Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
So you admit that you don't even have to play in relation to one more EvE mechanic. lol
To be fair thought, you do have to do some grind for research or the 0.8 clones or the espionage agent. But, what does it have to do with the OP?
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I edited it to make more sense, might help.
Idk why you insist on this as it has nothing to do with the topic.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
At this point you are on a strawman quest... or we just don't get each other.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
You can't do anything in EVE without the skill to properly intereact, at a competitive lvl, with the game content. I think, thats where we split. Those skills are gain through a fail mechanic that is quite close to cash shop & which I call "Delayed cash shop". I pointed out enough the logic behind my claim, but I can do it one more time.( see below)
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
The cash shop paradigme is as follow: ( money = progression/power*)
In a real time training game, money in the equation equal ( sub + time).
* We are not talking about absolute power here, just a form of in game strenght/capabilities.
To me the time component is completly superfluous & is draging the game down when offered as the only way to get skills.
---------------------
I Feel like we are talking about two different thing. ><;
edited in yellow as the sentence was unclear & didn't quite say qhat I wanted.
"don't have to play in relation to one or more EvE mechanics" doesn't make sense. I mean, I choose if I want to participate in missions, exploration, playing the markets etc. I can also choose not to participate in those aspects of the game. These are player options and not sure why you felt it was worth singling out. As far as it having to do with the OP, grinding entered the conversation after the OP and you chose to discuss it. It is a factor in the difference between time based and action based training so certainly seems related.
Thanks for the edit, not sure it helped much. You are stating a position on real time training, so discussing the alternatives is related to the topic whether you believe them admissible or not.
Going to go with not getting each other. I am responding to how I interpret your statements. Not sure where the straw man is but if you are on a quest to dismiss discussion, by all means I can't stop you from doing so.
Now as far as doing anything, as I said, specialization and interdependency. If you can do it yourself, get a corp mate and work together. It is an MMO after all.
So, we are certainly talking about two different things. I'm talking about an MMO and you seem to be talking about a single-player game. Joking aside, I have a different view as to the merit of the timed training so sure, I can see how it looks like we are talking about different things when we are actually just coming at it from very different positions.
Anyhow, we're going in circles now. You don't like the system, I get it. I like the system and assume you get that. I hope you enjoy playing what you play and maybe you can lean on the Perpetuum team. That game is young. Maybe they'll see the genius some of us seem to be missing.
Originally posted by Nekrataal
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
I'll have to say its a definite NO. (at least for me)
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
Perhaps. But what I pay cash for over time is access to an entertaining virtual world which I can participate in and make progress in a variety of areas, including skills I suppose, but they are not the main point of the game actually.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
I suppose it seems worse to you, if you have some goal in mind where you believe operating a certain ship or doing a certain activity is your "end game", but if you approach it in terms of just participating in the game world based on your knowledge of it then it really isn't important, much less "worse".
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
I like the fact that my characters progress to some degree, even if I don't play, and the cost is minimal. I've done cash shops, and paid far too much for too little reward in all of them. The time based system may frustrate some, but its ultimately totally fair, no one can progress any faster than I, regardless of how much time they have to put into the game.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
The timer never really bothered me, in fact, I always saw it as the game's strength in fact.
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Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
Even if what you predict about game population is true, it doesn't mean it would be a better game, especially for the 330K folks who are enjoying the current model.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
PLEX does not "prey" on anyone, the people I know who purchase them did so willingly, and in fact were grateful that it enabled them to skip boring PVE activities and focus entirely on PVP only.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
Well, if it really bothers you that much, you can buy a bunch o' PLEX, sell them for 10 or 20 billion ISK and purchase a character that lets you skip all that useless waiting. You probably won't have a clue how to actually utilize your new found super powers, but go ahead, you'll make for some entertaining kill mails.
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
And IMO, it would be less so.
In the end, there's no real better or worse for either model, just two different ways to make revenue I suppose. But remember, the revenue model of an MMORPG greatly influences its game play mechnaics, and in general cash shop model games have proven to be something I don't really care for.
I don't know what's WORST. This god damn thread, or the quote I won't reference at all.
It seems a lot of EVE players agree that it isn't a good idea. I'm glad this wasn't the devs plan, or else I would cancel my sub. I'm off to bed now, I'll check back with this interesting thread tomorrow.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
---------------------------------------
Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
Nothing else in the game has to change. Keep the old real time training mechanic of buying skills with isk & set them for training as you have to keep an in game way to earn skills obviously.
The pricing would have to be a bit lower than the current one though, but its only fair buisness, as they would make a lot more transactions & a lot more money that way.
Something acceptable for me could go something like this:
0.25$ [1.50] for a lvl 1 skill
0.50$ [3] for a lvl 2 skill
0.75$ [6] for a lvl 3 skill
1.00$ [10] for a lvl 4 skill
1.50$ [20] for a lvl 5 skill
(Could be even lower than that as there's a ton of skills to spend money on.)
Multiply that by the current (or a revised one) skill multiplicator for the more advanced skills & voilà.
*I feel like I'm forgetting something... but it might come back to me when we start discussing the topic.
Thoughts?
I doubt you would; see it lower.
I agree tho , some skills in eve take a long time to train. And if people say yes but they are advanced skills... so i need to spend 2-4 months on one advanced skill.... thats just stupid.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
So you admit that you don't even have to play in relation to one more EvE mechanic. lol
To be fair thought, you do have to do some grind for research or the 0.8 clones or the espionage agent. But, what does it have to do with the OP?
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I edited it to make more sense, might help.
Idk why you insist on this as it has nothing to do with the topic.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
At this point you are on a strawman quest... or we just don't get each other.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
You can't do anything in EVE without the skill to properly intereact, at a competitive lvl, with the game content. I think, thats where we split. Those skills are gain through a fail mechanic that is quite close to cash shop & which I call "Delayed cash shop". I pointed out enough the logic behind my claim, but I can do it one more time.( see below)
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
The cash shop paradigme is as follow: ( money = progression/power*)
In a real time training game, money in the equation equal ( sub + time).
* We are not talking about absolute power here, just a form of in game strenght/capabilities.
To me the time component is completly superfluous & is draging the game down when offered as the only way to get skills.
---------------------
I Feel like we are talking about two different thing. ><;
edited in yellow as the sentence was unclear & didn't quite say what I wanted.
"don't have to play in relation to one or more EvE mechanics" doesn't make sense. I mean, I choose if I want to participate in missions, exploration, playing the markets etc. I can also choose not to participate in those aspects of the game. These are player options and not sure why you felt it was worth singling out. As far as it having to do with the OP, grinding entered the conversation after the OP and you chose to discuss it. It is a factor in the difference between time based and action based training so certainly seems related.
You are saying that you can choose to not play the faction grind game... yet another part of EVE you don't have to play, just like the RTT skill mechanic. But, I also said that wasn't entirely true as you definitly have to gind faction for certian things.
Grinding faction is different between action & time base game how? Lets ignore that it as nothing to do with the OP for now.
Thanks for the edit, not sure it helped much. You are stating a position on real time training, so discussing the alternatives is related to the topic whether you believe them admissible or not.
Going to go with not getting each other. I am responding to how I interpret your statements. Not sure where the straw man is but if you are on a quest to dismiss discussion, by all means I can't stop you from doing so.
Now as far as doing anything, as I said, specialization and interdependency. If you can do it yourself, get a corp mate and work together. It is an MMO after all.
So, we are certainly talking about two different things. I'm talking about an MMO and you seem to be talking about a single-player game. WHAT? Joking aside, I have a different view as to the merit of the timed training so sure, I can see how it looks like we are talking about different things when we are actually just coming at it from very different positions. We sure do as, for me, it has no merit & is a waste of time & is dragging the whole game down.
Anyhow, we're going in circles now. You don't like the system, I get it. I like the system and assume you get that. I hope you enjoy playing what you play and maybe you can lean on the Perpetuum team. That game is young. Maybe they'll see the genius some of us seem to be missing. No genius... just logic.
Very little in that reply as anything to do with the Topic really. But I guess its following the main trend so far ,that is, not bringing any logical conter points to my claim in the OP.
Yes, I discussed unrelated things before as very few people seems be be/stay on topic. Should I just dismiss everything that is off the mark? That would make one boring discuss. So, yes I commented on what I found to be interesting & worth it.
This isn't going anywhere now though. Like you said, this is going in circle.
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
---------------------------------------
Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
Nothing else in the game has to change. Keep the old real time training mechanic of buying skills with isk & set them for training as you have to keep an in game way to earn skills obviously.
The pricing would have to be a bit lower than the current one though, but its only fair buisness, as they would make a lot more transactions & a lot more money that way.
Something acceptable for me could go something like this:
0.25$ [1.50] for a lvl 1 skill
0.50$ [3] for a lvl 2 skill
0.75$ [6] for a lvl 3 skill
1.00$ [10] for a lvl 4 skill
1.50$ [20] for a lvl 5 skill
(Could be even lower than that as there's a ton of skills to spend money on.)
Multiply that by the current (or a revised one) skill multiplicator for the more advanced skills & voilà.
*I feel like I'm forgetting something... but it might come back to me when we start discussing the topic.
Thoughts?
I doubt you would; see it lower.
I agree tho , some skills in eve take a long time to train. And if people say yes but they are advanced skills... so i need to spend 2-4 months on one advanced skill.... thats just stupid.
Woooh! Thats way to much! lol
There's way to many skills to train for that to be an appropriate price range. I sure wouldn't play that game. XD
Lets take an advance skill that as a x8 multiplicator. That would cost 8*20 = 160$ to train that one lvl 5 skill.... ridiculous.
If you take my price ladder, it would be 12$ to train that one lvl 5 skill. It sounds about right imo. So it would be 32$ to get that advance skill from lvl 1 to 5. It still a bit pricy for just one skill. Thats why I say it could be even lower.
I couldn't agree more. Months to train one lvl in one skill is beyond stupid.
Very little in that reply as anything to do with the Topic really. But I guess its following the main trend so far ,that is, not bringing any logical conter points to my claim in the OP.
alright, I'll take the bait one more time for the evening....
For the part in green (in your previous post), I do not have to grind any corp standing. It is strictly a choice. Corp faction standing also allows me to forego that portion of the game and allow someone else, who might enjoy that, to do it. Now, "grinding faction is different..how?": I never said grinding was different from one game to the next. I originally stated that I could choose my activity in EvE whereas, in most other MMO's, i must grind levels to reach some sort of endgame. Level/action grinding being pretty much the opposite of time based 'leveling' as to why the comparison has relevance.
As for having very little of the reply being on topic, you seem perfectly happy to perpetuate the various lines of conversation so that certainly can't be a very valid complaint. Conversations evolve and often lead into tangents that further inform the original topic or at least shed some light on a persons perspective which has potential to improve everyone's understanding. If my response was simply "I like turtles" then sure, I could see a reason to complain.
Really though, numerous people have expressed their views as to why real-time training is not worse then a cash shop and certainly many are more articulate then myself. You have also followed a trend of dismissing these outright since they do not line up with your "logic". So yeah, it'll keep going in circles...
And while my genius comment was purely a joke, I'm going to have to believe that your "logic" comment follows the same vein
At any rate, keep on keepin' on and have a nice weekend.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
I like the fact that my characters progress to some degree, even if I don't play, and the cost is minimal. I've done cash shops, and paid far too much for too little reward in all of them. The time based system may frustrate some, but its ultimately totally fair, no one can progress any faster than I, regardless of how much time they have to put into the game.
Fair? How is it fair that vets will always be on top, skill wise, because they payed for a longer periode of time & no matter how much effort you put into, it'll remain that way for a looooong time as the skill mechanic is out of the palyers hands.
Ouch, now here you reveal a lack of understanding of the skill system or why it isn't important that people who paid for a longer period of time don't really have much of an advantage, especially once you get about 6-9 months of experience under your belt. But that's not really relevant to the discussion you raised.
You judge a buisness model, but you fail to see that if done well, it can work. There's many ways to implement a F2P system & I think that EVE has the perfect setting to be a fair, balance & competitive F2P game. Again, in EVE it goes like this: experience > ressources > skills.
No, actually I've yet to experience a true cash shop game that works well. The cash shop always ends up influencing the design of the gameplay in ways I don't think is fair to any of the player base. There is no such thing as a fair, balanced & competitive F2P game. (or P2P for that matter)
--------------------------------------
Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
Even if what you predict about game population is true, it doesn't mean it would be a better game, especially for the 330K folks who are enjoying the current model.
Who's to say that those 330k ( minus all the multiple accounts to be fair ) truely enjoy the current system. Do I have to point out that EVE is the only decent space MMO? You liking it, does mean anything esle than you liking it. I'm proof that other don't.
Er, me and 330K paid subs is proof that more people are willing to pay for EVE than most any other western P2P MMO out there outside of WOW. That's pretty good proof that someone enjoys it. Of course you can point out that the game doesn't have 2M Subs as proof that more people don't and you'd be correct as well.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
PLEX does not "prey" on anyone, the people I know who purchase them did so willingly, and in fact were grateful that it enabled them to skip boring PVE activities and focus entirely on PVP only.
Nice, its in line with "I prefer to skip the game" mentality already set by the "I don't have to play" skill system. Why resist a model that would make the game a lot more accessible resulting in more pewpew if thats what you're interested in? I see, without the PLEX system, these guys would actually have to play the game now... Its quite telling about what kind of "MMO gamer" they really are tbh.
All it tells is they prefer to PVP vs doing PVE, nothing really wrong with that as most people will tell you EVE is about 75% PVE which is far too high for some folks. Why force people to play game content they don't want to? Also, what does this have to do with the discussion at hand, you're proposing a cash shop to help them skip content, game already provides such a way w/o the negative aspects of a cash shop.
I'm sorry, but yes, the PLEX system preys mostly on the noob/wannabe to feed the vets multiple accounts. You are free to be in denial though... I'm not saying that its the whole point of it, but its definitly up there.
Saying I'm in denial is no arguement, please explain how the PLEX system preys on new players. I can't see any way that it does, you are free to explain why you believe so.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
Well, if it really bothers you that much, you can buy a bunch o' PLEX, sell them for 10 or 20 billion ISK and purchase a character that lets you skip all that useless waiting. You probably won't have a clue how to actually utilize your new found super powers, but go ahead, you'll make for some entertaining kill mails.
I've already answered to this one to many time. Fail logic is fail.
Wut?
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
And IMO, it would be less so.
Ok, why? Do you have any logical train of thoughts that lead you to this conclusion that you want to share?
I think I did share why I think so, but we're not connecting for some reason.
In the end, there's no real better or worse for either model, just two different ways to make revenue I suppose. But remember, the revenue model of an MMORPG greatly influences its game play mechnaics, and in general cash shop model games have proven to be something I don't really care for.
Idk, I came up with a logical explaination as to why RTT is worst than cash shop, but eh. You can just ignore it & brush it aside. I doesn't really matter. For you it isn't worst & its alright too.
I didn't follow your logic at all, and in the end your "explaination is really based on your perception and opinion, which means youu can't really be right (or wrong) I suppose.
Keep enjoying the game man! I'm glad you found something to play that make you tick.
LOL, I currently play Fallen Earth...which has some decent stuff in its cash shop these days, go figure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason i answered it the way i did and used a couple exmples,is becuase the question is really a never ending loop.If you look at the question it asks real time,well it is ALWAYS real time,you learn skills in game,it is over time is it not?You get freebie skills offline it is over real time is it not?
So the argument becomes what is better cash shop or regular gaming or offline advancement.The obvious answer for me is regualr gaming,offline is a complete joke,i would support a cash shop game before i support an offline design.At least with a cash shop you still actually play the game,OFFLINE you are doing absolutely nothing at all,it defeats the whole purpose of playing a game imo,it really is a new wave lame design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There's way to many skills to train for that to be an appropriate price range. I sure wouldn't play that game. XD
Lets take an advance skill that as a x8 multiplicator. That would cost 8*20 = 160$ to train that one lvl 5 skill.... ridiculous.
If you take my price ladder, it would be 12$ to train that one lvl 5 skill. It sounds about right imo. So it would be 32$ to get that advance skill from lvl 1 to 5. It still a bit pricy for just one skill. Thats why I say it could be even lower.
I couldn't agree more. Months to train one lvl in one skill is beyond stupid.
I was just looking at a flat rate.
But yea i mean i already spend $35-60 on those higher level 5 skills its crazy.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Well let me say one thing. Eve completely disproves your point. Real time training works fine. The game might not be your cup of tea, but the basic design still succeeds far better than a dumb class/leveling system.
The trick with a system like this is provide a large variety of skills where the skills don't give the long time player huge advantages.
To the OP: Please tell me you're from the French part of Canada, because your English is really killing me here. Trying to outsmart people and acting all high and mighty, but with the English skill of a 4-year old.
And to give you something on topic: cash shops are fundamentally bad for players and good for the people on the other end receiving the money. With a subscription you pay a fixed amount per month and you get all content. With a cash shop the spending never ends.
Well let me say one thing. Eve completely disproves your point. Real time training works fine. The game might not be your cup of tea, but the basic design still succeeds far better than a dumb class/leveling system.
The trick with a system like this is provide a large variety of skills where the skills don't give the long time player huge advantages.
Sadly, the OP can't see that. I tried to explain that even compared to someone who's played since launch, if you invest a few months towards one path, you can be just as good as them at that one thing, like industry.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
I don't think you guys understand how great PLEXs are for the in game economy and the general performance of the games hardware. This is a player price regulated system that removed Asian ISK farmers from the game. No one has to buy GTCs, they just choose to do so.
If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG - Bill Gates
ITT: people who think that increasing numbers on a character sheet is the beginning and end of playing an MMO.
The same MMO can be different things to different people. I"m sure for some people this is what they enjoy in an MMO. Other people may like crafting, or something else.
Maybe you only care about raiding. And all three of those people could play the same game and get something out of it.
I'll start by saying that I'm sorry to have help derail my own thread. (I have a little something against EVE as I would realy love to love that game, but I just can't...) lol
Let's go back to the question the title is asking & the 1st part of the OP here please. Some people seems to freak out eveytime anyone mention their precious... Lets drop the 2nd part about EVE then. It was just the exemple I had in mind. Maybe we can stay on topic now, hopefully... we are in the pub & not on the EVE forum afterall.
IS RTT WORSE THAN A CASH SHOP?
To me it is! It fits the paradigm of a cash shop, but it ads a time component to it. In short, its what I call a "Delayed cash shop".
How does it make it a "Delayed cash shop" you ask. You can't see it? Fine... here it is again.
In a cash shop game, money = progression/"power"
In an RTT game, money in that equation is equal to a fonction related to the game sub price & the time it take to train/progress your character. I'll shorten this to (sub + time) for simplicity sake, but its obviously a little more complexe than that. So, what we are left with is pretty straight forward imo.
In an RTT game (sub + time) = money = progression/"power".
Making you wait doesn't help you learn how to play, that is a logical fallacy. You can't learn how to use something when you don't have acces to it yet. The time component is useless and a drag on any MMO's that use that model.
Those are the logical facts I propose to say that, YES, RTT is worse than cash shop. Thats my opinion... If your answer is, NO, can you at least disprove what I'm saying? So far, no one did. ( the EVE derailment didn't help, again, I'm sorry)
I'll give you an hint; Don't use the "Instead of leveling I can play the game" arguement, as it really is just a strawman.
Lets make a bullet point fact list on RTT:
- You don't have to play to progress your character.
- There is a "fix" price tag on progression.
- You can't learn to use something you don't have access to yet.
- The players are not in control of "When".
- It rewards how much you pay(& wait lol) & not how much you play.
- It favors the players who paid more without any means to close the gap.
- Competetive gameplay is lessen by an unfair playing field that you can do nothing about but wait in real time.
- Is there more? Feel free to add to this list.
That is the spirit of this thread... Lets talk about that & only that this time. I hope I get less warriors to reply from now on & more facts. It was my bad to mention EVE in the 1st place though... oh well. Whats done is done! lol
Thank you
p.s: I Wont be able to respond today. I have to go out now, but I really want to see the arguments posters are going to make to explain their answer to the question. Off topic post will be ignored. Cya
edited to change "worst" to "worse". I know there's probably tons of other mistake, but english isn't my native language. Thank you for your comprehension.
- You don't have to play to progress your character.
To me, this is a good thing. If I was going to use a cash shop, I would have to buy some things here and some things there, when I prefer a monthly fee. Cash shops are noturious for coming up more expensive than a p2p game sub.
- There is a "fix" price tag on progression.
Same for a cash shop, but literally.
- You can't learn to use something you don't have access to yet.
Since we're not talking about EVE anymore, a game can be designed to start a player off so they can do everything, but just do things better when they skill up. You can't say the above without having a game to compare to. And were not comapring games, just the system.
- The players are not in control of "When".
Again, if a game is designed in a certain way, players can have access to everything, just not as good, and developers can have a better limit to when players can access certain content. This can make it easier on devs to make a better gameplay experience.
However, in a cash shop, players can buy all the skills, which can turn all the content the devs created into easy mode that can be done quickly.
- It rewards how much you pay(& wait lol) & not how much you play.
I don't know of a RTT game that you can't be improving your character in one way while waiting for a training to finish. EVE, Perpetuum, all have this. But RTT does reward how long you wait too. Not just exclusively one.
- It favors the players who paid more without any means to close the gap.
That would be a cash shop as well, not just RTT.
- Competetive gameplay is lessen by an unfair playing field that you can do nothing about but wait in real time
Same with cash shop.
And a big plus for RTT games over CS games is RTT tends to weed out the immature community, while F2P attracts them.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Uh, how is time less important in a game where your character's capabilities are 100% based on time?
A completely new player to WOW can be 80% to the top of progression (aka max level) within a couple months. A new EVE player would be nowhere near that effective in two months. Not even close. Time is a much more important factor in EVE than level-based MMOs.
The difference and point is, that in EVE you do not have nor need to 'get max level'. The goal isn't to be able to fly every single ship in the game and perform at everything with maximum efficiency. That is what WoW concept is, to progress towards designed goal - level cap. In EVE there is no such goal thus not even progression.
The game works on completely different principles...
No it doesn't... The ruling principal in a game is to have fun.
If anything what you're saying strenghten the fact the time component in the skill training in EVE is, like I'm saying, meaningless/useless.
Man, you should read your responses. Not one thing you have said makes any sense at all! The biggest problem Eve had with skill training was having to devote some initial skill training to learning skills, they are finally removing that after recognizing it is an issue. In Eve you can be good a one or two things in a months training time, no matter if you play it 24/7 or just an evening or two a week. That is the true genius of skill training.
The Class/Level system is just a huge joke on the playing populace because of lazy developers who want to shoehorn you into a niche and force you to devote significant playing time to the game to get anywhere. I truely feel sorry for you if you cannot see that.
How can you think having to devote significant time playing a game to achieve significant advancement is fun? Sounds perverted to me, more like work than fun.
1- You don't have to play to progress your character.
To me, this is a good thing. If I was going to use a cash shop, I would have to buy some things here and some things there, when I prefer a monthly fee. Cash shops are noturious for coming up more expensive than a p2p game sub.
I understand that you perfer a single charge every month than having to do many micro transactions & i'm the same. The payment model doesn't have much to do with the main point here, which is "You don't have to play". Beside the fact that in RTT the SUB is in the "price tag" equation.
I think most people confuse "How a system works" with "How the greedy corporate use that system" tbh. The only thing notorious here, is how greedy savage capitalism has made the suits. Don't blame the tool, blame to people that abuse it to dig in peoples wallet. This is not to say that I prefer the F2P model. Like I said above, like you, I like the monthly sub model best.
2- There is a "fix" price tag on progression.
Same for a cash shop, but literally.
Thats exactly my point. CS is less convulated than RTT, it doesn't hide behind a timer, which make RRT worse in this matter imo.
3- You can't learn to use something you don't have access to yet.
Since we're not talking about EVE anymore, a game can be designed to start a player off so they can do everything, but just do things better when they skill up. You can't say the above without having a game to compare to. And were not comapring games, just the system.
Ok, fair enough, but it still has flaws. Its nice to have access to everything, but even in such a system, you wont be able to compete with the vets as the pace in a game is always set by the top players & not the bottom ones. You are a peasant & they are the lords & there's nothing you can do about it but wait in real time. Its like a slap in the face if you ask me. a.k.a. You can play the game, but know your place commoner. /slap ( At least until you've payed long enough to become a vet. :P)
* See # 7
4- The players are not in control of "When".
Again, if a game is designed in a certain way, players can have access to everything, just not as good, and developers can have a better limit to when players can access certain content. This can make it easier on devs to make a better gameplay experience.
That relates to #3 I guess. My point still stands... You are not in control of "When" you WILL be just as good. It sure does limite a player! Not the way to design a game imo... Are we at the point where games are design to be easy on the devs at he expense of players fun? Look at FFXIV. The game failed in part because the design is limiting the player & make it easy for the devs. Didn't work out to well. >.<;
However, in a cash shop, players can buy all the skills, which can turn all the content the devs created into easy mode that can be done quickly.
Well, thats called freedom of choice &, really, how does it affect you if someone can complete content faster? If the game is PvP its an another story, but then it comes down to good game design & has nothing to do with CS imo. Yup, there's good & bad games... Just don't play the bad (exploitive/unbalanced) ones. Very simple.
5- It rewards how much you pay(& wait lol) & not how much you play.
I don't know of a RTT game that you can't be improving your character in one way while waiting for a training to finish. EVE, Perpetuum, all have this. But RTT does reward how long you wait too. Not just exclusively one.
The same is true with every game, you can improve your character by other means than xp'ing/skilling/training. You're grasping for straws here... The point is, in RTT, part of the game mechanic rewards you, litterally, for how much you have paid & not how much you have played. Thats anti MMO imo & I hate it. One of the main objective of this thread is to point that out.
Rewarded for waiting... Do you find waiting rewarding? If you say yes... I will go in "Does not compute" mode. I will seriously be forced to reevaluate your credibility.
6- It favors the players who paid more without any means to close the gap.
That would be a cash shop as well, not just RTT.
Yeah... thats the point of the thread, comparing RTT to CS. This isn't a big revelation. lol Thats what I'm saying. *RTT is just like a CS but "worse"!
*read at the bottom. The discussion made me change my stance on this.
7- Competetive gameplay is lessen by an unfair playing field that you can do nothing about but wait in real time.
Same with cash shop.
Yes & no. In a CS you don't have to wait in real time. I think Its a matter of taste here though. Both have the same problem. In one, its because someone can pay more at any given time & in the other its because someone has been paying longer without any means to catch up for newer player.
I hate both btw. To me, competetiveness should come from effort within the game bondaries. a.k.a. Playing it! I see how someone could say that that model is unfair to people with with less time, but why those people insist on playing MMO's is beyond me. Originaly, MMO design is one kin to "Virtual worlds". In RL, does your work progress when you aren't there? I think not. Same goes for MMO's... but I guess to each their own.
And a big plus for RTT games over CS games is RTT tends to weed out the immature community, while F2P attracts them.
This is the truest statement made by mankind! lol
Thats a good discussion there. You made me change my position on the subject.
My stance now is that RTT is just as bad as a CS & not worse.
I'm gald that there is RTT games out there for those that likes that model. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, just that, to me, its really a bad MMO mechanic.
Comments
I don't know what's WORST. This god damn thread, or the quote I won't reference at all.
Care to back up your claim? I though so...
Why do you click on it then? That alone probably makes YOU the worst tbh.
It seems a lot of EVE players agree that it isn't a good idea. I'm glad this wasn't the devs plan, or else I would cancel my sub. I'm off to bed now, I'll check back with this interesting thread tomorrow.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
I doubt you would; see it lower.
I agree tho , some skills in eve take a long time to train. And if people say yes but they are advanced skills... so i need to spend 2-4 months on one advanced skill.... thats just stupid.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Very little in that reply as anything to do with the Topic really. But I guess its following the main trend so far ,that is, not bringing any logical conter points to my claim in the OP.
Yes, I discussed unrelated things before as very few people seems be be/stay on topic. Should I just dismiss everything that is off the mark? That would make one boring discuss. So, yes I commented on what I found to be interesting & worth it.
This isn't going anywhere now though. Like you said, this is going in circle.
Woooh! Thats way to much! lol
There's way to many skills to train for that to be an appropriate price range. I sure wouldn't play that game. XD
Lets take an advance skill that as a x8 multiplicator. That would cost 8*20 = 160$ to train that one lvl 5 skill.... ridiculous.
If you take my price ladder, it would be 12$ to train that one lvl 5 skill. It sounds about right imo. So it would be 32$ to get that advance skill from lvl 1 to 5. It still a bit pricy for just one skill. Thats why I say it could be even lower.
I couldn't agree more. Months to train one lvl in one skill is beyond stupid.
alright, I'll take the bait one more time for the evening....
For the part in green (in your previous post), I do not have to grind any corp standing. It is strictly a choice. Corp faction standing also allows me to forego that portion of the game and allow someone else, who might enjoy that, to do it. Now, "grinding faction is different..how?": I never said grinding was different from one game to the next. I originally stated that I could choose my activity in EvE whereas, in most other MMO's, i must grind levels to reach some sort of endgame. Level/action grinding being pretty much the opposite of time based 'leveling' as to why the comparison has relevance.
As for having very little of the reply being on topic, you seem perfectly happy to perpetuate the various lines of conversation so that certainly can't be a very valid complaint. Conversations evolve and often lead into tangents that further inform the original topic or at least shed some light on a persons perspective which has potential to improve everyone's understanding. If my response was simply "I like turtles" then sure, I could see a reason to complain.
Really though, numerous people have expressed their views as to why real-time training is not worse then a cash shop and certainly many are more articulate then myself. You have also followed a trend of dismissing these outright since they do not line up with your "logic". So yeah, it'll keep going in circles...
And while my genius comment was purely a joke, I'm going to have to believe that your "logic" comment follows the same vein
At any rate, keep on keepin' on and have a nice weekend.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
LOL, I currently play Fallen Earth...which has some decent stuff in its cash shop these days, go figure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ITT: people who think that increasing numbers on a character sheet is the beginning and end of playing an MMO.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
The reason i answered it the way i did and used a couple exmples,is becuase the question is really a never ending loop.If you look at the question it asks real time,well it is ALWAYS real time,you learn skills in game,it is over time is it not?You get freebie skills offline it is over real time is it not?
So the argument becomes what is better cash shop or regular gaming or offline advancement.The obvious answer for me is regualr gaming,offline is a complete joke,i would support a cash shop game before i support an offline design.At least with a cash shop you still actually play the game,OFFLINE you are doing absolutely nothing at all,it defeats the whole purpose of playing a game imo,it really is a new wave lame design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Or you can avoid advancing mechanics altogether just like EVE did.
I was just looking at a flat rate.
But yea i mean i already spend $35-60 on those higher level 5 skills its crazy.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This is perhaps the single worst thread I have seen on these forums for quite some time, quite an achievement really.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well let me say one thing. Eve completely disproves your point. Real time training works fine. The game might not be your cup of tea, but the basic design still succeeds far better than a dumb class/leveling system.
The trick with a system like this is provide a large variety of skills where the skills don't give the long time player huge advantages.
To the OP: Please tell me you're from the French part of Canada, because your English is really killing me here. Trying to outsmart people and acting all high and mighty, but with the English skill of a 4-year old.
And to give you something on topic: cash shops are fundamentally bad for players and good for the people on the other end receiving the money. With a subscription you pay a fixed amount per month and you get all content. With a cash shop the spending never ends.
Sadly, the OP can't see that. I tried to explain that even compared to someone who's played since launch, if you invest a few months towards one path, you can be just as good as them at that one thing, like industry.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
I was going to argue with you about this, but on reflection, yeah, you're right. We've officially hit rock bottom.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I don't think you guys understand how great PLEXs are for the in game economy and the general performance of the games hardware. This is a player price regulated system that removed Asian ISK farmers from the game. No one has to buy GTCs, they just choose to do so.
If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG - Bill Gates
The same MMO can be different things to different people. I"m sure for some people this is what they enjoy in an MMO. Other people may like crafting, or something else.
Maybe you only care about raiding. And all three of those people could play the same game and get something out of it.
I'll start by saying that I'm sorry to have help derail my own thread. (I have a little something against EVE as I would realy love to love that game, but I just can't...) lol
Let's go back to the question the title is asking & the 1st part of the OP here please. Some people seems to freak out eveytime anyone mention their precious... Lets drop the 2nd part about EVE then. It was just the exemple I had in mind. Maybe we can stay on topic now, hopefully... we are in the pub & not on the EVE forum afterall.
IS RTT WORSE THAN A CASH SHOP?
To me it is! It fits the paradigm of a cash shop, but it ads a time component to it. In short, its what I call a "Delayed cash shop".
How does it make it a "Delayed cash shop" you ask. You can't see it? Fine... here it is again.
In a cash shop game, money = progression/"power"
In an RTT game, money in that equation is equal to a fonction related to the game sub price & the time it take to train/progress your character. I'll shorten this to (sub + time) for simplicity sake, but its obviously a little more complexe than that. So, what we are left with is pretty straight forward imo.
In an RTT game (sub + time) = money = progression/"power".
Making you wait doesn't help you learn how to play, that is a logical fallacy. You can't learn how to use something when you don't have acces to it yet. The time component is useless and a drag on any MMO's that use that model.
Those are the logical facts I propose to say that, YES, RTT is worse than cash shop. Thats my opinion... If your answer is, NO, can you at least disprove what I'm saying? So far, no one did. ( the EVE derailment didn't help, again, I'm sorry)
I'll give you an hint; Don't use the "Instead of leveling I can play the game" arguement, as it really is just a strawman.
Lets make a bullet point fact list on RTT:
- You don't have to play to progress your character.
- There is a "fix" price tag on progression.
- You can't learn to use something you don't have access to yet.
- The players are not in control of "When".
- It rewards how much you pay(& wait lol) & not how much you play.
- It favors the players who paid more without any means to close the gap.
- Competetive gameplay is lessen by an unfair playing field that you can do nothing about but wait in real time.
- Is there more? Feel free to add to this list.
That is the spirit of this thread... Lets talk about that & only that this time. I hope I get less warriors to reply from now on & more facts. It was my bad to mention EVE in the 1st place though... oh well. Whats done is done! lol
Thank you
p.s: I Wont be able to respond today. I have to go out now, but I really want to see the arguments posters are going to make to explain their answer to the question. Off topic post will be ignored. Cya
edited to change "worst" to "worse". I know there's probably tons of other mistake, but english isn't my native language. Thank you for your comprehension.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
Man, you should read your responses. Not one thing you have said makes any sense at all! The biggest problem Eve had with skill training was having to devote some initial skill training to learning skills, they are finally removing that after recognizing it is an issue. In Eve you can be good a one or two things in a months training time, no matter if you play it 24/7 or just an evening or two a week. That is the true genius of skill training.
The Class/Level system is just a huge joke on the playing populace because of lazy developers who want to shoehorn you into a niche and force you to devote significant playing time to the game to get anywhere. I truely feel sorry for you if you cannot see that.
How can you think having to devote significant time playing a game to achieve significant advancement is fun? Sounds perverted to me, more like work than fun.
Thats a good discussion there. You made me change my position on the subject.
My stance now is that RTT is just as bad as a CS & not worse.
I'm gald that there is RTT games out there for those that likes that model. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, just that, to me, its really a bad MMO mechanic.