syth are capable of are impossible, not implausible.
The force is in essence magic.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet, plausible or not - is in essence magic.
Grasping at straws will get us no where. Magic isn't plausible, it isn't implausible, it's impossible.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet is implausible, but not impossible.
Now if the Jedi were using some device to do the things they do then we could go the implausible route. But they aren't using technology to do these things, they are using some mystic unseen force that connects all things lol.
They are not using a mystic force. They are using a biological force. Is there a cult surrounding this technology? Yes. It does not make the underlying principle magic.
ComStar from the BattleTech universe is a well known religious order...technological order. Oh wait, they are a technological order steeped in mysticism.
How many people working in IT might offer up a prayer before the launch of a new project so that nothing goes wrong? Does that make it mystical?
In regard to things being plausible, before the invention of the wheel - were things such as automobiles plausible?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Grasping at straws will get us no where. Magic isn't plausible, it isn't implausible, it's impossible.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet is implausible, but not impossible.
Now if the Jedi were using some device to do the things they do then we could go the implausible route. But they aren't using technology to do these things, they are using some mystic unseen force that connects all things lol.
I guess I actually have to SHOW you what the force is since you refuse to read about it on your own. I already included this in a previous post in this thread, but here you go anyway. The force is not based on "magic." It's based on a theoretical attraction between symbionts that exist within the cells of all other living things. It's not considered "magic."
Midi-chlorians (also spelled "midi-clorians" or "midichlorians") are a microorganism in the fictional Star Warsgalaxy, first mentioned in The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.[6] They are symbionts with all other living things and without them life could not exist. The Jedi have learned how to listen to and coordinate the midi-chlorians. While every living being thus has a connection to the Force, one must have a high enough concentration of midi-chlorians in one's cells in order to be a Jedi or aSith.[7][8]
Actually Star Wars is Science Fantasy. It borrows elements from both genre's. As Rod Serling put it "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." and Jedi's using the force tend to fall into the realm of Fantasy as the things Jedi and Syth are capable of are impossible, not implausible.
The force is in essence magic.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet, plausible or not - is in essence magic.
Grasping at straws will get us no where. Magic isn't plausible, it isn't implausible, it's impossible.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet is implausible, but not impossible.
Now if the Jedi were using some device to do the things they do then we could go the implausible route. But they aren't using technology to do these things, they are using some mystic unseen force that connects all things lol.
They are not using a mystic force. They are using a biological force. Is there a cult surrounding this technology? Yes. It does not make the underlying principle magic.
ComStar from the BattleTech universe is a well known religious order...technological order. Oh wait, they are a technological order steeped in mysticism.
How many people working in IT might offer up a prayer before the launch of a new project so that nothing goes wrong? Does that make it mystical?
In regard to things being plausible, before the invention of the wheel - were things such as automobiles plausible?
Yes, yes, people got tired of the whole "Jedi are Wizards" thing so they tried to explain why they could use magic. It doesn't change much though lol.
"I got my super powers from Biology and not magic so that makes me part of Science Fiction" lol.
But in any case, I'm stepping out of this debate lol. Call your sword wielding wizards science fiction if you want lol.
I"m not dismissing setting. But the setting does not make the genre. Because "again" take gone with the wind and add all the futuristic acoutrements and it's not science fiction.
Could Gone With The Wind be written as Sci-Fi? Yes.
Could Fahrenheit 451 be written as something other than Sci-Fi? Yes.
But again that comes back to my argument that science fiction is one that incorporates "science" or the "future plausible" or something outlandish that "might" be possible, as a part of the story. I say future plausible (as my own coined term but can't think of a better one at the moment) becasue I would also say that invasion of the body snatchers is science fiction. Of course, the chance that there are pod like creatures waiting to land on earth and start taking over is a bit far fetched but who knows what alien life "might' be out there.
There is of course some suspension of disbelief. Journey to the center of the earth is an adventure story but many seem to say that Jules Verne was an early science fiction writer. It's hard to ignore 20,000 leagues under the sea and not think of the great submarine allowing the characters to discover all sorts of fantastial worlds. But these worlds are based on what has gone before (if memory serves). Dinosaurs did exiset and the idea is that there is a place where they still exist. We do know there are giant squid of course.
While I think this over I will include this link as it supports my argument but I am not presenting it as anything definitive or to try to be antying other than something interesting to mull over.
Yes, yes, people got tired of the whole "Jedi are Wizards" thing so they tried to explain why they could use magic. It doesn't change much though lol.
"I got my super powers from Biology and not magic so that makes me part of Science Fiction" lol.
But in any case, I'm stepping out of this debate lol. Call your sword wielding wizards science fiction if you want lol.
Eh...
There is a lot of sci-fi out there that includes religious experiences and things happening without a noticeable, explainable reason. Look at Frank Herbert's Dune. That is sci-fi. It has things that can not be explained by science.
Even if the force was not explained biologically, it would still have a place in a science fiction novel if the author chose to have it there.
We can't explain gravity except through observation. Who is to say there can't be a force similar to the law of gravity that everyone must accept as a law based purely on observation?
It just doesn't take the sci-fi out of Star Wars. At all.
Yes, yes, people got tired of the whole "Jedi are Wizards" thing so they tried to explain why they could use magic. It doesn't change much though lol.
"I got my super powers from Biology and not magic so that makes me part of Science Fiction" lol.
But in any case, I'm stepping out of this debate lol. Call your sword wielding wizards science fiction if you want lol.
Eh...
There is a lot of sci-fi out there that includes religious experiences and things happening without a noticeable, explainable reason. Look at Frank Herbert's Dune. That is sci-fi. It has things that can not be explained by science.
Even if the force was not explained biologically, it would still have a place in a science fiction novel if the author chose to have it there.
We can't explain gravity except through observation. Who is to say there can't be a force similar to the law of gravity that everyone must accept as a law based purely on observation?
It just doesn't take the sci-fi out of Star Wars. At all.
To be honest regardless of how one explains the force, I don't really believe it makes or breaks the sci-fi definition.
I can easily see a science ficiton story incorporating "the force" as a mystical energy which of course would allow the characters to struggle with what is a perceived scientific reality in conjunction with good old fashioined faith.
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There is a lot of sci-fi out there that includes religious experiences and things happening without a noticeable, explainable reason. Look at Frank Herbert's Dune. That is sci-fi. It has things that can not be explained by science.
Even if the force was not explained biologically, it would still have a place in a science fiction novel if the author chose to have it there.
We can't explain gravity except through observation. Who is to say there can't be a force similar to the law of gravity that everyone must accept as a law based purely on observation?
It just doesn't take the sci-fi out of Star Wars. At all.
To be honest regardless of how one explains the force, I don't really believe it makes or breaks the sci-fi definition.
I can easily see a science ficiton story incorporating "the force" as a mystical energy which of course would allow the characters to struggle with what is a perceived scientific reality in conjunction with good old fashioined faith.
Right, I agree. That was basically my point in addressing him. Having a mystical force like that would not throw it into the fantasy genre.
Either way, I think I'm finally done with this. I'm sure that this argument has gone on since the beginning of sci-fi and fantasy about all kinds of alternate realities presented. I will just say this.
Star wars is, according to almost everyone, part of the sci-fi genre. To interpret it differently is up to each person and stands outside of popular belief. It doesn't mean that popular belief is right or wrong. It just means that people have come to accept Star Wars as being part of the Sci-fi genre for a long time.
There is a lot of sci-fi out there that includes religious experiences and things happening without a noticeable, explainable reason. Look at Frank Herbert's Dune. That is sci-fi. It has things that can not be explained by science.
Even if the force was not explained biologically, it would still have a place in a science fiction novel if the author chose to have it there.
We can't explain gravity except through observation. Who is to say there can't be a force similar to the law of gravity that everyone must accept as a law based purely on observation?
It just doesn't take the sci-fi out of Star Wars. At all.
To be honest regardless of how one explains the force, I don't really believe it makes or breaks the sci-fi definition.
I can easily see a science ficiton story incorporating "the force" as a mystical energy which of course would allow the characters to struggle with what is a perceived scientific reality in conjunction with good old fashioined faith.
Right, I agree. That was basically my point in addressing him. Having a mystical force like that would not throw it into the fantasy genre.
Either way, I think I'm finally done with this. I'm sure that this argument has gone on since the beginning of sci-fi and fantasy about all kinds of alternate realities presented. I will just say this.
Star wars is, according to almost everyone, part of the sci-fi genre. To interpret it differently is up to each person and stands outside of popular belief. It doesn't mean that popular belief is right or wrong. It just means that people have come to accept Star Wars as being part of the Sci-fi genre for a long time.
To be honest, I am glad of this debate.
It's better than "this game sucks, this game doesn't suck", etc.
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It's really meant to contend with the statement above. And it's only used to support the idea that there are millions and millions of people that do not find Sci-fi boring.
How many of them know that what they are watching is Sci-Fi and how many think of it just as an adventure or action movie?
Take a look at Avatar at IMDB and the genres that it falls under: Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi, and Fantasy.
It has been voted the #30 Action movie, #29 Adventure, #17 Sci-Fi, and #18 Fantasy.
Uhh.... many people, in fact millions of people, do not find the sci-fi genre boring. It's not that hard.
I am going to go with the possibility that I did not successfully communicate my point well rather than make any comments about not reading what I said, ignoring what I said, or just trolling what I said...
Movies fall into multiple genres. In the case of Avatar, how many people went to see it thinking they were going to see a Sci-Fi movie? How many went thinking they were going to see a Fantasy, Action, or Adventure movie?
One can utilize a list of movies to state that Sci-Fi movies are dominant when those movies are classified under a myriad of genres.
I did not state anything in regard to anybody finding sci-fi boring.
I don't think anyone I've talked to though Avatar was anything but a sci-fi movie. I mean, if you really thought you would see something else when you saw a teasor or had a co-worker say go see it, I highly doubt that would say its an anything but.
Back to the topic, a couple games have been mentioned. Neocron and Fallen Earth I would say are about as non-fantasy as you can get. How about Planetside?
What your complaining about "range" is really kinda pointless, its instituted for most games to reduce server lag and such. Galaxies was(if not still) instituted range penalities and bonuses on weapons. Really, a game isn't got to replicate real-life with our current technologies to an exact "T"
To each his own really in the case of determining what genre something is. Sure a Lightsabre and the force could be seen as magic. But on the lore, it isn't magic, its the force. Hell even Han Solo says "don't give me the mystical force crap" or something fo the sort in A New Hope.
Can we say something is either, multiple, or whatever? Sure. It seems your expecting something insanely great to come out for an MMO. Maybe we will get a MechWarrior MMO? MMOs relate to killing hundreds of thousands of creatures, people, etc defies logical in every sense of the word. I'm sorry, but if you see me slaughtering your buddy 10 feet away, your not going to have the whole village of "insert fantasy, alien type, etc" and not come bash my skull in. Games are meant to suspend belief in order to make them playable, and if you can't suspend that, then MMOs of all games are not for you in the least.
You mention games such as Tabula Rasa and others that institute changes to the physical form to make something appear more logical. Have you seen modern technology? Do you know where or technology that can manipulate the human body in the next 50 will be?
Not sure why people are discussing if sci-f is a sub genre of fantasy or not, that is just semantics.
The point is that they are different. You know laser weapons, powerfields, starbases, ultra fast vehicles and aliens instead of bearded old men casting spells, orcs, swords, horses and what not. They are clearly different and I would wonder too why the existing sci-fi MMORPGs are basically fantasy MMORPGs with sci-fi skin.
For sure Star Trek is nothing like LOTR so why must sci-fi MMORPGs be so much like fantasy MMORPGs?
I guess the easy answer is because it is dificult to create a game where you have weapons with 1000 metre range and starbases that can destroy planets or ships the size of cities. *shrug*
The novel opens aboard the space station Georgia in April 2261 at Tara Industries, the nanoprocessor plant owned by the O'Hara family. Scarlett O'Hara, a striking young woman of sixteen, is sitting in the breakroom of the warehouse with the Tarleton twins, Stuart and Brent. The nineteen-year-old Tarleton twins have just been expelled from the U.N. Space Academy, and their elder brothers, Tom and Boyd, have also left in solidarity with them. The twins discuss the prospect of civil war between the Consortium of space-based industrial corporations that favor the use of robotics and the "Luddites" - the political party that has taken power back on Earth which favors a return to basic humanistic endeavors and shunning technology. The Consortium's attorneys had filed a notice of intent to separate from the Earth's governments in February 2261.
Scarlett is bored by talk of war, and changes the subject, asking the twins about the rave at the Wilkes' nightclub, Twelve Stars, the next day. The twins tell Scarlett that Ashley Wilkes, the son of the owner of Twelve Stars, will announce his engagement to his cousin, Melanie Hamilton. Scarlett is shocked, as she had wanted Ashley for herself. She does not admit this to the twins, however, and they are baffled by her sudden quietness. They obtain her promise to go with them to the rave and to dance with them.
After they leave Tara Industries, the Tarleton brothers speculate about possible explanations for Scarlett's change in mood. They fail to find an answer and ask their robotic groom, Jeems, his opinion. Jeems points out that Scarlett went quiet at the news of Ashley's engagement.
Chapter 2
Scarlett is left in the breakroom, feeling miserable. She cannot believe that Ashley could love "a mousy little person like Melanie." She thinks that he really loves her, Scarlett. Scarlett hides her feelings from Mammy - the robot who has always been her nanny and before that, her mother Ellen's - as Mammy would tell Ellen.
Scarlett knows that her father, Gerald, took his grav limo over to the Twelve Stars nightclub to retrieve the robot named Dilcey, the companion of his robotic valet, Pork. He had loaned Dilcey to Twelve Stars while work was being done on one of their robots. Scarlett plans to find out from Gerald whether the twins' story is true. She runs to his office to meet him on his return.
Scarlett watches Gerald walk towards his office with a drink in hand. Scarlett sighs, because he recently had been drinking too much and promised Ellen, his wife, that he would never drink again. Startled that he has been seen, Gerald asks Scarlett if she is going to tell Ellen, but Scarlett insists that she will keep his secret. Gerald tells her that he has brought Dilcey and her robot doll, Prissy. Scarlett casually asks if Ashley was there. Gerald instantly realizes that Scarlett is romantically interested in him. He confirms that Ashley is to marry Melanie, and advises Scarlett to forget about him, as he would not make her happy. He says that Ashley is too interested in books and poetry, and that the Wilkes are "queer folk, and it's best that they marry their cousins and keep their queerness to themselves." He adds that though Ashley is good at the traditional men's pastimes of high speed grav racing and playing poker, his heart is not in them. He tells his daughter, "Technology is the only thing in the world that amounts to anything."
As they go into the office, they meet Ellen carrying her A.I. powered netbook, with Mammy following. They are going to Slattery Designs, where the uncertified Emmie Slattery is having trouble with the code for a new website that is not expected to launch on time. Ellen intends to help with the server-side coding. Gerald and Mammy both rail against the Slatterys, poor web designers with offices on the first floor, as "uneducated trash" undeserving of Ellen's help.
Scarlett muses on how her brash father managed to marry a refined aristocrat like her mother.
Chapter 3
The chapter begins by telling Ellen's story. She had come from a French aristocratic family, the Robillards, from Savannah. In spite of Ellen's calm, gentle manner, she was always obeyed at Tara Industries, whereas Gerald's blustering was ignored: "There was a steely quality under her stately gentleness that awed the whole office staff." When Ellen was fifteen, she had been passionately in love with her cousin, Philippe Robillard. Her family had driven him away and he had died in a nightclub brawl. Heartbroken, Ellen had decided to leave the company to get away from reminders of Philippe, and, to the mystification of her family and the high society in which she moved, accepted a proposal of marriage from a low-born but kindly Irishman - Gerald.
Gerald had come to the space station from Ireland at the age of twenty-one. Gerald's family was poor and Luddites, and for years had actively opposed the advancement of A.I. and robotics. Gerald had killed a corporate landlord's rent agent and had left Ireland with a price on his head. He had gone to work at the space station store belonging to his brothers, James and Andrew, who were already living on Georgia. Gerald was ambitious, and had not wanted to spend his life in the store. He had won his robotic valet, Pork, and later, his company, Tara Industries, in games of poker. By remortgaging the office building and borrowing money from his brothers, he had bought enough robots to rebuild the burnt-out factory at Tara Industries. While not an educated man, Gerald's charm had enabled him to be on good terms with most of his business acquaintances, except the "uneducated trash" Slatterys.
Aged just fifteen, Ellen had moved with Gerald to the space station Georgia to become the C.T.O. of Tara Industries. She had quickly grown into an efficient manager with the company and the best-loved technololgy consultant on the station. Her life was hard, but she accepted that it was a C.T.O.'s lot to manage the technology side of the business, and the C.E.O.'s to take credit for it.
Ellen was determined that her three daughters should grow up to be great business women, and though she succeeded with her eager-to-please younger daughters, Suellen and Carreen, Scarlett found it hard to be interested in technology. Scarlett's playmates were the poorer children and the family pets, and she liked outdoor activities such as climbing trees and throwing rocks. As she grew older, coached by Ellen and Mammy, she learned the scientific basics such as calculus and physics. Most importantly, she learned to conceal her love of nature with the expected techno babble. She was willing to keep up a pretense of technological advancement because she found that such actions pleased her mother. But Scarlett had inherited Gerald's parents' technophobic nature, and Ellen and Mammy feared that this would preclude her from making a good business woman.
Chapter 4
Pork brings his robotic companion, Dilcey, to Tara Industries. Dilcey thanks Scarlett for persuading Gerald to bring her back so soon, and offers her robot doll, Prissy, to be Scarlett's personal companion robot. Scarlett expects objections from Mammy, who has always occupied this position, but Dilcey points out that Mammy is getting old. Scarlett says she will talk to Ellen about it.
Ellen and Mammy return from trying to help with Emmie Slattery's latest job. The project is dead, but Emmie seems likely to find more work. During the wrap-up meeting, which Ellen leads, Scarlett plots to win Ashley. She suspects that he does not know that she loves him, and plans to tell him at the rave. She expects that he will propose, and that they will return to Earth that afternoon and get married.
That night, Scarlett overhears Ellen telling Gerald to dismiss his Luddite caterer, Jonas Wilkerson, as he is the cause of Emmie Slattery's project's failure.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Not sure why people are discussing if sci-f is a sub genre of fantasy or not, that is just semantics.
The point is that they are different. You know laser weapons, powerfields, starbases, ultra fast vehicles and aliens instead of bearded old men casting spells, orcs, swords, horses and what not. They are clearly different and I would wonder too why the existing sci-fi MMORPGs are basically fantasy MMORPGs with sci-fi skin.
For sure Star Trek is nothing like LOTR so why must sci-fi MMORPGs be so much like fantasy MMORPGs?
I guess the easy answer is because it is dificult to create a game where you have weapons with 1000 metre range and starbases that can destroy planets or ships the size of cities. *shrug*
There were really only three things that the OP complained about though from "fantasy" - the inclusion of common fantasy races, melee weapons being better than ranged weapons, and the inclusion of magic. Yes, I know - Warhammer 40K... but...
...but, they fit WH40K.
If they do not fit the game, they should not be there. If they do, they should.
The OP simply wants a game where it displays the technological advances in the game that should be there without those common "fantasy" elements. It is not really that tall of an order, and it is kind of surprising it has not been done to that extent.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Virusdancer, didn't you just show that having a robot or a spaceship doesn't make a story SF? There are futuristic trappings that a story can have, but if the science doesn't make a difference, then they are just trappings.
*spoilers* I recently read a military SF series by Elizebeth Moon, Vatta's War. Set far in the future, it has one scientific change that underpins the whole story: There's a corporation that controls all faster than light communication through large immobile installations. Someone comes up with a small point to point communicator (ie an ansible), and that changes society, military tactics and loads of other things. Without that discovery, the novel just doesn't work. Now, you could have exchanged the ansible for a technique or mental exercise that allowed some sort of interstellar telepathy. That could qualify as SF. But if faeries suddenly showed up and said, 'We can do that with with faerie dust!' you are not talking SF.
Lots of films do this today: They have the trappings of futurism, but their science is awful. That blow-up-the-asteroid Bruce Willis movie, the 'bad neutrinos' of 2012, the Biplane behavior of Star Wars spacecraft: These are all just excuses to do some explosions or action.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Virusdancer, didn't you just show that having a robot or a spaceship doesn't make a story SF? There are futuristic trappings that a story can have, but if the science doesn't make a difference, then they are just trappings.
I only did the first four chapters of it. Most of that is just setup. One of the key themes of Gone With The Wind is Survival. You could easily make GWTW into a Sci-Fi movie, with more work and changes - you could keep the overall stories that place in the novel and even make it Hard Sci-Fi.
*spoilers* I recently read a military SF series by Elizebeth Moon, Vatta's War. Set far in the future, it has one scientific change that underpins the whole story: There's a corporation that controls all faster than light communication through large immobile installations. Someone comes up with a small point to point communicator (ie an ansible), and that changes society, military tactics and loads of other things. Without that discovery, the novel just doesn't work. Now, you could have exchanged the ansible for a technique or mental exercise that allowed some sort of interstellar telepathy. That could qualify as SF. But if faeries suddenly showed up and said, 'We can do that with with faerie dust!' you are not talking SF.
So did Moon give credit to BattleTech for that? That basically describes ComStar...then the Successor States developed black box technology.
Lots of films do this today: They have the trappings of futurism, but their science is awful. That blow-up-the-asteroid Bruce Willis movie, the 'bad neutrinos' of 2012, the Biplane behavior of Star Wars spacecraft: These are all just excuses to do some explosions or action.
Which falls into the category of Soft Sci-Fi, where the science is a little light. It is still Sci-Fi.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Not sure why people are discussing if sci-f is a sub genre of fantasy or not, that is just semantics.
The point is that they are different. You know laser weapons, powerfields, starbases, ultra fast vehicles and aliens instead of bearded old men casting spells, orcs, swords, horses and what not. They are clearly different and I would wonder too why the existing sci-fi MMORPGs are basically fantasy MMORPGs with sci-fi skin.
For sure Star Trek is nothing like LOTR so why must sci-fi MMORPGs be so much like fantasy MMORPGs?
I guess the easy answer is because it is dificult to create a game where you have weapons with 1000 metre range and starbases that can destroy planets or ships the size of cities. *shrug*
There were really only three things that the OP complained about though from "fantasy" - the inclusion of common fantasy races, melee weapons being better than ranged weapons, and the inclusion of magic. Yes, I know - Warhammer 40K... but...
...but, they fit WH40K.
If they do not fit the game, they should not be there. If they do, they should.
The OP simply wants a game where it displays the technological advances in the game that should be there without those common "fantasy" elements. It is not really that tall of an order, and it is kind of surprising it has not been done to that extent.
I'd have to agree about the common fantasy race thing. Lack of imagination or nerve on the developers part. (or a bad joke carried too far, ie WH40K) Although, having just different sized/type humans make things easier on the modellers. For SW:TOR, their insistance on full voicing has tied them to produce only basic speaking races. And magic as magick: You can have a psionic power background in a futuristic setting. Mass Effect used that. It still has to have parameters to its power, and you can't be going summoning classic horned demons with it.
Melee weapons are still as good as they ever were, they just have problems with range scaling. If the game doesn't allow for that, it skews the logic. Now I have read lots of Iraq after-engaement reports, and one of the things that came up unexpectedly was the number of times soldiers were using pistols in combat. This was unexpected, but so many engagements were inside buildings, in stairwells, in cramped alleyways, that the superior handling of the pistol gave it a serious advantage over the slower moving, larger weapons. I also read an account of someone who took out upwards of ten attackers -- with his knife. The situation was just right for it (lots of smoke and fire) and he did know how to use it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Lots of films do this today: They have the trappings of futurism, but their science is awful. That blow-up-the-asteroid Bruce Willis movie, the 'bad neutrinos' of 2012, the Biplane behavior of Star Wars spacecraft: These are all just excuses to do some explosions or action.
Which falls into the category of Soft Sci-Fi, where the science is a little light. It is still Sci-Fi.
You are mighty leniant, if you consider that 'light'. I still think you conflate the trappings of SF with the core structure of SF.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Lots of films do this today: They have the trappings of futurism, but their science is awful. That blow-up-the-asteroid Bruce Willis movie, the 'bad neutrinos' of 2012, the Biplane behavior of Star Wars spacecraft: These are all just excuses to do some explosions or action.
Which falls into the category of Soft Sci-Fi, where the science is a little light. It is still Sci-Fi.
You are mighty leniant, if you consider that 'light'. I still think you conflate the trappings of SF with the core structure of SF.
They were light on the science of how it would be possible for a crew of oil rig guys actually to carry off what they did - but the premise of what they did was not light. We are bombarded constantly by smaller stellar fragments. It is only the larger items that could bring about an extinction event (though surprisingly small all things considered). So the concept of breaking up the asteroid is plausible. Needing to drill to a certain depth to cause the necessary fragmentation again is plausible. Did they ignore things that push that envelope? Yes, they did. It is unrealistic to believe that they would have been able to compete the training, etc, etc. Issues regarding the revolution, other debris, etc, etc. Yet at the core, it was all pretty solid and simple.
With 2012, they went with the wrong particle. Had they gone with a myriad of other particles...they could have wreaked havoc on the planet. The science is there. They just used the wrong science.
As for the behavior of the X-Wing fighters in Star Wars...they are not just spacecraft. They are also atmospheric craft.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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Change the robot to a group of constructs. Basically, fantasy robots created to serve.
Constructs are tools. Construct gain sentience. Conflict occurs and moral dilemmas arise.
This is fantasy. I Robot is now fantasy.
Edit: This is of course ridiculous. I Robot is science fiction. Star Wars is science fiction.
I was going to go with the "I, Woman" piece dealing with the 14th Amendment and Women's Sufferage myself for that one. Could also do a "I, American" one if you wanted something more contemporary - dealing with a naturalized Mexican immigrant seeking recognition of his citizenship in the State of Arizona...
...it is not about the story. It is about the elements - setting being a key aspect of that even though it is being dismissed for some odd reason.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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Futuristic technology that does not exist yet, plausible or not - is in essence magic.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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I"m not dismissing setting. But the setting does not make the genre. Because "again" take gone with the wind and add all the futuristic acoutrements and it's not science fiction.
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That would be the story if the title was perhaps "He, Robot"... but it is "I, Robot". The story is about the robot being more. It is a human story.
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Grasping at straws will get us no where. Magic isn't plausible, it isn't implausible, it's impossible.
Futuristic technology that does not exist yet is implausible, but not impossible.
Now if the Jedi were using some device to do the things they do then we could go the implausible route. But they aren't using technology to do these things, they are using some mystic unseen force that connects all things lol.
very good point and I agree, it is a "human" story. But it's important to remember that whether it is fantasy or sci-fi or "Watership Down" that they are all, in the end, a human story.
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I would ask that you consider this: http://www.novelguide.com/gonewiththewind/themeanalysis.html
Perhaps this then, considered one of the top Sci-Fi books: http://www.novelguide.com/fahrenheit451/themeanalysis.html
Could Gone With The Wind be written as Sci-Fi? Yes.
Could Fahrenheit 451 be written as something other than Sci-Fi? Yes.
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They are not using a mystic force. They are using a biological force. Is there a cult surrounding this technology? Yes. It does not make the underlying principle magic.
ComStar from the BattleTech universe is a well known religious order...technological order. Oh wait, they are a technological order steeped in mysticism.
How many people working in IT might offer up a prayer before the launch of a new project so that nothing goes wrong? Does that make it mystical?
In regard to things being plausible, before the invention of the wheel - were things such as automobiles plausible?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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I guess I actually have to SHOW you what the force is since you refuse to read about it on your own. I already included this in a previous post in this thread, but here you go anyway. The force is not based on "magic." It's based on a theoretical attraction between symbionts that exist within the cells of all other living things. It's not considered "magic."
Midi-chlorians (also spelled "midi-clorians" or "midichlorians") are a microorganism in the fictional Star Wars galaxy, first mentioned in The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.[6] They are symbionts with all other living things and without them life could not exist. The Jedi have learned how to listen to and coordinate the midi-chlorians. While every living being thus has a connection to the Force, one must have a high enough concentration of midi-chlorians in one's cells in order to be a Jedi or aSith.[7][8]
Creator George Lucas says that the midi-chlorians are based on the endosymbiotic theory.[9]
Yes, yes, people got tired of the whole "Jedi are Wizards" thing so they tried to explain why they could use magic. It doesn't change much though lol.
"I got my super powers from Biology and not magic so that makes me part of Science Fiction" lol.
But in any case, I'm stepping out of this debate lol. Call your sword wielding wizards science fiction if you want lol.
But again that comes back to my argument that science fiction is one that incorporates "science" or the "future plausible" or something outlandish that "might" be possible, as a part of the story. I say future plausible (as my own coined term but can't think of a better one at the moment) becasue I would also say that invasion of the body snatchers is science fiction. Of course, the chance that there are pod like creatures waiting to land on earth and start taking over is a bit far fetched but who knows what alien life "might' be out there.
There is of course some suspension of disbelief. Journey to the center of the earth is an adventure story but many seem to say that Jules Verne was an early science fiction writer. It's hard to ignore 20,000 leagues under the sea and not think of the great submarine allowing the characters to discover all sorts of fantastial worlds. But these worlds are based on what has gone before (if memory serves). Dinosaurs did exiset and the idea is that there is a place where they still exist. We do know there are giant squid of course.
While I think this over I will include this link as it supports my argument but I am not presenting it as anything definitive or to try to be antying other than something interesting to mull over.
http://thetorchonline.com/2009/04/20/what-the-hell-is-star-wars-anyway-science-fiction-or-fantasy/
oh here's another
http://www.squaremans.com/?p=63
But again, just more opinions. Wish I could see what lucas had to say.
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Eh...
There is a lot of sci-fi out there that includes religious experiences and things happening without a noticeable, explainable reason. Look at Frank Herbert's Dune. That is sci-fi. It has things that can not be explained by science.
Even if the force was not explained biologically, it would still have a place in a science fiction novel if the author chose to have it there.
We can't explain gravity except through observation. Who is to say there can't be a force similar to the law of gravity that everyone must accept as a law based purely on observation?
It just doesn't take the sci-fi out of Star Wars. At all.
To be honest regardless of how one explains the force, I don't really believe it makes or breaks the sci-fi definition.
I can easily see a science ficiton story incorporating "the force" as a mystical energy which of course would allow the characters to struggle with what is a perceived scientific reality in conjunction with good old fashioined faith.
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Right, I agree. That was basically my point in addressing him. Having a mystical force like that would not throw it into the fantasy genre.
Either way, I think I'm finally done with this. I'm sure that this argument has gone on since the beginning of sci-fi and fantasy about all kinds of alternate realities presented. I will just say this.
Star wars is, according to almost everyone, part of the sci-fi genre. To interpret it differently is up to each person and stands outside of popular belief. It doesn't mean that popular belief is right or wrong. It just means that people have come to accept Star Wars as being part of the Sci-fi genre for a long time.
To be honest, I am glad of this debate.
It's better than "this game sucks, this game doesn't suck", etc.
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I don't think anyone I've talked to though Avatar was anything but a sci-fi movie. I mean, if you really thought you would see something else when you saw a teasor or had a co-worker say go see it, I highly doubt that would say its an anything but.
Back to the topic, a couple games have been mentioned. Neocron and Fallen Earth I would say are about as non-fantasy as you can get. How about Planetside?
What your complaining about "range" is really kinda pointless, its instituted for most games to reduce server lag and such. Galaxies was(if not still) instituted range penalities and bonuses on weapons. Really, a game isn't got to replicate real-life with our current technologies to an exact "T"
To each his own really in the case of determining what genre something is. Sure a Lightsabre and the force could be seen as magic. But on the lore, it isn't magic, its the force. Hell even Han Solo says "don't give me the mystical force crap" or something fo the sort in A New Hope.
Can we say something is either, multiple, or whatever? Sure. It seems your expecting something insanely great to come out for an MMO. Maybe we will get a MechWarrior MMO? MMOs relate to killing hundreds of thousands of creatures, people, etc defies logical in every sense of the word. I'm sorry, but if you see me slaughtering your buddy 10 feet away, your not going to have the whole village of "insert fantasy, alien type, etc" and not come bash my skull in. Games are meant to suspend belief in order to make them playable, and if you can't suspend that, then MMOs of all games are not for you in the least.
You mention games such as Tabula Rasa and others that institute changes to the physical form to make something appear more logical. Have you seen modern technology? Do you know where or technology that can manipulate the human body in the next 50 will be?
Not sure why people are discussing if sci-f is a sub genre of fantasy or not, that is just semantics.
The point is that they are different. You know laser weapons, powerfields, starbases, ultra fast vehicles and aliens instead of bearded old men casting spells, orcs, swords, horses and what not. They are clearly different and I would wonder too why the existing sci-fi MMORPGs are basically fantasy MMORPGs with sci-fi skin.
For sure Star Trek is nothing like LOTR so why must sci-fi MMORPGs be so much like fantasy MMORPGs?
I guess the easy answer is because it is dificult to create a game where you have weapons with 1000 metre range and starbases that can destroy planets or ships the size of cities. *shrug*
My gaming blog
Taking liberal license with http://www.novelguide.com/gonewiththewind/novelsummary.html
Chapter 1
The novel opens aboard the space station Georgia in April 2261 at Tara Industries, the nanoprocessor plant owned by the O'Hara family. Scarlett O'Hara, a striking young woman of sixteen, is sitting in the breakroom of the warehouse with the Tarleton twins, Stuart and Brent. The nineteen-year-old Tarleton twins have just been expelled from the U.N. Space Academy, and their elder brothers, Tom and Boyd, have also left in solidarity with them. The twins discuss the prospect of civil war between the Consortium of space-based industrial corporations that favor the use of robotics and the "Luddites" - the political party that has taken power back on Earth which favors a return to basic humanistic endeavors and shunning technology. The Consortium's attorneys had filed a notice of intent to separate from the Earth's governments in February 2261.
Scarlett is bored by talk of war, and changes the subject, asking the twins about the rave at the Wilkes' nightclub, Twelve Stars, the next day. The twins tell Scarlett that Ashley Wilkes, the son of the owner of Twelve Stars, will announce his engagement to his cousin, Melanie Hamilton. Scarlett is shocked, as she had wanted Ashley for herself. She does not admit this to the twins, however, and they are baffled by her sudden quietness. They obtain her promise to go with them to the rave and to dance with them.
After they leave Tara Industries, the Tarleton brothers speculate about possible explanations for Scarlett's change in mood. They fail to find an answer and ask their robotic groom, Jeems, his opinion. Jeems points out that Scarlett went quiet at the news of Ashley's engagement.
Chapter 2
Scarlett is left in the breakroom, feeling miserable. She cannot believe that Ashley could love "a mousy little person like Melanie." She thinks that he really loves her, Scarlett. Scarlett hides her feelings from Mammy - the robot who has always been her nanny and before that, her mother Ellen's - as Mammy would tell Ellen.
Scarlett knows that her father, Gerald, took his grav limo over to the Twelve Stars nightclub to retrieve the robot named Dilcey, the companion of his robotic valet, Pork. He had loaned Dilcey to Twelve Stars while work was being done on one of their robots. Scarlett plans to find out from Gerald whether the twins' story is true. She runs to his office to meet him on his return.
Scarlett watches Gerald walk towards his office with a drink in hand. Scarlett sighs, because he recently had been drinking too much and promised Ellen, his wife, that he would never drink again. Startled that he has been seen, Gerald asks Scarlett if she is going to tell Ellen, but Scarlett insists that she will keep his secret. Gerald tells her that he has brought Dilcey and her robot doll, Prissy. Scarlett casually asks if Ashley was there. Gerald instantly realizes that Scarlett is romantically interested in him. He confirms that Ashley is to marry Melanie, and advises Scarlett to forget about him, as he would not make her happy. He says that Ashley is too interested in books and poetry, and that the Wilkes are "queer folk, and it's best that they marry their cousins and keep their queerness to themselves." He adds that though Ashley is good at the traditional men's pastimes of high speed grav racing and playing poker, his heart is not in them. He tells his daughter, "Technology is the only thing in the world that amounts to anything."
As they go into the office, they meet Ellen carrying her A.I. powered netbook, with Mammy following. They are going to Slattery Designs, where the uncertified Emmie Slattery is having trouble with the code for a new website that is not expected to launch on time. Ellen intends to help with the server-side coding. Gerald and Mammy both rail against the Slatterys, poor web designers with offices on the first floor, as "uneducated trash" undeserving of Ellen's help.
Scarlett muses on how her brash father managed to marry a refined aristocrat like her mother.
Chapter 3
The chapter begins by telling Ellen's story. She had come from a French aristocratic family, the Robillards, from Savannah. In spite of Ellen's calm, gentle manner, she was always obeyed at Tara Industries, whereas Gerald's blustering was ignored: "There was a steely quality under her stately gentleness that awed the whole office staff." When Ellen was fifteen, she had been passionately in love with her cousin, Philippe Robillard. Her family had driven him away and he had died in a nightclub brawl. Heartbroken, Ellen had decided to leave the company to get away from reminders of Philippe, and, to the mystification of her family and the high society in which she moved, accepted a proposal of marriage from a low-born but kindly Irishman - Gerald.
Gerald had come to the space station from Ireland at the age of twenty-one. Gerald's family was poor and Luddites, and for years had actively opposed the advancement of A.I. and robotics. Gerald had killed a corporate landlord's rent agent and had left Ireland with a price on his head. He had gone to work at the space station store belonging to his brothers, James and Andrew, who were already living on Georgia. Gerald was ambitious, and had not wanted to spend his life in the store. He had won his robotic valet, Pork, and later, his company, Tara Industries, in games of poker. By remortgaging the office building and borrowing money from his brothers, he had bought enough robots to rebuild the burnt-out factory at Tara Industries. While not an educated man, Gerald's charm had enabled him to be on good terms with most of his business acquaintances, except the "uneducated trash" Slatterys.
Aged just fifteen, Ellen had moved with Gerald to the space station Georgia to become the C.T.O. of Tara Industries. She had quickly grown into an efficient manager with the company and the best-loved technololgy consultant on the station. Her life was hard, but she accepted that it was a C.T.O.'s lot to manage the technology side of the business, and the C.E.O.'s to take credit for it.
Ellen was determined that her three daughters should grow up to be great business women, and though she succeeded with her eager-to-please younger daughters, Suellen and Carreen, Scarlett found it hard to be interested in technology. Scarlett's playmates were the poorer children and the family pets, and she liked outdoor activities such as climbing trees and throwing rocks. As she grew older, coached by Ellen and Mammy, she learned the scientific basics such as calculus and physics. Most importantly, she learned to conceal her love of nature with the expected techno babble. She was willing to keep up a pretense of technological advancement because she found that such actions pleased her mother. But Scarlett had inherited Gerald's parents' technophobic nature, and Ellen and Mammy feared that this would preclude her from making a good business woman.
Chapter 4
Pork brings his robotic companion, Dilcey, to Tara Industries. Dilcey thanks Scarlett for persuading Gerald to bring her back so soon, and offers her robot doll, Prissy, to be Scarlett's personal companion robot. Scarlett expects objections from Mammy, who has always occupied this position, but Dilcey points out that Mammy is getting old. Scarlett says she will talk to Ellen about it.
Ellen and Mammy return from trying to help with Emmie Slattery's latest job. The project is dead, but Emmie seems likely to find more work. During the wrap-up meeting, which Ellen leads, Scarlett plots to win Ashley. She suspects that he does not know that she loves him, and plans to tell him at the rave. She expects that he will propose, and that they will return to Earth that afternoon and get married.
That night, Scarlett overhears Ellen telling Gerald to dismiss his Luddite caterer, Jonas Wilkerson, as he is the cause of Emmie Slattery's project's failure.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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There were really only three things that the OP complained about though from "fantasy" - the inclusion of common fantasy races, melee weapons being better than ranged weapons, and the inclusion of magic. Yes, I know - Warhammer 40K... but...
...but, they fit WH40K.
If they do not fit the game, they should not be there. If they do, they should.
The OP simply wants a game where it displays the technological advances in the game that should be there without those common "fantasy" elements. It is not really that tall of an order, and it is kind of surprising it has not been done to that extent.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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Virusdancer, didn't you just show that having a robot or a spaceship doesn't make a story SF? There are futuristic trappings that a story can have, but if the science doesn't make a difference, then they are just trappings.
*spoilers* I recently read a military SF series by Elizebeth Moon, Vatta's War. Set far in the future, it has one scientific change that underpins the whole story: There's a corporation that controls all faster than light communication through large immobile installations. Someone comes up with a small point to point communicator (ie an ansible), and that changes society, military tactics and loads of other things. Without that discovery, the novel just doesn't work. Now, you could have exchanged the ansible for a technique or mental exercise that allowed some sort of interstellar telepathy. That could qualify as SF. But if faeries suddenly showed up and said, 'We can do that with with faerie dust!' you are not talking SF.
Lots of films do this today: They have the trappings of futurism, but their science is awful. That blow-up-the-asteroid Bruce Willis movie, the 'bad neutrinos' of 2012, the Biplane behavior of Star Wars spacecraft: These are all just excuses to do some explosions or action.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I'd have to agree about the common fantasy race thing. Lack of imagination or nerve on the developers part. (or a bad joke carried too far, ie WH40K) Although, having just different sized/type humans make things easier on the modellers. For SW:TOR, their insistance on full voicing has tied them to produce only basic speaking races. And magic as magick: You can have a psionic power background in a futuristic setting. Mass Effect used that. It still has to have parameters to its power, and you can't be going summoning classic horned demons with it.
Melee weapons are still as good as they ever were, they just have problems with range scaling. If the game doesn't allow for that, it skews the logic. Now I have read lots of Iraq after-engaement reports, and one of the things that came up unexpectedly was the number of times soldiers were using pistols in combat. This was unexpected, but so many engagements were inside buildings, in stairwells, in cramped alleyways, that the superior handling of the pistol gave it a serious advantage over the slower moving, larger weapons. I also read an account of someone who took out upwards of ten attackers -- with his knife. The situation was just right for it (lots of smoke and fire) and he did know how to use it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You are mighty leniant, if you consider that 'light'. I still think you conflate the trappings of SF with the core structure of SF.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
They were light on the science of how it would be possible for a crew of oil rig guys actually to carry off what they did - but the premise of what they did was not light. We are bombarded constantly by smaller stellar fragments. It is only the larger items that could bring about an extinction event (though surprisingly small all things considered). So the concept of breaking up the asteroid is plausible. Needing to drill to a certain depth to cause the necessary fragmentation again is plausible. Did they ignore things that push that envelope? Yes, they did. It is unrealistic to believe that they would have been able to compete the training, etc, etc. Issues regarding the revolution, other debris, etc, etc. Yet at the core, it was all pretty solid and simple.
With 2012, they went with the wrong particle. Had they gone with a myriad of other particles...they could have wreaked havoc on the planet. The science is there. They just used the wrong science.
As for the behavior of the X-Wing fighters in Star Wars...they are not just spacecraft. They are also atmospheric craft.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%