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Real time training = worse than cash shop?
Nekrataal
Member Posts: 557
If you want to take part in this discussion, please jump to post # 122.
I removed any mention of EVE so that we can stay on topic &, I think, my points are presented better.
Thank you
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
---------------------------------------
Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
Nothing else in the game has to change. Keep the old real time training mechanic of buying skills with isk & set them for training as you have to keep an in game way to earn skills obviously.
The pricing would have to be a bit lower than the current one though, but its only fair buisness, as they would make a lot more transactions & a lot more money that way.
Something acceptable for me could go something like this:
0.25$ for a lvl 1 skill
0.50$ for a lvl 2 skill
0.75$ for a lvl 3 skill
1.00$ for a lvl 4 skill
1.50$ for a lvl 5 skill
(Could be even lower than that as there's a ton of skills to spend money on.)
Multiply that by the current (or a revised one) skill multiplicator for the more advanced skills & voilà.
*I feel like I'm forgetting something... but it might come back to me when we start discussing the topic.
Thoughts?
Comments
Did you send this to CCP? Maybe they can implement this by Christmas.
Nope I didn't. You think I should?
Might be worth a try.
You better understand the subject before you start on 'improving' it.
Just my 0.2 ISK...
Trust me ,i think there is a lot of people who are tired of cheap game design,but in your case using Eve as an example is a bad one.I truly believe CCP planned the whole Plex/ISK setup to make real life cash from it.They actually have hired at least one,i don't know how many exactly people to just monitor the in game economy.Ask yourself why?I think it is obvious,i already mentioned it.
As to other games,the time =reward is imo a poor design,but it is simple and guess what it seems,ANY cheap design will sell as long as you have a few easy mode gimmicks in their to attract those millions who want a easy gratifying game.I been around fps a very long time and what i saw was people would instantly quit after losing,nobody wanted a challenge,they would either search for easy victims or like many just outright cheat...aimbots.
So if a developer put in place a VERY strategic game where everything is earned not time or bought,i think we would have a small populace...example maybe like FFXI had,a decent pop but never going to find 12 million people looking for a challenging game.Since all the devs are in it for ONE reason only and that is to make money,we arenot going to see many quality games crop up.There is always hope as there will be another Carmack looming around somewhere.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Please enlighten us oh wise one.
I agree, thats undeniable & a cheap move by CCP imo.
I'm not sure if you got that I was talking about offline training... the rest is pretty much off topic tbh.
Off topic again, but I'm with you about FFXI, very good game.
The question is Real time training, is it worst than cash shop? Yes, no,explain.
How about a model based upon advertisement revenue instead?
Or how about developing the base MMORPG and allowing people to not only buy the client, but also the server software as well so that customers host their own servers?
How about a system that rewards customer loyalty with a subscription fee that decreases with time?
There are many ways to make money that have not even been tried yet. This is what is the problem with the industry, it no longer innovates.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
They're all good idea & I agree that one of the problem is that the industry no longer innovates, or barely, but thats not the question I've asked... Maybe I should have made this a poll.
Isn't it what Second life or Entropia Univers, always mixes the two, already done. Well, its not hosting per say, but players can own virtual location in the game. For exemple, that space station thing.
I don't believe it is worse than cash shop. Cash shop means I can possibly buy a carrier + skills on day one using RL cash and go and fight.
Time-based skill training means you won't be able to get into it immediately. There is a good reason why people don't learn to fight in a capital ship if they are not familiar with the combat mechanics. Its very expensive. Like in other games, you learn the basics of things, then move on to learn the more advance skills in the game. Do warcraft allow a level 1 player to have all the level 80 skills? No.
One thing you have to realise is that eve allows you to be whatever you want to be. A miner, or a manufacturer, fighter, scientist etc. If you are comparing this to an xp type game such as warcraft or allods, they are class restricted. This means that they go from level 1 to Max level and only get to allocate points in certain skills. It is restrictive in a way.
Time-based skill allows Eve to let the players choose what they want to be. They don't need to keep upping Max levels just so a player can be a jack of all trades. The only other way they can do this is by having users repeatedly use the skill over and over till they max it (Think Mortal Online). This then becomes a lot of grinding just to skill up in something. Grind tends to bring out the macro/bots if it becomes too dull. So compare this to long grinding, which is worse? Not all things will come down to what earns the most cash...it might just so happen they earn more that way, but I believe the design in itself is a good idea.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
Bad idea. It is true that it is unfair that some people have the time to get really great in a game, and that certain games like Eve really rewards long time players.
But selling levels/skills is worst, that means any nitwit can get from noob to great in just a click, and that is something he can't back up with player skill unlike the unemployed no lifer.
GU comics used to have a theme called "E-bay or idiot?". What you suggesting would swarm the endgame of any game with those people.
You can't buy character experience and I can't be the only one that hates when you group with someone that looks competent, after all he have raid gear but then you find out he is the incompetent smaller brother of the guy that got all the gear and wipes your party all the time with his incompetence.
Some things needs to be earned. I can live with XP pots that makes leveling/skill training a bit faster, like half the time. You still learn some things then but just selling all skills in the game to anyone with enough money or fully leveled and geared characters sucks big time in my book.
I honestly don't understand why you are holding on & defending a system that is only there to make you wait. To each there own.
So the only thing I get from your post concerning my question is: No, because I don't want anyone to be able to spend an insane ammount of cash to have the ability to pilot a cap ship( which he'll probably loose) from day one. Its weak... but ok.
Nothing wrong with real-time training. Nothing wrong with cash shops, if that's the way a game is designed. So, no - real time training isn't worse since there is nothing wrong with either. I've played games that use both and it's fine.
It's funny how folks try to judge mmo's against some high ideal...as if there was some great standard to compare these games to.
Quoted because that's worth quoting. I remember a few years back when buying toons was all the rage. I saw a mage, a character that I had grouped with on a few occasions, stripped naked and running through a lowbie zone like a spaz. These people should carry warning signs. It was definitely not the same guy.
Idk why you don't see that it would only make the game more accessible faster. There would only be more people to PvP with/against. Who cares if someone want to jump into a cap ship on day one after spending an insane ammount of cash? He a dumb noob, so what? More loot for you when you blow him up. But at least, he can do what the hell he wants & not be limited by a stupid timer!
Maybe this clears it up a bit.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
Its not about standard or ideals... yes there's something wrong with real time training in an MMO as its just a delayed cash shop. Why the delay seriously? Can't you admit that its basicly just a cash shop & get done with it. jeez.
But hey, if you have no problem with it. Its all good.
See my answer to that above, I'm not going to developpe more on this.
also with the new proposed changes to learning skills, it looks like it'll be faster to learn to fly stuff once the change is in. So at least there is an improvement in regards to that.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
I agree with you on some points, they are just unrelated to the issue at hand I think.
Yup, getting rid of the learning skill is quite an improvement.
Good decision from CCP for once. lol
I dislike training over time, like in EVE, you go up in skill for not doing anything.
I dislike cash shops.
I prefer to play a game where my character is measured in hours played, and content completed.
I think of my character as living in teh game world. And the progression as the characters career.
So, a month went by for me, but I didn't log on to the game. That means, ZERO time went by for my character living in the game world. So I don't want my character to make any progression, not with days of me paying a sub, not with cash in a shop.
I only want my character to progress, as he accomplishes his career in the game world, that is doing quests, killing mobs, or crafting is you're a crafter.
I think of my character like a soldier, or any sort of real progression. You start as a private, you go up the ranks, and if you're good, you make general.
you don't pay 50 bucks to be general. You don't sit around and just wait to be the general. You ahve to fight battles, and win.
So when a game offers a way to skip that part, I'm like, why would I want to play that game? The progression, IS the game, and my Character is only alive when I log on.
It doesn't matter if I pay a subscription fee for a whole year. If I only play one hour, the character isn't a year old, he's only one hour old.
If he's only done one quest, he's a newb, a grunt, that's only done one quest.
If I've played him for 400 hours, he's experienced, a veteran, he's done many, many quests.
Doesn't matter if I play that 400 hours in 10 weeks, or a year, or two years.
I want that 400 hours of character progression, and I only want it to happen when my character is in the game, and earning XP, with no other way to progress or skip those hours.
Exactly my though! Couldn't have said it better.
I'm not pro cash shop btw. This thread is just to point out that EVE is a delayed cash shop & nothing more with this time + sub mechanic. I'm just saying it would make so much more sense for that game to be F2P with a cash shop where you can buy skills & only skills.
I can only see advantages for everyone in doing it that way. The game wouldn't even have to change at all or very little.
Ok, Since Eve allows you to buy plex for ISK, does that mean its still bad since its F2P?
Since you can buy characters from the character bazaar (in eve forums), using isk, its a cash shop of sorts allowing you to buy a character which has the skills to use t2 ships or a ship of your choice + get isk to buy the ship on day 1.
Does Eve still seem as bad as you are saying it is?
I don't know about you but my friend has two accounts which he is paying with Plex. Mine was paid for a year + me introducing people gains me free months, so I don't need to pay for a while yet. But to me, Eve is virtually a f2p game since I'll play by buying plex with isk.
To me it is a F2P game with a cash shop which does not ruin in-game economy (not yet anyway)
As for Progression, don't see progression as skills earned but more along the lines of what your characters have achieved. Sure, I could have the skills to fly a carrier, but in the end if all I do is buy a carrier and it sits in a hangar because I'm too afraid to get it blown, what have I achieved?
For example, your character has manage to infiltrate a corporation and stole riches from it costing the corporation months of work because of your evilness. Or how you gained riches by trading and now own the largest player own trading corporation in eve. Or how you own vast amount of nullsec space and have 2000 strong players following you.
With that said, my character is 3 years old, and I haven't achieved much
so yeah. do I think I've progressed a lot? not really. All I have is skills and some bpos to my name.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
I'l reframe the question.
Do you see the logic in saying that RTT is a delayed cash shop going by the way it works?
In a cash shop you don't have to play to be able to have access to content, just like in an RTT game.
In a cash shop you pay a set ammount to have access to said content. In an RTT the price tag is derived from your monthly sub & the time it take to train. Yes! progression definitly have a price tag just like in a cash stop.
Sooooo, You don't have to play & there's a price tag... that screams cash shop to me!
Making you uselessly wait to get what you want is beyond ridiculous & makes the barrier of entry worst for every year that passes.
I don't how anyone can say that an RTT game can have a future. The "waiting to have acces to content" mechanic is self defeating in the long run...
I'll leave it at that.
Edited to get EVE reference out of it for obvious reason.
/sigh
You would pay the monthly sub regardless if you earned the XP or if it is timebased. Therefor it does not make sence to claim it to be a cashshop. It is however a unique way of keeping people signed up, but not a cashshop. Also in EvE (Unlike in Perpetuum) you have to switch skills and such so if you do not do so you will not get skillpoints.
A better example in your case might be Perpetuum where you get 1EP every minute your subscribed (I guess only when you subscribed else it would not make sense). However I still not believe it to be a cashshop, unlike in cashshops you need to play the game to get money to buy stuff (Including a lot of the skills). Unless someone give it to you, but he still had to play for it. I think this is the big difference.
I do dislike the system though. Taking a break of a month means you behind one month and regardless of how hard you try, there is no way to catch up.