VirusDancer, please stop posting. This thread wasn't meant you for to off-topic-grand-stand literary pedantics. The topic of this thread is that all MMOs, regardless of setting, use mechanics explicitly derived from fantasy (as in swords and elves and magic and shit) MMO predecessors and as consequence science fictions MMOs have failed hard (because they aren't truly derived from science fiction).
I politely reminded everyone in page 2 what the topic of this thread was. You ignored it.
I've reported you for thread hijacking.
If you wanna keep derailing the shit out of this thread I ask that you please create a thread in Off Topic. Thanks.
Agreed all non space based MMO'S [tries not to look at avatar bar] are largly just reskinned fantasy games with some treaking to make it more Sci-fi.
You see wizzards in all of them even a certain space based one i will not mention
You have tanks in All of them......in fact every main fantasy class is there.
One idea that may help is to have a skill system where if you want to be a tank specalist learn how to use armour and add implanted muscle bulk and replace your bones with something that will bend not shatter under pressure and spring right back into shape.
Of course its very hard not to think in the trodden paths of classes and some form of magic with a sci-fi trist as those concepts cover a broad range of methods of gaming.
So perhaps we need to focus on the magic and ban it. NO telpaths no mutant powers [keep that with Xmen pls] no hyper advanced alien gloves that can do telekenesis via some fring scientific theory.
Instead look at what today has and possable within a 100 year science and non fring theory.
Such as....
Body enhancments like the previously mentiond willow like bones.
An internal drug resivour that uses nanotech to fabricate pre chosen designer drugs via purchased nanites and program which could be used to augament healing or boost muscle strength to increase running speed.
Nanodarts to shoot from your fingers.
And the obviouse...Hacking....Considering you will have computers in your body doing stuff hope you dont get hacked and have them switched off mid battle....pictures some boosted cyborg suddenly doing an impression of a statue while the in mid stride while the weedy looking hacker walks up to him to teabag him before attaching a detanator on his head.
Point is a decent sci fi with skills and classes can be done with some imagination!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Well, I think part of the problem is that a lot of what players think if as "sci-fi" is most likely fantasy.
Star Wars is not sci-fi, it's a fantasy.
Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, etc. Fantasy
"Sci-Fi" is supposed to deal with man's relationship with technology and how it effects them. Or man's relationship with technology or space and the possibility of what that brings.
I-Robot (movie or book pick your poison) is science fiction, The Last Man on Earth (which others probably know as "I am Legend") is Science Fiction. Foundation Series is Science Fiction. West World and Logan's Run are Science Fiction.
John Carter of Mars is NOT science fiction.
So having said that, the lure of fantasy is strong because it allows for things that could never be as opposed to things that very well could be. Whether it takes place in space or in some sort of quasi-medieval world is something else.
There is a romanticism with fantasy whereas science fiction seems to be a bit colder, a bit more of a dash of possible reality.
You cannot offer up a favored subgenre of Sci-Fi as the definition of Sci-Fi so as to exclude the other subgenres. It does not work that way.
Not sure what you are talking about so I'll put it this way,
John Carter of Mars, Star Wars, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers = "not sci fi"
I am Legend (last man on earth), I-Robot, foundation series, Logan's Run, West World = Sci-fi.
I'm not quite sure what sub-genre you are talking about?
oh, and this which I stated: "Sci-Fi" is supposed to deal with man's relationship with technology and how it effects them. Or man's relationship with technology or space and the possibility of what that brings.
To YOU, Star Wars and Buck rogers are not sci fi. to many, many other people, they are sci-fi.
And you can decide that you want sci fi to be all about dealing with man's relationship blah blah blah
But that doesn't make it the case, it doesn't make it true and universally accepted.
The FACT is, people interpret them differently.
Ok, now I'm clearer as to the objections, however these aren't "my" definitions, they are "the" definitions.
Science ficiton IS about man's relationship to science and what science brings.
Star Wars takes place in space but put it on land and give everyone actual swords and nothiing really changes.
West World or I-Robot is about man's relationship to technology.
I would then say that just because you and others want science fiction to be about something else doesn't mean that it's so subjective.
It's just not. Science Fiction has always been about man's relationship to technology. Where it takes place is immaterial.
This reminds me of the countless threads about what an RPG is (or any other industry standard term, for that matter), where people will claim the dictionary/industry definition is wrong because it doesn't match what they want the definition to be.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You have tanks in All of them......in fact every main fantasy class is there.
By that definition, Madden NFL is fantasy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
VirusDancer, please stop posting. This thread wasn't meant you for to off-topic-grand-stand literary pedantics. The topic of this thread is that all MMOs, regardless of setting, use mechanics explicitly derived from fantasy (as in swords and elves and magic and shit) MMO predecessors and as consequence science fictions MMOs have failed hard (because they aren't truly derived from science fiction).
I politely reminded everyone in page 2 what the topic of this thread was. You ignored it.
I've reported you for thread hijacking.
If you wanna keep derailing the shit out of this thread I ask that you please create a thread in Off Topic. Thanks.
Agreed all non space based MMO'S [tries not to look at avatar bar] are largly just reskinned fantasy games with some treaking to make it more Sci-fi.
You see wizzards in all of them even a certain space based one i will not mention
You have tanks in All of them......in fact every main fantasy class is there.
One idea that may help is to have a skill system where if you want to be a tank specalist learn how to use armour and add implanted muscle bulk and replace your bones with something that will bend not shatter under pressure and spring right back into shape.
Of course its very hard not to think in the trodden paths of classes and some form of magic with a sci-fi trist as those concepts cover a broad range of methods of gaming.
So perhaps we need to focus on the magic and ban it. NO telpaths no mutant powers [keep that with Xmen pls] no hyper advanced alien gloves that can do telekenesis via some fring scientific theory.
Instead look at what today has and possable within a 100 year science and non fring theory.
Such as....
Body enhancments like the previously mentiond willow like bones.
An internal drug resivour that uses nanotech to fabricate pre chosen designer drugs via purchased nanites and program which could be used to augament healing or boost muscle strength to increase running speed.
Nanodarts to shoot from your fingers.
And the obviouse...Hacking....Considering you will have computers in your body doing stuff hope you dont get hacked and have them switched off mid battle....pictures some boosted cyborg suddenly doing an impression of a statue while the in mid stride while the weedy looking hacker walks up to him to teabag him before attaching a detanator on his head.
Point is a decent sci fi with skills and classes can be done with some imagination!
It could also just be like Mass Effect 2 where there is a shield. Shield get's bombarded, loses efficacy and suddenly the hits are more lethal.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It sounds like he doesn't want sci-fi, he wants modern, cyberpunk, or post-modern (but not futuristic) "sci-fi".
I don't get it, because ALL OF IT is fantasy of some form.
Sounds like he just wants cyberpunk or post-modern fantasy.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Excellent post OP. But your question should have been ‘will SF ever shed its fantasy derived shackles’?
This problem is found even in SF literature, but is common in SF films and games. Sometimes this is a good thing, it allows SF to address philosophical questions. Solaris, even more so in the original film did this. But more often fantasy seems to be added on as a story muguffin or part of the morality tale, such as happened in Avatar.
In addition to this all new MMO’s must be Wowlike to get serious investment. If SWG had drawn in eight million players we would be complaining about the lack of fantasy MMO’s and asking why everything has to be Sci-Fi.
Soct is right in that developers copy the content that they percieve to be the cash cow at the moment. And at this particular moment that just happens to be WOW, so the fantasy theme is in ascension. Although, if SWTOR is successful, it might push things more towards Sci-Fi, but let's all be honest about something, SWTOR is still very much WOW in a different skin. So, in the end, I don't think we'll see Sci-Fi take the lead until we get a successful (not necessarily a wow-killer) non-WOW styled MMO.
Comments
Agreed all non space based MMO'S [tries not to look at avatar bar] are largly just reskinned fantasy games with some treaking to make it more Sci-fi.
You see wizzards in all of them even a certain space based one i will not mention
You have tanks in All of them......in fact every main fantasy class is there.
One idea that may help is to have a skill system where if you want to be a tank specalist learn how to use armour and add implanted muscle bulk and replace your bones with something that will bend not shatter under pressure and spring right back into shape.
Of course its very hard not to think in the trodden paths of classes and some form of magic with a sci-fi trist as those concepts cover a broad range of methods of gaming.
So perhaps we need to focus on the magic and ban it. NO telpaths no mutant powers [keep that with Xmen pls] no hyper advanced alien gloves that can do telekenesis via some fring scientific theory.
Instead look at what today has and possable within a 100 year science and non fring theory.
Such as....
Body enhancments like the previously mentiond willow like bones.
An internal drug resivour that uses nanotech to fabricate pre chosen designer drugs via purchased nanites and program which could be used to augament healing or boost muscle strength to increase running speed.
Nanodarts to shoot from your fingers.
And the obviouse...Hacking....Considering you will have computers in your body doing stuff hope you dont get hacked and have them switched off mid battle....pictures some boosted cyborg suddenly doing an impression of a statue while the in mid stride while the weedy looking hacker walks up to him to teabag him before attaching a detanator on his head.
Point is a decent sci fi with skills and classes can be done with some imagination!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
This reminds me of the countless threads about what an RPG is (or any other industry standard term, for that matter), where people will claim the dictionary/industry definition is wrong because it doesn't match what they want the definition to be.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
By that definition, Madden NFL is fantasy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It could also just be like Mass Effect 2 where there is a shield. Shield get's bombarded, loses efficacy and suddenly the hits are more lethal.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It sounds like he doesn't want sci-fi, he wants modern, cyberpunk, or post-modern (but not futuristic) "sci-fi".
I don't get it, because ALL OF IT is fantasy of some form.
Sounds like he just wants cyberpunk or post-modern fantasy.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Excellent post OP. But your question should have been ‘will SF ever shed its fantasy derived shackles’?
This problem is found even in SF literature, but is common in SF films and games. Sometimes this is a good thing, it allows SF to address philosophical questions. Solaris, even more so in the original film did this. But more often fantasy seems to be added on as a story muguffin or part of the morality tale, such as happened in Avatar.
In addition to this all new MMO’s must be Wowlike to get serious investment. If SWG had drawn in eight million players we would be complaining about the lack of fantasy MMO’s and asking why everything has to be Sci-Fi.
Soct is right in that developers copy the content that they percieve to be the cash cow at the moment. And at this particular moment that just happens to be WOW, so the fantasy theme is in ascension. Although, if SWTOR is successful, it might push things more towards Sci-Fi, but let's all be honest about something, SWTOR is still very much WOW in a different skin. So, in the end, I don't think we'll see Sci-Fi take the lead until we get a successful (not necessarily a wow-killer) non-WOW styled MMO.