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WoW is the ultimate carbon copy machine. They pretty much copied every MMO feature they could fit in the game from every game that preceded them and everything that launched after them. They even copied games before they launched, like WAR achievements. Want to bet that they copied SW:TOR story driven gameplay with Cataclysm? They even copy every single successful addon the community produced.
When you look at this frankenstein copying monster, it's hard not to find similarities with other MMOs. Of course, they are really really good at what they do. But claiming that something copied WoW is claiming that a copier copied the master copier. I'm not even sure if that's a praise or a condemnation.
Hrmm, I had not seen any replies to those posts - because they tended to be pretty long and most people will not bother reading longer posts here. I'll try to hunt it down though.
I only participated in Beta5 and Beta6. Yet something that stood out as a glaring issue was on the Guardian side. When you shatter the Shade, it kills you. There is no warning that it will kill you. I had problems with watching the cutscene, so I generally escaped out of it. It was not until a discussion came up in regard to time travel and that it does not take place with the Guardians, that I sat through the stuttering cutscene to see what they were talking about. Literally until watching that, I had no idea that my character had died. None of the dialogue from any of the NPCs/quests suggested that I had died. It was just a case that I was gone for 20 years. Thus, I had originally believed that Guardians traveled forward in time 20 years while the Defiant traveled back in time 30 years.
It was not the case. I had been dead for 20 years. Prior to shattering the Shade and ending the Mathosian Civil War, it was possible for me to die and return to life in moments. Yet for some reason, I died for 20 years this time. Huh? Ummm, k.
But it goes beyond that as far as things not making sense. So there is this key point in time that both the Guardians and the Defiant see (again, 20 years later for the Guardians and 30 years earlier for the Defiant - though, it is the same point in time - that is how key it is). Putting aside the obvious issues of time travel which would lead one to believe that my coming back as a Guardian 20 years later did not help anything since 30 years after that the Defiant are still trying to send somebody back in time 30 years...whuzzah...we are left with how monumental this key point in time must be for both the Guardians and the Defiant to send somebody back to save Telara, am I right?
So both send level 6 toons? I mean, seriously? This is the key moment! We can save Telara! Send in the level 6 toons!
...or I do not know, have the Guardians bring back the dead 15 years later instead and have the Defiant send folks back 35 years in time. C'mon, give them a few years there to level up so they are ready to take on the task at hand - saving the very planet!
...but no, send in the level 6 toons.
I do not discuss any of this in the game. It would ruin it for me. I focus on what I find fun and try not to think about what I know as a person while playing the character. If it were not for all those decades of playing PnP RPGs, I'm not sure how I would be able to handle it. Cause in the end, I really enjoy RIFT as a game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Then it should be called an EQ Clone, no? They are standard features of MMORPGs that existed before WoW did. WoW should not be given credit for originating the concepts - they did not. Unless we are talking about an exact copy of WoW, there is no such thing as a WoW Clone.
Does RIFT contain common MMORPG standard features? Ayup. Nobody is going to argue that. Nobody argues that. They just get tired of people thinking that WoW created the genre...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
If the quests were more diverse and fun alot of people would find the game alittle more fun, sadly the quests are almost clones of one another it feels like Trion made the Cryptic road to implent quests very much like in STO and thats is the top of boredom.
lvl 1-5: take several quest kill 5 mobs gather 5 trinkets, run to next quest hub.
lvl 5-10: take several quests kill 8 mobs gather 5 trinkets, run to the next hub
10-15; you get the picture.
90% of the quests are almost identical only the mobs and the zone are changed, and that was a turn off for me.
Sometimes just sometimes there were a few fun quests that was fun and somewhat interresting but sadly they were way to few.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I ve never personally said it s a WOW clone. I have however said since WOW why in gods name would anyone try to make a game similar to it. You can t beat WOW, so why even try. Even if you grab some bored WOW players, they ll eventually go back, because they ll realize WOW does it better, and all their time invested in it, will factor in.
But you are saying that it is similar to WoW, but then it is similar to EQ,EQ2,DDO, ad nauseum... WoW may have the most subscribers and largest population but they had to make it stupid proof to get there. The game is so easy, my grandkids can play the damn thing and they can barely read. I have to read the quest text and they run off and do the deed.. lol its funny as hell.
WoW can be beaten quite easily , but it would take a lot of time and why bother, do we really want another KISS-MMO? And as far as population concern, they can keep all the pre-teens and kiddos there. Because if I wanted to hang out with them, I would play WoW..
Now a thought driven game that takes time with sandbox skills structure, with out the same ol'boring quests...for the love of GOD PLEASE!!! MAKE IT NOW!
LOL all kidding aside, until something like that comes along, I will be playing DDO, EVE and Rift and yes when my G-Kids beg enough I will even play some WoW...(kill me now god!)
You know you are old when the dev's on the games you play are almost young enough to be your grand-kids.
I think if all you do in any MMO is the same thing over and over, you will get bored no matter what game it is.
Grinding mobs - boring after a while.
Grinding through quests/missions - boring after a while.
Grinding through dungeons - boring after a while.
Grinding through crafting - boring after a while.
Grinding through exploration - boring after a while.
Grinding through PvP - boring after a while.
Grinding through Rifts - boring after a while.
Grinding through Invasions - boring after a while.
They say variety is the spice of life, and a game is only as spicy as you make it - i.e. if the game offers a variety of paths and you choose to stick soley to a single path, you have no one to blame but yourself for boredom.
Mix things up a bit.
I always use the rule that these games are much more fun when played with other people. Trion apparently agrees as they made questing in a group to be just as fast and efficient as doing it solo, in some ways it's easier and I am of the opinion it is much more fun.
Without looking at reason Z, the why for X of Y...
Guardian:
Kill X of Y.
Kill X of Y. Retrieve X of Y.
Kill X of Y. Destroy X of Y.
Activate X. Kill X of Y.
Destroy X of Y. Kill X of Y and X of Y.
Kill X of Y to use X of Y.
Use X and Defend X. Kill X of Y and X of Y.
Kill X of Y to retrieve X of Y. Destroy X, kill X, and kill X.
Kill X of Y to use X of Y to destroy X of Y and X of Y. Kill X to retrieve X.
Chain kill X (X of Y) to use X. DIE.
Talk to X of Y.
Talk to X of Y.
Retrieve X and use X.
Retrieve X and use X.
Talk to X.
Destroy X of Y. Kill X of Y. Use X of Y.
Kill X of Y. Use X of Y. Use X. Return X to X.
Talk to X.
Kill X of Y. Destroy X of Y to retrieve X of Y. Retrieve X of Y.
Use X of Y. Kill X of Y and X of Y.
...etc, etc, etc.
Defiant:
Kill X of Y.
Use X of Y.
Kill X of Y and X of Y. Retrieve X of Y.
Activate X. Kill X of Y. Retrieve X of Y (three variants based on race).
Activate X and kill X. Kill X of Y and X of Y.
Talk to X.
Use X and then use X. Kill X to use X.
Use X.
Kill X of Y to retrieve X of Y. Kill X of Y to retrieve X of Y.
Follow X.
Talk to X. Chain kill X (X of Y). TIME TRAVEL.
Talk to X.
Use X.
Talk to X of Y. Use X.
Destroy X of Y. Kill X of Y. Kill X of Y to retrieve X of Y.
Talk to X.
Talk to X. Kill X of Y and X of Y.
Retrieve X of Y. Kill X of Y to retrieve X of Y.
...etc, etc, etc.
You know, if I was just looking at it like that - I could see where one might get bored...possibly. However, there is generally a very good Z to all of those X's of Y's.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Agreed, I actually think that Rifts quest are step backwards in questing. Not only do they have this boring structure you speak of, but there is no life in the quests, there has been absolutely zero quests that make me actually want to read the quests. You do nothing that it out of place to make you go "cool" or "why?" or "omg that's horrible!" I leveled 20 and the most memorable NPC for me was the Vendor Fish person in Silverwood, because it was so weird that you were killing all these fish people and there was this friendly fish person vendor in the middle of it. At almost every non-large quest hub there are 3 quest givers, about 2 other NPCs and they all are just standing there around a stone thing on the ground, doing nothing interesting.
Actually there was one quest that made me go: "hmm" and it was the one were you change the Elementals into there opposites
-I want a Platformer MMO
So because Blizzard made WoW, nobody else should bother trying to make a MMORPG?
Only if Blizzard actually does something better will people return because WoW does it better - what they do better is highly subjective and a matter of opinion.
The time investment is a factor in why WoW is still around - people have spent years on their characters, developing relationships with other players, etc. It is easy to understand how one would not want to "throw" that away to pursue another game...regardless of the quality of the game in comparison to WoW. It is human nature - look at how many people stay in bad marriages for as long as they do...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Aaaaaand the very good Z is...? honestly, there is a reason most people don't read quest text. Basically, people wan't to play the game instead of reading lots of quest text. Seeing as how it is easy to just skip the Z of the quest and do the X and Y, I don't blame people for skipping quest text either.
However, maybe learning what X and Y are could help in that...nope...I don't see the point in fighting random low level enemies...or any of that random stuff, at least until the time traveling part for defiant. After that its like I am fighting some war and who the enemy is is unimportant. Everything is my enemy.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Sure WOW doing it better is highly subjective, but I said why try and copy it, not make an MMO. It s stupid to try and jump on anything WOW has done, because WOW won t lose. WOW is a once in a million thing, I don t even like WOW, but you can t compete with it. Try and go outside the box, not the same boring fed ex quests with a little twist like Rifts are. I truly thought Rifts were going to be a great thing and IMO, they are truly boring after a few times. The game outside that and a soul system that is truly a glorified talent tree isn t enough. Have world pvp like frontiers, fight over castles, have 3 factions not 2, give meaning to pvp outside stupid currency to buy gear. I know this may be fun for some people, but I m saying in the long run this formula is directly competing with WOW and it s not smart IMO.
There was a merchant by the side of the road. He claimed that he he had something good to give me. He said he had his stash of things a bit further up. I followed him out of curiosity and an almost certainty that he was up to something. When we reached the supposedly spot that he had his stash, he searched around and claimed that it was stolen. Then when I was about to leave he turned into a demon and attacked me. I killed him and got some good blue out of his body.
There was no quest marker, just a text bubble with him saying what he said. If I had ignored him, I wouldn't have seen anything.
Are we by now preprogrammed to follow the quest marker only and ignore everything else? Is that why GW2 developers were forced to use quest markers for their events?
I did not have this feel at all. For both the Guardians and the Defiant before dying or time traveling, I enjoyed the nuances of that shift from being on the defense to taking a more offensive role. I liked the urgency on the Defiant side and the feel that the world was coming to an end. I liked the sense of action on the Guardian side leading up what I did not realize at first was the sacrifice the character was making.
Once in the "present time" (or future or past depending on how look at it), I enjoyed that the conflict was right there...not some sleepy little camp with the fight down the road. I liked that it felt the quests had meaning and it was not simply a case of grabbing the book off the table for the guy sitting next to the table.
It just goes to show how two people can experience the same events yet come away with very distinct thoughts and reflections upon those events I suppose...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
As you are partaking in that second step for the Guardian side, killing X of Y - the Y's are knocking on doors and running around killing friendly NPCs. They are not just stumbling around a field waiting for you to come kill them. For that first kill X of Y on the Defiant side, the enemy NPCs are attacking the base as well as running around attacking friendly NPCs. For the follow up use X of Y, you are activating the machines to help kill the enemy NPCs...staving off the attack on the base and defending friendly NPCs.
Many of the quests are very active in this sense as opposed to go to Monster Farm A to Kill X of Y. It is active rather than passive.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Some people get tired faster than others.
I barely made it to level 20. And mind you, I didn't enjoy it. I just forced myself to give the game a fair chance but level 20 is as far as I go. I am not a person who goes about analysing a game to critically evaluate it. I just play it and see if I have fun or not. I don't care if it's original, copycat or whatever. As long as I am having fun, I will play it.
However, Rift didn't give me any enjoyment. It might be very similar to WoW, War and/or EQ but hell was it boring. War was fairly ok but rift feels grindy. I never felt like I was grinding while playing WoW even though the quests were nothing more than kill, fetch etc. I guess I was much more interested in the story.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Just want to comment on the OP. When I played beta 6, all I did was the RIFT system. Sure some of the RIFTS were the same but not all. Me a level 30 rogue, and a level 22 cleric were RIFT jumping and found several different types of rifts. Take for instance the fire RIFTS. We encountered 4 diff versions varing from all solo, ones that started out solo but spawned elites at the end, to ones that only spawned elites, to ones the spawned a named mob and solo mobs at each level. The dynamics isnt in were they spawn, but how they spawn. Also noted that higher level ones can spawn raid mobs and raid invasions as stated by the developers. Some of it has to do with the amount of people in the area and the level. So in fact they are dynamic. Just wanted to point that small little fact out to you. Cheers!
Because it is not copying WoW. It is using standard MMORPG features that believe it or not, some people actually enjoy. They may enjoy those standard features but not want to play WoW for whatever reason that they choose. It could be because of graphics, it could be because of the class system, it could be because of two factions, it could be because of a plethora of reasons.
By your argument, there is no reason for Toyota to make cars since Honda does. There is no reason for Vizio to make TVs since Sony does. There is no reason for Barnes & Noble to come out with an eBook reader since Amazon had one. There is no reason to have more than one of anything...
...and that just does not make sense.
You do not like the standard game. You want a different type of game. Groovy. Fine. RIFT is not your candy of choice. RIFT never claimed that it was going to be your candy of choice. Getting upset because they decided to make the game that they and many people wanted instead of making the game that you wanted...is kind of ridiculous. Should I go complain to Papa John's because they deliver pizza like Domino's and I really wish they had decided to deliver hamburgers and fries instead?
I really wish that WoW had been more like Shadowbane and EVE. I did not complain that Blizzard should not have made WoW because we already had EQ though.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Outside of the beginner area, every single enemy you kill is out in some field somwhere, every single one is really passive. The events and rifts aren't passive, the quest are. I leveled to 6 on the defiants, and 20 on the Guardians, and unless they made the questing vastly superior for the Defiants, I haven't seen any active quests outside of the beginner areas.
-I want a Platformer MMO
Just wait until an invasion comes by and the quest givers and merchants and npc's "standing around doing nothing" are slaughtered without mercy unless you, the player, defends them.
Because if you don't, kind of hard to turn your quests in if the quest givers are all dead.
Does it "force" you to participate in invasions?
Yes, unless you want to wait around for someone else to clear out the foothold.
But with the open group system, it's usually fairly quick and easy to retake a single quest hub... unless of course it's a massive invasion event when an entire army of Elites is marching down on a quest hub...
In that case, usually takes a full Raid of players to even stand a chance.
Dynamic? Maybe a bit.
Random? A little, sure.
Boring? Entirely subjective.
More annoyance then solid game play addition? Again, entirely subjective. I think it's great. It's fresh.
Kind of reminds me of the random monster invasions UO used to have in Brittania. Chilling out by the bank, all of a sudden a massive force of liches and beholders pours into the city slaughtering everything they can.
Good times!
You re missing my point. Since WOW games have tried to copy it, none have succeeded. Making a game very similar to it, doesn t work anymore. Things need to be more then just different. I know it s the standard MMO formula, but I actually do enjoy a couple of the standard MMO formula games out there now. So I don t dislike the standard game. I dislike every game being basically the same as WOW, because of it s success. Rift is so close to WOW it isn t even funny. Same quests, same pvp, same talent trees, granted i ll give Rift an A for effort for trying to make it different. In reality it isn t much different at all. The rifts themselves , as I ve said before, really are the only thing different, and IMO are an absolute annoyance after a few times.
You know this is what I just was talking about in another thread. I said what rift is going to be OMG so much fun like it was at 7-15, then 25, then 35, then 45? I said people in beta were already just standing as a new rift open or running away from them because it was just way to many..
Dont get mad at the OP just think about .. Your 1st few rifts where great.. but nothing changes.. your 15 rift was just like your 1st one..
They respawn pretty quickly after the invasion has been stopped almost instantly in some cases.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Rift has similar UI to WoW, quest mechanics that resemble the philosophy of TBC or earlier (or LOTRO or Aion etc.) and similar combat mechanics. The similarities end there.
PvP is different, WoW has no world PvP, it died with flying mounts and arena-like instanced gameplay. The soul system is nothing like WoW, especially the way Cataclysm is boxing players into one specific tree, i'ts actually quite the opposite promoting diversity and hybrid builds instead of homogenisation. Rifts themselves are of course something not found (well, until they copy it) in WoW.
The more you play the game, the more you spot the glaring differences. The games are similar only to those who can't let go of the way they got used to play. You can read about them even now, complaining about flying mounts, too many souls and other things that would actually be detrimental to the game if implemented.
I'm afraid I'm not missing your point. Name a game that copies WoW. Can you? No, you cannot. There is a thread on the origins of various MMORPG concepts here. Guess how many times WoW comes up as originating any of the concepts?
Nobody is copying WoW. Claiming that they are...is pointless.
You claim that RIFT has the same quests as WoW. You mean the same quests we had before the internet?
You claim that RIFT has the same PvP as WoW. Again, the same PvP we have had since before the internet?
I have no idea how you think that RIFT has the same talent trees as WoW - but again, we had subclasses and specialization before the internet.
Games have come out since WoW and they have failed for various reasons - technical glitches, failure to deliver promisables, bad marketing, bad graphics, bad programming, etc, etc, etc.
Blizzard's success with WoW can be directly attributed to an already thriving fanbase from Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo. They did not come into the gaming world with nothing under their belt. They had a thriving population waiting. The development path of the game has attempted to cater to the masses - trying to lure in both the casual and the hardcore. This has cost them some, but it has also made the game "more available" to generate the numbers of players they have. In regard to that, even Blizzard heavily footnotes their sub numbers to state that it includes those with active accounts that pay by the hour, etc. They do not have that many people all paying a monthly subscription.
WoW was not revolutionary when it came out. It was evolutionary. Most revolutionary games fail. They either fail to satisfy their niche or their niche fails to pay the bills. RIFT is not revolutionary, but it is definitely evolutionary. Players from many different games see things in RIFT that they are familiar with...and many of them see those features that are missing from their games. On top of that, many people state this is the best beta they have ever participated in...meaning that the technical glitches that have plagued other games are unlikely. RIFT has not made any extreme promises - so there is nothing there to let players down.
Is RIFT going to be for everybody? Of course not...but it sure as Hell is for me at this point in time.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%