1) Love how this article pissed off some of the SWToR haters *and* some of the fanbois. Guess it's true, the people balanced in the middle really do get pissed on from both sides.
2) Will SWToR be thought of as innovative? Everquest seems innovative, the largest game to bring 3d graphics to the MMO genre. Isn't SWToR doing the same thing but for audio? Everything will be fully voiced, no more quest text, unless you want text...
Also for the first time in any MMO I've seen the combat actually looks somewhat realistic. Blades are actually hitting each other and blocking, dodging. Flinching and wounded animations play differently depending on where the blaster bolt hits the character. The game mechanics track where projectiles are landing. For the first time when I see two people in combat in an MMO it actually looks visually interactive real combat, not just two avatars individually chopping away at each others hp box...
It's actually some of the best combat I have seen in any game.. Why I don't understand all the complaints about animations, but hey keep complaining, the dev team now is working to improve an already amazing combat/animation system, so when it does come out the animations will be superior.
Everytime these people compain the dev team goes back and says "They are complaining we must make this even better" so yea, hooray for all those bashing the game at every opportunity, the end result will be a far more superior product.
I still keep reading how this game is this and not that. All one has to do is go back and do some research on what Bioware is trying to accomplish with TOR. Since really anyone who has played the game has only been able to play very low levels that are on starter worlds only. How can anyone say this game is purely a themepark or does not have any sand.
What i mean is, it was already stated by the devs that this game is a hybrid of both systems and it falls exactly in the middle. If you sit back and look at the features that will be in the game, even though some have not been explained in detail yet. The game will have open world exploration, crafting, pvp and social areas. These are some of the more important systems in a sandbox game. TOR will also have PVE quest, skill trees with advanced classes and raiding. These are ystems that are in a thempark mmo.
So the game will have systems taken from both side of the fence with full VO and a highly detailed personal story/world story , that is added to make in my opinion a mmorpg that will set itself apart from all the others.
“that anyone who says Macbeth in a theatre is treated.”
From the Op’s post should that not be…..’in a theatre is dated.’
Anyway I think Mr Wood has hit the nail on the head here and many of us have already been saying it. STOR is a SF MMO, but not as you know it Jim. I doubt anyone is going to be able to tell if this is for them before the reviews. I see elements of a traditional MMO, lobby game and solo Rpg in it, it will be unique.
I still fall on the ‘it won’t be for me’ side. But as I say until we see some reviews and hear from people who have played it After the game launches I won’t know.
That's completely false. When I played it there was no lobby, there was no instancing, or loading screen. It was persistant open world MMO. They do have places where you can pick up story quests that are "instanced" kinda, didn't seem instanced though, no loading screen , you walk through a transparent doorway and enter a room where there is a key figure upon entering the room (which is without a loading screen) you can talk to an NPC and then perhaps there is a battle or fight, or you just pick up another mission. You leave the room you enter and continue on with your mission out in the open world where other players are doing their missions.
No lobby, no loading screen, it all seemed very free flowing and open world with many many players running around doing their quests and killing enemies all around you like you would see in any MMO. So this lie can be put to rest right now.
I think I can't get past the thought of the McDonalds scenario he played out in the article and CCP. Man's got a point. Mkes you actually wonder if CCP should've been sourced to make this game. None the less I really think sandbox mmo's are taking a barrage from all sides and are becoming less and less likely to make an emergence as a mainstream and successful mmo. Blame the industry, the fans or even WoW, but I don't see sandboxes coming out anymore.
Nice post I only disagree with one point "not a game/genre changer".
I have played mmo's for 20 years and I can't remember really any npc given quest in any mmo I played that made me stop and think.
To me that is the changer, that is the difference i'll actually care about the decisions I make in respect to the pve story and game THAT is a mmo changer and quite refreshing, beyond anything else the people I game with thats what matters to us.
I want to be in an mmo where I feel the same concern for my character and same responsibility for his growth and companions as I do in Mass effect, dragon age origins etc.
The main issue I have with the above is the utterly erroneous slamming of the phrase 'WoW-Killer'. As long as WoW remains the dominant MMO, the phrase has a rightful place. Afterall, all it suggests is a game with the possible potential to unseat WoW as the dominant MMO. When new MMOs are announced, the phrase tends to be used with the indefinite article... 'a' WoW-Killer... suggesting the new game may have what it takes to become the dominant MMO. When this happens, which it eventually will, the game that does it, I guarantee, will be known as 'the' WoW-Killer (i.e. using the definite article) to illustrate without doubt that the game in question was <i>the</i> game to beat WoW in becoming the most popular MMO on the planet. The phrase has validity, for good reason. All it does it suggest what may become the most popular MMO. From the comment the author made above, I'm not sure this is fully appreciated. I left a meeting recently with a company that does a considerable amount of advertising for games and game publishers, producing work above, through and below the line. The phrase 'WoW-Killer' must have been used half a dozen times in that meeting, by people that earn a fortune from understanding the industry. If its okay for them to use, its okay for everyone else. It is an established phrase, concerning an assured event. I'm not sure what the grief the author actually has with it, but it makes me question the validity of his other statements. The only ones I really concur with is that one cannot yet presume SWTOR will be an abyssmal failure nor a resounding success. Only time will tell - though I suggest neither. The installed fanbase of both BW and SW will guarantee it won't be an absolute failure,; however, with suggestions that it will deliver little new, and with MMO audiences growing ever-more sophisticated, a game that delivers little (or nothing) new, is unlikely to significantly rock the foundations of the MMO game-playing world.
Originally posted by DerWotanBig $ usually comes from big (bad) companies such as EA, Activision leading to a forced release and company shreddering (Mythic, Origin, Westwood, Bluebyte!...)
I doubt EA would screw over Bioware, its one of their most successful developers and greatest cashcows, yeah EA can be pretty crap but they do publish some good games and most of them come from Bioware.
The slide has already started for Bioware under the control of EA.
The depth of their games is being sacrificed for the mass market and the MT/ DLC proftieering is getting heavier and heavier.
its impossible to pass any sort of absolute judgement on this game, there is to much secrecy and subjectivity surrounding the whole of this game, I will be buying the CE version and play the shit out of it.
Oh Stradden (aka Jon Wood who shall still be named by name by all commenters whether you ask us to or not), this post and the responses to it could be used to teach a class called "Why logic does not work on forums"
Agree with the article, understand why you felt it had to be said....but some of the responses have me doing a strange mélange of /facepalm-ing and sniggering.
The logic...it is not strong with the fanboi/hater contingent.
Wish TOR would come out already so we can all make our minds up whether we like it or not based on the actual...y'know...game.
A big story that basically says "its not out yet, so it can be either or...". You shouldn't say its not gonna be a WoW killer or that its not gonna be a sandbox or the rest of the things this story said it will be or won't be because... its not out yet.
He is right to make sure people are sure of what they are getting. To forget the hopes and dreams they might have of what this game is going to be and instead settle for what you know it is. Good job,tell it like it is and let the chips fall where they might.
"this game is not innovative, deviates from KOTOR lore, is themepark, contains almost no new ideas and is generic mmorpg, but don't worry its still going to be omg awesome and you all need to like it and think on how awesome it is, just because its TOR"...
yep entire article about taking a few (out of many) shortcommings this game has and creating somes sort of excuse for it.
Those bright-colored screenshots of VERY-cartoony-looking characters do not inspire trust in this game too...especially that one with overmuscular(seriously looks like WWE wrestler) malak-clone-gorilla jumping in the air....
Why do MMO game developers have to be innovative? And it seen as a bad thing if they are not trying anything new?
Agreed.. After all the releases in the past couple of years of half-assed incomplete games,Give the people a polished fun game that ties all sorts of gameplay elements together to provide a consistant cohesive world and they will play it
Because we already played the game before and are tired of it? Same reason why MMOs have been terrible for the last 6 years. They're all dumbed down versions of EverQuest, and I got tired of EverQuest in 2001. We want something new, not the same boring thing over and over again, thats so simple and derivitive we don't even need a tutorial.
You can add "Not an MMORPG" to the list. Its BEYOND themepark, is practically Diablo.
But thats every genre for you. I have only played MMORPG for 3 years, I have been playing FPS for nearly 20 and theres not been any innovative ideas in that genre.
Its just why do MMO's get stick (more than any other genre) for not being innovative. Its only a game, its more about fun than bringing new things to the table.
There has been tons of innovation in the FPS genre. Rechargeable shields, mountable vehicles, various new weapons, customizable weapons, unlockable weapons/achievements, game modes. Each FPS has a different spin on the genre from Counterstrike to Modern Warfare to Team Fortress. Most of the big hit FPS games to come out have brought something new to the table.
"this game is not innovative, deviates from KOTOR lore, is themepark, contains almost no new ideas and is generic mmorpg, but don't worry its still going to be omg awesome and you all need to like it and think on how awesome it is, just because its TOR"...
yep entire article about taking a few (out of many) shortcommings this game has and creating somes sort of excuse for it.
Those bright-colored screenshots of VERY-cartoony-looking characters do not inspire trust in this game too...especially that one with overmuscular(seriously looks like WWE wrestler) malak-clone-gorilla jumping in the air....
Why do MMO game developers have to be innovative? And it seen as a bad thing if they are not trying anything new?
Agreed.. After all the releases in the past couple of years of half-assed incomplete games,Give the people a polished fun game that ties all sorts of gameplay elements together to provide a consistant cohesive world and they will play it
Because we already played the game before and are tired of it? Same reason why MMOs have been terrible for the last 6 years. They're all dumbed down versions of EverQuest, and I got tired of EverQuest in 2001. We want something new, not the same boring thing over and over again, thats so simple and derivitive we don't even need a tutorial.
You can add "Not an MMORPG" to the list. Its BEYOND themepark, is practically Diablo.
But thats every genre for you. I have only played MMORPG for 3 years, I have been playing FPS for nearly 20 and theres not been any innovative ideas in that genre.
Its just why do MMO's get stick (more than any other genre) for not being innovative. Its only a game, its more about fun than bringing new things to the table.
There has been tons of innovation in the FPS genre. Rechargeable shields, mountable vehicles, various new weapons, customizable weapons, unlockable weapons/achievements, game modes. Each FPS has a different spin on the genre from Counterstrike to Modern Warfare to Team Fortress. Most of the big hit FPS games to come out have brought something new to the table.
How bout we pull the EA strategy and make a FPS with more innotavated idea's on it, and slap a MMO genre on it... OOO snap, but i think SOE did it first, planet side.
I am not sure what this article is about to do. First I read nothing new in there. Second, I see it is full of generalizations, like "it is no Sandbox" or "it is no WOW killer". I haven't seen any real debate about this. I have seen lots of people who want certain ELEMENTS of sandboxes and ELEMENTS of open world and space. The number of people really want to change TOR all around into an UO/SWG like sandbox is microscopic. So for whom is this sermon supposed to be?
I just fail to see the target audience here.
Finally. It is Star Wars. People will be passionate about their wishes, like playing SW alien races. Period. They are Star Wars fans and as such they have the right to bemoan that something they love in Star Wars isn't in the next SW MMO.
So again, for whom is this written? What is this article supposed to do? I just fail to see the point.
When potential customers have wishes, want features, like playable aliens or open world or real space, it isn't up to some editor to berate them why their wishes are meaningless. Wishes exist. Yes you can say Bioware won't fulfill them. Great news. But going to us and telling our wishes are not valid or you are tired of hearing them is just... pointless. Products change all the time because customers voice their wishes. A MMO is in constant flux. So why should be not say our wishes and hope at some time something of it is added? It is what customers always do.
It just sounds like the age old brush off "it isn't for you". Well see how good THAT worked in the last 15 MMOs which were launched and fell on their faces because they ignored a larger part of the fanebases wishes.
And personally asking the OP: Don't you ever feel, when you look at SWTOR "Wow, they got 300 million dollars and THIS is ALL?" Not once? I mean sure it looks ok, and some things look even cool. But don't you ever think that with SUCH a huge investment a MMORPG (about STAR WARS!) could and should be... more than just half baked stuff in so many areas? More that just "more of the same"? Well at least I think a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking wouldn't be so much to expect.
If I take what the OP writes, it essentially says developers are doing what they like, we don't need to discuss, because it doesn't make a difference. Might I ask you: Why then are you hosting a MMO forum? So that we blindly praise every decision made by the great game devs? I am sorry if I mistook the purpose of MMO forums so much.
I made this "bold", because I really want an answer to this.
To me it all reads like one big "critics STFU" article. I don't feel well with the overall belittlement towards critics, like we all were silly or trolls.
And again people deny the post that actually has a point. God I just love reading these forums, sometimes it can entertain me for hours.
I couldn't agree more with Jon on this one. There are so many people wailing and howling and ranting about this game already because it isn't EXACTLY what THEY would want, that it is ridiculous. Bioware is going to do what they do best and that is make a story driven game with a high level of polish that will appeal strongly to those of us that love their other games. They have already said they aren't reinventing the wheel but are going with what already works. They aren't recreating Galaxies and they aren't making Eve the Star Wars edition.
With the might of EA and Bioware behind this game there is no way it will fail. It is impossible to say, however, whether it will be as huge a success as WoW. That is a nearly unattainable dream for most MMOs, but if anyone can do it, I think Bioware can.
My hat is off to you Jon, for saying what needed to be said. Hopefully you have a thick skin as angry frothing at the mouth haters will no doubt love a new excuse to rant.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
A pretty balanced article. One thing though; whenever someone slaps the "WoW Killer" label on an upcoming game, I think it's usually a troll trying to stir up antipathy towards it, not a fan expressing his/her undying love. Most of us (WoW fans or no) react negatively to this statement, so I doubt this is used with any great frequency to promote a game. If it does nothing else, it attracts other trolls like flies to __________.
Comments
It's actually some of the best combat I have seen in any game.. Why I don't understand all the complaints about animations, but hey keep complaining, the dev team now is working to improve an already amazing combat/animation system, so when it does come out the animations will be superior.
Everytime these people compain the dev team goes back and says "They are complaining we must make this even better" so yea, hooray for all those bashing the game at every opportunity, the end result will be a far more superior product.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I still keep reading how this game is this and not that. All one has to do is go back and do some research on what Bioware is trying to accomplish with TOR. Since really anyone who has played the game has only been able to play very low levels that are on starter worlds only. How can anyone say this game is purely a themepark or does not have any sand.
What i mean is, it was already stated by the devs that this game is a hybrid of both systems and it falls exactly in the middle. If you sit back and look at the features that will be in the game, even though some have not been explained in detail yet. The game will have open world exploration, crafting, pvp and social areas. These are some of the more important systems in a sandbox game. TOR will also have PVE quest, skill trees with advanced classes and raiding. These are ystems that are in a thempark mmo.
So the game will have systems taken from both side of the fence with full VO and a highly detailed personal story/world story , that is added to make in my opinion a mmorpg that will set itself apart from all the others.
That's completely false. When I played it there was no lobby, there was no instancing, or loading screen. It was persistant open world MMO. They do have places where you can pick up story quests that are "instanced" kinda, didn't seem instanced though, no loading screen , you walk through a transparent doorway and enter a room where there is a key figure upon entering the room (which is without a loading screen) you can talk to an NPC and then perhaps there is a battle or fight, or you just pick up another mission. You leave the room you enter and continue on with your mission out in the open world where other players are doing their missions.
No lobby, no loading screen, it all seemed very free flowing and open world with many many players running around doing their quests and killing enemies all around you like you would see in any MMO. So this lie can be put to rest right now.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Bravo Jon. From someone sick of both the Hype and the Hate.
I think I can't get past the thought of the McDonalds scenario he played out in the article and CCP. Man's got a point. Mkes you actually wonder if CCP should've been sourced to make this game. None the less I really think sandbox mmo's are taking a barrage from all sides and are becoming less and less likely to make an emergence as a mainstream and successful mmo. Blame the industry, the fans or even WoW, but I don't see sandboxes coming out anymore.
Superb article by Jon Wood, I really enjoyed, every word of it!
Superb article, enjoyed every word of it! Can't wait for SW:TOR
Nice post I only disagree with one point "not a game/genre changer".
I have played mmo's for 20 years and I can't remember really any npc given quest in any mmo I played that made me stop and think.
To me that is the changer, that is the difference i'll actually care about the decisions I make in respect to the pve story and game THAT is a mmo changer and quite refreshing, beyond anything else the people I game with thats what matters to us.
I want to be in an mmo where I feel the same concern for my character and same responsibility for his growth and companions as I do in Mass effect, dragon age origins etc.
It's going to be WoW with a star wars theme, with voice overs.
A decent game, but a dismal MMORPG.
Good job Jon!
Totally agree.
If we are guessing that it is a 'dismal failiure', then you are only guessing it won't be.
So you cannot posibly list that it won't be as a fact here under the title of this article as something 'SWOTR isnt'.
These recent articles lecturing us all the time on how to think are getting really tiresome btw. Stop it.
The main issue I have with the above is the utterly erroneous slamming of the phrase 'WoW-Killer'. As long as WoW remains the dominant MMO, the phrase has a rightful place. Afterall, all it suggests is a game with the possible potential to unseat WoW as the dominant MMO. When new MMOs are announced, the phrase tends to be used with the indefinite article... 'a' WoW-Killer... suggesting the new game may have what it takes to become the dominant MMO. When this happens, which it eventually will, the game that does it, I guarantee, will be known as 'the' WoW-Killer (i.e. using the definite article) to illustrate without doubt that the game in question was <i>the</i> game to beat WoW in becoming the most popular MMO on the planet. The phrase has validity, for good reason. All it does it suggest what may become the most popular MMO. From the comment the author made above, I'm not sure this is fully appreciated. I left a meeting recently with a company that does a considerable amount of advertising for games and game publishers, producing work above, through and below the line. The phrase 'WoW-Killer' must have been used half a dozen times in that meeting, by people that earn a fortune from understanding the industry. If its okay for them to use, its okay for everyone else. It is an established phrase, concerning an assured event. I'm not sure what the grief the author actually has with it, but it makes me question the validity of his other statements. The only ones I really concur with is that one cannot yet presume SWTOR will be an abyssmal failure nor a resounding success. Only time will tell - though I suggest neither. The installed fanbase of both BW and SW will guarantee it won't be an absolute failure,; however, with suggestions that it will deliver little new, and with MMO audiences growing ever-more sophisticated, a game that delivers little (or nothing) new, is unlikely to significantly rock the foundations of the MMO game-playing world.
pilch out
The slide has already started for Bioware under the control of EA.
The depth of their games is being sacrificed for the mass market and the MT/ DLC proftieering is getting heavier and heavier.
If you havent seen this you don't follow Bioware.
Eh.. The last 4 points you made are sorta... poinltess? lol
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
its impossible to pass any sort of absolute judgement on this game, there is to much secrecy and subjectivity surrounding the whole of this game, I will be buying the CE version and play the shit out of it.
Oh Stradden (aka Jon Wood who shall still be named by name by all commenters whether you ask us to or not), this post and the responses to it could be used to teach a class called "Why logic does not work on forums"
Agree with the article, understand why you felt it had to be said....but some of the responses have me doing a strange mélange of /facepalm-ing and sniggering.
The logic...it is not strong with the fanboi/hater contingent.
Wish TOR would come out already so we can all make our minds up whether we like it or not based on the actual...y'know...game.
Y'all QUIT YOUR BICKERING! the game isn't out!!!! so SHUT UP UNTILL THEN!
A big story that basically says "its not out yet, so it can be either or...". You shouldn't say its not gonna be a WoW killer or that its not gonna be a sandbox or the rest of the things this story said it will be or won't be because... its not out yet.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
He is right to make sure people are sure of what they are getting. To forget the hopes and dreams they might have of what this game is going to be and instead settle for what you know it is. Good job,tell it like it is and let the chips fall where they might.
There has been tons of innovation in the FPS genre. Rechargeable shields, mountable vehicles, various new weapons, customizable weapons, unlockable weapons/achievements, game modes. Each FPS has a different spin on the genre from Counterstrike to Modern Warfare to Team Fortress. Most of the big hit FPS games to come out have brought something new to the table.
QFT: The only thing that can kill WoW, is another WoW... Or if blizzard made a new MMO and said. WOW BEING SHUT DOWN, GO PLAY NEW ONE!.
How bout we pull the EA strategy and make a FPS with more innotavated idea's on it, and slap a MMO genre on it... OOO snap, but i think SOE did it first, planet side.
And again people deny the post that actually has a point. God I just love reading these forums, sometimes it can entertain me for hours.
I couldn't agree more with Jon on this one. There are so many people wailing and howling and ranting about this game already because it isn't EXACTLY what THEY would want, that it is ridiculous. Bioware is going to do what they do best and that is make a story driven game with a high level of polish that will appeal strongly to those of us that love their other games. They have already said they aren't reinventing the wheel but are going with what already works. They aren't recreating Galaxies and they aren't making Eve the Star Wars edition.
With the might of EA and Bioware behind this game there is no way it will fail. It is impossible to say, however, whether it will be as huge a success as WoW. That is a nearly unattainable dream for most MMOs, but if anyone can do it, I think Bioware can.
My hat is off to you Jon, for saying what needed to be said. Hopefully you have a thick skin as angry frothing at the mouth haters will no doubt love a new excuse to rant.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
A pretty balanced article. One thing though; whenever someone slaps the "WoW Killer" label on an upcoming game, I think it's usually a troll trying to stir up antipathy towards it, not a fan expressing his/her undying love. Most of us (WoW fans or no) react negatively to this statement, so I doubt this is used with any great frequency to promote a game. If it does nothing else, it attracts other trolls like flies to __________.