I'm not pissed that there is no deep space exploration, I'm pissed that space combat is something worse than an iPhone app (even Star Wars Trench Run has dogfighting!).
If Bioware remade X-Wing they would have been a contender. Instead SEO beats them to the punch -- and for free!
Going to pre-empt this before it gets crazy. These forums are not for forum PvP, and if you think they are, you'll find out otherwise real quick. Keep the conversation here civil and on-topic.
However you feel about this article or the other users discussing it, it is not necessary to attack anyone in any way to get your point across. If anything, it only weakens your argument.
Terrible writing here... i wish i didnt read it... its just another persons oppinons.... i might as well just go to the forums and read everones complaining jiberish there... even this writer some how contradicted them self in one article... i hope some one saves this article so they can tear it apart after the game is actually released...
Terrible writing here... i wish i didnt read it... its just another persons oppinons.... i might as well just go to the forums and read everones complaining jiberish there... even this writer some how contradicted them self in one article... i hope some one saves this article so they can tear it apart after the game is actually released...
Terrible writing here... i wish i didnt read it... its just another persons oppinons.... i might as well just go to the forums and read everones complaining jiberish there... even this writer some how contradicted them self in one article... i hope some one saves this article so they can tear it apart after the game is actually released...
I don't think there was anything wrong with the writing specifically. As far as composition goes I think it was written fairly well. As for the content, I think it is more true to the truth of perception then many posters on this site are willing to allow. The truth rarely lies at the end of two extremes. Jon set the stage for some great middle ground work.
People following the game with an open mind know what the game is, and what the game isn't. Ideas on success notwithstanding the majority of the article should have people take heed. Although this is a discussion forum, no matter how many times the same people beat that dead horse, it will still remain dead. Once it has been covered lets move on, not pine over it like it will magically change, and thereby so will the focus of discussion. Who are we trying to kid here? Accept what is, or move on.
Good article. Posters always want something the game does not offer, does not make it a bad game. Personally I think Bioware is going to pull this game off. It probably will be a great themepark, if that is the type of game you like.
One note here, let's not stoop to the kids level and use the word 'hater' here, it is entirely inappropriate. Critic is a far better word and fits the context far better.
U know there are soem who have tried to point out that themepark isnt a bad thing. The we want sandbox crowd doesnt listen. They dont care they just want to whine. this article isnt gonna change that.
Look i dont kow what the tunnell shooter looks like and im betting almost no one does. there is almost no footage of it out there. I think they at pc gamer may be the only one to actually see it.
Im gonna give this game a try its 6 months from release theres alot we dont know abou tit. and i for one am just looking forward to playing it.
As ive stated what bioware does best is a story rpg. that is what they are gonna make in an mmorpg. that means the leveling should be fun. Mythiic has done some pretty good pvp in other games so pvp shoud be top notch.
Will this kill wow i sure hope not wow is my mmorpg of chose. But when u have 12 mil subs theres no way some game will kill it.
As for inovation any game that tries to be innovative fails. gw 2 isnt really being innovative making all classes able to heal and there dynamic quest system may seem innovative although rifts may actually be doing it better. But its just another way of questing. Like phasing in wow.
Im not sure what people want for innovation. Maybe before they whine this game isnt innovative they should tell people what kind of innovation they are looking for.
Well I guess this article is a bit better than the STO VS EvE article...
In seriousness though, I'm only really going to comment on one point. I don't know that anyone was really asking for some deep, space exploration game at all. Heck I wouldn't define Jump to Lightspeed as deep space exploration. I do think that the comment that space exploration "wasn't part of the movies" is very, very limited though. There are a lot of Star Wars fans that want to experience the universe BEYOND what we saw in the movies. This limited thinking that everyone wants to be a carbon copy of Han Solo or Luke Skywalker is getting tiresome. There are a lot of people out there who want to make their own, unique and powerful characters in the Star Wars universe. How many people, honestly, watch the movies and think I want to be JUST like Luke? or Anakin? I think the majority want to have their own adventures in that UNIVERSE.
Anyway, I digress. I think anyone with expectations opf a EvE Online kind of space exploration system in ToR may have had unrealistic expectations. But I know that I didn't like a "rail shooter" or "tube shooter" back when I played Rebel Assult 2. I don't care if we jsut have iconic space battles of whatever the crap as our space expereince, but make them zones that you can fly around in. There's a reason that console games went away from the rail shoother appraoch, and I don't think these guys are going to bring it back in style.
Well, I hope the game does great upon launch and if it can compete year 1 against games in their 3-7 year head start cycle, then I think we'll see a lot of great things to come out of this game. Dev's always cannibalize game-changing features, so I'm sure we'll see some pretty popular ones in SWeaTOR (just what I like to call it; rolls off the tongue better), and I hope they use those as a stepping stone to revolutionize the genre even more.
Isn't it in everyone's best interest for a new MMO to succeed? The bigger the audience, the more room for competition.
Originally posted by WhiteLantern Point 1: I concur Point 2: I concur Point 3: I concur Point 4: I concur Point 5: I concur Point 6: I concur Point 7: I concur And as I've said before: It won't live up to anyone's expectations. Because our expectations are unreasonable.
I agree with your response to the article.
As for "It won't live up to anyone's expectations. Because our expectations are unreasonable" to an extent I agree with this and will also add that MMO Publishers are not meeting our (the established MMO Player community) expectations in part because the new MMOs are NOT being designed for us... they are being designed to attract a much larger group of consumers.
Now that I realize this I have lost all hope of EVER seeing a MMO released again that will live up to even a small portion of my expectations... because as I said above the MMOs are being designed for a new kind of MMO Player.
The subculture of the present MMO Players is simply too small and not profitable enough for Investors to take a risk on any longer. The Investors are seeking a much larger group of consumers that are not jaded by past MMO failures and are new to the genre and willing to spend large amounts of cash on the new MMOs. The Investors have made this known to the MMO Publishers and as a result the new projects being created by the MMO Publishers will reflect this shift in consumer focus.
SW:TOR will very much appeal to this newer and larger group of consumers. Most of us will not be pleased with it, but that no longer matters.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I honestly can’t believe how many people are still pissed that there isn’t going to be any space exploration in TOR. I’m sorry guys, I like a good exploration MMO as much as the next guy, but I’m going to have to agree with the guys at Bioware who say that the exploration of empty space just isn’t what the Star Wars IP is all about. I mean, I’m not the biggest Star Wars guy, but I seem to recall most of the travel in Star Wars happening somewhere between getting into the ship and having a chat and the iconic sideways wipe that put the characters on whatever planet it was they were traveling to.
That said, when they did do space, they did it spectacularly in the movies and I’m not sure that a “tube shooter” is really the best way to convey the proper “feel” of the space in Star Wars either. Personally, I think they should have left it out entirely until they had proper time to develop a system somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.
I'll start with this gripe about people expecting it to be a space exploration game.
I have seen hardly any people that are disappointed with the space system specifically because they can't "explore". People are not saying, "WHAT?! I can't explore?!" Framing this gripe in that context makes it seem like you aren't understanding the vast majority of complaints.
I think people would have preferred a more dogfight feel. You know, how Star Wars is. I personally would have liked to see something like Wing Commander. There are various ways they could have implemented a system that ACTUALLY felt like Star Wars. Instead, they are using a tunnel shooter which feels NOTHING like Star Wars. So when they say they've never seen a ship go and mine an asteroid to defend their design decision, I find it silly. After all, in Star Wars, the pilots decided whether or not they turned right or left, didn't they?
I emphatically agree with what is in red.
I agree. They should leave space out of it at release. Make something better and then put it in an expansion.
Star Wars Galaxies didn't had any Space either at launch and no one complained.
SOE added it in a seperate expansion. And eventho caused a lot of performance problems with the ground game when it launched. Jump to Lightspeed is still one of the most awesome expansions ever! I truly loved it! And I know from back then, that many many other did too.
That's why Bioware need to cut the Space part, shelve it and save it for an expansion and do it right!
I agree main points of the article. It is Bioware for petes sake, it will NOT be a sandbox and it WILL BE story driven.
However I dont agree the insinuation that themepark is the best structure of making money in MMORPGs. That is like saying innovation is pointless and what works now is what will be making money.
There is clearly a growing portion of MMORPG gamers (not counting the WoW phenomenon) that are just fed up with themepark games, and they will continue to grow until something happens. This industry is in dire need if innovation and what I have read and seen so far only GW 2 seems to be offering something in that regard.
I am not sure what this article is about to do. First I read nothing new in there. Second, I see it is full of generalizations, like "it is no Sandbox" or "it is no WOW killer". I haven't seen any real debate about this. I have seen lots of people who want certain ELEMENTS of sandboxes and ELEMENTS of open world and space. The number of people really want to change TOR all around into an UO/SWG like sandbox is microscopic. So for whom is this sermon supposed to be?
I just fail to see the target audience here.
Finally. It is Star Wars. People will be passionate about their wishes, like playing SW alien races. Period. They are Star Wars fans and as such they have the right to bemoan that something they love in Star Wars isn't in the next SW MMO.
So again, for whom is this written? What is this article supposed to do? I just fail to see the point.
When potential customers have wishes, want features, like playable aliens or open world or real space, it isn't up to some editor to berate them why their wishes are meaningless. Wishes exist. Yes you can say Bioware won't fulfill them. Great news. But going to us and telling our wishes are not valid or you are tired of hearing them is just... pointless. Products change all the time because customers voice their wishes. A MMO is in constant flux. So why should be not say our wishes and hope at some time something of it is added? It is what customers always do.
It just sounds like the age old brush off "it isn't for you". Well see how good THAT worked in the last 15 MMOs which were launched and fell on their faces because they ignored a larger part of the fanebases wishes.
And personally asking the OP: Don't you ever feel, when you look at SWTOR "Wow, they got 300 million dollars and THIS is ALL?" Not once? I mean sure it looks ok, and some things look even cool. But don't you ever think that with SUCH a huge investment a MMORPG (about STAR WARS!) could and should be... more than just half baked stuff in so many areas? More that just "more of the same"? Well at least I think a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking wouldn't be so much to expect.
If I take what the OP writes, it essentially says developers are doing what they like, we don't need to discuss, because it doesn't make a difference. Might I ask you: Why then are you hosting a MMO forum? So that we blindly praise every decision made by the great game devs? I am sorry if I mistook the purpose of MMO forums so much.
I made this "bold", because I really want an answer to this.
To me it all reads like one big "critics STFU" article. I don't feel well with the overall belittlement towards critics, like we all were silly or trolls.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Very nice article but I thought the point made about fans of the game is simply a cop out to make trolls feel better, I don't think I could handle following another site similar to this one so I only know this one's forums but in general those of us who could be called fans of the game spend massive amounts of time simply telling trolls they simply don't know what they are claiming to know or that it is a non issue for us.
I've not seen tons of people praising the "on rails" build of space or labeling Bioware as genius for anything they claim to want to try with the game, I've not even seen many posts created exclusively to glorify anything known about what they plan to do. Having said that I've seen posts created to criticize BW for the on rails addition of space (and trolls never give credit to the fact that it will launch with space while SWG took years to do it), the cost of development, the reliance on story, and my personal favorite the context of devs interviews, the size of the worlds (which often were commented on before there was even any info about world size and regardless of the fact that BW has said the various worlds they have will be rather large).
I do though regardless of what you say hold out hope that TOR is a "game changer" in the only way that truly matters, to force devs to pay attention to polish,quality, and detail which they have ignored since I began playing mmo's with SWG.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Why do you assume that the people who are discussing the relative merits or lack thereof of some of Biowares design decision with SW-TOR are doing it because they have some expectation of pushing Bioware to change those decisions....or even trying to astro-turf the game?
This is a gaming site.... I assume that the people posting here are doing so, in part, because they enjoy the hobby....and enjoy the intellectual excercise of discussing different aspects of that hobby, including opinions about design decisions and game mechanics with other enthusiasts. Really, is it any different then fans on a sports site discussing the relative merits of the Designated Hitter Rule?
Frankly, if the discussion here was limitied to a simple regurgitation of the known mechanics/features of any particular game....rather then a discussion of thier merits.... and "What if's" and so forth...this site would be about as entertaining as watching grass grow.
Note...that is not the same as trolling....which would be posting to simply annoy, frustrate or get a rise out of some-one. I'm sure there is a fair share of that going on surrounding TOR.... but alot of fans and critics alike simply enjoy expressing thier honest opinions and enjoy exploring the basis by which others hold differing viewpoints.
This!
I'm in agreement, for some reason all I kept seeing in this article was Jon calling people trolls because they post in gaming forums their thoughts about what they like/don't like about this game.
What the hell else are these forums for but for PVP between its members?
Oh, I know, to sell advertising revenue, I forgot.
Come on now do you guys really believe what you are saying? There is so much pure trolling going on with this game it isn't even funny, does no one else remember that incident a few weeks back with the open letter to a Bioware employee that was posted here?
And in regards to an earlier comment from Grumpymel you really believe that alot of these people aren't complaining in hopes of getting Bioware to change what they plan to do with the game, of course most of them know that at this point the chances are slim and none but you are fooling yourself if you think these people won't pull a FFXIV on the TOR boards, you know all the chest bumping going on over there with tons of posts of people patting themselves on the back for getting SE to take action on the things they see as a problem with the game?
That's no different than with TOR, certainly I have seen my fair share of critical commentary that didn't rise to the level of trolling but the article makes fairly decent points about the fact that this game has more trolls than any game I can recall pre launch.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
this has to be the best editorial column I have read on this site and one of the better mmo columns in general. Just smashing the delusions the very posters on this forum revel in with a HUGE reality check. Very nice.
Seriously, you can't KNOW if it is going to be good or bad unless you can read the future. I mean that literally, you can not factual know if it is going to be a good or bad release unless you have a super power of precognition.
Some people are just trolls and their argument doesn't DESERVE a debate. Stop acting like every argument is equally valid and firing back with 'oh nice ad hominum attack, not even addressing the fact that this game will destroy the entire video game industry.' Some people on forums are just being lame, and by some I mean A LOT. I don't care how much genuine 'interest' they attach to their opinion/post, if most of it is going to illicit argument by way of ridiculous statements, they're a troll.
this has to be the best editorial column I have read on this site and one of the better mmo columns in general. Just smashing the delusions the very posters on this forum revel in with a HUGE reality check. Very nice.
Seriously, you can't KNOW if it is going to be good or bad unless you can read the future. I mean that literally, you can not factual know if it is going to be a good or bad release unless you have a super power of precognition.
Some people are just trolls and their argument doesn't DESERVE a debate. Stop acting like every argument is equally valid and firing back with 'oh nice ad hominum attack, not even addressing the fact that this game will destroy the entire video game industry.' Some people on forums are just being lame, and by some I mean A LOT. I don't care how much genuine 'interest' they attach to their opinion/post, if most of it is going to illicit argument by way of ridiculous statements, they're a troll.
*facepalm*
The world must be full of trolls for you. It surely is comforting to know to be on the good side now that you guys have the Hierophant's blessing to call all critics trolls.
What an accomlishment.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Well, we can add MMOs to the topics of things you can't ahve a conversation with in "polite company". Used to be just politics and religion, but opinion is just so divisive out there and everyone thinks their ideas are the only right ideas that it's a shame. Fact is, most people out there have different ideas of fun. Some think it's fun to play strictly PvE, some thing it's fun to strictyl play PvP, some think it's fun to camp spawn points, some think it's fun to craft all day long. No one will ever agree on what makes the perfect MMO, because the perfect MMO cannot exist anymore.
Bioware is doing what they do best and if you want space exploration, play EVE. If you want a sandbox, play any of the myriad of MMOs already on the market. If you want PvP only, play Lineage or Aion or the many other games out there. It is no use whining on a forum and badmouthing a game you'll likely never play. Me, I am still undecided if I would play SWTOR. I don't like the no sandbox idea and crafting will probably be lame, but I like the questing and storyline ideas. Will it be a good game? I hope so, but I really didn't like the last offerings from Bioware I played. Well, I did like aspects of Mass Effect, but I really didn't like Dragon Age. So maybe I'll hate the game, maybe I'll like it, but I won't know until I play for 30 days, now will I?
just replace SWTOR by GW2, RIFT and TERA and you got 3 more articles for the next month. and everytime it is the ultimate truth: we know, that we know nothing.
I don't understand why the people here who are complaining about opinions and speculation even come to this site. If you're so thin-skinned to let others offend you by meaningless opinions and speculations about a game, then do us, and yourself, a favor by never coming back. The opinions and speculations will never end. They've existed since this site came online. Get over it.
Calling people trolls, because they disagree with your perceived direction of the game does not mean you took the moral high road.
this has to be the best editorial column I have read on this site and one of the better mmo columns in general. Just smashing the delusions the very posters on this forum revel in with a HUGE reality check. Very nice.
Seriously, you can't KNOW if it is going to be good or bad unless you can read the future. I mean that literally, you can not factual know if it is going to be a good or bad release unless you have a super power of precognition.
Some people are just trolls and their argument doesn't DESERVE a debate. Stop acting like every argument is equally valid and firing back with 'oh nice ad hominum attack, not even addressing the fact that this game will destroy the entire video game industry.' Some people on forums are just being lame, and by some I mean A LOT. I don't care how much genuine 'interest' they attach to their opinion/post, if most of it is going to illicit argument by way of ridiculous statements, they're a troll.
*facepalm*
The world must be full of trolls for you. It surely is comforting to know to be on the good side.
Come on Dude, don't try and make this some philisophical debate. You know very well what people mean by trolling or being a troll, when it comes to a forum debate, for instance. The Bioware devs can show any part of gameplay in TOR and there will still be those in this very forum who will troll a thread by posting what was seen by all, as some lie or go off into some debate how the game will suck because of that, without ever even looking at what was just released and having the actual facts.
You want to know what i believe TOR will be. Just go back to my post on page 5. I think alot of people are just not reading and understanding what Bioware is trying to accomplish. They see the facts yet won't accept them as the truth.
Comments
I'm not pissed that there is no deep space exploration, I'm pissed that space combat is something worse than an iPhone app (even Star Wars Trench Run has dogfighting!).
If Bioware remade X-Wing they would have been a contender. Instead SEO beats them to the punch -- and for free!
Going to pre-empt this before it gets crazy. These forums are not for forum PvP, and if you think they are, you'll find out otherwise real quick. Keep the conversation here civil and on-topic.
However you feel about this article or the other users discussing it, it is not necessary to attack anyone in any way to get your point across. If anything, it only weakens your argument.
With that said, have fun.
Terrible writing here... i wish i didnt read it... its just another persons oppinons.... i might as well just go to the forums and read everones complaining jiberish there... even this writer some how contradicted them self in one article... i hope some one saves this article so they can tear it apart after the game is actually released...
You think THAT was jibberish? You should read the column I wrote before this: http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4585/Reading-Comprehension.html
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
I don't think there was anything wrong with the writing specifically. As far as composition goes I think it was written fairly well. As for the content, I think it is more true to the truth of perception then many posters on this site are willing to allow. The truth rarely lies at the end of two extremes. Jon set the stage for some great middle ground work.
People following the game with an open mind know what the game is, and what the game isn't. Ideas on success notwithstanding the majority of the article should have people take heed. Although this is a discussion forum, no matter how many times the same people beat that dead horse, it will still remain dead. Once it has been covered lets move on, not pine over it like it will magically change, and thereby so will the focus of discussion. Who are we trying to kid here? Accept what is, or move on.
Good article. Posters always want something the game does not offer, does not make it a bad game. Personally I think Bioware is going to pull this game off. It probably will be a great themepark, if that is the type of game you like.
One note here, let's not stoop to the kids level and use the word 'hater' here, it is entirely inappropriate. Critic is a far better word and fits the context far better.
U know there are soem who have tried to point out that themepark isnt a bad thing. The we want sandbox crowd doesnt listen. They dont care they just want to whine. this article isnt gonna change that.
Look i dont kow what the tunnell shooter looks like and im betting almost no one does. there is almost no footage of it out there. I think they at pc gamer may be the only one to actually see it.
Im gonna give this game a try its 6 months from release theres alot we dont know abou tit. and i for one am just looking forward to playing it.
As ive stated what bioware does best is a story rpg. that is what they are gonna make in an mmorpg. that means the leveling should be fun. Mythiic has done some pretty good pvp in other games so pvp shoud be top notch.
Will this kill wow i sure hope not wow is my mmorpg of chose. But when u have 12 mil subs theres no way some game will kill it.
As for inovation any game that tries to be innovative fails. gw 2 isnt really being innovative making all classes able to heal and there dynamic quest system may seem innovative although rifts may actually be doing it better. But its just another way of questing. Like phasing in wow.
Im not sure what people want for innovation. Maybe before they whine this game isnt innovative they should tell people what kind of innovation they are looking for.
Well I guess this article is a bit better than the STO VS EvE article...
In seriousness though, I'm only really going to comment on one point. I don't know that anyone was really asking for some deep, space exploration game at all. Heck I wouldn't define Jump to Lightspeed as deep space exploration. I do think that the comment that space exploration "wasn't part of the movies" is very, very limited though. There are a lot of Star Wars fans that want to experience the universe BEYOND what we saw in the movies. This limited thinking that everyone wants to be a carbon copy of Han Solo or Luke Skywalker is getting tiresome. There are a lot of people out there who want to make their own, unique and powerful characters in the Star Wars universe. How many people, honestly, watch the movies and think I want to be JUST like Luke? or Anakin? I think the majority want to have their own adventures in that UNIVERSE.
Anyway, I digress. I think anyone with expectations opf a EvE Online kind of space exploration system in ToR may have had unrealistic expectations. But I know that I didn't like a "rail shooter" or "tube shooter" back when I played Rebel Assult 2. I don't care if we jsut have iconic space battles of whatever the crap as our space expereince, but make them zones that you can fly around in. There's a reason that console games went away from the rail shoother appraoch, and I don't think these guys are going to bring it back in style.
Well, I hope the game does great upon launch and if it can compete year 1 against games in their 3-7 year head start cycle, then I think we'll see a lot of great things to come out of this game. Dev's always cannibalize game-changing features, so I'm sure we'll see some pretty popular ones in SWeaTOR (just what I like to call it; rolls off the tongue better), and I hope they use those as a stepping stone to revolutionize the genre even more.
Isn't it in everyone's best interest for a new MMO to succeed? The bigger the audience, the more room for competition.
Gutlard Out!
What, me worry?
I agree with your response to the article.
As for "It won't live up to anyone's expectations. Because our expectations are unreasonable" to an extent I agree with this and will also add that MMO Publishers are not meeting our (the established MMO Player community) expectations in part because the new MMOs are NOT being designed for us... they are being designed to attract a much larger group of consumers.
Now that I realize this I have lost all hope of EVER seeing a MMO released again that will live up to even a small portion of my expectations... because as I said above the MMOs are being designed for a new kind of MMO Player.
The subculture of the present MMO Players is simply too small and not profitable enough for Investors to take a risk on any longer. The Investors are seeking a much larger group of consumers that are not jaded by past MMO failures and are new to the genre and willing to spend large amounts of cash on the new MMOs. The Investors have made this known to the MMO Publishers and as a result the new projects being created by the MMO Publishers will reflect this shift in consumer focus.
SW:TOR will very much appeal to this newer and larger group of consumers. Most of us will not be pleased with it, but that no longer matters.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I agree. They should leave space out of it at release. Make something better and then put it in an expansion.
Star Wars Galaxies didn't had any Space either at launch and no one complained.
SOE added it in a seperate expansion. And eventho caused a lot of performance problems with the ground game when it launched. Jump to Lightspeed is still one of the most awesome expansions ever! I truly loved it! And I know from back then, that many many other did too.
That's why Bioware need to cut the Space part, shelve it and save it for an expansion and do it right!
But that's just my 2 cents.
I agree main points of the article. It is Bioware for petes sake, it will NOT be a sandbox and it WILL BE story driven.
However I dont agree the insinuation that themepark is the best structure of making money in MMORPGs. That is like saying innovation is pointless and what works now is what will be making money.
There is clearly a growing portion of MMORPG gamers (not counting the WoW phenomenon) that are just fed up with themepark games, and they will continue to grow until something happens. This industry is in dire need if innovation and what I have read and seen so far only GW 2 seems to be offering something in that regard.
SW:TOR however, will not.
My gaming blog
I am not sure what this article is about to do. First I read nothing new in there. Second, I see it is full of generalizations, like "it is no Sandbox" or "it is no WOW killer". I haven't seen any real debate about this. I have seen lots of people who want certain ELEMENTS of sandboxes and ELEMENTS of open world and space. The number of people really want to change TOR all around into an UO/SWG like sandbox is microscopic. So for whom is this sermon supposed to be?
I just fail to see the target audience here.
Finally. It is Star Wars. People will be passionate about their wishes, like playing SW alien races. Period. They are Star Wars fans and as such they have the right to bemoan that something they love in Star Wars isn't in the next SW MMO.
So again, for whom is this written? What is this article supposed to do? I just fail to see the point.
When potential customers have wishes, want features, like playable aliens or open world or real space, it isn't up to some editor to berate them why their wishes are meaningless. Wishes exist. Yes you can say Bioware won't fulfill them. Great news. But going to us and telling our wishes are not valid or you are tired of hearing them is just... pointless. Products change all the time because customers voice their wishes. A MMO is in constant flux. So why should be not say our wishes and hope at some time something of it is added? It is what customers always do.
It just sounds like the age old brush off "it isn't for you". Well see how good THAT worked in the last 15 MMOs which were launched and fell on their faces because they ignored a larger part of the fanebases wishes.
And personally asking the OP: Don't you ever feel, when you look at SWTOR "Wow, they got 300 million dollars and THIS is ALL?" Not once? I mean sure it looks ok, and some things look even cool. But don't you ever think that with SUCH a huge investment a MMORPG (about STAR WARS!) could and should be... more than just half baked stuff in so many areas? More that just "more of the same"? Well at least I think a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking wouldn't be so much to expect.
If I take what the OP writes, it essentially says developers are doing what they like, we don't need to discuss, because it doesn't make a difference. Might I ask you: Why then are you hosting a MMO forum? So that we blindly praise every decision made by the great game devs? I am sorry if I mistook the purpose of MMO forums so much.
I made this "bold", because I really want an answer to this.
To me it all reads like one big "critics STFU" article. I don't feel well with the overall belittlement towards critics, like we all were silly or trolls.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Very nice article but I thought the point made about fans of the game is simply a cop out to make trolls feel better, I don't think I could handle following another site similar to this one so I only know this one's forums but in general those of us who could be called fans of the game spend massive amounts of time simply telling trolls they simply don't know what they are claiming to know or that it is a non issue for us.
I've not seen tons of people praising the "on rails" build of space or labeling Bioware as genius for anything they claim to want to try with the game, I've not even seen many posts created exclusively to glorify anything known about what they plan to do. Having said that I've seen posts created to criticize BW for the on rails addition of space (and trolls never give credit to the fact that it will launch with space while SWG took years to do it), the cost of development, the reliance on story, and my personal favorite the context of devs interviews, the size of the worlds (which often were commented on before there was even any info about world size and regardless of the fact that BW has said the various worlds they have will be rather large).
I do though regardless of what you say hold out hope that TOR is a "game changer" in the only way that truly matters, to force devs to pay attention to polish,quality, and detail which they have ignored since I began playing mmo's with SWG.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Come on now do you guys really believe what you are saying? There is so much pure trolling going on with this game it isn't even funny, does no one else remember that incident a few weeks back with the open letter to a Bioware employee that was posted here?
And in regards to an earlier comment from Grumpymel you really believe that alot of these people aren't complaining in hopes of getting Bioware to change what they plan to do with the game, of course most of them know that at this point the chances are slim and none but you are fooling yourself if you think these people won't pull a FFXIV on the TOR boards, you know all the chest bumping going on over there with tons of posts of people patting themselves on the back for getting SE to take action on the things they see as a problem with the game?
That's no different than with TOR, certainly I have seen my fair share of critical commentary that didn't rise to the level of trolling but the article makes fairly decent points about the fact that this game has more trolls than any game I can recall pre launch.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Claps for the author. This article is an island lucidity in an ocean of flame war craziness.
XAVIER DRAGEN :: RECRUITING OFFICER :: ZERO³ :: STAR WARS: THE OLD REPUBLIC
Have you played it? If not, how can you know? You may suspect, but nothing more.
XAVIER DRAGEN :: RECRUITING OFFICER :: ZERO³ :: STAR WARS: THE OLD REPUBLIC
this has to be the best editorial column I have read on this site and one of the better mmo columns in general. Just smashing the delusions the very posters on this forum revel in with a HUGE reality check. Very nice.
Seriously, you can't KNOW if it is going to be good or bad unless you can read the future. I mean that literally, you can not factual know if it is going to be a good or bad release unless you have a super power of precognition.
Some people are just trolls and their argument doesn't DESERVE a debate. Stop acting like every argument is equally valid and firing back with 'oh nice ad hominum attack, not even addressing the fact that this game will destroy the entire video game industry.' Some people on forums are just being lame, and by some I mean A LOT. I don't care how much genuine 'interest' they attach to their opinion/post, if most of it is going to illicit argument by way of ridiculous statements, they're a troll.
I like you Jon Wood. Your not full of shit like most of the writers here.
*facepalm*
The world must be full of trolls for you. It surely is comforting to know to be on the good side now that you guys have the Hierophant's blessing to call all critics trolls.
What an accomlishment.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Pst... You don't have to use his name in this one. :P
Well, we can add MMOs to the topics of things you can't ahve a conversation with in "polite company". Used to be just politics and religion, but opinion is just so divisive out there and everyone thinks their ideas are the only right ideas that it's a shame. Fact is, most people out there have different ideas of fun. Some think it's fun to play strictly PvE, some thing it's fun to strictyl play PvP, some think it's fun to camp spawn points, some think it's fun to craft all day long. No one will ever agree on what makes the perfect MMO, because the perfect MMO cannot exist anymore.
Bioware is doing what they do best and if you want space exploration, play EVE. If you want a sandbox, play any of the myriad of MMOs already on the market. If you want PvP only, play Lineage or Aion or the many other games out there. It is no use whining on a forum and badmouthing a game you'll likely never play. Me, I am still undecided if I would play SWTOR. I don't like the no sandbox idea and crafting will probably be lame, but I like the questing and storyline ideas. Will it be a good game? I hope so, but I really didn't like the last offerings from Bioware I played. Well, I did like aspects of Mass Effect, but I really didn't like Dragon Age. So maybe I'll hate the game, maybe I'll like it, but I won't know until I play for 30 days, now will I?
just replace SWTOR by GW2, RIFT and TERA and you got 3 more articles for the next month. and everytime it is the ultimate truth: we know, that we know nothing.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Its also not a hamburger.
I don't understand why the people here who are complaining about opinions and speculation even come to this site. If you're so thin-skinned to let others offend you by meaningless opinions and speculations about a game, then do us, and yourself, a favor by never coming back. The opinions and speculations will never end. They've existed since this site came online. Get over it.
Calling people trolls, because they disagree with your perceived direction of the game does not mean you took the moral high road.
Come on Dude, don't try and make this some philisophical debate. You know very well what people mean by trolling or being a troll, when it comes to a forum debate, for instance. The Bioware devs can show any part of gameplay in TOR and there will still be those in this very forum who will troll a thread by posting what was seen by all, as some lie or go off into some debate how the game will suck because of that, without ever even looking at what was just released and having the actual facts.
You want to know what i believe TOR will be. Just go back to my post on page 5. I think alot of people are just not reading and understanding what Bioware is trying to accomplish. They see the facts yet won't accept them as the truth.