A little of all of the above. Really pvp in mmorpg has always be piss poor because combat in general in mmorpgs is about time spent playing (leveling and gear farming) and in some cases helper programs downloaded then actual skill.
Well someone could disagree with me and tell me that "pvp isn't dying" but we all see how pvp is always an afterthought in the majority of mmorpg companies.Every game that comes out or any older one that tries to maintain its player base focuses mainly on PVE aspects.Even games that were created mainly for PvP eventually do that.
So for the ones that agree with me pls answer the poll. Anyone who doesn't feel that PVP is second rated by developers pls disagree in another post.
Are we pretending it hasn't always been an afterthought in 95% of MMORPGs that've ever been released?
The reason it happens is:
MMORPGs are not good PVP vehicles. Fundamentally.
PVE is more popular.
How is PvE more popular when their subscribers to them have left in droves post-launch?
WoW, Lineage, Runescape have millions of subscribers and consist of game-play that is no more pve active than pvp; they each have their own mix or emphasis of heavy pve, heavy pvp or sandboxy nature.
Yet not one theme-parkish heavy-pve mmorpg since them has been able to sustain more than 200k-300k subscribers 6-months to a year-out following a mass exodus from million(s) of box sales.
And again, FFXI and Aion are the exceptions with each having a pve and pvp heavy game-play incorporation, though with a large Asian audience.
Is there an attempt to push-forth a conspiracy Im not aware of?
I think you missed a big one; "Because consequence-less PvP has come to dominate the market and many non-persistant games offer better "match" style PvP than any MMO ever will"
QFT
Eric hit it out of the park with that one.
LOCO, LoL, Bloodline Champions, Crossfire, Combat Arms, AVA, or any number of the online RTS and FPS games over the past few years allow you to jump into relatively evenly-matched PVP - no mindless three-month rat-bashing exercise required prior to doing so.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
pvp can (and does) get boring - at least for me. I like pvp but most games sadly just turn it into another rep grind (I hate rep grinding - even if it offers rewards)
If players had a chance to randomly drop nice loot when killed I think that would keep me more interested in pvp. Warhammer did this but the drops were pretty rare (and not that great).
It has always been like this. Very few games have been specifically designed with PvP in mind. GW2 will be the next game with good PvP. It is not open world PvP but luckily I don't care much for open world PvP. It can die out for all I care.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Why pay a sub, grind levels and skills, grind gear, and then pvp when you can pay your $50 and have a great pvp game out of the box with millions of people to play?
because they don't and they aren't... any fps game you get on a console will be a watered down version.. and.. they're not able to compete with PC players. im sure i don't have to repeat the fact that in all cases, the PC user had a distinct advantage over the console player due to game pad limitations in FPS.. and .. the biggest problem with pvp on consoles is.. their crap... what is the best they can handle .. 8 v 8.. boooring.. why do you think after all these years, Counter Strike is still the biggest FPS PVP game in existance.. because its not limited to a small player environment..for just a couple of players. and. Counterstrike.. no sub.. no grind.. no problem... and the other huge problem with console games.. is that their sooooo freakin expensive.. why do they cost twice as much as the PC versions ? and still manage to have less content ?
Um, what are you talking about? Between console and pc, the console based pvp in FPS far outpaces any mmorpg's numbers. Not just daily, but every day of the week, every day of the year, for how long? Years. Just because the PC version is "better" means nothing, people go elsewhere for their pvp vs going into an mmo. Heck, more people play RTS for PvP than mmos.
I was not talking PC VS Console, I was talking PC PLUS Console playing pvp. I also mentioned nothing about cross-platform, as you are correct: key + mouse has wiped controller in every competition except one.
PS: Correct punctuation can help you form a coherent discussion. Oh, and "their" =/= "they're"
All that does is drive away the PVE players who THOUGHT they wanted to pvp. that doesnt make real pvpers leave a game.
PVP seems dead because games these days just arnt made for real pvp. all you have is carebear crap like wow battlegrounds were a bunch of PVEers can get together and play nice with their even teams and slap each other on the ass and say good game after.
pvp has become pussyfied and now we have a bunch of carebears thinking they are pvpers and when they join a real game and they get ganked and destroyed they cry and whine how its not fair and everybody is a coward then quit.
Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others. No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one. Persistent lying or stealing. Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others. Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally Poor behavioral controls expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert). Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others). Disregard for personal safety May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others. Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible). Does feel pleasure when controlling others. Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years. In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).
For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence?
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).
For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence?
LOL let me translate this.
He was questing got ganked probably talked trash to them because they ganked him. got ganked again and again Rage quit and now all PVPers are sociopaths.
The best pvp game i've ever played was Shadowbane.. hands down no question about it.
The idea of the game was great and at times was very fun, but it failed pretty quickly because of shitty servers and immense cheating. Wolf pack had a great idea of a game and UBI bought it from them, but when UBI went in to clean the game up they saw how crappy of a job WP did constructing it's servers so they just scrapped it.
I think there is an Shadowbane emulator being made by a pretty nice size group of ex players.
Are we pretending it hasn't always been an afterthought in 95% of MMORPGs that've ever been released?
The reason it happens is:
MMORPGs are not good PVP vehicles. Fundamentally.
PVE is more popular.
How is PvE more popular when their subscribers to them have left in droves post-launch?
WoW, Lineage, Runescape have millions of subscribers and consist of game-play that is no more pve active than pvp; they each have their own mix or emphasis of heavy pve, heavy pvp or sandboxy nature.
Yet not one theme-parkish heavy-pve mmorpg since them has been able to sustain more than 200k-300k subscribers 6-months to a year-out following a mass exodus from million(s) of box sales.
And again, FFXI and Aion are the exceptions with each having a pve and pvp heavy game-play incorporation, though with a large Asian audience.
Is there an attempt to push-forth a conspiracy Im not aware of?
It's not a conspiracy; just an obvious trait of the industry. Look back over the course of the videogame industry and you'll see it's very clear that non-PVP games outsell PVP ones by a healthy margin.
We're not talking about whether PVP can be more popular in an individual PVP-focused game (it obviously can: DAOC/Planetside), or even a PVP-focused genre (it obviously can: fighting games.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The OP is a tad biased imo, you can tell by the poll choices. PvP isn't dying, the largest MMO's on the market today all have some sort of PvP in their games. The problem with PvP is how the genre has not been able to reproduce what DAOC did with 3 realms and a very very good RvR system. Once you've experienced DAOC, the other instanced PvP and PvP-wanna be games are less satisfying. This doesn't mean other games aren't good, they are. But they usually make up the slack elsewhere.
So if I have to pick a poll choice, the most important one would be the mechanics of PvP, and how other games today just haven't been able to reproduce DAOC-style massive RvR. Not even EA Mythic could reproduce it with WAR. You OP did a boo boo by not having possibly the most important choice in this poll, which is the actual mechanics of today's PvP games. The PvP mechanics in today's MMO are just lacking. If you weren't around during AC1's prime, DAOC's prime, or even EQ's zek servers prime years, then you really haven't experienced the good parts of PvP/RvR imo.
Take a look at fun PvP games we used to have back in the days. Asheron's Call 1, it was by accident that Darktide turned out to be one of the best FFA PvP experiences in the early genre. It was by accident that the game was and still is one of the very few MMO's that utilized FPS-style gameplay.
Also DAOC, the game that started the 3 factions, realm vs realm combat in MMO genre. It took them awhile to master but I think most can agree, it was fun. It didn't matter if you were casual or hardcore, you had a place in the RvR. You could defend castles, you could roll with a zerg, you could run with a gank group, you could solo stealth gank, you could play in a persistent battleground based on your level, you could earn points by participating various things. The whole relics system was cool, the darkness falls dungeon where your realm had to take castles to open was cool. The ladder to work up your realm ranks and the abilities you could get from it was cool. You just don't see that sort of dedication to PvP in the MMO's today.
Edit: And after reading a bit more, I guess the poll is really asking why the developers are moving away from PvP. For that, it's simply because companies are trying to mass market now, and mass market means creating games that more people can play. They focus on quantity rather than individuals. Gone are the days of winners and losers, because today they want everybody to be winners. This is a movement not only in MMO's but in rl. Unfortunately in PvP, you always have a loser, and well people just don't know how to lose gracefully anymore. Creating PvE makes it easy for developers to make people happy. Happy customers stay subscribed.
In some games its almost dead, some games really never had it and in a few its still great. Im not going to go into detali about Eve, cause you obvious dont care for it. But in general you will need a game built around the pvp part, for the most games this is not the case, PvP is not going to sell to the general mmo player. Wow would not be where it was if its main focus was pvp.
You just have to come to terms with the fact that pvp is like sandbox, you wont see it as main in any large games, best you can hope is that new small niche games comes out that caters to the pvp community, and can grow into something more based on that.
DAoC Baby! The next game that takes lessons from what should be THE seminal MMo, will be a huge hit. Lets not forget, until WoW came along, DAoC was the king of MMOS. They did some stuff like TOA that killed it for a lot of people, but it was still the best game.
People only think that everyone wants WoW, cause that is all they have been giving us for the last 7 years.
With the DAoC system there is no reason to have a split between pvp'ers and pve'ers. You can have both. Why wouldnt you want to cater to both audiences?
The current implementation of PVP in most games is yet again more WoW. Yep most people dont like getting ganked by higher level players, or getting ganked while they are doing PVE. I know i dont. Thats why seperate PVP zones make so much sense.
Instanced PVP is only moderately more fun than instanced dungeons, still better than leveling doing quests, but not something we should ever be doing at 50.
Can anyone name a AAA MMO that came out since WoW that wasnt based on WoW? By like Wow, i mean with instanced dungeons and quest leveling and gear grinding. Although usually the games are graphically similar as well.
Its like going to the grocery, and the only thing they have is potatoes, and so naturally rather than starve, everyone buys potatoes, and then correlating that to the fact that all anyone ever wants to eat is potatoes. Im willing to bet that if you added some other vegetables they would buy them, some people might be so tired of potatoes, they would stop eating them altogether.
But there would be other people who are just too lazy to learn how to cook anything else, and they would just keep buying potatoes.
The current state of PvP, or as so many of the less mentally capable gamers out there type "St8". Is that the PvP community has always been a very VOCAL minority in the MMORPG market. Most of the gamers out there are part of the mindless masses that enjoy being lead around in a story board world. While this isnt a bad thing, its not a great thing either. I myself am not a HUGE pvper, but I do see the value in it. But the problem is most of the younger, (Mentally or physically) gamers out there dont know where to draw the line, between pvping or griefing.
That is where the problem is. Most developers now are seeing this, this why few if any major companies have ventured to make a decent open world sandbox game. This has been left to the indie market, unfortunately this too has killed the pvp market too. As decent pvp only games have also been left lacking. They are either REALLY pretty, but have crap gameplay or are so buggy or riddled with hacks that they arent worth playing, let alone paying for. Or the are so ugly that no one wants to bother playing something that looks 15 years old and pay for it.
Then you look at the shoebox FPS/PvP games, like Mount & Blade: Warband, or COD4MW2, ArmA2, or any of the dozen others out there. They are pretty cheap to buy, have no subscription fees, and are generally well made, and look good. Why should I pay for a PvP game like Global Agenda or Mortal Online, when I can play any of the dozen or so other shoebox games that fill that void nicely. And I can play with other people in ALL of those games too.
So again its not that PvP is dieing, it is just changing.
I'm going to be the guy, or at least one of the guys, who disagrees with you. Just because PvP isn't the top priority in most games does not mean it's dying. It's just not the top priority. Designing a video game isn't about triage. Most people aren't interested, which sucks because personally I enjoy PvP, but I can also find PvP on every MMO (or at least I've never heard of a PvP-less MMO). That says something, specifically that it's alive and doing alright. The fact that it's not the first concern is not that big of a deal. Posts like this one are part of what give PvPers a bad name. You complain about PvP "dieing" when every new MMO dedicates forums and developer time to PvP concerns in games that have large amounts of PvE content as well. Quit complaining that the world isn't exactly how you want it to be and go out and kill somebody in PvP instead. It's great stress relief.
Well someone could disagree with me and tell me that "pvp isn't dying" but we all see how pvp is always an afterthought in the majority of mmorpg companies.Every game that comes out or any older one that tries to maintain its player base focuses mainly on PVE aspects.Even games that were created mainly for PvP eventually do that.
So for the ones that agree with me pls answer the poll. Anyone who doesn't feel that PVP is second rated by developers pls disagree in another post.
Actually all your choices are incorrect.
The real reasons are:
1. Companies are trying to navigate away from PvP because they realize that they will never be able to stop the PvPers from scripting , (what they are using to hack the game to gain the advantage over others, not the same as macroing, scripting is much more powerful for the honest gamers who do not know this)
2. Many people are burned out with mmorpg's not just with PvP but the same formula different story, nothing new.
3. Gamers are leaving the mmorpg genre and playing other games due to burn out of the same theme as mentioned above.
Those 3 are the real top reasons, thought I help you out there as you were not even close. Also there is no indication of what you say is even true. The subscription base on some mmorpg's remain the same so not sure where you are getting your facts from. However if it were these would be the reasons.
I think you missed a big one; "Because consequence-less PvP has come to dominate the market and many non-persistant games offer better "match" style PvP than any MMO ever will"
Haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I have to agree with post #2 above. If MMOs are going to instance off PVP into battlegrounds, I'd rather go play CoD to be honest.
PVP in MMOs should have meaning, ishould have persistant impacts, and should fit into the MMO world itself. MMOs are losing gamers like me as they give up on open world PVP.
My prediction is that the FPS developers will take over the MMO space, at least regarding the competetive PVP crowd, when they start coming out with their own MMOs. Traditional MMORPG developers are really heading the wrong way regarding PVP, and probably have given up on making it fun anymore...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
PvP is dying because there are more PvE'ers than PvPers, they are more stable and griefing/ganging drives them away en masse. If a game has open PvP then the majority of players (the PvE'ers) go to a more attractive MMO where they can play on their own time and interact socially only when they have the time/inclination to do so.
See what I did there?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
This is partially true. In my last post i said that pvp is becoming trendy, therefore you see that 90% of players that call themselves pvpers have no idea how to actually play their class...
Thats mostly due to the fact that pvp is hardcore to masses, and by beiing a pvper is makes them feel hardcore therefore awesome for them... And since 90% of the earth sucks and need buyable methods to boost their ego pvp is more effective than pve in doing that even though pvp sometimes shows them how much they suck(but they can always blame luck...)
PvP is dying because there are more PvE'ers than PvPers, they are more stable and griefing/ganging drives them away en masse. If a game has open PvP then the majority of players (the PvE'ers) go to a more attractive MMO where they can play on their own time and interact socially only when they have the time/inclination to do so.
See what I did there?
I don't doubt there are a lot of PVE'ers and that they may be driven from a PVP MMO.
But I would argue that the number of PVP'ers is just as large if not larger, but instead of being driven into other MMOs (good PVP MMOs do not really exist right now IMO) they are amassing into the FPS games such as CoD instead. The 10's of millions that play FPS PVP would LOVE a great FPS based MMO, but it simply doesn't exist yet. But they are on the way and I predict a well made AAA title FPS MMO will have more subscribers than any other MMO on the market except possibly WoW (but it would be close).
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
PvP is dying because the game designer doesn't know what to do. Their designs either result with unbalanced griefing/ganking and/or arcade style shooter type matches (e.g.e deathmatch, team deathmatch, capture and hold, etc). These designers are missing a few important elements when considering to support PvP, and that is:
Players need a reason to kill or not to kill.
Players need to face some type of consequence after their chosen action.
The consequence should affect something related to each character involved in the future.
PvP is dying because after DAoC and Planetside there was no incentive to do it.
Insead of putting you in an open battlefield with hundreds of players fighting for control of castles and keeps, players were put in instanced arenas that lack every and all feel of realm pride and realm wide benefits. Instead we are left chasing numbers and colors in an eternal grind.
Instanced PvP is C-R-A-P, there is no point in playing a MASSIVELY multiplayer game when the feeling of a persitant world is gone. Why would I pay a subscription fee for something I can get for a single fee.
The good thing about DAoC was that the PvP was in the frontiers, you went there to PvP. In isolating the PvP into 3 big zones you never had to deal with gankers and griefers. Not to mention that the feeling of duking it out in large scale battles was simply epic.
So unless someone comes up with a way to create PvP the same way that DAoC did with todays apparently crappy technology, we might just say goodbye to PvP as a whole in MMO's.
Comments
A little of all of the above. Really pvp in mmorpg has always be piss poor because combat in general in mmorpgs is about time spent playing (leveling and gear farming) and in some cases helper programs downloaded then actual skill.
How is PvE more popular when their subscribers to them have left in droves post-launch?
WoW, Lineage, Runescape have millions of subscribers and consist of game-play that is no more pve active than pvp; they each have their own mix or emphasis of heavy pve, heavy pvp or sandboxy nature.
Yet not one theme-parkish heavy-pve mmorpg since them has been able to sustain more than 200k-300k subscribers 6-months to a year-out following a mass exodus from million(s) of box sales.
And again, FFXI and Aion are the exceptions with each having a pve and pvp heavy game-play incorporation, though with a large Asian audience.
Is there an attempt to push-forth a conspiracy Im not aware of?
Eric hit it out of the park with that one.
LOCO, LoL, Bloodline Champions, Crossfire, Combat Arms, AVA, or any number of the online RTS and FPS games over the past few years allow you to jump into relatively evenly-matched PVP - no mindless three-month rat-bashing exercise required prior to doing so.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
pvp can (and does) get boring - at least for me. I like pvp but most games sadly just turn it into another rep grind (I hate rep grinding - even if it offers rewards)
If players had a chance to randomly drop nice loot when killed I think that would keep me more interested in pvp. Warhammer did this but the drops were pretty rare (and not that great).
It has always been like this. Very few games have been specifically designed with PvP in mind. GW2 will be the next game with good PvP. It is not open world PvP but luckily I don't care much for open world PvP. It can die out for all I care.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Um, what are you talking about? Between console and pc, the console based pvp in FPS far outpaces any mmorpg's numbers. Not just daily, but every day of the week, every day of the year, for how long? Years. Just because the PC version is "better" means nothing, people go elsewhere for their pvp vs going into an mmo. Heck, more people play RTS for PvP than mmos.
I was not talking PC VS Console, I was talking PC PLUS Console playing pvp. I also mentioned nothing about cross-platform, as you are correct: key + mouse has wiped controller in every competition except one.
PS: Correct punctuation can help you form a coherent discussion. Oh, and "their" =/= "they're"
griefing/ganging drives away the masses - 62.5%
All that does is drive away the PVE players who THOUGHT they wanted to pvp. that doesnt make real pvpers leave a game.
PVP seems dead because games these days just arnt made for real pvp. all you have is carebear crap like wow battlegrounds were a bunch of PVEers can get together and play nice with their even teams and slap each other on the ass and say good game after.
pvp has become pussyfied and now we have a bunch of carebears thinking they are pvpers and when they join a real game and they get ganked and destroyed they cry and whine how its not fair and everybody is a coward then quit.
Does this define a PvPer you know?
Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others.
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).
For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence?
LOL let me translate this.
He was questing got ganked probably talked trash to them because they ganked him. got ganked again and again Rage quit and now all PVPers are sociopaths.
the end
The best pvp game i've ever played was Shadowbane.. hands down no question about it.
The idea of the game was great and at times was very fun, but it failed pretty quickly because of shitty servers and immense cheating. Wolf pack had a great idea of a game and UBI bought it from them, but when UBI went in to clean the game up they saw how crappy of a job WP did constructing it's servers so they just scrapped it.
I think there is an Shadowbane emulator being made by a pretty nice size group of ex players.
It's not a conspiracy; just an obvious trait of the industry. Look back over the course of the videogame industry and you'll see it's very clear that non-PVP games outsell PVP ones by a healthy margin.
We're not talking about whether PVP can be more popular in an individual PVP-focused game (it obviously can: DAOC/Planetside), or even a PVP-focused genre (it obviously can: fighting games.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The OP is a tad biased imo, you can tell by the poll choices. PvP isn't dying, the largest MMO's on the market today all have some sort of PvP in their games. The problem with PvP is how the genre has not been able to reproduce what DAOC did with 3 realms and a very very good RvR system. Once you've experienced DAOC, the other instanced PvP and PvP-wanna be games are less satisfying. This doesn't mean other games aren't good, they are. But they usually make up the slack elsewhere.
So if I have to pick a poll choice, the most important one would be the mechanics of PvP, and how other games today just haven't been able to reproduce DAOC-style massive RvR. Not even EA Mythic could reproduce it with WAR. You OP did a boo boo by not having possibly the most important choice in this poll, which is the actual mechanics of today's PvP games. The PvP mechanics in today's MMO are just lacking. If you weren't around during AC1's prime, DAOC's prime, or even EQ's zek servers prime years, then you really haven't experienced the good parts of PvP/RvR imo.
Take a look at fun PvP games we used to have back in the days. Asheron's Call 1, it was by accident that Darktide turned out to be one of the best FFA PvP experiences in the early genre. It was by accident that the game was and still is one of the very few MMO's that utilized FPS-style gameplay.
Also DAOC, the game that started the 3 factions, realm vs realm combat in MMO genre. It took them awhile to master but I think most can agree, it was fun. It didn't matter if you were casual or hardcore, you had a place in the RvR. You could defend castles, you could roll with a zerg, you could run with a gank group, you could solo stealth gank, you could play in a persistent battleground based on your level, you could earn points by participating various things. The whole relics system was cool, the darkness falls dungeon where your realm had to take castles to open was cool. The ladder to work up your realm ranks and the abilities you could get from it was cool. You just don't see that sort of dedication to PvP in the MMO's today.
Edit: And after reading a bit more, I guess the poll is really asking why the developers are moving away from PvP. For that, it's simply because companies are trying to mass market now, and mass market means creating games that more people can play. They focus on quantity rather than individuals. Gone are the days of winners and losers, because today they want everybody to be winners. This is a movement not only in MMO's but in rl. Unfortunately in PvP, you always have a loser, and well people just don't know how to lose gracefully anymore. Creating PvE makes it easy for developers to make people happy. Happy customers stay subscribed.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
In some games its almost dead, some games really never had it and in a few its still great. Im not going to go into detali about Eve, cause you obvious dont care for it. But in general you will need a game built around the pvp part, for the most games this is not the case, PvP is not going to sell to the general mmo player. Wow would not be where it was if its main focus was pvp.
You just have to come to terms with the fact that pvp is like sandbox, you wont see it as main in any large games, best you can hope is that new small niche games comes out that caters to the pvp community, and can grow into something more based on that.
DAoC Baby! The next game that takes lessons from what should be THE seminal MMo, will be a huge hit. Lets not forget, until WoW came along, DAoC was the king of MMOS. They did some stuff like TOA that killed it for a lot of people, but it was still the best game.
People only think that everyone wants WoW, cause that is all they have been giving us for the last 7 years.
With the DAoC system there is no reason to have a split between pvp'ers and pve'ers. You can have both. Why wouldnt you want to cater to both audiences?
The current implementation of PVP in most games is yet again more WoW. Yep most people dont like getting ganked by higher level players, or getting ganked while they are doing PVE. I know i dont. Thats why seperate PVP zones make so much sense.
Instanced PVP is only moderately more fun than instanced dungeons, still better than leveling doing quests, but not something we should ever be doing at 50.
Can anyone name a AAA MMO that came out since WoW that wasnt based on WoW? By like Wow, i mean with instanced dungeons and quest leveling and gear grinding. Although usually the games are graphically similar as well.
Its like going to the grocery, and the only thing they have is potatoes, and so naturally rather than starve, everyone buys potatoes, and then correlating that to the fact that all anyone ever wants to eat is potatoes. Im willing to bet that if you added some other vegetables they would buy them, some people might be so tired of potatoes, they would stop eating them altogether.
But there would be other people who are just too lazy to learn how to cook anything else, and they would just keep buying potatoes.
PvP isnt really dieing. Its changing.
The current state of PvP, or as so many of the less mentally capable gamers out there type "St8". Is that the PvP community has always been a very VOCAL minority in the MMORPG market. Most of the gamers out there are part of the mindless masses that enjoy being lead around in a story board world. While this isnt a bad thing, its not a great thing either. I myself am not a HUGE pvper, but I do see the value in it. But the problem is most of the younger, (Mentally or physically) gamers out there dont know where to draw the line, between pvping or griefing.
That is where the problem is. Most developers now are seeing this, this why few if any major companies have ventured to make a decent open world sandbox game. This has been left to the indie market, unfortunately this too has killed the pvp market too. As decent pvp only games have also been left lacking. They are either REALLY pretty, but have crap gameplay or are so buggy or riddled with hacks that they arent worth playing, let alone paying for. Or the are so ugly that no one wants to bother playing something that looks 15 years old and pay for it.
Then you look at the shoebox FPS/PvP games, like Mount & Blade: Warband, or COD4MW2, ArmA2, or any of the dozen others out there. They are pretty cheap to buy, have no subscription fees, and are generally well made, and look good. Why should I pay for a PvP game like Global Agenda or Mortal Online, when I can play any of the dozen or so other shoebox games that fill that void nicely. And I can play with other people in ALL of those games too.
So again its not that PvP is dieing, it is just changing.
So much crap, so little quality.
I'm going to be the guy, or at least one of the guys, who disagrees with you. Just because PvP isn't the top priority in most games does not mean it's dying. It's just not the top priority. Designing a video game isn't about triage. Most people aren't interested, which sucks because personally I enjoy PvP, but I can also find PvP on every MMO (or at least I've never heard of a PvP-less MMO). That says something, specifically that it's alive and doing alright. The fact that it's not the first concern is not that big of a deal. Posts like this one are part of what give PvPers a bad name. You complain about PvP "dieing" when every new MMO dedicates forums and developer time to PvP concerns in games that have large amounts of PvE content as well. Quit complaining that the world isn't exactly how you want it to be and go out and kill somebody in PvP instead. It's great stress relief.
Actually all your choices are incorrect.
The real reasons are:
1. Companies are trying to navigate away from PvP because they realize that they will never be able to stop the PvPers from scripting , (what they are using to hack the game to gain the advantage over others, not the same as macroing, scripting is much more powerful for the honest gamers who do not know this)
2. Many people are burned out with mmorpg's not just with PvP but the same formula different story, nothing new.
3. Gamers are leaving the mmorpg genre and playing other games due to burn out of the same theme as mentioned above.
Those 3 are the real top reasons, thought I help you out there as you were not even close. Also there is no indication of what you say is even true. The subscription base on some mmorpg's remain the same so not sure where you are getting your facts from. However if it were these would be the reasons.
Haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I have to agree with post #2 above. If MMOs are going to instance off PVP into battlegrounds, I'd rather go play CoD to be honest.
PVP in MMOs should have meaning, ishould have persistant impacts, and should fit into the MMO world itself. MMOs are losing gamers like me as they give up on open world PVP.
My prediction is that the FPS developers will take over the MMO space, at least regarding the competetive PVP crowd, when they start coming out with their own MMOs. Traditional MMORPG developers are really heading the wrong way regarding PVP, and probably have given up on making it fun anymore...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
PvP is dying because there are more PvE'ers than PvPers, they are more stable and griefing/ganging drives them away en masse. If a game has open PvP then the majority of players (the PvE'ers) go to a more attractive MMO where they can play on their own time and interact socially only when they have the time/inclination to do so.
See what I did there?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't think it's dying..... players love PVP
This is partially true. In my last post i said that pvp is becoming trendy, therefore you see that 90% of players that call themselves pvpers have no idea how to actually play their class...
Thats mostly due to the fact that pvp is hardcore to masses, and by beiing a pvper is makes them feel hardcore therefore awesome for them... And since 90% of the earth sucks and need buyable methods to boost their ego pvp is more effective than pve in doing that even though pvp sometimes shows them how much they suck(but they can always blame luck...)
I don't doubt there are a lot of PVE'ers and that they may be driven from a PVP MMO.
But I would argue that the number of PVP'ers is just as large if not larger, but instead of being driven into other MMOs (good PVP MMOs do not really exist right now IMO) they are amassing into the FPS games such as CoD instead. The 10's of millions that play FPS PVP would LOVE a great FPS based MMO, but it simply doesn't exist yet. But they are on the way and I predict a well made AAA title FPS MMO will have more subscribers than any other MMO on the market except possibly WoW (but it would be close).
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
PvP is dying because the game designer doesn't know what to do. Their designs either result with unbalanced griefing/ganking and/or arcade style shooter type matches (e.g.e deathmatch, team deathmatch, capture and hold, etc). These designers are missing a few important elements when considering to support PvP, and that is:
Players need a reason to kill or not to kill.
Players need to face some type of consequence after their chosen action.
The consequence should affect something related to each character involved in the future.
See my blog post and read the PvP section:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/joeballs/052010/6185_The-mosscovered-genre
PvP is dying because after DAoC and Planetside there was no incentive to do it.
Insead of putting you in an open battlefield with hundreds of players fighting for control of castles and keeps, players were put in instanced arenas that lack every and all feel of realm pride and realm wide benefits. Instead we are left chasing numbers and colors in an eternal grind.
Instanced PvP is C-R-A-P, there is no point in playing a MASSIVELY multiplayer game when the feeling of a persitant world is gone. Why would I pay a subscription fee for something I can get for a single fee.
The good thing about DAoC was that the PvP was in the frontiers, you went there to PvP. In isolating the PvP into 3 big zones you never had to deal with gankers and griefers. Not to mention that the feeling of duking it out in large scale battles was simply epic.
So unless someone comes up with a way to create PvP the same way that DAoC did with todays apparently crappy technology, we might just say goodbye to PvP as a whole in MMO's.
PVP doesnt go well with item malls im guessing.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.