All I have to say for the last time is; Everything you do in EVE, including making isk, etc. (EVERYTHING), is derived form skills on which you have no control, or barely any (implants), on how fast they can be acquired.
Thats all there is to it.
I get your point. But I prefer real time training simply because I don't have a lot of time for games, and I don't want to be limited by that. For people who want to level as they play, there's tons of games for that. And I don't want EVE to turn to a buy to win cash shop game, so imo it should stay the way it is
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
All I have to say for the last time is; Everything you do in EVE, including making isk, etc. (EVERYTHING), is derived form skills on which you have no control, or barely any (implants), on how fast they can be acquired.
Thats all there is to it.
I get your point. But I prefer real time training simply because I don't have a lot of time for games, and I don't want to be limited by that. For people who want to level as they play, there's tons of games for that. And I don't want EVE to turn to a buy to win cash shop game, so imo it should stay the way it is
It wouldn't turn EVE in a buy to win. Thats the thing! The game isn't design that way. Aren't EVE palyer constantly saying that skills aren't everthing, experience is. I think you don't see that it would make the game a lot more accessible for people like you, on the contrary.
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
Gringing is done on other thing than skill in EVE so I really don't see the pertinance of that.
I think you are attibuting an effect to real time training that would be also true if you used any other from of progression in an EVE type game. Most people would specialize & they would gradually expand ther skill from there.
In short, I don't agree with you.
I'm not sure I get your point. If I choose to grind something like Caldari standing in EvE, you are saying that is the same as being forced to grind levels in another game?
Regarding the second paragraph, the only game that has come close, in my experience was SWG (Pre-CU at least, as I don't have much experience CU/NGE). Using a skill 'cap and trade' system encouraged specialization and reliance on other players. That said, I remember spending hours crafting and setting up camp sites outside Naboo for Master Ranger. Or, hours crafting wall modules and eventually housing deeds for Master Architect. Hours were also spent macro-dancing for Master Entertainer. Alternately, I have not spent any time grinding skills in EvE. So, in short, I don't agree with you. But really, if we all agree, what would we have to talk about?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
In typical MMOs power increases as a partial function of Player Skill. Player Skill is the element missing from EVE (just as it's missing from buying items in item shops -- even though typical F2P progression without buying stuff is the same)
It's a really big difference.
Partial being keyword here.
Main variable in that function in your typical mmo is time spent. In eve there is also time spent variable, but it's much less important than in lvl based mmos. And for sure there is also skill variable, claiming otherwise is being in denial. I can't just pick random skills and hope for the best, can't fit random stuff on ship and be viable etc.
Uh, how is time less important in a game where your character's capabilities are 100% based on time?
A completely new player to WOW can be 80% to the top of progression (aka max level) within a couple months. A new EVE player would be nowhere near that effective in two months. Not even close. Time is a much more important factor in EVE than level-based MMOs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Not really. I'd rather pay a set fee a month and just keep it the way it is instead of a cash shop approach. I don't see how it's going to be more accessible unless I shell out $15 a month to learn maybe 15 skills when I can learn way more the way it is now in that time frame. And F2P draws a certain..community that I don't like.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
I dislike training over time, like in EVE, you go up in skill for not doing anything.
I dislike cash shops.
I prefer to play a game where my character is measured in hours played, and content completed.
I think of my character as living in teh game world. And the progression as the characters career.
So, a month went by for me, but I didn't log on to the game. That means, ZERO time went by for my character living in the game world. So I don't want my character to make any progression, not with days of me paying a sub, not with cash in a shop.
I only want my character to progress, as he accomplishes his career in the game world, that is doing quests, killing mobs, or crafting is you're a crafter.
I think of my character like a soldier, or any sort of real progression. You start as a private, you go up the ranks, and if you're good, you make general.
you don't pay 50 bucks to be general. You don't sit around and just wait to be the general. You ahve to fight battles, and win.
So when a game offers a way to skip that part, I'm like, why would I want to play that game? The progression, IS the game, and my Character is only alive when I log on.
It doesn't matter if I pay a subscription fee for a whole year. If I only play one hour, the character isn't a year old, he's only one hour old.
If he's only done one quest, he's a newb, a grunt, that's only done one quest.
If I've played him for 400 hours, he's experienced, a veteran, he's done many, many quests.
Doesn't matter if I play that 400 hours in 10 weeks, or a year, or two years.
I want that 400 hours of character progression, and I only want it to happen when my character is in the game, and earning XP, with no other way to progress or skip those hours.
So how are you going to combat the millionare lobbyist that buys off the general and makes him bark like a dog? A.K.A. real players that play and level avatars just to sell them to the highest bidder. Try to read and understand this:
YOU CANNOT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO CONTROL EVERY ASPECT OF EVERY GAMER!
So stop with the control freak tactics and let the people paying control their own destinies and stop trying to impose your will on them.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
Gringing is done on other thing than skill in EVE so I really don't see the pertinance of that.
I think you are attibuting an effect to real time training that would be also true if you used any other from of progression in an EVE type game. Most people would specialize & they would gradually expand ther skill from there.
In short, I don't agree with you.
I'm not sure I get your point. If I choose to grind something like Caldari standing in EvE, you are saying that is the same as being forced to grind levels in another game?
No, Thats being forced to grind faction point like in other game, it has nothing to do with lvl. In EVE, sp are the "lvl" & they are gain purely by (sub + time).
Regarding the second paragraph, the only game that has come close, in my experience was SWG (Pre-CU at least, as I don't have much experience CU/NGE). Using a skill 'cap and trade' system encouraged specialization and reliance on other players. That said, I remember spending hours crafting and setting up camp sites outside Naboo for Master Ranger. Or, hours crafting wall modules and eventually housing deeds for Master Architect. Hours were also spent macro-dancing for Master Entertainer. Alternately, I have not spent any time grinding skills in EvE. No, what you did though, is grind on other things, like isk, endless cat & mouse pvp game, etc. I really don't see how it has anything to do with the real time acquisiton of skill mechanic. So, in short, I don't agree with you. But really, if we all agree, what would we have to talk about?
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but I totally agree with you on your last sentence.
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
I'm rich. After a year of off line offline training, I'll be super powerful, right? I'll have enough ISK to buy insurance, ships, and I'll know how to scout, how to make alliances and all that? I'll know how to equip my ship, which one to use in situations, the political landscape, etc, because you can learn all that simply from reading? Right.
But wait, your cash shop system will fix everything. I buy skills, taking it slow and only get skills to get to T2. I bought my skills, I am not going to start out in a frigate and spend time earning ISK to buy a T2, cuz see, THAT would be a waste of money and time. So you'll need to put ships in the cash shop. Now with my skillz and ship, I'm going to null sec. I'm not going to pay all that money to get powerful, then stay in pussy high sec! So because I bought all my stuff, I get "blowed" up again and again, probably against PVE opponents because I have no idea what I'm doing, and I'm losing $10 per ship for every lesson.
This game would never have taken off with your system. People who payed for stuff and skipped everything would likely quit, and economic and industrial growth would be slow and probably never grow into what it is now. If you change it now, it would only benefit the veterans, who don't need it. If they want another character, they can buy it with ISK.
Bottomline, for typical MMOs and Eve, time + effort = power. In Eve, you don't have control of the effort for skills, but it is clear you have to spend time and effort in other areas, and only in conjunction with skills does that equal power. So boiled down, your petty grip is that because you don't have control over every aspect of "leveling," it takes no effort. I'm sure CCP tweaked the system in their favor, but their systems works. If it was really as bad as you say, players would have quit long ago.
And guess what? For typical MMOs, they control how fast you advance your skills by the amount of exp you get per mob/quest.
Originally posted by Axehilt Uh, how is time less important in a game where your character's capabilities are 100% based on time? A completely new player to WOW can be 80% to the top of progression (aka max level) within a couple months. A new EVE player would be nowhere near that effective in two months. Not even close. Time is a much more important factor in EVE than level-based MMOs.
The difference and point is, that in EVE you do not have nor need to 'get max level'. The goal isn't to be able to fly every single ship in the game and perform at everything with maximum efficiency. That is what WoW concept is, to progress towards designed goal - level cap. In EVE there is no such goal thus not even progression.
The game works on completely different principles...
Not really. I'd rather pay a set fee a month and just keep it the way it is instead of a cash shop approach. I don't see how it's going to be more accessible unless I shell out $15 a month to learn maybe 15 skills when I can learn way more the way it is now in that time frame. And F2P draws a certain..community that I don't like.
You choose to see it like that. You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
Its cool, I have no problem with that.
I'm just asking a question & proposing a solution to what "I" think is a nuissance here, thats all.
Uh, how is time less important in a game where your character's capabilities are 100% based on time?
A completely new player to WOW can be 80% to the top of progression (aka max level) within a couple months. A new EVE player would be nowhere near that effective in two months. Not even close. Time is a much more important factor in EVE than level-based MMOs.
The difference and point is, that in EVE you do not have nor need to 'get max level'. The goal isn't to be able to fly every single ship in the game and perform at everything with maximum efficiency. That is what WoW concept is, to progress towards designed goal - level cap. In EVE there is no such goal thus not even progression.
The game works on completely different principles...
No it doesn't... The ruling principal in a game is to have fun.
If anything what you're saying strenghten the fact the time component in the skill training in EVE is, like I'm saying, meaningless/useless.
Not really. I'd rather pay a set fee a month and just keep it the way it is instead of a cash shop approach. I don't see how it's going to be more accessible unless I shell out $15 a month to learn maybe 15 skills when I can learn way more the way it is now in that time frame. And F2P draws a certain..community that I don't like.
You choose to see it like that. You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
Its cool, I have no problem with that.
I'm just asking question & proposing a solution to what "I" think is a nuissance here, thats all.
I see your point. I'm wondering how you can't see time based learning as being good for a casual player who doesn't have much time, but still wants to stay up to date without spending $$$ on a f2p game. I am just stating my opinion, don't put words in my mouth by saying I don't want to see anything -_-
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Originally posted by Nekrataal If anything what you're saying strenghten the fact the time component in the skill trianing in EVE is, like I'm saying, meaningless/useless.
Yes, when you do not understand something it might appear meaningless and useless...
Not really. I'd rather pay a set fee a month and just keep it the way it is instead of a cash shop approach. I don't see how it's going to be more accessible unless I shell out $15 a month to learn maybe 15 skills when I can learn way more the way it is now in that time frame. And F2P draws a certain..community that I don't like.
You choose to see it like that. You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
Its cool, I have no problem with that.
I'm just asking question & proposing a solution to what "I" think is a nuissance here, thats all.
I'm not wanting to see anything. I see your point. I am just stating my opinion, don't put words in my mouth -_-
Whatever... I'm not putting words in your month, honestly I don't see how yo came to that.
I'm glad that you have an opininon. Its all good, now you can stop. Ty
I'm not sure I get your point. If I choose to grind something like Caldari standing in EvE, you are saying that is the same as being forced to grind levels in another game?
No, Thats being forced to grind faction point like in other game, it has nothing to do with lvl. In EVE, sp are the "lvl" & they are gain purely by (sub + time).
Regarding the second paragraph, the only game that has come close, in my experience was SWG (Pre-CU at least, as I don't have much experience CU/NGE). Using a skill 'cap and trade' system encouraged specialization and reliance on other players. That said, I remember spending hours crafting and setting up camp sites outside Naboo for Master Ranger. Or, hours crafting wall modules and eventually housing deeds for Master Architect. Hours were also spent macro-dancing for Master Entertainer. Alternately, I have not spent any time grinding skills in EvE. No, what you did though, is grind on other things, like isk, endless cat & mouse pvp game, etc. I really don't see how it has anything to do with the real time acquisiton of skill mechanic. So, in short, I don't agree with you. But really, if we all agree, what would we have to talk about?
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but I totally agree with you on your last sentence.
/cheers
Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Alright folks. I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if there is one that is better, objectively, than the other, when it's simply not the case. There are two types of gamers. Those who love the destination and those who love the journey. I remember even back in the old SWG when I unlocked my first holocron and did the entertainer grind. I made more friends in the Coronet cantina in those weeks than I did in the countless Mokk camp raids out on the rim or the Squill cave spamming cone of fire 3 with Commando.
F2P games are designed with the first type of gamer in mind. Someone who wants to jump right into the fight without spending 3 months earning the skills and armor and equipment via in-game time investment. People that crave action and don't really care about things like economy or immersion. There are a lot of people like that out there and I'm not passing judgement, just stating fact.
Subscription-based games are designed for, let's say, a more patient player base. People who view the time spent earning levels and skills as an investment instead of a payment. I wouldn't give up the feeling of accomplishment that I get by reaching the level cap after an arduous grind (Aion pre 2.0, anyone?) I pay $15 a month to enjoy the journey through a story driven world that allows for immersion. Doesn't make P2P the best type of game, simply more geared towards my tastes.
Figure out the type of person you are and pick your type of game accordingly.
You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
That's what I call it >.>
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
I dislike training over time, like in EVE, you go up in skill for not doing anything.
I dislike cash shops.
I prefer to play a game where my character is measured in hours played, and content completed.
I think of my character as living in teh game world. And the progression as the characters career.
So, a month went by for me, but I didn't log on to the game. That means, ZERO time went by for my character living in the game world. So I don't want my character to make any progression, not with days of me paying a sub, not with cash in a shop.
I only want my character to progress, as he accomplishes his career in the game world, that is doing quests, killing mobs, or crafting is you're a crafter.
I think of my character like a soldier, or any sort of real progression. You start as a private, you go up the ranks, and if you're good, you make general.
you don't pay 50 bucks to be general. You don't sit around and just wait to be the general. You ahve to fight battles, and win.
So when a game offers a way to skip that part, I'm like, why would I want to play that game? The progression, IS the game, and my Character is only alive when I log on.
It doesn't matter if I pay a subscription fee for a whole year. If I only play one hour, the character isn't a year old, he's only one hour old.
If he's only done one quest, he's a newb, a grunt, that's only done one quest.
If I've played him for 400 hours, he's experienced, a veteran, he's done many, many quests.
Doesn't matter if I play that 400 hours in 10 weeks, or a year, or two years.
I want that 400 hours of character progression, and I only want it to happen when my character is in the game, and earning XP, with no other way to progress or skip those hours.
So how are you going to combat the millionare lobbyist that buys off the general and makes him bark like a dog? A.K.A. real players that play and level avatars just to sell them to the highest bidder. Try to read and understand this:
YOU CANNOT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO CONTROL EVERY ASPECT OF EVERY GAMER!
So stop with the control freak tactics and let the people paying control their own destinies and stop trying to impose your will on them.
I see no problem with that. That character has completed all the content INSIDE the game world.
I don't care if someone else controls taht character, it doesn't affect the rules of the game world.
If you want to buy a max level toon, go ahead. Doesn't bother me in the least.
The rules still apply to all characters exactly the same as they did before you bought the character.
I'm not trying to control you at all.
I simply want a consistent game world to play in.
DAoC, for example, works just fine. You level your character inside the game world. I don't see how that is controlling anyone.
Nothing wrong with real-time training. Nothing wrong with cash shops, if that's the way a game is designed. So, no - real time training isn't worse since there is nothing wrong with either. I've played games that use both and it's fine.
It's funny how folks try to judge mmo's against some high ideal...as if there was some great standard to compare these games to.
Its not about standard or ideals... yes there's something wrong with real time training in an MMO as its just a delayed cash shop. Why the delay seriously? Can't you admit that its basicly just a cash shop & get done with it. jeez.
But hey, if you have no problem with it. Its all good.
there is nothing wrong with real time training in an MMO, I prefer it to XP because I have less time to play the game than a lot of players. The way CCP has done it with EVE online you can be PVP viable in 2 weeks easily, so it's not exaclty constraining.
MORE ON TOPIC:
I do not associate time based with cash store at all, it's equal to players who start at the same time regardless of the income they have as long as they can afford the monthly fee (after all, no game allows you to progress without the subscription, at least ever since eve changed that).
I actually wrote a large post here then decided against it for this short one.
If such a system was implemented then diversity in the game would be shortened. One could simply buy his character into manufacturing status and supply himself rather than purchasing sships/items from the market. Sure, they can train the skills anyway but why would you interfere your combat training with manufacturing if it wasnt your gig. Unless you could purchase that skill and not waste the time.
Time based without the option to purchase your skills creates diversity and is a part of the over all success to the market. Plain and simple.
Originally posted by NekrataalBut really, saying that I don't understand without backing up your claim with any logic doesn't give you much credibility tbh.
Um...what would be a point arguing your backup lacking claims such as 'skill points = levels'?
People already tried to explain to you the difference but you either ignore the points they make or you do not understand the skill system thus you cannot even understand what they are telling you...
I am not saying you have to 'agree' and like the skill system but you have at least to understand it.
Alright folks. I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if there is one that is better, objectively, than the other, when it's simply not the case. There are two types of gamers. Those who love the destination and those who love the journey. I remember even back in the old SWG when I unlocked my first holocron and did the entertainer grind. I made more friends in the Coronet cantina in those weeks than I did in the countless Mokk camp raids out on the rim or the Squill cave spamming cone of fire 3 with Commando.
F2P games are designed with the first type of gamer in mind. Someone who wants to jump right into the fight without spending 3 months earning the skills and armor and equipment via in-game time investment. People that crave action and don't really care about things like economy or immersion. There are a lot of people like that out there and I'm not passing judgement, just stating fact.
Subscription-based games are designed for, let's say, a more patient player base. People who view the time spent earning levels and skills as an investment instead of a payment. I wouldn't give up the feeling of accomplishment that I get by reaching the level cap after an arduous grind (Aion pre 2.0, anyone?) I pay $15 a month to enjoy the journey through a story driven world that allows for immersion. Doesn't make P2P the best type of game, simply more geared towards my tastes.
Figure out the type of person you are and pick your type of game accordingly.
I agree. Generally, F2P and P2P are different games for different types of players.
I want a game where everything is consistent in the game world. I want the characters to exist only when they are logged on, and to make progress only when they do the content.
If you don't have time for that, play something else.
You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
That's what I call it >.>
Well, you have a funny way of seeing things... thats all I'll say.
You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
That's what I call it >.>
Well, you have a funny way of seeing things... thats all I'll say.
::scratch head::
I never said I don't see or don't want to see how that business model can work. I just said I prefer the way it is now. See it now?
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
What the heck? You want to give the developer money to avoid a time sink created by them? This is just so sick IMO - the developers make the obstacles and you want to pay the developers to avoid them. This can be SO exploited by them.
Anyway, the time is there to avoid people from doing everything, a sandbox game in which everyone effectively does everything prevents any economy and "society" from happening.
Now something I believe that should happen is for EVE to add the possibility of earning skill points by playing the game, if you want to get that level 5 skill and fast then dedicate your game time to accelerate the process. And include some "rested" skill points like the rested XP systems in conventional MMOs.
Comments
I get your point. But I prefer real time training simply because I don't have a lot of time for games, and I don't want to be limited by that. For people who want to level as they play, there's tons of games for that. And I don't want EVE to turn to a buy to win cash shop game, so imo it should stay the way it is
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
It wouldn't turn EVE in a buy to win. Thats the thing! The game isn't design that way. Aren't EVE palyer constantly saying that skills aren't everthing, experience is. I think you don't see that it would make the game a lot more accessible for people like you, on the contrary.
I'm not sure I get your point. If I choose to grind something like Caldari standing in EvE, you are saying that is the same as being forced to grind levels in another game?
Regarding the second paragraph, the only game that has come close, in my experience was SWG (Pre-CU at least, as I don't have much experience CU/NGE). Using a skill 'cap and trade' system encouraged specialization and reliance on other players. That said, I remember spending hours crafting and setting up camp sites outside Naboo for Master Ranger. Or, hours crafting wall modules and eventually housing deeds for Master Architect. Hours were also spent macro-dancing for Master Entertainer. Alternately, I have not spent any time grinding skills in EvE. So, in short, I don't agree with you. But really, if we all agree, what would we have to talk about?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Uh, how is time less important in a game where your character's capabilities are 100% based on time?
A completely new player to WOW can be 80% to the top of progression (aka max level) within a couple months. A new EVE player would be nowhere near that effective in two months. Not even close. Time is a much more important factor in EVE than level-based MMOs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Not really. I'd rather pay a set fee a month and just keep it the way it is instead of a cash shop approach. I don't see how it's going to be more accessible unless I shell out $15 a month to learn maybe 15 skills when I can learn way more the way it is now in that time frame. And F2P draws a certain..community that I don't like.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
So how are you going to combat the millionare lobbyist that buys off the general and makes him bark like a dog? A.K.A. real players that play and level avatars just to sell them to the highest bidder. Try to read and understand this:
YOU CANNOT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO CONTROL EVERY ASPECT OF EVERY GAMER!
So stop with the control freak tactics and let the people paying control their own destinies and stop trying to impose your will on them.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but I totally agree with you on your last sentence.
/cheers
I'm rich. After a year of off line offline training, I'll be super powerful, right? I'll have enough ISK to buy insurance, ships, and I'll know how to scout, how to make alliances and all that? I'll know how to equip my ship, which one to use in situations, the political landscape, etc, because you can learn all that simply from reading? Right.
But wait, your cash shop system will fix everything. I buy skills, taking it slow and only get skills to get to T2. I bought my skills, I am not going to start out in a frigate and spend time earning ISK to buy a T2, cuz see, THAT would be a waste of money and time. So you'll need to put ships in the cash shop. Now with my skillz and ship, I'm going to null sec. I'm not going to pay all that money to get powerful, then stay in pussy high sec! So because I bought all my stuff, I get "blowed" up again and again, probably against PVE opponents because I have no idea what I'm doing, and I'm losing $10 per ship for every lesson.
This game would never have taken off with your system. People who payed for stuff and skipped everything would likely quit, and economic and industrial growth would be slow and probably never grow into what it is now. If you change it now, it would only benefit the veterans, who don't need it. If they want another character, they can buy it with ISK.
Bottomline, for typical MMOs and Eve, time + effort = power. In Eve, you don't have control of the effort for skills, but it is clear you have to spend time and effort in other areas, and only in conjunction with skills does that equal power. So boiled down, your petty grip is that because you don't have control over every aspect of "leveling," it takes no effort. I'm sure CCP tweaked the system in their favor, but their systems works. If it was really as bad as you say, players would have quit long ago.
And guess what? For typical MMOs, they control how fast you advance your skills by the amount of exp you get per mob/quest.
The difference and point is, that in EVE you do not have nor need to 'get max level'. The goal isn't to be able to fly every single ship in the game and perform at everything with maximum efficiency. That is what WoW concept is, to progress towards designed goal - level cap. In EVE there is no such goal thus not even progression.
The game works on completely different principles...
You choose to see it like that. You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
Its cool, I have no problem with that.
I'm just asking a question & proposing a solution to what "I" think is a nuissance here, thats all.
No it doesn't... The ruling principal in a game is to have fun.
If anything what you're saying strenghten the fact the time component in the skill training in EVE is, like I'm saying, meaningless/useless.
I see your point. I'm wondering how you can't see time based learning as being good for a casual player who doesn't have much time, but still wants to stay up to date without spending $$$ on a f2p game. I am just stating my opinion, don't put words in my mouth by saying I don't want to see anything -_-
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
Yes, when you do not understand something it might appear meaningless and useless...
Whatever... I'm not putting words in your month, honestly I don't see how yo came to that.
I'm glad that you have an opininon. Its all good, now you can stop. Ty
Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Lets agree to disagree ok?
But really, saying that I don't understand without backing up your claim with any logic doesn't give you much credibility tbh.
Alright folks. I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if there is one that is better, objectively, than the other, when it's simply not the case. There are two types of gamers. Those who love the destination and those who love the journey. I remember even back in the old SWG when I unlocked my first holocron and did the entertainer grind. I made more friends in the Coronet cantina in those weeks than I did in the countless Mokk camp raids out on the rim or the Squill cave spamming cone of fire 3 with Commando.
F2P games are designed with the first type of gamer in mind. Someone who wants to jump right into the fight without spending 3 months earning the skills and armor and equipment via in-game time investment. People that crave action and don't really care about things like economy or immersion. There are a lot of people like that out there and I'm not passing judgement, just stating fact.
Subscription-based games are designed for, let's say, a more patient player base. People who view the time spent earning levels and skills as an investment instead of a payment. I wouldn't give up the feeling of accomplishment that I get by reaching the level cap after an arduous grind (Aion pre 2.0, anyone?) I pay $15 a month to enjoy the journey through a story driven world that allows for immersion. Doesn't make P2P the best type of game, simply more geared towards my tastes.
Figure out the type of person you are and pick your type of game accordingly.
-Mizzium
Originally posted by Nekrataal:
Whatever... I'm not putting words in your month
Originally posted by Nekrataal:
You don't want see that the buisness model could be tweak to get rid of the useless time component & remain very balanced & even more active, accessible, fun & competive.
That's what I call it >.>
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
I see no problem with that. That character has completed all the content INSIDE the game world.
I don't care if someone else controls taht character, it doesn't affect the rules of the game world.
If you want to buy a max level toon, go ahead. Doesn't bother me in the least.
The rules still apply to all characters exactly the same as they did before you bought the character.
I'm not trying to control you at all.
I simply want a consistent game world to play in.
DAoC, for example, works just fine. You level your character inside the game world. I don't see how that is controlling anyone.
there is nothing wrong with real time training in an MMO, I prefer it to XP because I have less time to play the game than a lot of players. The way CCP has done it with EVE online you can be PVP viable in 2 weeks easily, so it's not exaclty constraining.
MORE ON TOPIC:
I do not associate time based with cash store at all, it's equal to players who start at the same time regardless of the income they have as long as they can afford the monthly fee (after all, no game allows you to progress without the subscription, at least ever since eve changed that).
I actually wrote a large post here then decided against it for this short one.
If such a system was implemented then diversity in the game would be shortened. One could simply buy his character into manufacturing status and supply himself rather than purchasing sships/items from the market. Sure, they can train the skills anyway but why would you interfere your combat training with manufacturing if it wasnt your gig. Unless you could purchase that skill and not waste the time.
Time based without the option to purchase your skills creates diversity and is a part of the over all success to the market. Plain and simple.
Um...what would be a point arguing your backup lacking claims such as 'skill points = levels'?
People already tried to explain to you the difference but you either ignore the points they make or you do not understand the skill system thus you cannot even understand what they are telling you...
I am not saying you have to 'agree' and like the skill system but you have at least to understand it.
I agree. Generally, F2P and P2P are different games for different types of players.
I want a game where everything is consistent in the game world. I want the characters to exist only when they are logged on, and to make progress only when they do the content.
If you don't have time for that, play something else.
Well, you have a funny way of seeing things... thats all I'll say.
::scratch head::
I never said I don't see or don't want to see how that business model can work. I just said I prefer the way it is now. See it now?
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
What the heck? You want to give the developer money to avoid a time sink created by them? This is just so sick IMO - the developers make the obstacles and you want to pay the developers to avoid them. This can be SO exploited by them.
Anyway, the time is there to avoid people from doing everything, a sandbox game in which everyone effectively does everything prevents any economy and "society" from happening.
Now something I believe that should happen is for EVE to add the possibility of earning skill points by playing the game, if you want to get that level 5 skill and fast then dedicate your game time to accelerate the process. And include some "rested" skill points like the rested XP systems in conventional MMOs.