What the heck? You want to give the developer money to avoid a time sink created by them? This is just so sick IMO - the developers make the obstacles and you want to pay the developers to avoid them. This can be SO exploited by them.
Anyway, the time is there to avoid people from doing everything, a sandbox game in which everyone effectively does everything prevents any economy and "society" from happening.
Now something I believe that should happen is for EVE to add the possibility of earning skill points by playing the game, if you want to get that level 5 skill and fast then dedicate your game time to accelerate the process. And include some "rested" skill points like the rested XP systems in conventional MMOs.
^ This. Couldn't have said that better.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
I'm not sure I get your point. If I choose to grind something like Caldari standing in EvE, you are saying that is the same as being forced to grind levels in another game?
No, Thats being forced to grind faction point like in other game, it has nothing to do with lvl. In EVE, sp are the "lvl" & they are gain purely by (sub + time).
Regarding the second paragraph, the only game that has come close, in my experience was SWG (Pre-CU at least, as I don't have much experience CU/NGE). Using a skill 'cap and trade' system encouraged specialization and reliance on other players. That said, I remember spending hours crafting and setting up camp sites outside Naboo for Master Ranger. Or, hours crafting wall modules and eventually housing deeds for Master Architect. Hours were also spent macro-dancing for Master Entertainer. Alternately, I have not spent any time grinding skills in EvE. No, what you did though, is grind on other things, like isk, endless cat & mouse pvp game, etc. I really don't see how you can miss that it has nothing to do with the real time acquisiton of skill mechanic. So, in short, I don't agree with you. But really, if we all agree, what would we have to talk about?
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but I totally agree with you on your last sentence.
/cheers
Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
So you admit that you don't even have to play in relation to one more EvE mechanic. lol
To be fair thought, you do have to do some grind for research or the 0.8 clones or the espionage agent. But, what does it have to do with the OP?
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I edited it to make more sense, might help.
Idk why you insist on this as it has nothing to do with the topic.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
At this point you are on a strawman quest... or we just don't get each other.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
You can't do anything in EVE without the skill to properly intereact, at a competitive lvl, with the game content. I think, thats where we split. Those skills are gain through a fail mechanic that is quite close to cash shop & which I call "Delayed cash shop". I pointed out enough the logic behind my claim, but I can do it one more time.( see below)
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
The cash shop paradigme is as follow: ( money = progression/power*)
In a real time training game, money in the equation equal ( sub + time).
* We are not talking about absolute power here, just a form of in game strenght/capabilities.
To me the time component is completly superfluous & is draging the game down when offered as the only way to get skills.
---------------------
I Feel like we are talking about two different thing. ><;
edited in yellow as the sentence was unclear & didn't quite say qhat I wanted.
I don't believe it is worse than cash shop. Cash shop means I can possibly buy a carrier + skills on day one using RL cash and go and fight.
Time-based skill training means you won't be able to get into it immediately. There is a good reason why people don't learn to fight in a capital ship if they are not familiar with the combat mechanics. Its very expensive. Like in other games, you learn the basics of things, then move on to learn the more advance skills in the game. Do warcraft allow a level 1 player to have all the level 80 skills? No.
One thing you have to realise is that eve allows you to be whatever you want to be. A miner, or a manufacturer, fighter, scientist etc. If you are comparing this to an xp type game such as warcraft or allods, they are class restricted. This means that they go from level 1 to Max level and only get to allocate points in certain skills. It is restrictive in a way.
Time-based skill allows Eve to let the players choose what they want to be. They don't need to keep upping Max levels just so a player can be a jack of all trades. The only other way they can do this is by having users repeatedly use the skill over and over till they max it (Think Mortal Online). This then becomes a lot of grinding just to skill up in something. Grind tends to bring out the macro/bots if it becomes too dull. So compare this to long grinding, which is worse? Not all things will come down to what earns the most cash...it might just so happen they earn more that way, but I believe the design in itself is a good idea.
It is always a matter of perception. From where I sit, EVE and I believe Age of Conan is trying something like this, it is no different than buying a character. At least in traditional games, grind or no, when you earn a level you actually had to do something other than set a tick mark and log out. From when I played Eve, the amount of time you put in game meant absolutely nothing apart from the amount of isk you could earn. This is why I do not play Eve and why there is no chance in hell that I would pay to play any game that was like eve. You should have to actually do something in order to level, something far more than just telling the idiot game where it should train you. Why not just contact one of hte chinese farmer companies, at least that way you can put a poor chinese child to school?
But really, saying that I don't understand without backing up your claim with any logic doesn't give you much credibility tbh.
OK, I give you a straw...
In traditional RPG or MMORPG, the whole game revolves around some central part, that is usually story or character advancement.
It has beginning and end. The levels then serves as a metric of your progression towards the end of story or character advancement.
EVE Online does not use this concept. There is no end, there is no progression. Instead, you are offered different paths you can take. Each path represents some task. For each task you need resources. You can obtain the resources via various ways since there is a very large scale of what you will need - that might be ISK, materials, knowledge, players, etc. or in example skill points.
You can look at skill points as no more than resources and each task then require different and limited amount of resources and their composition.
There is more in skill system but the raw concept is something like that.[/b][/quote]
I don't believe it is worse than cash shop. Cash shop means I can possibly buy a carrier + skills on day one using RL cash and go and fight.
Time-based skill training means you won't be able to get into it immediately. There is a good reason why people don't learn to fight in a capital ship if they are not familiar with the combat mechanics. Its very expensive. Like in other games, you learn the basics of things, then move on to learn the more advance skills in the game. Do warcraft allow a level 1 player to have all the level 80 skills? No.
One thing you have to realise is that eve allows you to be whatever you want to be. A miner, or a manufacturer, fighter, scientist etc. If you are comparing this to an xp type game such as warcraft or allods, they are class restricted. This means that they go from level 1 to Max level and only get to allocate points in certain skills. It is restrictive in a way.
Time-based skill allows Eve to let the players choose what they want to be. They don't need to keep upping Max levels just so a player can be a jack of all trades. The only other way they can do this is by having users repeatedly use the skill over and over till they max it (Think Mortal Online). This then becomes a lot of grinding just to skill up in something. Grind tends to bring out the macro/bots if it becomes too dull. So compare this to long grinding, which is worse? Not all things will come down to what earns the most cash...it might just so happen they earn more that way, but I believe the design in itself is a good idea.
It is always a matter of perception. From where I sit, EVE and I believe Age of Conan is trying something like this, it is no different than buying a character. At least in traditional games, grind or no, when you earn a level you actually had to do something other than set a tick mark and log out. From when I played Eve, the amount of time you put in game meant absolutely nothing apart from the amount of isk you could earn. This is why I do not play Eve and why there is no chance in hell that I would pay to play any game that was like eve. You should have to actually do something in order to level, something far more than just telling the idiot game where it should train you. Why not just contact one of hte chinese farmer companies, at least that way you can put a poor chinese child to school?
When you play your character, you do more than just get ISK. You do missions to build up ratings with agents, you help your corp build a player owned station, you mine, you craft, you play the market, etc. The leveling is done for you, yes. But the levels are useless until you have ships to use them in, which takes earning ISK, which takes playing your character.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
What the heck? You want to give the developer money to avoid a time sink created by them? This is just so sick IMO - the developers make the obstacles and you want to pay the developers to avoid them. This can be SO exploited by them.
No as the game would be F2P, maybe you missed that part of my idea about how to make EVE a better product. Don't forget the part where I said that the pricing should be lower than what it is now because they would make a lot more transactions too. That "obstacle",as you call it, cost them a lot of money imo & is really a bad design choice. It gives a control to CCP over your gaming. If you are happy with that, more power to you.
Its funny thought to hear people complain about the Fatigue system in FFXIV when the real time training is ten time worst. rofl
Anyway, the time is there to avoid people from doing everything, a sandbox game in which everyone effectively does everything prevents any economy and "society" from happening.
Doing everything would cost way to much... only a few morons would do that & it wouldn't have much impact on anything as everything else in the game stays the same. Oh cool! You can pilot a titan! Do you have one? oups Can you build one?! oups again... Do you see that nothing will change? It will only be more accessible & fun, giving rise to much more fair PVP & competitiveness.
Lets say you start playing with your friends, you buy skills to be able to use T2 frigates or you can even decide to just go for a T1 cruisers wolf pack. 1st week in, you're already having fun & are competive in what you choose to do.
Now something I believe that should happen is for EVE to add the possibility of earning skill points by playing the game, if you want to get that level 5 skill and fast then dedicate your game time to accelerate the process. And include some "rested" skill points like the rested XP systems in conventional MMOs.
One more way to do a needed change to the god aweful RTT mechanic, but require more extensive changes to the game programming. Good Idea though & I'm all for it.
I said it before, I'm not for cash shop. I just think that, concerning EVE, it would be a sound buisness choice as they would barely have to change the game programming & it wouldn't change the game much as experience is way more valuable than skills.
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with either more time or less money in check.
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with either more money or less time in check.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with more time in check.
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with more money in check.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
Nope, I wouldn't play EVE if it was a cash shop.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with more time in check.
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with more money in check.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
Nope, I wouldn't play EVE if it was a cash shop.
Oh? But it already does....and it's ran by the players themselves....LOL Oh sweet irony!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Cash shops, get rid of them. They are probably one of the worse (not worst) things I have ever seen in ANY game and particularlly in MMO's. The game company will try to milk a cash shop for every cent if you let them. And the value to the player, well, it is minimal.
Skill while playing, I am all for that. I am also all for some form of limited off-line skilling. What a lot of the skill as you go games have are players that are forced to macro or find some other "illegal" method of skilling up to keep up. This is particularly true with players that do not have the time to invest in such play to skill games but want to play them at their own pace and schedule. While purchasing those skills might seem to be the answer, it sorely is disappointing to those that would rather do it for real. In fact, I would say that many players have quit games out of frustration from both camps; one for not being able to purchase skills and the other for not wanting to compete against deeper pockets.
What would I do? One thing is for sure, I would not have a cash shop of any kind. I would try to give a good balanced game that is worth every dollar of subscription fee. If I could not do that, I will go out of business.
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with either more time or less money in check.
I agree
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with either more money or less time in check.
Idk about this one. If EVE was F2P, money wouldn't matter much anymore... no more than it already does anyway. You are just able to access the fun of the game faster & be competive in what you choose to focus on. It just a question of taking back the control on "when" from CCP.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
You could say that, but I see it more as fun vs unfun tbh. (edit: For the majority & not just the vets I mean)
Oh? But it already does....and it's ran by the players themselves....LOL Oh sweet irony!
Explain? The only thing I know of is PLEX, but that is entirely different than buying skills.
Skill gaining is moot, as we already had it explain several times in this thread as it is automated. And why would anyone ever need to buy a skills when you can buy a slot, park it for a few months and pick up a skill guide when you decide to come back that EvE players provide for free on official forums?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with either more time or less money in check.
I agree
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with either more money or less time in check.
Idk about this one. If EVE was F2P, money wouldn't matter much anymore... no more than it already does anyway. You are just able to access the fun of the game faster & be competive in what you choose to focus on. It just a question of taking back the control on "when" from CCP.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
You could say that, but I see it more as fun vs unfun tbh. (edit: For the majority & not just the vets I mean)
Then we both see eye to eye on how you perceive casuals
Often people try to find fault when their own stance is questioned. I then ask you to replace money with time and you have your fit, so to speak.
What is fun is such a finicky word. I prefer using the term enjoyment now. And how could you increase your level of enjoyment while lowering mine? How could you even begin to measure what I or anyone else enjoys?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Cash shops, get rid of them. They are probably one of the worse (not worst) things I have ever seen in ANY game and particularlly in MMO's. The game company will try to milk a cash shop for every cent if you let them. And the value to the player, well, it is minimal.
In a WoW( for the sake of reference) type game, I agree with you 100%, but for a game like EVE, I can see it work. Thats might just be me though.
Skill while playing, I am all for that. Nice I am also all for some form of limited off-line skilling. Ok, I can agree to that. What a lot of the skill as you go games have are players that are forced to macro or find some other "illegal" method of skilling up to keep up. This is particularly true with players that do not have the time to invest in such play to skill games but want to play them at their own pace and schedule. This is part poor game design/balance & cheats. One is a common problem to all games, the other is just sad. Cheats should all die in a fire. The skill as you go mechanic particularly attract those cheats imo. While purchasing those skills might seem to be the answer, it sorely is disappointing to those that would rather do it for real. You would still be able to progress your skills in game as the RTT mechanic would still be there. In fact, I would say that many players have quit games out of frustration from both camps; one for not being able to purchase skills and the other for not wanting to compete against deeper pockets. Probably true lol
What would I do? One thing is for sure, I would not have a cash shop of any kind. I would try to give a good balanced game that is worth every dollar of subscription fee. If I could not do that, I will go out of business.
Radical, but ok. I doubt that CCP sees it that wat though.
Lets make a list the advantages & cons of going F2P in the case of EVE:
The advantages:
- free
- More accessible content
- More PVP
- More competitive from the get go
- You're more in control of "when"
- It fits the lore. ( being jack up & all & that, knowledge being downloaded, not learned)
The cons:
- Someone can buy all the skills ( Which do what exactly... whats the problem here? You still can compete against that dude in any single field of expertise for way cheaper.)
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with either more time or less money in check.
I agree
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with either more money or less time in check.
Idk about this one. If EVE was F2P, money wouldn't matter much anymore... no more than it already does anyway. You are just able to access the fun of the game faster & be competive in what you choose to focus on. It just a question of taking back the control on "when" from CCP.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
You could say that, but I see it more as fun vs unfun tbh. (edit: For the majority & not just the vets I mean)
Then we both see eye to eye on how you perceive casuals
Often people try to find fault when their own stance is questioned. I then ask you to replace money with time and you have your fit, so to speak.
What is fun is such a finicky word. I prefer using the term enjoyment now. And how could you increase your level of enjoyment while lowering mine? How could you even begin to measure what I or anyone else enjoys?
Just being honest here... Not only is this the stupidest idea I've ever heard, but you have also obviously never played the game or you would know this would never work.
Plus you can already buy skills. Buy PLEX --> Use ISK from PLEX to buy a pilot --> You have skills you didnt have before. End.
Just being honest here... Not only is this the stupidest idea I've ever heard, but you have also obviously never played the game or you would know this would never work.
You are entitled to your opinion I guess, but, please, don't spew crap, it tends to stink. I've played the game & I'm pretty sure it would work. Not only that, but it would fix a lot of the problems of the game. One of them being the PLEX system that you so kindly mention below.
Plus you can already buy skills. Buy PLEX --> Use ISK from PLEX to buy a pilot --> You have skills you didnt have before. End.
Wow... are you serious? You still have to train that skill. THAT is the whole point of the OP.
`Shark
I bet you didn't even read the thread, am I right?
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
I'll have to say its a definite NO. (at least for me)
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
Perhaps. But what I pay cash for over time is access to an entertaining virtual world which I can participate in and make progress in a variety of areas, including skills I suppose, but they are not the main point of the game actually.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
I suppose it seems worse to you, if you have some goal in mind where you believe operating a certain ship or doing a certain activity is your "end game", but if you approach it in terms of just participating in the game world based on your knowledge of it then it really isn't important, much less "worse".
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
I like the fact that my characters progress to some degree, even if I don't play, and the cost is minimal. I've done cash shops, and paid far too much for too little reward in all of them. The time based system may frustrate some, but its ultimately totally fair, no one can progress any faster than I, regardless of how much time they have to put into the game.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
The timer never really bothered me, in fact, I always saw it as the game's strength in fact.
---------------------------------------
Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
Even if what you predict about game population is true, it doesn't mean it would be a better game, especially for the 330K folks who are enjoying the current model.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
PLEX does not "prey" on anyone, the people I know who purchase them did so willingly, and in fact were grateful that it enabled them to skip boring PVE activities and focus entirely on PVP only.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
Well, if it really bothers you that much, you can buy a bunch o' PLEX, sell them for 10 or 20 billion ISK and purchase a character that lets you skip all that useless waiting. You probably won't have a clue how to actually utilize your new found super powers, but go ahead, you'll make for some entertaining kill mails.
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
And IMO, it would be less so.
In the end, there's no real better or worse for either model, just two different ways to make revenue I suppose. But remember, the revenue model of an MMORPG greatly influences its game play mechnaics, and in general cash shop model games have proven to be something I don't really care for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Forced to grind faction? That's purely an option in EvE where as the primary goal of most other games is to reach max level for 'end-game' or some similar concept and is therefore a forced grind. I could largely ignore faction standing if I were so inclined and wanted to play that way.
So you admit that you don't even have to play in relation to one more EvE mechanic. lol
To be fair thought, you do have to do some grind for research or the 0.8 clones or the espionage agent. But, what does it have to do with the OP?
As for the second part in green, again, I don't get your distinction here. Skills being independent of actions means that I choose to participate in PvP, mining, exploration, or some other activity. A contrast would be in WoW (which I also play), if I want to get better PvP gear, I must grind for honor points to get the gear. I have no other options to acquire PvP gear as it cannot be bought for gold or traded.
I edited it to make more sense, might help.
Idk why you insist on this as it has nothing to do with the topic.
I suppose part of the issue is that you are making assumptions about my game play and dismissing it as a grind whereas I considered my game time well spent in a diverse range of activities. None of these involved repeating activities with the goal of 'leveling up'.
At this point you are on a strawman quest... or we just don't get each other.
I suppose it's been repeated enough and I hate to be an echo, but it looks like it's coming down to our perception of "progression" in EvE specifically, and further, how we view "grinding". I'm not sure we'll reach a common understanding on this one, but always good to see some reasoned criticism as it does get the brain cells rubbing together.
You can't do anything in EVE without the skill to properly intereact, at a competitive lvl, with the game content. I think, thats where we split. Those skills are gain through a fail mechanic that is quite close to cash shop & which I call "Delayed cash shop". I pointed out enough the logic behind my claim, but I can do it one more time.( see below)
edit: just to correct myself, you can get previous "season" gear from PvE vendors for Justice Points. So, you can either frind PvP or grind instances. Just so I don't get flagged for a technical foul
The cash shop paradigme is as follow: ( money = progression/power*)
In a real time training game, money in the equation equal ( sub + time).
* We are not talking about absolute power here, just a form of in game strenght/capabilities.
To me the time component is completly superfluous & is draging the game down when offered as the only way to get skills.
---------------------
I Feel like we are talking about two different thing. ><;
edited in yellow as the sentence was unclear & didn't quite say qhat I wanted.
"don't have to play in relation to one or more EvE mechanics" doesn't make sense. I mean, I choose if I want to participate in missions, exploration, playing the markets etc. I can also choose not to participate in those aspects of the game. These are player options and not sure why you felt it was worth singling out. As far as it having to do with the OP, grinding entered the conversation after the OP and you chose to discuss it. It is a factor in the difference between time based and action based training so certainly seems related.
Thanks for the edit, not sure it helped much. You are stating a position on real time training, so discussing the alternatives is related to the topic whether you believe them admissible or not.
Going to go with not getting each other. I am responding to how I interpret your statements. Not sure where the straw man is but if you are on a quest to dismiss discussion, by all means I can't stop you from doing so.
Now as far as doing anything, as I said, specialization and interdependency. If you can do it yourself, get a corp mate and work together. It is an MMO after all.
So, we are certainly talking about two different things. I'm talking about an MMO and you seem to be talking about a single-player game. Joking aside, I have a different view as to the merit of the timed training so sure, I can see how it looks like we are talking about different things when we are actually just coming at it from very different positions.
Anyhow, we're going in circles now. You don't like the system, I get it. I like the system and assume you get that. I hope you enjoy playing what you play and maybe you can lean on the Perpetuum team. That game is young. Maybe they'll see the genius some of us seem to be missing.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I'm asking you the question. To me, the answer is a definite YES.
I'll have to say its a definite NO. (at least for me)
Ok
What really happen with such a system is that you pay cash, over a certain periode of time, to get access to content.
Perhaps. But what I pay cash for over time is access to an entertaining virtual world which I can participate in and make progress in a variety of areas, including skills I suppose, but they are not the main point of the game actually.
Your "entertaining virtual world" wouldn't change much.
I've never said anywhere that they were the main point, essential, yes, as they are the way/tools to interact with every single bit of the game content.
The underlined part is what makes it worst than a cash shop. Just to be clear...
I suppose it seems worse to you, if you have some goal in mind where you believe operating a certain ship or doing a certain activity is your "end game", but if you approach it in terms of just participating in the game world based on your knowledge of it then it really isn't important, much less "worse".
Thats a strawman...
You don't have to play to get what you want, face it, just like with a cash shop. You just have to pay to gain acces to some part of the game content, again, just like a cash shop.
I like the fact that my characters progress to some degree, even if I don't play, and the cost is minimal. I've done cash shops, and paid far too much for too little reward in all of them. The time based system may frustrate some, but its ultimately totally fair, no one can progress any faster than I, regardless of how much time they have to put into the game.
Fair? How is it fair that vets will always be on top, skill wise, because they payed for a longer periode of time & no matter how much effort you put into, it'll remain that way for a looooong time as the skill mechanic is out of the palyers hands.
You judge a buisness model, but you fail to see that if done well, it can work. There's many ways to implement a F2P system & I think that EVE has the perfect setting to be a fair, balance & competitive F2P game. Again, in EVE it goes like this: experience > ressources > skills.
But wait! You are limited by a stupid timer on top of it... fail.
The timer never really bothered me, in fact, I always saw it as the game's strength in fact.
To each their own
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Lets take EVE for exemple, as its pretty much the game I had in mind by starting this thread. Why not make the damn thing F2P with a cash shop where you can buy the skills you want right there & now. I garanty you that the game pop would explode.
Even if what you predict about game population is true, it doesn't mean it would be a better game, especially for the 330K folks who are enjoying the current model.
Who's to say that those 330k ( minus all the multiple accounts to be fair ) truely enjoy the current system. Do I have to point out that EVE is the only decent space MMO? You liking it, does mean anything esle than you liking it. I'm proof that other don't.
No more need for PLEX that preys on the ignorant noobs to feed the vets multiples accounts addiction.
PLEX does not "prey" on anyone, the people I know who purchase them did so willingly, and in fact were grateful that it enabled them to skip boring PVE activities and focus entirely on PVP only.
Nice, its in line with "I prefer to skip the game" mentality already set by the "I don't have to play" skill system. Why resist a model that would make the game a lot more accessible resulting in more pewpew if thats what you're interested in? I see, without the PLEX system, these guys would actually have to play the game now... Its quite telling about what kind of "MMO gamer" they really are tbh.
I'm sorry, but yes, the PLEX system preys mostly on the noob/wannabe to feed the vets multiple accounts. You are free to be in denial though... I'm not saying that its the whole point of it, but its definitly up there.
No more days/weeks/months of useless waiting to get access to what game content you are interested in, to a point. ( Going straight for a cap ship would be insane, but doable... ouch lol )
Well, if it really bothers you that much, you can buy a bunch o' PLEX, sell them for 10 or 20 billion ISK and purchase a character that lets you skip all that useless waiting. You probably won't have a clue how to actually utilize your new found super powers, but go ahead, you'll make for some entertaining kill mails.
I've already answered to this one to many time. Fail logic is fail.
The game would be much more accessible & fun (imo).
And IMO, it would be less so.
Ok, why? Do you have any logical train of thoughts that lead you to this conclusion that you want to share?
In the end, there's no real better or worse for either model, just two different ways to make revenue I suppose. But remember, the revenue model of an MMORPG greatly influences its game play mechnaics, and in general cash shop model games have proven to be something I don't really care for.
Idk, I came up with a logical explaination as to why RTT is worst than cash shop, but eh. You can just ignore it & brush it aside. I doesn't really matter. For you it isn't worst & its alright too.
Keep enjoying the game man! I'm glad you found something to play that make you tick.
Comments
^ This. Couldn't have said that better.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
The cash shop paradigme is as follow: ( money = progression/power*)
In a real time training game, money in the equation equal ( sub + time).
* We are not talking about absolute power here, just a form of in game strenght/capabilities.
To me the time component is completly superfluous & is draging the game down when offered as the only way to get skills.
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I Feel like we are talking about two different thing. ><;
edited in yellow as the sentence was unclear & didn't quite say qhat I wanted.
It is always a matter of perception. From where I sit, EVE and I believe Age of Conan is trying something like this, it is no different than buying a character. At least in traditional games, grind or no, when you earn a level you actually had to do something other than set a tick mark and log out. From when I played Eve, the amount of time you put in game meant absolutely nothing apart from the amount of isk you could earn. This is why I do not play Eve and why there is no chance in hell that I would pay to play any game that was like eve. You should have to actually do something in order to level, something far more than just telling the idiot game where it should train you. Why not just contact one of hte chinese farmer companies, at least that way you can put a poor chinese child to school?
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
OK, I give you a straw...
In traditional RPG or MMORPG, the whole game revolves around some central part, that is usually story or character advancement.
It has beginning and end. The levels then serves as a metric of your progression towards the end of story or character advancement.
EVE Online does not use this concept. There is no end, there is no progression. Instead, you are offered different paths you can take. Each path represents some task. For each task you need resources. You can obtain the resources via various ways since there is a very large scale of what you will need - that might be ISK, materials, knowledge, players, etc. or in example skill points.
You can look at skill points as no more than resources and each task then require different and limited amount of resources and their composition.
There is more in skill system but the raw concept is something like that.[/b][/quote]
When you play your character, you do more than just get ISK. You do missions to build up ratings with agents, you help your corp build a player owned station, you mine, you craft, you play the market, etc. The leveling is done for you, yes. But the levels are useless until you have ships to use them in, which takes earning ISK, which takes playing your character.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
The people who are defending EvE's inactive progression system are the same type of people who would not have a issue with a cash shop in it's place. These people most likely enjoy a system that keeps people with either more time or less money in check.
The people who are attacking it would accept a system that allowed for up to double the skill point rate gain for players that are actively logged in and gradually decreased back to normal levels the longer they player is logged out. These people would love a system to keep people with either more money or less time in check.
Both want access to a success sandbox mmorpg, which EvE has managed to become. So insults often fly around damning both play habits to certain degrees. Funny really. Sandbox fans often take condenscending stances against themepark fans for wanting things easy or simple. But seeing the responses in this thread are very reveiling of sandbox fans wanting it that way for their own playing styles as well... basically Casual vs. Hardcore
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Nope, I wouldn't play EVE if it was a cash shop.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
When you got elevenity billion skills like EVE, I can imagine RTT isn't far off.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
Oh? But it already does....and it's ran by the players themselves....LOL Oh sweet irony!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Explain? The only thing I know of is PLEX, but that is entirely different than buying skills.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
Cash shops, get rid of them. They are probably one of the worse (not worst) things I have ever seen in ANY game and particularlly in MMO's. The game company will try to milk a cash shop for every cent if you let them. And the value to the player, well, it is minimal.
Skill while playing, I am all for that. I am also all for some form of limited off-line skilling. What a lot of the skill as you go games have are players that are forced to macro or find some other "illegal" method of skilling up to keep up. This is particularly true with players that do not have the time to invest in such play to skill games but want to play them at their own pace and schedule. While purchasing those skills might seem to be the answer, it sorely is disappointing to those that would rather do it for real. In fact, I would say that many players have quit games out of frustration from both camps; one for not being able to purchase skills and the other for not wanting to compete against deeper pockets.
What would I do? One thing is for sure, I would not have a cash shop of any kind. I would try to give a good balanced game that is worth every dollar of subscription fee. If I could not do that, I will go out of business.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Skill gaining is moot, as we already had it explain several times in this thread as it is automated. And why would anyone ever need to buy a skills when you can buy a slot, park it for a few months and pick up a skill guide when you decide to come back that EvE players provide for free on official forums?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Then we both see eye to eye on how you perceive casuals
Often people try to find fault when their own stance is questioned. I then ask you to replace money with time and you have your fit, so to speak.
What is fun is such a finicky word. I prefer using the term enjoyment now. And how could you increase your level of enjoyment while lowering mine? How could you even begin to measure what I or anyone else enjoys?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Lets make a list the advantages & cons of going F2P in the case of EVE:
The advantages:
- free
- More accessible content
- More PVP
- More competitive from the get go
- You're more in control of "when"
- It fits the lore. ( being jack up & all & that, knowledge being downloaded, not learned)
The cons:
- Someone can buy all the skills ( Which do what exactly... whats the problem here? You still can compete against that dude in any single field of expertise for way cheaper.)
-------------------------------
Please help me fill this list up. XD
Edited to ad to the list
Roger that.
Well done, OP! You got ten pages of people responding to your trolling.
How is it trolling?
You don't agree = trolling. Gotcha! Now move along. ty
Just being honest here... Not only is this the stupidest idea I've ever heard, but you have also obviously never played the game or you would know this would never work.
Plus you can already buy skills. Buy PLEX --> Use ISK from PLEX to buy a pilot --> You have skills you didnt have before. End.
`Shark
I bet you didn't even read the thread, am I right?
In the end, there's no real better or worse for either model, just two different ways to make revenue I suppose. But remember, the revenue model of an MMORPG greatly influences its game play mechnaics, and in general cash shop model games have proven to be something I don't really care for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"don't have to play in relation to one or more EvE mechanics" doesn't make sense. I mean, I choose if I want to participate in missions, exploration, playing the markets etc. I can also choose not to participate in those aspects of the game. These are player options and not sure why you felt it was worth singling out. As far as it having to do with the OP, grinding entered the conversation after the OP and you chose to discuss it. It is a factor in the difference between time based and action based training so certainly seems related.
Thanks for the edit, not sure it helped much. You are stating a position on real time training, so discussing the alternatives is related to the topic whether you believe them admissible or not.
Going to go with not getting each other. I am responding to how I interpret your statements. Not sure where the straw man is but if you are on a quest to dismiss discussion, by all means I can't stop you from doing so.
Now as far as doing anything, as I said, specialization and interdependency. If you can do it yourself, get a corp mate and work together. It is an MMO after all.
So, we are certainly talking about two different things. I'm talking about an MMO and you seem to be talking about a single-player game.
Joking aside, I have a different view as to the merit of the timed training so sure, I can see how it looks like we are talking about different things when we are actually just coming at it from very different positions.
Anyhow, we're going in circles now. You don't like the system, I get it. I like the system and assume you get that. I hope you enjoy playing what you play and maybe you can lean on the Perpetuum team. That game is young. Maybe they'll see the genius some of us seem to be missing.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Actually I did read the whole thread, and you don't have any idea what you are talking about. It would never work.